News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:28AM (#31206402)
Oh yeah no doubt; I collate trends into reports for rich investors. Lately they have been focused on youth trends, and some numbers are wacky.

<50% believe in God/higher being, down from 80%+ in early 00s.

40% point drop in 16 year olds getting a license since the 80s as urbanization puts people closer to stuff and ride share appeared.

Youth participation in sports, especially full contact sports, had been going down since before covid which just accelerated it, leading to forecasts of a major contraction in commercial sports.

“Essential workers” are pretty fucking pissed millions sat on their ass with no clue how to feed or care for themselves, while being paid minimum wage. They are not showing the same allegiance to shit jobs and moving on.

We engineered away stability for JIT, covid came along and proved to many we live in a Banana Republic exporting memes of exceptionalism, while most people can’t grow a potato for themselves.

Given sentiment nurses, teachers, “essential” workers just experienced from their neighbors during covid, why not tell the so called gritty masses who melted down over hair cuts to find new solutions.

People who are not alive yet have no obligation to carry our sensibilities forward after we die.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by scrubs on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:04PM (#31207789)
I like these points:

* We engineered away stability for JIT

Yep. It would not kill us to recognize that globalization went 20% too far, and that supply chains in the US is good for us. We also have to deal with the fact that job loss v. cheaper goods has gone too far too. We need to swing back to a more US focused economy. Ex: I recently ordered brakes from a US company. They were out of stock of my model. I asked when it'd be back in stock. They said their suppliers didn't have the stuff. We're talking car parts: aluminum rotors, metal calipers, brake pads. We're not talking chips. Apparently this US brake company is just an importer and paper-pusher.

I think we also need to recognize that almost all real gains since 1985 have gone to the top 5%. Seen locally or tactically year-on-year that's not per se the rich's fault. But it nevertheless needs a course correction. Cheaper medical, education, housing is what other 95% could use. Congress is a part of the problem here too being more aligned with corporations instead of the middle class.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by cnelsenmilt on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:21PM (#31211271)
It's funny, because this should be a point of crossover for the (populist) left and the right. Basic nationalism on the one hand, "Buy Local" on the other. They all want the same thing, or close to it. The potential for alliance on economic topics like this is so blindingly obvious, and it's so frustrating that it gets derailed by "cultural" sideshows so that no one can talk to each other or realize they have the same interests ultimately.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dbingham on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:15PM (#31212086)
There is a framing in which they want the same thing, but each side wants to use a method to achieving that thing that is antithetical to the other. The left wants to achieve it by limiting the power of capital and corporations. The right wants to achieve it by limiting the power of democracy and restricting it to certain demographics. Each finds the other's method appalling.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by nradov on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:27PM (#31213095)
That doesn't really align any more. Some of the largest, most powerful corporations are now led by ideological leftists, and right wing politicians aren't shy about attacking them.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dbingham on Saturday April 30, 2022 @08:04AM (#31215385)
Which corporations are you thinking of?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by antifa on Saturday April 30, 2022 @07:34PM (#31220540)
There is a common misconception that being willing to market products at LGBT people is "ideological leftism". Even worse is if they think supporting a center-right candidate like Hillary Clinton is "ideological leftism".
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dh2022 on Saturday April 30, 2022 @07:08PM (#31220367)
Some examples: Disney, Netflix, Salesforce (Marc Benioff used to host fund raisers for Hillary Clinton), New York Times. Larry Page made donations to Democrat candidates, 88% of Google staff made donations to Democrats so maybe we can include Google as well?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dbingham on Saturday April 30, 2022 @08:23PM (#31220858)
Disney has supported basic rights for LGBTQ+ people. This is one of those things which pretty much isn't up for debate anymore in most other developed countries. Beyond that, Disney has been solidly pro-corporate, anti-union, and generally right wing in its policies. I'm unaware of any stances Netflix and Salesforce have taken beyond similar support for LGBTQ and lip service to "racism is bad". Again, as far as I know, their economic stances are solidly anti-union, anti-worker, and pro-corporate.

None of those are "leftist".

