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Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by mikece on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:10AM (#33247391)
I still want to know where the USS Jimmy Carter was right before this happened. Undersea espionage and sabotage is one of the specified missions for that boat.
[dead]
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by colpabar on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:26AM (#33247703)
Could you elaborate? We're not all as smart as you :)
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by kranke155 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:38AM (#33247877)
Just read informed commentary instead of conspiracy theories?

1. The US is already selling gas to Europe and there was no sign that would change. Europe has already committed to disinvesting from Russian energy. The pipelines were dead already. The US and others had already captured the market. Increasing the usage of Russian energy again during a bloody war against a neighbouring country would be political suicide for any European country I can think of. Maybe this is not obvious to Americans, and maybe this explains the obsessions with American intervention here - Americans always think their country is behind everything good or bad in the world, which in my mind explains a bit of the “Russia attacked due to NATO” delusional narrative. If anything happened in the world, US must be behind it, military industrial complex blah blah blah.

2. Like other posters here have already mentioned the consensus hunch (and that’s all we have - a hunch) for now is this was a warning to internal competitors in Russian internal politics. This was a way to burn the ships and end any idea that Russia will come back to the West. We are in unrestricted warfare against Russia. If you look into Russian propagandists online, they are 100% behind the idea that America did it to deindustrialise Europe, increase dependency, etc. I regularly follow the rule that whatever Russian propagandists say is higher in likelihood to be false, something which has been demonstrated again and again with - MH270 flight, invasion of Crimea, the killing of Boris Nemtsov, the Skripal poisoning, the invasion of Ukraine, now the usage of Iranian drones (Russia denies ever using them as they rain upon Kyiv).

3. Like others have said, there are other operational pipelines. Thinking the problem with Russia selling Europe energy is “pipelines” is the definition of missing the forest for the trees. Assume we are at war with Russia and that they are a full blown revisionist militarist state in the Nazi tradition and everything will make more sense. Stop making stuff up and start dealing with reality - we are in a state of direct economic and information warfare with Russia, and in a proxy hot conflict where we hope to annihilate their armed forces. They are acting accordingly.

Effectively the world is at war against a new form of fascist/hypernationalist superpower and you guys are arguing about who blew up a pipeline that the fascists would use to feed energy to their now sworn enemies.

Stop guessing. It was the fascists.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by guerrilla on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:57AM (#33248236)
> If anything happened in the world, US must be behind it, military industrial complex blah blah blah.

Purely statistically speaking (without considering any details), that's definitely what one should bet on [1] before other information is recieved. If someone didn't know any of the specific facts, it's obvious that their intuition is honed correctly if that's their default. That doesn't mean it was the US, but without further knowledge (which most people don't have because who has the time for that), it's a very good default setting considering actual world history.

1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by kranke155 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:59AM (#33248256)
You must be American. Makes sense.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by guerrilla on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:24AM (#33248730)
Not exactly but that wouldn't be a valid argument anyway.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by eli on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:13AM (#33247468)
Sounds awfully conspiratorial. What would the motive be?
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by colpabar on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:16AM (#33247523)
Europe used to buy a lot of natural gas from russia via these pipelines. Now that they're gone, they will have to buy from someone else. The united states has a lot of natural gas to sell them.

edit: nice stealth edit. the original comment was just "what would the motive be?" which imo is a perfectly fine question to ask. the "conspiratorial" line has me wondering though: what would a non conspiratorial theory be?

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by matthewdgreen on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:18AM (#33247568)
One of the NS2 strings is still operable, and Russia is still offering to sell gas to Germany through it.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by JasonFruit on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:30AM (#33247763)
That seems like an odd offer from a nation that allegedly attempted to destroy the pipeline.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by matthewdgreen on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:43AM (#33247963)
Invading Ukraine and blowing up your most lucrative export relationships also seemed pretty odd to most observers. I don't really know how to judge what's "odd" anymore.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by nathanaldensr on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:20AM (#33247596)
While this is true, it seems to be only incidentally true--i.e., the intent was to blow up all the pipes.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by mantas on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:19AM (#33247581)
Both pipelines were not operating for a while. They’d be helpful after the war to get gas as reparations though.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by arrosenberg on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:15AM (#33247499)
The theory is that the US did a Cortez and burned the hypothetical escape route Europe had for its NatGas problem. Now they are committed to the Ukrainian cause because they won’t get their gas either way.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by T-A on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:38AM (#33247896)
... but spectacularly failed to blow up one of the two Nord Stream 2 pipes.

Instead, they put two holes in one of them, and a hole in each of the two Nord Stream 1 pipes.

