News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by hackyhacky on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:11PM (#32061155)
Your suspicion is correct.

I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings.

Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only take into consideration the fall semester. No one cares about class sizes in the spring.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Fomite on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:35PM (#32063599)
Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission.

It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Aunche on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:38PM (#32065298)
I remember when I was applying for colleges and the only reason I applied to Harvard was because they didn't require any specific essay, which was unlike any other school. If they did, I probably would have just passed on them. At the time, I thought it was nice because I was tired of writing essays, but now I realize that it's probably just a way to boost their selectivity.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by joe5150 on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:54PM (#32063787)
"Recruit to deny" [1] has been getting more attention but still not enough.

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-rec...

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by KMag on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:30PM (#32064493)
Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright.

Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other schools to which you were applying. I'm not sure if that's still the case.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by JohnBooty on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:49PM (#32064994)
I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by draz on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:11PM (#32065112)
They expect students of a certain caliber. If the applicant exceeds their expectations, the university assumes the student is using this application as a “safety school.”
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by brewdad on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:42PM (#32065332)
My kid, got waitlisted at UM, while a classmate with similar but slightly lower GPA and extra-currs got in. Maybe his essay wasn't as convincing or maybe they thought he'd snub them for his first choice. He didn't get into the dream school either but ended up in a great place at a school that likely fits him better anyway (and is cheaper since UM's OOS tuition is insane).

It's still frustrating as both his parents are alumni. Thanks to Covid and test waivers, 2021 seemed like a rougher year than normal to be applying to the higher end of schools.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by gundmc on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:22AM (#32065958)
This is sometimes referred to as "Tufts Syndrome" or "Yield Protection": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Fomite on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:41PM (#32078803)
cries in Jumbo alum
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Fomite on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:13AM (#32065543)
I used to live with an admissions officer - they've got data (and instinct) for "You're probably not going to go here". The same is true for graduate admissions in my experience.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by hobo_in_library on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:18PM (#32063977)
Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking

It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points"

In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college performs

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by DenisM on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:10PM (#32064334)
> It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points"

So does page rank or citation index - popularity begets visibility, begets popularity.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by simonh on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:20PM (#32065174)
The difference is that applicants by definition don’t have personal experience of how good the school is, it’s all perception. With page rank and citations the expectation is those linking to or citing something have read it and have reason to value it.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Spivak on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:30AM (#32065661)
Same with students applying. They’re betting that students aren’t applying completely randomly to schools and that the research they do beforehand isn’t entirely noise and has some signal that will show up in the average.

I mean it’s a pretty darn conservative proposition to say “we think that averaged over the entire population of applicants that the schools that students spend their time applying to will trend, however small, to better schools.

Where the flip side of “it’s all noise and it’s impossible to evaluate a school better than flipping a coin without actually attending” is an incredibly strong assertion.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by simonh on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:32AM (#32067043)
I'm in the UK, but my eldest is starting Uni this September and rankings played a huge role in her selection of colleges. Yes of course she looked at their prospectuses and visited a few of them, but the shortlist of the ones to look at and visit itself was based on rankings.

It's like the XKCD about Wikipedia entries being cited in articles, which get cited in papers, which then get cited in the same Wikipedia article.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by shreyshnaccount on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:36AM (#32066726)
I usually love this kind of feedback loops in systems but this one is kinda sad
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Georgelemental on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:01AM (#32068600)
Much (often most) of the value of a degree is in signaling. So public perception is very important
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bluGill on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @09:21AM (#32069520)
Not really. There are only a handful of schools where it matters, the rest nobody has even heard of. Odds are half the people you are competing with have a degree from a university I've never heard of, and the other half it is a local college that I know of but I have no idea how it stacks up compared to yours. The local school when you are local can be a negative though - I know the bad local schools.

If you have the big name degree it might push me to interview you when otherwise I'm borderline about tossing your resume, but that is it. I need to know you are good not your school.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Spooky23 on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:25PM (#32064843)
Perception is the result. Average SAT score relative to others tells you roughly average IQ difference for the student body.