Staff support is entirely different than institutional corporate support. Is Amazon leftist because one of its warehouses just unionized? No, it fought (and is fighting) that union effort tooth and nail. Similarly, Google has punished staff who were too open with their leftist beliefs.

Nor is support for the Democratic party "leftist". The Democratic party is split between neoliberals (who would be considered right of center anywhere else) and social democrats (who would be considered center left anywhere else) for the most part (with some rare Democratic Socialists who might actually qualify as leftist).

Hillary Clinton is a prime example of this. Anywhere but the United States, she would be considered solidly center right. It is only in the United States, where Fox News, et al have dragged the spectrum so far to the right that anything less than neo-fascist or anarcho-capitalist is considered left, where you could even pretend these corporations had a less than rightward slant.

Edit: I will note, this dragging of the spectrum is one of many, many reasons why I try to avoid spectrum based labels (left/right, etc) and stick to actual ideological labels. There is no single "leftist". There are Democratic Socialists, State Socialists, Communists, various flavors of Anarchist, etc who all get grouped together as "leftist", but generally don't agree on much. The other group of ideologies that get grouped with leftist are those supporting historically oppressed minorities - antiracism, antipatriarchy, and pro-lgbtq+ rights. Again, these are discrete ideologies and while people who subscribe to one often subscribe to the others, just as often they don't.

Similarly on the right, neo-facist, neoconservative, paleoconservative, evangelical theocrat, and anarcho-capitalist (the proper term for US libertarians) all get grouped together under the heading "right". When many of these ideologies are (or should be) completely at odds with each other.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by LargoLasskhyfv on Sunday May 01, 2022 @08:26AM (#31224465)
But, but, but... can someone like her be wrong?

[3840x2160px jpg of Shannon Bream] https://gn-imgx.fubo.tv/assets/p14696422_i_h8_ae.jpg

[1080x1080px jpg of Shannon Bream] https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/65/08/f46508d597bef8ddb558...

/me crawling back into his hide, making fox noises ;->

Re:Is everything falling apart? by dh2022 on Saturday April 30, 2022 @07:11PM (#31220392)
Am I the only one that thinks corporations really pulled a veil over the American people's eyes? And that Republican and Democrat parties really differ only on social issues, but when it comes to economics they both favor the corporations? My investing strategy has been to stay in the stock market until there is a constitutional amendment that forbids money in politics. Until then corporations will continue to buy the Senate and Congress (and Supreme Court too which is no longer a-political and thus can be bought)
Re:Is everything falling apart? by rnk on Sunday May 01, 2022 @01:35PM (#31226907)
Corporations and black money from rich people giving to american political parties does provide an endless pressure on both parties to cater to the needs of rich people and companies, of course. But it's not that simple. The republican party has been the party that supported large companies directly, but the populism of Trump and culture war pushed most recently by DeSantis in Florida shows they are happy to score points against say Disney. The democrats have been pushing for people to have nationalized health insurance if they want it, which would definitely reduce the power of corporations - at the same time the dems go along with needs of big business very frequently. Yet dems support unions, repubs are very against them.

I agree with you that the core of this is money in politics leads to money having too much influence with politics. On the supreme court, I think that republican federalism has control over the court, that's the clear place where the 'ideology' of dems would lead to different results. But this isn't a secret, the parties encompass multitudes of views, because we squish all views into two fairly narrow groups with our accidentally designed for two-parties political system.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by furbyhater on Friday April 29, 2022 @09:29PM (#31212549)
The problem is that they are both lobbied / paid for / bribed by the same companies / interest group, which seem to have more long-term commanding power over the evolution of US society than the elected president, so whoever you end up electing won't make as much of a difference. Similar to the time of Standard Oil etc., the rules have changed less than one might think. Maybe the real dilemma in US politics is that there are only two parties that stand a chance (and they both kinda suck, at different magnitudes), it's maybe a problem related to the election system and zoning?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by leto_ii on Saturday April 30, 2022 @06:39AM (#31214903)
> this should be a point of crossover for the (populist) left and the right

There are people who are trying to bridge that divide. I recommend Breaking Points and the whole ecosystem they're trying to build around themselves.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by blindmute on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:49PM (#31211499)
If they want the same thing, the laws will get passed. What actually happens is that each side proposes laws that are not even close to acceptable to the other side, proving that they don't actually want the same things.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by jackcosgrove on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:05PM (#31211626)
> We need to swing back to a more US focused economy.