Lest anyone forget, Nord Stream 1 is the pipeline which Russia had been throttling and shutting off and on for months, before finally stating that it wouldn't be reopened until sanctions are lifted - which is obviously not going to happen anytime soon - while Nord Stream 2 is the brand new pipeline which Germany declined to authorize for use following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

As pointed out by Putin, that leaves Nord Stream 2 ready to start sending sweet, sweet Russian gas to Germany as soon as they say so.

Incidentally, the attacks were carried out just in time for the inauguration of the Baltic Pipe from Norway to Poland and close to its southward bend off Bornholm, in the Danish EEZ, AND half a kilometer from the SwePol cable between Sweden and Poland, in the Swedish EEZ.

I guess besides aiding Putin's stick-and-carrot gas policy in Germany, the US also wanted to send a really strong message to Ukraine-supporting Poland and NATO-hopeful Sweden.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:17AM (#33247546)
> The theory is that the US did a Cortez and burned the hypothetical escape route Europe had for its NatGas problem. Now they are committed to the Ukrainian cause because they won’t get their gas either way.

That's pure bollocks because the pipelines through Poland/Belarus and Austria/Hungary/Ukraine still exist and work. They were able to handle the entire European gas supply before Germany decided to build NordStream to reduce the leverage of these transit countries.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by arrosenberg on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:21AM (#33247612)
I wasn’t endorsing the notion, but thats the motive being assigned when the US is blamed.

I wouldn’t say its an unrealistic POV though, Ukraine and Poland would likely block gas if the alternative was letting Russia win the war.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by nathanaldensr on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:21AM (#33247621)
The point is to remove a direct source of gas. Just because there is an indirect source doesn't mean it's reliable or a full replacement; leverage can be exerted on those transit countries just as easily, or those countries may, on their own, decide to join Russia's economic sphere of influence.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by kornhole on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:17AM (#33247542)
-Eliminate any leverage Russia had with Germany and EU. -Supply more LNG from US
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by WatchDog on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:28AM (#33247730)
Biden publicly stated that he will shut down the nord stream if Russia attacked Ukraine[0], so he’s sticking to his word.

[0]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVbEoZXhCrM

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by smegsicle on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#33249885)
whether the US was involved or not, i hope people are starting to see what a dangerous idiot he is to have in power

that stupid smirk on his face really makes it look like he's eager to blow it up

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by rasz on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @05:30PM (#33254285)
especially compared to completely rational stable genius in the Kremlin, right?
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by smegsicle on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:44PM (#33257349)
what?
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by Gud on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:18AM (#33259166)
No one’s arguing that Russia is a rational actor. Wouldn’t you feel more comfortable if you had a commander in chief in the US who didn’t appear half senile?
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by pydry on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:19AM (#33247580)
To prevent Germany from caving to Russia in the middle of winter when it is suffering an extreme energy crisis.

Also to shift European dependence away from Russian gas and on to American LNG.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by fabian2k on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:26AM (#33247700)
The gas storage is >95% full and it looks like households are reducing their gas usage significantly so far. So the outlook for this winter is not too bad. Unless something really big happens that changes this the situation is nowhere even close to being bad enough to cause any change in Germany's policy regarding Russia and Ukraine.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by pydry on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#33249891)
95% full is enough to last two months in an averagely bad winter.

That might stretch to 4 if you ration.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by nathanaldensr on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:22AM (#33247643)
I hear this a lot, but my understanding is that shipping LNG across oceans is very inefficient and would require far more terminals to receive LNG than exist. My impression is it's not even close to a 1:1 substitution.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by pydry on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:18PM (#33250796)
Nowhere near. Right now that's more of a Germany problem than a USA problem though.

America would like Europe to build more LNG terminals to accomodate its growing gas surplus but first investors will want to feel confident that that tap wont be switched on again soon coz LNG wont ever be able to compete with a pipeline.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by guerrilla on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:18AM (#33247559)
Disrupting Nord Stream 1/2, which the US has wanted and been very explicit and vocal about since day one. Why? The theory goes that they want to sell gas to Europe rather instead of Russia. That seems plausible if not obvious, but what's definitely true in any case is they did not want Europe buying gas from Russia. The official propaganda is that it was for Europe's own security (which we see now is not completely invalid.)
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by thrown_22 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:18AM (#33247558)
Bringing Europe to heel.

Ask the British and French what sort of ally the US was during the Suez Crisis.

Since people don't seem to get it: Europe will now be an energy subsidiary of the US. When the next US president says that they need to contribute 4% of GDP to Nato it will come with the promise of an unpleasant winter if they don't.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by staunch on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:28AM (#33247725)
> Ask the British and French what sort of ally the US was during the Suez Crisis.

The Suez Crisis is when the British, French, and Israeli governments conspired behind the back of the US to invade Egypt and install a puppet regime. With the goal of stealing their oil supply.

