And I'm rocking a Dell XPS 9570 for personal use, still on arch, no real issue there neither. Well except the Nvidia gpu using prime that needed a truckload of work to get to work, but that's not Dell's fault.
So yeah, in my experience, a quick google search for systemic problems (bios related) of the laptop, its wifi chip support, etc, is enough to tell whether a laptop is fit for linux.
Stinks that such little (yet significant) things kept me from the framework!
Can't consider anything else because I'm addicted to the TrackPoint.
> It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen.
Not sure if this is impressive or reckless, but either way it doesn’t apply to most people.
Can you tell I’m a tiny bit bitter, as an Australian? :)
I'll be going for a ThinkPad Gen 2 instead.
Practically being a life-long Linux user, I've never owned a Macbook so not sure if things are better on that side.
EDIT: Man, reviews for that and the Gen 3 just really aren't great in terms of Linux support.
I have said this before but Framework are leaving the opportunity to create a Thinkpad-killer series on the table that would be perfect to target all the folks unhappy with the decline of the Thinkpad. Heck, these people would probably pay more than they did for Thinkpads just to get those features back and make up for years of pent-up disappointments. Such a device has a good chance to become the "de-facto" developer's choice for Linux folks.
It reminds me of my family from the UK when they used to travel to the US decades ago. They'd go home with half a dozen pairs of jeans each, and nearly pay for their tickets.
Shipping it to the US and then back might involve not only stupid expensive shipping, but also having to figure out paperwork for both Australian and US Customs, unless you want to potentially pay double import-duties on each side.
I did it with Lenovo laptops years ago, because buying from the US and with shipping it still worked out to be around 1/3 the price of buying it from the AU Lenovo store, and Lenovo had a Global warranty program on their Thinkpad line. Smaller OEMs without that, I wouldn't risk it.
In Germany the base model starts at 1599 €, which is around $1630.
Might look even worse for other countries.
Germany (VAT rate 19%): https://www.apple.com/de/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro
1.599,00 €
Einschließlich MwSt. und ges. Gebühren i. H. v. ca. 266,00 €.*
Ireland (VAT rate 23%): https://www.apple.com/ie/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro
€1,629.00
Total Payments for your device include VAT of approx. €305.00.*
From the US store you need to go to the checkout page before you see the tax payable, so assuming San Francisco (sales tax rate 8.625%):
Subtotal $1,299.00
Estimated tax $112.04
CA recycling fee $4.00
Total $1,415.04
Sales tax is lower in the US than VAT is in the EU. Taxes are the price you pay for living in more a civilized society.
* The MBA comes with 256GB which is not enough storage, especially since when you run out of space you have to buy a whole new laptop to get more. That's compounded by the high prices that Apple charges for storage upgrades. The cost of upgrading to a 2TB SSD and 16GB of RAM (just the upgrade, NOT including the base price of the laptop) is more than an entire Framework laptop with a 2TB SSD and 16GB of RAM
* IIRC the MBA only supports 1 external monitor. The Framework supports 4 external monitor at 4k144hz (I'd only ever need 2, but it's nice to have extra headroom).
* Ideological reasons I won't belabor
seen under a different lens: you think that an effort a person does over 3.65 days to afford a computer is expensive, while many people would have to accumulate the effort of 73 days to afford it.
I think of a laptop in the same way as a chef's knife: it needs to be an extension of your being when you are in the zone, and good tools do that. Ive had near-religious experiences woodworking with good tools and other craft types tell me they have too.
for such a tool, 1% is nothing.
Also I have had to use a Mac more recently for work, and I miss my XPS running well with Docker, and I find it hilarious that with MacBooks you need the new M processor models to be able to run Docker workloads without the fans blasting!
I’d love to try a Framework too though.
I had an XPS for 1.5 years, with terrible chassis issues that got worse and worse until typing would cause it to freeze.
I use a Framework for my daily driver and I couldn't be happier! I do have the occasional issue with a WD-SN850 that causes freezing, but that isn't due to Framework specifically.
Maybe it's just specific models with the hardware limitations?
Support for suspend in linux is definitely shaky, but a (eventually fixable) firmware issue. On the other hand, I am concerned with the company's commitment to upgradability. Since they announced the 2nd generation motherboard some months back, the only way to get one has been with a brand new laptop around it.
I guess there’s some reason it’ll never actually work a linux laptop.
Except it clearly can; every thinkpad I've owned handled S3 flawlessly in Linux, and Chromebooks manage fine.
I do not want to discuss that, I just want to show the value of anecdotal evidence postings: zero.
I’ve had thinkpads that don’t work either. The issue is suspend still doesn’t work reliably going on twenty years - even in the case where the laptop is explicitly a Linux laptop made for this purpose.
It means my default assumption has to remain that it probably won’t work (or at least I shouldn't expect that it will). I’m tempted by the framework because I like what they’re trying to do, but if suspend is still an issue it’s imo not worth it (even ignoring the bad battery tradeoff). That’s even ignoring the continued distance apple keeps putting between themselves and everyone else with their custom hardware.
Also the modular ports are essentially built in usb-c dongles. It’s not obvious to me why this is better than just having adapters. It takes up internal space and may be partly why the battery life is bad. Instead of adapters you have modules - is this a win?