> Cheaper medical, education, housing is what other 95% could use.

Eds, meds, and beds can't be outsourced, which is why they're increasingly too expensive for workers. Fix the first problem above and the second will follow.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:32PM (#31212205)
> Eds, meds, and beds can't be outsourced, which is why they're increasingly too expensive for workers. Fix the first problem above and the second will follow.

Education has been forcefully disrupted, by the institutions themselves no less: Zoom School proved what most of us knew all along, most institutions are just costly degree mills with little to no emphasis on truly educated their students. I personally attend a CompSci program from a university in the UK and it's quite flexible and affordable when compared to US standards.

Meds can and should be outsourced where ever possible: US,,Switzerland, Germany and France are the gold standard for reasons I don't time have to explain here, but there is no reason we couldn't just acquire their drugs and medical devices at wholesale prices from the aforementioned nations if the US pharma complex refuses to play ball and compete on price.

Thousands of nurses are on strike right now as we speak in Stanford, and many more are expected to quit the Industry entirely in the next coming years nation wide after being abused by the system during COVID.

This could be the perfect time to re-negotiate the terms imposed by the AMA and the Industry as a whole, ideally opening the roles to more practitioners and thus lowering the costs.

Housing, is sadly the last (investment) refuge of the dying middle class' networth in the US: I highly doubt that will be disrupted until 3-d printing of homes becomes common place, continuing the remote-first work place will definitely help in that, but right now the transition is that high paid tech workers can move and gentrify previously affordable areas.

I under stand that it's partly creative destruction, and to be honest as a digital nomad with no real need to stay in the US, I'm staying the hell out until these things are resolved--which I'm sure they will in time.

I see no real need to be in the US if my quality of life and standard of living is only going to continue to be impaired to prop up the decaying business models of archaic monoliths who have systematically reduced the standards of living for so many.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwawaygh on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:49PM (#31212303)
> Zoom School proved what most of us knew all along

I'm not sure how things are in the UK, but the sentiment in the US is that Zoom schooling was an unmitigated disaster.

I was bullish on remote education prior to COVID, but interacting with the output of remote learning (at work and in volunteer work) has completely changed my mind. COVID was nowhere near a perfect experiment, but what evidence we can glean overwhelming contributes to evidence to the "remote learning sucks for at least a majority of students of all ages" side of this debate.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Saturday April 30, 2022 @04:00AM (#31214216)
> I was bullish on remote education prior to COVID, but interacting with the output of remote learning (at work and in volunteer work) has completely changed my mind. COVID was nowhere near a perfect experiment, but what evidence we can glean overwhelming contributes to evidence to the "remote learning sucks for at least a majority of students of all ages" side of this debate.

I feel it's still rather early to say that, we're still on at the optimization level but it's clear things definitely need to be improved (I still haven't received my final scores despite knowing I have 1st honors for my first year with a plugin that has a SQL lookup), but with that said I also got to sit in Master level lectures in AI and ML at Stanford with Dr. Andrew Ng while I was attending my intro courses and for not much money I could have gotten credit for it, too.

I think this appeals most to autodidacts as we get to choose what and how I want to learn, which as a self-taught programmer helps a lot to stay motivated. I'm on a Performance based admission enrollment: previous fintech founder, with professional experience in a mega-corp after being head-hunted for said fintech startup.

It could also be because I was so deeply disillusioned with my first BSc in Biology that I see this as a more suitable outcome for a working professional; I had launched my 2nd business my Junior year of HS and it was starting to get quite a bit of traction in the middle of my Freshman year. University was always my plan B and I treated as such, but since I was paying for it I valued flexibility over actual substance--my discipline and focus as a cellular and molecular biologist was widely used in research but despite going to a good research university in the middle of the Capital of biotech (San Diego) it was woefully underwhelming.