Pretty much the same thing Putin just attempted in Ukraine.

It's to Eisenhower's credit that he didn't back their immoral attack. And one of the big wins for the morality of US foreign policy in the 20th century.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by baud147258 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:41AM (#33247945)
> With the goal of stealing their oil supply.

And control of the Suez Canal...

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by staunch on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:50AM (#33248098)
Hah yes, of course, I deleted that part somehow.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by hef19898 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:39AM (#33247913)
True, with one tid bit: it was more about the Suez Canal then oil. Oh yeah, and the US was pissed not because of the conspiracy but rather because it interfered with US plans. And because the US didn't get any of the spoils if it would have worked out.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by staunch on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:54AM (#33248180)
> And because the US didn't get any of the spoils if it would have worked out.

That may be true of some people in his administration but I don't think that was Eisenhower's view.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by thrown_22 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:31AM (#33247767)
>It's to Eisenhower's credit that he didn't back their immoral attack. And one of the big wins for the morality of US foreign policy in the 20th century.

Oh wait, you're seriously using a moral argument about the cold war. Let me laugh harder.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by pseudo0 on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:00AM (#33257470)
The bigger issue was how Egypt unilaterally seized the Suez Canal Company (jointly owned by the British and the French). Egypt then banned Israel from using the Straits of Tiran for shipping, effectively imposing a blockade. Attempting regime change was likely unwise, but all three countries were quite thoroughly provoked by Nasser.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by staunch on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @10:18AM (#33262572)
> ...all three countries were quite thoroughly provoked by Nasser.

FYI "provoked" is the exact word used by many to rationalize Putin's invasion of Ukraine. One could just as easily say Nasser was provoked to his actions by decades of foreign domination and exploitation.

This stuff is complex but at the end of day those three countries were clearly wrong to invade a sovereign country.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by Deganta on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:26AM (#33247697)
But why would the US destroy NordStream?

There was no gas flowing through the pipeline anyway.

Ukraine is already winning the war.

European states are already looking to buy gas from anywhere but Russia

And finally, there is a huge risk involved for the US. If any evidence ever surfaces, the US may lose the trust of most of its allies. I don't see why taking this risk would be justified.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by m000 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:40AM (#33247935)
> European states are already looking to buy gas from anywhere but Russia

Yes, because Russia is temporarily sanctioned. The moment the sanctions are lifted, Russia will still have the cheapest prices due to proximity and infrastructure. And Europe, of course, would resume buying from Russia, although they will try to secure better backup solutions in case of a future incident.

Blowing up the pipeline makes sure that gas flow will take a considerable time to resume. This gives leverage to alternative suppliers to negotiate for long-term deals with EU. With long-term deals in place, it will take several years for Russia to regain its dominant position in the European energy market.

> And finally, there is a huge risk involved for the US.

What risk? The Baltic Sea is controlled by NATO. It's fairly easy for the US to find or create a window of opportunity to carry the operation.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by mcphage on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:23AM (#33248713)
> What risk?

The risk is, if the US ever gets caught, then we'd significantly burn our relationships with our European allies. How is sabotaging our geopolitical position in exchange for oil companies making some extra bucks worthwhile?

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by m000 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:45AM (#33249161)
> if the US ever gets caught

Exactly: if.

> we'd significantly burn our relationships with our European allies

But let's say that the US is caught red-handed. I doubt the consequences will be anywhere close to dire for them. See what happened when CIA was revealed to be spying on chancellor Merkel (hint: nothing). As this action will not be directly against any EU nation, significant reactions are very unlikely.

At least a few EU countries would probably align with the US, vetoing/dampening any centralized reaction from the EU. I am aware of at least one EU leader that wouldn't mind undermining EU in exchange for an invitation to the USA and a photo-op with the POTUS.

Some countries will be secretly mad, yes. But they won't have the option to stay mad for long. At the end of the day, US would even find their geopolitical position reinforced because of the fragmentation inside the EU.

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by hdjjhhvvhga on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @02:13PM (#33251620)
> The moment the sanctions are lifted

What would be that moment, though? When they pause killing? When they decide to start peace talks? Frankly, I find it hard to imagine everyone* gets back to business as usual after everything that happened. Maybe if Russians themselves killed Putin and at least apologized it would be a good starting point to consider talking about potential lifting of sanctions.

* except Hungary

Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:30AM (#33247751)
Though possible, the damage to the US if found responsible would be unfathomable. I can't imagine Joe approving that.
Re:Nord Stream blast 'blew away 50 metres of pipe' by kcplate on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @08:55PM (#33256090)
It’s a little hard to deny you did something when you said publicly you were going to do it…

https://youtu.be/k8YC7UQVmis