The rest is bunk. Undergraduates aren’t connecting with famous professors. A faculty team with deep expertise in a particular area is relevant but not in the rankings.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by naniwaduni on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:41PM (#32064950)
My impression has long been that the endowment per capita metric provides about as good a ranking as any of the third-party rankings within a category. Where it disagrees with US News, it usually matches my intuitions; and where it disagrees with my intuitions, I usually learn that the college in question has a better reputation than my impression.

It doesn't do a great job comparing across categories, but then, neither does US News...

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by cma on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:09AM (#32065514)
Some top colleges don't have alumni/legacy preference so that endowment measure maybe gets skewed away from them. MIT and I think Caltech.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by naniwaduni on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:57PM (#32074869)
They still do great on this metric, though! MIT comes out looking a bit short of Harvard, on par with Stanford. These schools ride a bit higher than the top tier of LACs (Williams/Amherst/Pomona/Swarthmore), which isn't necessarily the fairest comparison, but Caltech fits right in with those.

Maybe they'd be richer if their admissions was more open about taking quasi-bribes, but I suspect you're dramatically underestimating the orders of magnitude of difference that appear on this metric. You find clear tier gaps.

Don't get me wrong, this is a silly proxy metric about three degrees out from anything you'd actually want to know. But it gets surprisingly good results for how simple it is to tabulate.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by troupe on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:27PM (#32064045)
Imagine college A that 100 apply for and all 100 get in vs. college B where 10,000 people applied and only 100 got in. If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Obviously college B would have students with better SAT scores simply because they are so much more selective.

Assuming that the college is selecting students for attributes that you are looking for in fellow students, then the college that denies more people will have students with more of the attributes you are wanting to be around. So it isn't just about perception. There is some math behind it as well.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by HWR_14 on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:43PM (#32064968)
> If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B?

Except "average SAT score of incoming class" is another field of the rankings. All the measurable criteria are handled as independent variables - there's no need for a poor proxy.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by highwaylights on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:49PM (#32064209)
Even so, you don’t need to guess the reasons for acceptance on aggregate data - you can check if the SAT scores were higher. At least that would tell you for certain.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by ipaddr on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:50PM (#32064621)
It depends if school A costs 100,000 and school B almost free. I would put my money on the 100 who spent 100,000 over the free 10,000.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by spindle on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:30AM (#32067033)
I didn't know that about Harvard. That's so sad. I've seen how devastated the rejects can be.

My anecdote is that I was once recruited by one of the best departments in the world in my field, at a very junior level ... and then, before I started, my contract was rewritten to be at a higher level, because they'd found out that that would allow them to count my grants in their metrics. Not only is this obviously dodgy, but I think it's actually illegal in Australia (since better-qualified candidates weren't given the opportunity to apply for the post at the higher level), but they did it anyway.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by gumby on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:27PM (#32064473)
> It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

The common app has made this worse. In "the old days" you had to fill out a full application, write different essays etc.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by eduction on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:54PM (#32063209)
I attended a well known and regarded public university. I was admitted for spring, and for the preceding fall entered a program where I could live in a regular university dorm and take classes for full credit taught at the same university’s extension, but special extension classes just for this program (so all spring admit students). Then you stay in the dorm in spring as you become a “regular” student.

I always suspected it was a way to fudge numbers, but at the same time I knew I was genuinely on the bubble of being admitted so I took the opportunity gladly.

(My memory is that the other spring admits were, like me, from racial groups considered “over represented” so they may have been trying to affect diversity numbers too.)

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by smugma on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:04PM (#32063884)
Berkeley has been doing this for at least 35 years.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by tobinfricke on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:21PM (#32064003)
Yup, I got into Berkeley EECS this way back in the late 20th century. I'd guess it's legitimate load-balancing rather than an attempt to game the ratings. I assumed this meant that my application was borderline and I was grateful to be able to sneak in. The Extension program is a nice transition to college too.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by etempleton on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:34PM (#32064901)
Load balancing is the most likely reason. At any given college a lot of first year students decide college isn't for them or they get home sick and drop out within the first semester. After that initial period student population of the class is much more stable.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by CogitoCogito on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:19PM (#32061252)
> Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only take into consideration the fall semester. No one cares about class sizes in the spring.