I still speak with my one of my Biochem professors and things haven't progressed much from back then, either.

In my experience after having worked at a megacorp in tech that came from an open-source project (Bitcoin, or Blockchain) I just don't think the on-campus model has done much to earn my trust either. People with MSc and PhDs were showing some incredibly sophomoric mistakes with even basic things like annotations that I thought were understood when you started to make learn to make commits on github. I could make a prototype with limited supervision, despite being forced to do it in Soliditiy which remains a horribly buggy lang, where as they couldn't do much without lots of hand-holding from someone that was forced to learn how to code from free tutorials, youtube videos, hanging out #IRC and tons of hours on Stack overflow.

I self admit I'm not even very good as a developer either, I just knew what I didn't know and knew where to look and how to ask the right questions: which is something I took away from a lecture in a PhD level Virology class I sat in by accident my senior year in University.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by underlying1941 on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:09PM (#31212730)
3d printed houses are a silly idea. Cost of construction is not the problem, the problem is zoning, NIMBY, low interest rates, and tax policies that favor long-term owners.

See also: Shipping container houses.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Saturday April 30, 2022 @04:04AM (#31214235)
> 3d printed houses are a silly idea. Cost of construction is not the problem, the problem is zoning, NIMBY, low interest rates, and tax policies that favor long-term owners.

I think it's part of the problem, consider the massive boom/bust cycles and material shortages that occur in this Industry. I used to do framing in the off-season of my farming apprenticeship and I can tell you cost of construction and labour is a MASSIVE cost because things always run longer than expected.

I think that 3D printing can achieve several things, but you're right the latter issues are a major problem in major cities in SV, but honestly that place is such a cesspool that I don't even put it into my calculus anymore.

As Starlink gets rolled out more and more, I think development in more rural areas will seem more favorable than major cities.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by scrubs on Saturday April 30, 2022 @07:03PM (#31220325)
You're right - cannot be outsourced. Then it'll fall to US labor which is more expensive.

Now, on the other hand, if I was running Congress or the Executive branch I'd do a Consumer reports on steroids for "eds, meds, and beds" (a nice rhyme BTW - borrowing it) which would,

* publish medical costs (now mandated to be available I believe) and ranking them

* publish costs of 4 year education by basic degree category vs. expected income and ranked so student loans are NOT forgiven while students are helped and advised to not spend stupid amounts of money on dumb degrees with no ROI.

* While theoretically government student loans help the borrower not the school, there may be a perverse incentive for some schools to raise tuition and board if they think students can afford with loans

* And good lord, would it kill us for the Fed to negotiate prices down on pills? Not it would not! I'm annoyed that private companies threaten the public with higher prices and/or less innovation. I say, let's see where it goes!

* Maybe the federal government should make generics. I mean if the private sector doesn't play nice, take competition to them.

The larger point is that in meds the consumer has fundamentally less control than say a customer purchasing a service. In a typical setting the consumer knows more about the price and price spectrum going into the sale, and the servicer needs the client to pay. So they both gotta get along. In meds the billing prices are less clear and the paperwork for billing goes between the servicer and insurance company. I do not like that. I want the medical provider to know I have the money, and if I don't know or like what's going on, prompt payment is a question.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by tbrownaw on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:53PM (#31213216)
> I think we also need to recognize that almost all real gains since 1985 have gone to the top 5%.

Cars are a lot safer now and last longer. I think houses are bigger. The Internet is new. Most consumer electronics are new, and TV's are way better.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Raptor22 on Saturday April 30, 2022 @04:07AM (#31214254)
Who captures most of the profit from these better devices?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by Tepix on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:37PM (#31208342)
> ...and some numbers are wacky. > <50% believe in God/higher being, down from 80%+ in early 00s.