On Windows sleep is a shitshow. It sometimes wakes up if I leave it alone during the night, it sometimes doesn't sleep at all (the screen stays on), it sometimes completely breaks (fans go full tilt, screen backlight comes on, but that's it) and I need to do a full reboot to make it work.
On Linux: press sleep, and it sleeps. Press power, it wakes up. If it sleeps, it stays asleep. When it turns on, the computer is actually usable, no forced reboot required.
This despite the fact that "HP recommends Windows 11", and the support page has no idea Linux even exists.
Still better than having to use Windows or OSX.
This is most likely wake timers. Some program or windows itself is waking your machine to do updates. Disabling wake timers will prevent anything from waking the machine while sleeping.
And this also happens during the day, say if I put it to sleep while going for a walk. It sometimes wakes up a few moments later, sometimes it'll sleep all the way.
My schedule is fairly regular, too, so unless the timers have large jitter, I'd expect them to trigger roughly at the same time (either after X time, or at Y hour).
This used to happen on Linux initially, too, and there were no timers there. I could stop it by disabling EC wake up. I've never found anything similar on Windows, so I just turn it off. At least it boots quickly...
powercfg /waketimers
powercfg /lastwakeThe Framework has a proper cross-brace on the hinge, the hinge mounting points are metal, and I can inexpensively replace the case or hinge if either breaks after the warranty expires.
Obviously I'm being a bit greedy here, but much of Framework's value proposition is built around upgradability. Servicing the crowd that actually buys into that proposition first seems like it would be more valuable from a customer loyalty standpoint, even relative to new customer acquisition. These are repeat customers clearly committed to your company's product.
(I have had multiple over the years and have had zero issues)
The other models I can't say much about. But the yogas are not Linux compatible
They do not provide any post-warranty support (even paid) and do not sell spare parts.
Now I'm back to a desktop PC that I built myself and can repair or upgrade however I want.
They're repairable in that HP has repair manuals on their public site, complete with disassembly instructions and part numbers. Never had to replace anything, so I don't know how easy it would be to actually source the parts.
Most importantly, they are also one of the few to have AMD models without any soldered RAM, and they don't insist on HP branded RAM either.
Linux works great on these. The worst I had was an older ProBook whose fingerprint sensor was unsupported. On my current one, it works 100% under Linux, while on Windows I can't get the webcam to work.
I'll probably get rid of it in favor of a framework once they sort out their battery troubles either by getting ryzens or intel stepping up their efficiency game though.
I had a T42 in 2008 and read Thinkpads already went downhill back then.
I have a P15s for work and my initial model would hard freeze when putting pressure in certain spots. I used an external keyboard/mouse mostly, but it'd still happen occasionally. Eventually got a tech sent out and he swapped the motherboard. I think it's fixed, but I still touch it as little as possible and use external peripherals.
Some people defend modern ThinkPads saying they still beat the competition. I'd like to think the bar is higher than that considering some of what's out there.
My take on all this is that x86 is on its way out anyway, so I'm trying to make my T440p last and will try to go with ARM or RISC-V for my next machine. Likely just an M2 Max MacBook Pro when available. Hopefully Asahi support is pretty good by then.
The Framework is sort of cool, but it's just another modern Intel machine at the same time. Guts aside, they're doing a good job, but the guts are pretty important, and in this case, boring. The MNT Reform is a lot more interesting, although I don't know if any particularly performant SoMs are available for it yet. I'd like something with better performance than my Pinebook Pro if possible. The RK3399 is not quite Main Machine material.
I tried ordering one of their laptops back around 2015 on their website. The cart just straight up broke during checkout. Tried contacting support - no response.
2 weeks later they emailed me asking how my purchasing experience was (hilarious that they couldn't tell the purchase actually didn't go through, because the card wasn't charged)
Was literally throwing money at them trying to buy their product, but I guess they didn't want it. So I'm never giving them a cent of it again.
Thin is a _problem_! Thin means:
1. The design of everything needs to be warped to fit in - less opportunities for modularization and more contortion needed for disassembly.
2. Bad keyboard with almost no key travel
> They started going downhill after that
I would say the X220 era is where things started going downhill. Although some might argue that it was even earlier.
- Ran Linux without much tinkering or major compromises
- small (14")
- affordable (around $1300 for my config)
- lightweight and thin
- powerful (I had a Core i5)
- upgrade-able (I had 48gb of RAM)
They started going downhill after that, primarily in that I could no longer find a Thinkpad model that was at the intersection of upgrade-able and Linux compatibility.
Around 2021 I started looking for an alternative. Looked at made-for-Linux laptops like System76 and the various Linux-certified Dells. Couldn't find anything that checked all my boxes and the Dells were particularly crippled: 8GB of soldered on RAM? Only certified to work if you use their custom hacked Ubuntu image? No thanks.
The Framework (gen11, DIY edition) was exactly what I was looking for. My configuration at the time was $1032 and I've been running Manjaro Linux on it continuously for the past year on it with zero problems. It's just good solid generic hardware at a fair price. It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. It's repairable so I don't worry about something physically breaking.
I have since bought another one for an employee and over the next few years I plan on deploying them to my whole team.
Basically I should be a testimonial on their website.