What a bizarre and totally unnecessary restriction.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by unosama on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:47PM (#32062388)
You add a simple and reasonable (until it gets abused) assumption to your model which allows a lesser data collection burden on thousands of universities. I wouldn't call it a restriction.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by thaumasiotes on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:19PM (#32062803)
> which allows a lesser data collection burden on thousands of universities.

How's it supposed to do that? Universities all already collect the data on enrollment for every class they offer.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by fshbbdssbbgdd on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:54PM (#32063790)
Spoken like a software engineer! Now imagine every form is being filled out manually by an administrator with a calculator.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by mwint on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:50PM (#32064217)
Maybe the forms should be made too complex to be filled with a calculator, to encourage doing things the right way…
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by geraldwhen on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:19PM (#32064407)
Wouldn’t work. Entire state budgets are accounted for by spreadsheets without formulas, emailed between people in an office with no revision control.

A few years ago when 50 million went missing, I wasn’t surprised. I’d seen the budgeting process, and it was worse than you could possibly imagine.

There was an attempt to go the software route, but a nepotism deal left the budgeting department with a worse system than manual spreadsheet entry.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by shreyshnaccount on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @03:40AM (#32066754)
lowest bidder took the 50mil. on a serious note tho, this is craziness. technical education and knowing how to code should be mandatory for these kinds of jobs.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by geraldwhen on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:35AM (#32067933)
Most of the budgeting department is highschool graduates with a few higher ups with accounting degrees.

The pay is abysmal either way. You would make more money at an entry level software job anywhere.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by fshbbdssbbgdd on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @08:27PM (#32077584)
“Hire a coder” appears to be good advice for many organizations, but there’s not enough coders for everyone to do it, so most will do without.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by pc86 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:47PM (#32072574)
But it's not.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by CogitoCogito on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @06:52AM (#32068053)
I don't agree that there's a good argument for ignoring the class sizes for half the year to decrease data collection burden. The data they're ignoring is of utmost importance to the statistic (well to the statistic as basically everyone will understand it since no one reads "average class size" and thinks "average class size of only half the classes").

In any case, the quality of the argument doesn't really matter. If the number is being gamed so trivially and yet US News continues to ignore spring classes, then the restriction has gone from bizarre and unnecessary to actively malicious. US News is basically colluding with the universities to engage in fraud.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by genewitch on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:32PM (#32061420)
Parents helping/guiding their near-adult children in the final spring of highschool to apply at or choose universities, where they would start university that same fall seem to be the target audience, here. Fall is when "most" incoming freshmen will start.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bredren on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:33PM (#32063580)
I TA'd in the attendance office at my high school back in the day.

The city's tracking of student attendance only lasted a portion of the year or a portion of each quarter.

During those times, much more effort went into calling the homes of missing students and finding out why they were not showing up to class.

I remember asking about why all the calls were happening or not happening and it was sort of quietly explained by the staffer: measurement of attendance affected how the school was being evaluated by the district. Presumably, budget was hooked to it in some way.

I didn't make any waves about it because "working" in this office was super powerful and the staffer always brought in cookies for us. Amazing gig.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by lthornberry on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:32PM (#32064087)
This is a plot point of the season of The Wire set in the school system. In Baltimore, it is definitely tied to funding--schools get per-pupil funding, but students have to actually be in attendance a certain percentage of the first six weeks of school in order to count for the funding formula.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by smugma on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:07PM (#32063903)
In California, schools get paid on daily attendance. I believe it would be considered fraud to not take daily attendance. They suspended this during the heart of the pandemic but it came back last fall. Because daily attendance is down relative to pre pandemic, Public schools are facing a significant revenue gap (5-10% is typical)
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by LeifCarrotson on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:29PM (#32064065)
In contrast, Michigan Public K-12 schools take attendance on specified Count Days to account for the number of students they serve to determine state funding. Fall count day is the 1st Wednesday in October and represents 90% of state funding. Spring count day is the 2nd Wednesday in February and represents 10% of state funding. As you might imagine, getting students in school on these days is a Big Deal.