I guess teaching kids to trust in science and not in imaginary friends is slowly paying off.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by JKCalhoun on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:54PM (#31209238)
OP didn't say kids trust science though. It could be they reject everything. :-(
Re:Is everything falling apart? by heavyset_go on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:16PM (#31209510)
Rejecting organized religion for any reason is a step in the right direction.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by coldtea on Friday April 29, 2022 @04:20PM (#31210160)
Or that's a facile thought, that doesn't take into consideration second order effects and utility, only whether "god is true" or not...
Re:Is everything falling apart? by celticninja on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:54PM (#31211539)
Organized religion is a different kind of societal harm, where personal religion can be good or bad, organized religion will always be a net negative.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by tbrownaw on Saturday April 30, 2022 @12:05AM (#31213255)
> organized religion will always be a net negative.

There are clear benefits to organized social stuff. For whatever reason, religions appear to be more effective at this than secular groups. One of the more "fun" theories I've seen is that this is because religious beliefs are often nonsensical and costly.

For large scale events, I'm not convinced that nations that tried to do away with organized religion got better outcomes for it.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Tepix on Sunday May 01, 2022 @04:37PM (#31228431)
What are you comparing religions against? Boy scouts? Sports clubs?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by coldtea on Saturday April 30, 2022 @12:34PM (#31217208)
Actually, it's organized religion that can be good or bad. Personal religion is a personal affair, which seldom concerns society. But organized religion has been critical in the establishment of laws and customs, ethical change, societal norms, national expression against opression, etc.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dukeofdoom on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:27PM (#31211779)
Organized religion helped to defeat Communism, and tempered dictatorial control of many despots in the middle east. So your statement is far removed from reality.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by underlying1941 on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:12PM (#31212746)
Seems to me it would be more accurate to say that dictatorial despots helped temper organized religion.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dukeofdoom on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:33PM (#31213128)
This only works to your benefit if the despot is on your side. Even if you are in the inner circle, despots tend to be very temperamental and murder their own supporters on whims of insecurity. So be careful what you wish for.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by ElectricalUnion on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:22PM (#31212136)
> Organized religion helped to defeat Communism

So it literally did nothing, because Communism doesn't exist in real life?

> tempered dictatorial control of many despots in the middle east

[citation needed]

Re:Is everything falling apart? by dukeofdoom on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:34PM (#31212861)
Organized Religion is literally the only organized opposition left under dictatorial rule. Even tyrants have a hard time going around murdering clerics. But you go ahead and believe what you want.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by 93po on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:59PM (#31211979)
> Organized religion helped to defeat Communism

Looks like this is helping the argument that religion is a net negative

Re:Is everything falling apart? by nradov on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:57PM (#31213229)
How so?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by 93po on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @09:30AM (#31248056)
I'm a communist sympathizer
Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwawaygh on Friday April 29, 2022 @09:11PM (#31212437)
> Organized religion helped to defeat Communism

The cold war propaganda was ratcheted down some time after Gen X; to a super-majority of under-30s, even conservative ones, this probably sounds more like a knave's laugh line than a sincerely held belief.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by dukeofdoom on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:32PM (#31212852)
If that's the case, they have no clue what they're talking about. The Pope literally helped to organize and support the main opposition Solidarity movement. With many churches across the world actively working to end it.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwawaygh on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:58PM (#31212353)
Organized religion constrains and directs group dynamics. That's not a defense or indictment of religion; it's just a fact.

Getting rid of organized religion does not get rid of the fundamental aspects of human cognition that give rise to certain types of group dynamics.

Since the 1800s, non-theists have warned that getting rid of religion is not an unmitigated good. "God is dead" was a warning.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by mbg721 on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:59PM (#31212364)
So...a desperate attempt to invent God from whole cloth?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by mistermann on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:47PM (#31209828)
Careful...delusion comes in many forms.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by rhacker on Saturday April 30, 2022 @02:24PM (#31218041)
They still have imaginary friends on facebook though. At least god has morals. We haven't replace those and the number of mass shootings seems to be going up as belief in god goes down.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by Tepix on Sunday May 01, 2022 @04:38PM (#31228443)
You don't need god for morals (contrary to what many believe)
Re:Is everything falling apart? by rhacker on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @11:37PM (#31256467)
When you're talking about an individual, of course. When you're talking about a population - what is replacing that?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by antifa on Saturday April 30, 2022 @07:27PM (#31220480)
It would surprise me if there were any statistics that didn't indicate the opposite of your implications.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by ryukafalz on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:09PM (#31211654)
> <50% believe in God/higher being, down from 80%+ in early 00s.

