Maybe it sounds better if you look at it this way: if every Framework laptop you buy gets stolen halfway through its useful lifetime, it's still cheaper than owning Macbook Pros.

A MacBook Pro starts at $1299 with a significantly faster processor. You can’t upgrade a MacBook Pro, but if your laptop is getting stolen half way through it’s lifetime, you’re probably not upgrading it. So not really.

In the US maybe. In other countries Macs are quite a bit more expensive. And your customer support and service experience could be worse than in the US.

You can’t buy a Framework device in most countries, so that’s a little moot.

Can you tell I’m a tiny bit bitter, as an Australian? :)

You might not be able to get a Framework here (yet), but ebay is FULL of ex-business Thinkpads that are almost as easy to refurb and cost <$500. Hell a lot of them are new enough that you can still get genuine parts for them direct from Lenovo.

Australian here - me too. And I need to buy a laptop now (haven't had one since WFH meant I didn't need anything but a desktop).

I'll be going for a ThinkPad Gen 2 instead.

Not sure if by Gen 2 you mean Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2 - if you did, as an owner of the said machine, everything generally works but that is the best I can say about it. Battery life isn't exactly stellar, graphics issues with NVIDIA drivers all the time, fans start blowing full-tilt at the earliest opportunity and can get pretty hot.

Practically being a life-long Linux user, I've never owned a Macbook so not sure if things are better on that side.

I'm looking at the L14 model, I don't exactly need "spectacular" just "Intel graphics": https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadl/th...

EDIT: Man, reviews for that and the Gen 3 just really aren't great in terms of Linux support.

And they are not exactly cheap either - practically same as P-series.

I have said this before but Framework are leaving the opportunity to create a Thinkpad-killer series on the table that would be perfect to target all the folks unhappy with the decline of the Thinkpad. Heck, these people would probably pay more than they did for Thinkpads just to get those features back and make up for years of pent-up disappointments. Such a device has a good chance to become the "de-facto" developer's choice for Linux folks.

Have you considered using a third party shipping service?

It'd cost about $250-300 to ship to Australia, based on the last time I bought a laptop from the US. Then you pay customs & import taxes on the combined purchase+shipping costs, which would be about another $200-250.

Wow. A person could perhaps not cover, but at least nicely subsidize, the cost of a trip to Australia by hand-carrying a couple of laptops with them... wonder how many you can bring through Customs before they start to get suspicious?

It reminds me of my family from the UK when they used to travel to the US decades ago. They'd go home with half a dozen pairs of jeans each, and nearly pay for their tickets.

If any of them are still in the box you'll be enjoying a nice customs bill (doubly so because you definitely didn't declare them)

Even if you exclude the cost of shipping to purchase it, it becomes a significant risk if something were to go wrong and you needed to ship it back for repair.

Shipping it to the US and then back might involve not only stupid expensive shipping, but also having to figure out paperwork for both Australian and US Customs, unless you want to potentially pay double import-duties on each side.

I did it with Lenovo laptops years ago, because buying from the US and with shipping it still worked out to be around 1/3 the price of buying it from the AU Lenovo store, and Lenovo had a Global warranty program on their Thinkpad line. Smaller OEMs without that, I wouldn't risk it.

There was a point in history, where it was cheaper to fly to the US, buy photoshop and fly back to Australia.

If you do this you often get hit with significant import & customs duty (at least in NZ, everything here is more expensive than in US)

> MacBook Pro starts at $1299

In Germany the base model starts at 1599 €, which is around $1630.

Might look even worse for other countries.

Base model is 1700 Can$, which is about 1300 USD. But take with a grain of salt as those numbers are from apple canada's website. Inevitably, cellphones and consumer laptops, something makes them cost more than advertised.

Most of that difference is because advertised prices in the EU include VAT whereas sales tax in the US is added on top of the advertised price.

This is clearly stated on Apple's EU product pages.