Teachers take attendance on other days for internal use, but Count Day is special and you must not be absent!

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by MaysonL on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:33PM (#32064513)
How often have Count Days been snow days?
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @09:36AM (#32069712)
It's almost never a snow day in early October, I only remember one February count day + snow day. They count on the next day:

> If instruction is cancelled on count day due to conditions not within the control of school authorities, with the approval of the State Superintendent, the affected instructional programs must use the immediately following day on which the district resumes session for count purposes

per the rules at:

https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mde/Year/2...

I do recall my cousins at a poor rural school in Barry county having a couple snow days on Count Wednesday, and then subsequently calling one on Thursday when it wasn't really required and another on Friday where it really wasn't required, so that counts were as high as possible on Monday. Their snow days were much more frequent due to bad roads and bad road maintenance, and their state funding was much more important compared to my wealthy district.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by selimthegrim on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:31PM (#32065251)
This sounds like the prompt to a horror story.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by easton on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:44PM (#32064172)
Ah yes, the ol’ warm-body count.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bogota on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:19PM (#32061254)
Great to know many peoples graduations were delayed so someone could game some numbers
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by zerocrates on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:31PM (#32061407)
I think they mean the size of individual classes, so they're paying for more sections/instructors/instruction time in the ranking-relevant periods.

Though shrinking the admit size is another well worn tactic, as it's the easiest way to increase how "selective" you are which is another major ranking element, plus it helps you more cheaply achieve smaller average class sizes, though of course you're forgoing some revenue to get there.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by btilly on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:08PM (#32061878)
Encouraging people to apply is also a common tactic. You can't reject them if they don't apply!
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by javajosh on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:42PM (#32062315)
Applications are also a revenue source.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by dhosek on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:59PM (#32062558)
Apparently there’s a common application thing now where you can apply to large numbers of schools for undergrad without spending large amounts of money.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by thaumasiotes on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:21PM (#32062824)
The common application just means you don't have to fill out unique admission forms for every school. You still pay an application fee to every school.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by robotresearcher on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:13PM (#32063931)
In some other countries there's a national system with a single modest fee. In the UK this is 'UCAS'[1], a nonprofit org. You apply once, and indicate your top N (say, 5) favorite school+program. The applications are sent to the schools, and they can make you an offer.

If not accepted for any of them, there's a follow-up matchmaking service (called 'clearing' in the UK) to help find an unallocated spot.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCAS

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by dhosek on Monday July 11, 2022 @11:12PM (#32065120)
From the common application site: While some colleges may charge an application fee, others have no fee to apply. And, many will offer fee waivers under certain circumstances, including financial need, veteran status, and more.

Based on a conversation with my nephew who applied to a double-digit number of colleges this past year, the application fees are apparently more the exception than the rule these days.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by thaumasiotes on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:51PM (#32063176)
> You can't reject them if they don't apply!

You can if you admit on objective metrics. If you only take people who are 215 pounds or above, you can fairly claim to reject everyone lighter than that, regardless of whether they apply.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by tenpies on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:52PM (#32061678)
What are they going to do? Transfer out and have only half their credits recognized therefore pushing them back 4 semesters instead of the 1?

It's a fantastically anti-consumer market they've managed to create.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by abakker on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:21PM (#32061280)
Gotta pay for another semester then, right?
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by lumost on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:34PM (#32061439)
Why is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by rglullis on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:13PM (#32061953)
My uncle was a math teacher in Brazil - mostly test-prep course schools for university exams, later he opened some of his own private schools.