> 40% point drop in 16 year olds getting a license since the 80s as urbanization puts people closer to stuff and ride share appeared.

As a young-ish person neither of these seems particularly “wacky”, and if places actually are re-urbanizing to any significant degree I’d say that’s a good thing given the changes we need to make to address climate change. Doesn’t feel like they are in the moment though.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by shrimp_emoji on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:54PM (#31212331)
If anything, believing in God/higher being is wacky. :p (And reminder that the U.S. is the most religious highly developed Western nation by far.)
Re:Is everything falling apart? by drugstorecowboy on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:51AM (#31206731)
> “Essential workers” are pretty fucking pissed millions sat on their ass with no clue how to feed or care for themselves. They are not showing the same allegiance to shit jobs and moving on.

They never had allegiance, they didn't leave shit jobs because of fear and the fact that moving between 2 minimum wage jobs likely wouldn't improve their circumstances. People are switching jobs because its an option now where it wasn't before and it's a good way to make more money. Do you honestly believe that pre-covid people worked at McDonalds because of their desire to provide food to people?

> We engineered away stability for JIT, covid came along and proved to many we live in a Banana Republic exporting memes of exceptionalism, while most people can’t grow a potato.

This is progress. Do you believe a world where everyone grows their own crops to feed themselves is an improvement? People don't grow potatoes because it is a waste of their time when you can buy a giant bag of them for next to nothing. Something only possible because of the modern JIT economy. What you call stability is actually inefficiency and waste in disguise.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by briffle on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:03PM (#31211092)
Its not progress. Your car plant now needs a truck worth of car bumpers every day, when they take 4 weeks to ship from overseas. Any disruption means that your whole plant is now idle. But because of accounting rules, it made companies look much better off if they got 2 trucks of bumpers every day, rather than have 28 trucks worth of bumpers sitting in a warehouse. Much more risk, but sure does help up that earnings per share to help the CEO with his bonus based on stock price.

Remember how hospitals didn't have PPE, because they could always get more shipped in 2-3 days? Works great. Until it doesn't.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:57AM (#31206827)
People are not concepts. There’s a real difference in QOL between an office worker and a retail worker.

You can ramble off the memes etched into your meat based tape recorder all day long; others do not owe putting agency into routines you prefer to avoid.

Such sentiment approaches thought policing. You are still one of seven billion to those other meat bases tape recorders.

One cannot wave away reality for philosophy.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by tastyfreeze on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:35PM (#31207377)
The last two years have shown younger generations that JIT is not resilient. Some level of self sufficiency is a requirement for stability and resiliency. Past generations learned this lesson with some portion of the population starving. There aren't any farms within 500 miles of where I live. If we can't get shipments from outside people are going to starve. This realization of supply chain fragility is what many people have come to after seeing some items absolutely unavailable at stores. Each community must grow some amount of food locally or their continued survival is reliant on there being enough food to make it profitable to ship food thousands of miles.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:41PM (#31212262)
> The last two years have shown younger generations that JIT is not resilient.

I'm a millennial and I worked for 2 of the big 3 German Auto manufactures in Supply Chain and Logistics and then went to work for a US megacorp, I can assure you: many of us of from all ages have been sounding the alarm since of an imminent crisis since at least 2016. No one cared, the MBAs in collusion with the executive board were too busy asset stripping and optimizing business models for short-term gains and massaging PnL sheets to make it look like the future was filled with endless profits.

The reality is that accounting displaced it's responsibility on to the SC and Logistics side to the absolute limits to the determent of accurate forecasting and modeling in order to keep the 'make believe' narrative alive.

> Each community must grow some amount of food locally or their continued survival is reliant on there being enough food to make it profitable to ship food thousands of miles.

To be fair, 2020 marked a high-water mark for CSAs in the US [0] due to the COVID shortages, sadly it was soon forgotten afterward. People have short-term memories, and the appeal of outsourcing this vital component of keeping Society functioning has little effect on people until it's often far too late.