Germany (VAT rate 19%): https://www.apple.com/de/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro

1.599,00 €

Einschließlich MwSt. und ges. Gebühren i. H. v. ca. 266,00 €.*

Ireland (VAT rate 23%): https://www.apple.com/ie/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro

€1,629.00

Total Payments for your device include VAT of approx. €305.00.*

From the US store you need to go to the checkout page before you see the tax payable, so assuming San Francisco (sales tax rate 8.625%):

Subtotal $1,299.00

Estimated tax $112.04

CA recycling fee $4.00

Total $1,415.04

Sales tax is lower in the US than VAT is in the EU. Taxes are the price you pay for living in more a civilized society.

When was the last time you checked the currency conversion?

15 seconds before the comment.

An M1 MacBook Air is $999 and has a much better display, four times the battery life, it's faster and doesn't run hot.

I was debating between the MBA and Framework. For me the deal breakers were:

* The MBA comes with 256GB which is not enough storage, especially since when you run out of space you have to buy a whole new laptop to get more. That's compounded by the high prices that Apple charges for storage upgrades. The cost of upgrading to a 2TB SSD and 16GB of RAM (just the upgrade, NOT including the base price of the laptop) is more than an entire Framework laptop with a 2TB SSD and 16GB of RAM

* IIRC the MBA only supports 1 external monitor. The Framework supports 4 external monitor at 4k144hz (I'd only ever need 2, but it's nice to have extra headroom).

* Ideological reasons I won't belabor

How does your Framework perform with dual 4k144hz monitors? My 16” 2019 intel macbook pro really struggled even at its max output of 60hz. My new M1 Max doesn’t miss a beat.

It's still in the mail, so we'll see! As long as it avoids the macOS issue where my left and right monitors randomly flip positions, I'll be happy :)

The Framework product has a much bigger value: it demonstrates that it is possible to deliver a consumer product with less builtin obsolescence. If they can stay profitable long-term they will be an important POC that we do not need to maximize obsolescence for a company to survive.

It's unfortunate the modern Macbooks are such sealed boxes. The M1 compares surprisingly favorably against even the i7-1165G7 that you get in the Framework "Performance" series. About the only advantage you get with Intel right now is the higher maximum addressable memory (64GB vs 24). And Windows, of course, if you consider that an advantage.

The base model is $829 at Microcenter and $849 at Costco.

I would never even consider buying an Apple product due to the price.

I mean if you're making 150k a year as a SWE, losing your laptop isn't a big deal.

Spending 1% of your net annual salary on a laptop still strikes me as a large purchase.

There is a world out there where people pay 15~20% of their annual income to buy a computer

seen under a different lens: you think that an effort a person does over 3.65 days to afford a computer is expensive, while many people would have to accumulate the effort of 73 days to afford it.

You're buying a tool for your work, it will last at least 2 years, and as a developer you have almost no ongoing costs or required consumables. Comparing to many other kinds of jobs, 1% per year for equipment is nothing. If it makes your job more comfortable or faster, thinking too much to decide between 0-2% of your annual salary seems counterproductive.

large: yes, justifiable: very possibly.

I think of a laptop in the same way as a chef's knife: it needs to be an extension of your being when you are in the zone, and good tools do that. Ive had near-religious experiences woodworking with good tools and other craft types tell me they have too.

for such a tool, 1% is nothing.

A large purchase- but perhaps just small enough you can agree with yourself to let go of worry. Perpetual anxiety about theft is no way to live.

What if one only buys a laptop once every three or four years? Then it would be 1/3 or 1/4 of a percent of annual salary.

It would probably be tax deductible, depending of course on variables not discussed yet.

And the worldwide percentage of laptop users and devs that make 150k is how much?

As long as you have backups

Even if you knew that it would never get stolen the SSD could still die unexpectedly. Or any number of other problems.

Having anything local is reckless at this point imo. There are so many mainstream backup options at different price ranges/free!

If he's buying one for an employee he probably bought it on the company dime.

It depends where you live! I've lost laptops to guys with knives, guys with guns, mysterious cat burglars... hence my preference for easily replaceable ~$500 used Thinkpads.

My phone costs way more than that.