He used to say two things: that he has estimated to have taught at least 100 thousand people in his life (seems just crazy boasting, but feasible when you are working in 5-8 different schools per semester and each class has 100-250 people) and that a teacher is always teaching for the worst student in the class, and that the only reason that top universities are better is because of their selection process.

Forget class material, forget infrastructure and fancy facilities. What makes the best universities is the fact that the top students are there.

If you can not (dramatically) change your students and make them smarter, you can make your classes smaller and segment by performance. This at least stops your top 20 percentile from being dragged down by your bottom 20.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by cm2012 on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:04PM (#32062617)
This is 100% true. It's also why attempts to make things more fair by allowing lower testing kids into specialized schools fail. It just makes the specialized school a normal school.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by acchow on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:40PM (#32062284)
> that a teacher is always teaching for the worst student in the class

It's been my experience in college that most teachers just let the bottom quartile of the class fail (and likely switch into another major).

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by rglullis on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:45PM (#32062359)
There is no "switching majors" in Brazil. You make the application for the major that you want, and you are competing against everyone that also applied to that course. If you decide to switch after starting a major, you almost certainly will be forced to drop out and re-apply.

But in reality, even that doesn't matter. In the best universities, your worst students will be better than the average students at the second-rate institutions. If the teacher is simply giving the class to the top 75 percentile, the class will be even better still at the top uni.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by alanfranz on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:40PM (#32063662)
And yet this seems a self fulfilling observation .

How can somebody raise from the bottom 20% if they get subpar education?

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by rglullis on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:50PM (#32063745)
First, why assume "subpar education"? One of the corollaries from my uncle's hypothesis is that there really isn't any secret held by some elite, nor there are special resources to be distributed to students during class. Simply put, the more a group is segmented, the more the class will be appropriate to them as a whole. If anything, you are increasing "utilization" of resources.

Second, there can be individual mobility. A poor performing student with otherwise potential to improve might receive help to overcome whatever is bringing them down, and get them to thrive again. Even in that case, it would help them to be in a smaller class, as it's much easier to identify who among the low performers who want to be helped, and those lost causes who are a drag for everyone else.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by jancsika on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:54PM (#32063791)
This doesn't pass the smell test. If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded. That's many weeks after you've already taught many lectures. So how would your uncle even figure out how to tailor those initial lectures to that bottom percentile?

Where this matters is in something like a lab or music practicum where the communication between instructor and students is the class. But I can tell you from experience that the variance among different years of students in a single university is large enough to disprove your uncle's point. I had one class that could have been confused for graduate students. Yet another might as well been sent by the Trump administration with the goal of destroying the institution of ear training.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by selfhifive on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:59PM (#32065055)
You gauge the level of the class by asking questions, get an idea of where they are, and vary the pace accordingly. You've also got to factor in the experience of the teacher in gauging the level of the class.

You don't need to know everyone's level, just a rough idea about what the worst student of the class might need.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by rglullis on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:00PM (#32063852)
> you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded.

The first exam that students in test-prep schools take is before classes start, usually a mock university test that can be used precisely to assess your current level and to gather information about the class overall.

You don't need to know who are the worst performers. But if you know that your class of 250 has an uneven distribution of aptitude, you'd try to break the class apart.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by troupe on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:33PM (#32064091)
> you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded.

I've taught some college classes and guest lectured in many others. The bottom 10% is trivial to identify in a matter of minutes.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by sokoloff on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:41PM (#32064560)
> If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded.

You don’t need to know which specific 50 students are in the bottom two deciles, just that they exist and that your policy is to teach to what you’ve estimated is the 3rd decile and above.

You will find out who they are in the exams, but you know they exist in next year’s class even before that class is admitted to the uni.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by kmlevitt on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:22PM (#32062834)
Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances.

If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions and starting discussions based on them. The class becomes less of a mere information dump and more of a mentorship.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by balls187 on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:52PM (#32063182)
> If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions and starting discussions based on them.

I went to a relatively small private engineering school. It made a world of difference in my education knowing the professors, and having them know me, especially given that with small classes the professors offered office hours where I could come and discuss the material that was covered during class, as well as problems I encountered on midterms.

I still remember nearly all of my professors, fondly, precisely because of the dynamic small class sizes allowed for.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by TedDoesntTalk on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:56PM (#32063804)
Same experience here. I wouldn’t trade small class sizes for anything.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by everdrive on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:03PM (#32063306)
I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me.

This most often comes in the form of prolonged rhetorical questions. A teacher, fearing he is losing the class' interest might pause to ask "And, what is the benefit of the scientific method?" The point here is clearly to gauge whether the class understands and is following along in the train of thought. Usually, the rhetorical question has multiple interpretations and valid answers. And usually, the students are not so much wrong, as they simply fail to track what answer the teacher is hoping for. For example, the students might answer the rhetorical question above with "It helps us understand the world.", "It allows us to test theories.", etc. In fact, the teacher was looking for something like "It allows for the independent checking and confirmation of the findings of others."

In a real world example, this sidebar of questions might have taken minutes, and more often than not, completely breaks my train of thought. Often, the teach has completely paused a valid train of thought to either measure or enhance class participation, and in doing so has made it harder for me to understand the lesson.

Sometimes this goes even more poorly, and the teach just wants to witness a "class discussion," which can often entail spending much of the class polling the students for their thoughts. Depending on the subject, this can be a total waste of time. Most of the students in the class are poorly informed, and their thoughts are much less useful than a traditional lecture would have been.

I certainly admit that interactive methods of teaching can be particularly effective, but they are not an unalloyed good. They can often be worse than a simple lecture.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by TedDoesntTalk on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:58PM (#32063819)
What are you even talking about? Have you had any of that classes or are you speculating? I had years of college classes with under 10 students — some with 5 or fewer — and never experienced what you’re talking about.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by throwawaylinux on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:30PM (#32064871)
> I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me.

A foundation of the bloated academic and teaching industry requires that that professors can not teach more than a small number of students at once, or at least not teach them well. And that people who were taught in schools with smaller classes that were more expensive must be better. All claims about teaching and learning should be considered with that in mind, especially when it comes from the industry itself.

That being said, interactivity with professors probably works better in most other settings than a lecture format.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by lthornberry on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:34PM (#32064104)
This kind of thing is much more likely to happen in the discussion section of a large lecture class than in a small seminar, because the discussion section is likely taught by a graduate student with little prior teaching experience.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by echelon on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:45PM (#32063119)
In my three student organic chemistry III class, the professor had each of us reading ahead and taking turns teaching the material ourselves. We'd be corrected for mistakes, of course, but it was very much a fire drill. We moved a lot of electrons.

That was quite the course.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by zerohp on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:23PM (#32064019)
I’ve had amazing large lectures and poor small classes. It always came down to the individual professor.

I actually think that putting a bad teacher in a small class makes it worse than a large one.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bachmeier on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:51PM (#32061659)
There are real issues with using class size as they do. If you have someone that's really good at teaching a particular class, it's better to have them teach one section of 60 students rather than have a second section taught by someone that does a mediocre job. You also have things like TA help for larger classes, and that doesn't factor in at all. There's also the discontinuity thing. 30 is way better than 31, but equally better vs 300 - which obviously makes no sense. Overall, the measures they use for class size in these rankings are garbage.

The same is true for selectivity. It doesn't account for education at all, only the difficulty of getting in. But since it doesn't account for the applicant pool, it doesn't account for the difficulty of getting in either. You could use things like SAT scores as a measure of the difficulty of getting in and ditch the acceptance % completely. I work at an R1 that gets hit hard because we admit most applicants because, you know, we exist to educate folks, not to serve as a signalling device.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by poulsbohemian on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:41PM (#32061530)
>Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures.

Where is this anecdote coming from? A billion years ago when I studied at a small liberal arts college with small class sizes, professors were keen to share with us exactly why they were teaching from particular texts or why they had selected certain materials to make it clear that while the class wasn't being taught by that famous guy from MIT, it was still his book and materials we were using. I knew all my professors by first name, knew where many of them lived, had access to them anytime it was needed, and that's directly counter to my partner's experience at a large university.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by verst on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:12PM (#32061931)
Exactly this.

I went to a liberal arts college and had small class sizes (most around 9-15 in size, with the largest being 30) - I could see my professors 1:1 pretty much anytime I wanted, but there was also a preceptor (TA) for each class who didn't teach, but was available to answer questions related to assignments, projects etc. I went to the house of many of my professors for food or drinks too. Generally also was on a first name basis with professors.

The downside is that liberal arts colleges aren't research institutions and they are generally undergraduate only. This means you don't have as many choices for advanced courses. However, the professors at liberal arts colleges really tend to be there for the teaching and tend to enjoy that. One of my math professors was the head of the mathematical association of America and also authored the books on Analysis (the mathematical subject - not a data science thing) we were using.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by snowwrestler on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:37PM (#32063036)
Many professors at small liberal arts colleges still conduct research. And because of small class sizes, there is a good chance for a motivated student to get to know their professor and participate in that research.

There are also research consortiums of small colleges. I did original geological research 2 out of my 3 summers in a small college via the Keck Consortium:

https://keckgeology.org/

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by seanmcdirmid on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:57PM (#32063238)
I did research for a professor as an undergraduate at a big university. Once you are out of lower division courses and into your upper division major classes, your classes are much smaller and the professors start to know you as you see them around a lot.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by poulsbohemian on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:14PM (#32061962)
>The downside is that liberal arts colleges aren't research institutions and they are generally undergraduate only.

What's ironic about this though is how many universities won't accept their own undergrads into their grad programs... IE: they know that their undergrad programs are sub-standard but they don't seem to take action to improve them because the money and the focus is on the grad programs.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by cschmidt on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @07:41AM (#32068424)
When I applied for grad school (long ago) they just said it was better to experience another department. The undergrad classes we similar enough to the grad classes that it was good to see a different approach. So if you had a family reason (spouse's job etc) that meant you needed to stay in the area, then they'd let you apply. Otherwise, they wouldn't write recommendation letters to our department.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by seoaeu on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:39AM (#32066077)
It has nothing to do with the quality of the undergrad degrees. Even most top tier programs suggest going somewhere else for grad school because each department has its own research culture and it is good to pick up on more than one
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by lumost on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:14PM (#32061959)
My undergrad was at Umass Amherst, and I currently attend GA Tech's OMSCS program. Professors love sharing info on why they chose to talk about one topic vs. another, and by and large were happy to connect with any student motivated enough to attend an office hours or talk to them after class. I knew same personal information about the professors I worked with in the lab, but I don't generally see how that would improve my learning outcomes.

Class size naturally dropped as you got into niche subjects, of which there were many!

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by poulsbohemian on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:17PM (#32061995)
What I've heard anecdotal bears out what you are saying, IE: once you get through various mega weed-out classes, in many universities you still get the luxury of smaller class sizes and more direct access to professors as you reach those upper level classes.

Where I was asking for clarification was on the idea that somehow people were getting better materials and a better overall experience in thee 500+ people lecture hall type experiences, rather than those 20-person intimate learning style classes.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by lumost on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:42PM (#32063667)
My point was that a large 500 person lecture on "Intro to ElectroMagnetism" will be about the same as a small 20 person lecture in terms of material. The variability will come from

- Honors sessions - Extra seminars - Quality of Material - Quality of student support groups

All of these things get better as the class size grows. In my last class at Georgia Tech, there were 900 students studying a niche topic from a particular professor. Due to class size, there were ~12 TAs and an extremely active slack discussion group where people could get support.

A smaller class just means the professor has limited resources to assist students.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by jimhefferon on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:54PM (#32063207)
One factor I don't see anyone mentioning here is the student. Some people can do great in a large lecture and that's great. But I teach in a SLAC and often students tell me they don't think they could do well without the smaller courses.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by aquova on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#32061491)
Fewer students per teacher is widely seen as a positive thing. A greater percentage of the professor's time and attention can be given to any one student. I've definitely experienced this myself, it's easy to feel like just a number when you're in a large lecture hall of hundreds versus a small classroom of a few dozen.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bachmeier on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:02PM (#32061790)
I already said this elsewhere, but I do want to reply to this comment, because it demonstrates a common mistake that may not be clear from my other comment.

If you have a given teacher, in a given classroom, with a given amount of TA help, blah blah, so that all else is equal, and then you reduce the class size, the students will do better.

The problem is that all else is far from equal in the data used in these rankings. Instructor quality drops off rapidly as you have more sections. TA help falls. The classroom may no longer be appropriate for the class, etc.

The rankings are not able to capture the effect you're talking about.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by kragen on Monday July 11, 2022 @09:42PM (#32064565)
If what you need is lectures, you'd download them from MIT OCW or watch them on YouTube or Khan Academy. Or possibly just read the textbook, which may also be free online, or you can download it from Library Genesis (if that's legal in your country), or buy it used for US$35. Also, I can strongly recommend Wikipedia and... visualization videos that aren't exactly lectures, like 3Blue1Brown stuff.

You wouldn't pay tens of thousands of dollars in tuition for lectures unless you were the kind of person that universities like Columbia try very hard to not admit.

Classes, however, are very valuable. You can ask questions when you don't understand things, you can talk with the other students to build shared understanding, you can get your homework graded and confirm that the things you weren't sure about on it were actually correct, you can take exams and test your skills. And those things are much, much better when there are 16 of you in the class rather than 128 or 512.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by ghaff on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#32061486)
For liberal arts? It's probably a pretty interactive format and smaller interactive classes are better than large classes that are more broadcast. (Often. I've also had great lecturers in the humanities.) But mostly don't look at many liberal arts classes (or case study, etc.) through the lens of an engineering lecture.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by deltree7 on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:49PM (#32061625)
It's a perfect example of reverse causation.

Great Classes Implies Larger Classes (pure supply / demand); Larger Classes doesn't imply Great Classes

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by mattwest on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:51PM (#32061656)
It's an interesting question, and that's probably why it ends up in so many econometrics and stats courses. You have the classic causality problem, along with ethical concerns of generating experimental data for such a study.

Controlling for as many of the relevant variables as possible, there does seem to be a strong negative correlation between class size and test scores. Beyond that, who knows, but it makes sense that small classes would succeed more often (at least up to a certain point of course)

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bachmeier on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:55PM (#32061711)
But...none of those studies justify a discontinuity at a particular value. And if they control for things like TA help, they cease to provide useful information, because in the real world TA help increases with the class size.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by bbor on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:36PM (#32061471)
Many courses rely on discussion!
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by Leary on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:40PM (#32063071)
One thing is closer interaction with faculty. Crucial if you want to apply for grad school and need letters of recommendation.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by dan-robertson on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:45PM (#32061572)
1) they aren’t rewarded for innovating

2) I guess they can actually by having massive classes in the spring and comparing to the fall.

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by nostromo on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:20PM (#32061263)
Gaming and manipulation should absolutely be addressed, but it seems Columbia was just straight up lying about their numbers, not gaming them.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by greymalik on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:40PM (#32062295)
Goodhardt’s law in action.
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by adolph on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:39PM (#32063648)
Goodhart's Law

The key problem of using a measure as a metric is sometimes referred to as Goodhart’s law. The law is based on a 1975 paper on economic regulation, and is typically paraphrased as “When a measure becomes a metric, it ceases to be a good measure.” When managing a system, this problem is critical, but is deeper than it at first seems, as I’ll argue.

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-...

Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by dccoolgai on Monday July 11, 2022 @10:12PM (#32064771)
Ctrl+f for "Goodhar" right away to see who called it first +1
Re:U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings by pishpash on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:36PM (#32063031)
What's that adage? Every metric that becomes an optimization target ...