0: https://www.small-farm.com/wp/2020/04/24/2020-csa-shares-sol...

Re:Is everything falling apart? by inglor_cz on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:27PM (#31207281)
"Inefficiency/waste" and "slack" are very different things.

"Waste" is running an O(n^2) algorithm on a task that already has O(n logn) solutions suitable for the same dataset.

"Slack" is having 100 USD cash in your pocket even if you do not immediately plan to spend them.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:00PM (#31210540)
This isn't progress, it's exporting the work that has to be done, someone has to grow potatoes. We have exported that hard work to poor people across the globe at horrible cost. Cost to the environment, cost to stability, cost to geo-political safety. Someone has to have their hands in the dirt, we act like it's progress because it's cheap and fragile because we don't have to do the work. Is it progress to pay artificially low prices on beef or bananas because poor people in the global south are destroying the rain forests to raise crops? Cause that's the only way the modern JIT system works right now.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by pasabagi on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:05PM (#31211108)
Eh, first world countries produce a lot of food. Farming is generally heavily mechanized. Nobody needs to have their 'hands in the dirt'.

In fact, I expect most potatoes will not be touched by a single human hand until they reach the person who actually cooks and eats it.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:44PM (#31211452)
That's a huge part of the problem, farming shouldn't be heavily mechanized in the way we do it. Monocrops, pesticides, fungicides, and huge feed lots all have terrible environmental costs. Even aside of Climate Change, soil erosion is a massive problem.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by pasabagi on Saturday April 30, 2022 @04:35AM (#31214370)
I used to be sympathetic to this line of argument, but I'm no longer so sure. Organic farming has lower yields, so to feed the same number of people, you'd have to bring more land under cultivation. That would presumably outweigh any environmental advantages you get from using less chemical pest control.

Second, the extra people you employ, aside from the obvious mind-numbing drudgery and hard labour you're ruining their lives with, would have a carbon cost.

Third, I can see that some pest-control chemicals are bad for the environment. However, it seems also clear that the demarcation line between eco and non-eco is not the same as the line between organic, and non-organic. In fact, it seems like there is no relation at all. There are many chemical pesticides that are not environmentally damaging, and many traditional farming techniques are environmentally damaging.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Saturday April 30, 2022 @10:43AM (#31216438)
Actually if you look at no-till and permaculture it 100% can have the same or higher yields per acre. The process of farming also doesn't have to be mind-numbing in this case. The combination of AgTech/Robotics and no-till/permaculture could produce vastly larger yields vs Organic traditional farming.

That's for soil based farming, personally I think Hydroponics (raising plants in water with no soil), Aeroponics (Hydroponics but grown in vertical towers), and Aquaponics (closed ecosystem using fish to fertilize the water the plants are grown in) are the only real way to feed a growing population and not destroy the environment. The Netherlands is already the leading European exporter of food, here is a great youtube video that touches on some of the ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5clOYWsNhhk

Bottom line is that traditional Organic farming isn't the answer anymore than modern factory farming. AgTech is something I'm passionate about and I honestly believe that if we don't adopt more modern science will we face a large crisis in our food systems sooner rather than later. Some crops will need to be soil based (grains and related crops mostly) but nearly everything else grows faster, more reliably, and with out the need for chemical treatments. There are a large number of Hydroponic and Aquaponic farms already in operation but the percentage is still very small.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by pasabagi on Saturday April 30, 2022 @12:47PM (#31217311)
Isn't that more mechanization, not less?

Aside from the no-till/permaculture stuff (which has been around for decades now, and has never seemed to take off), what you are talking about is ultra-automated, extremely centralized farming - and in general, I kinda agree that it's a part of the future.

One issue is just that if you're trying to convert solar energy into calories, you naturally want to spread out over a large area (a field) then use an efficient process to do this (photosynthesis). You then want to make these calories easy to process with machines (monoculture), and to defend them against pests (sprayers), etc. So there are advantages for traditional farming that are rooted in simple physics and economics, and a lot of that won't go away.

I do think the use of robots to apply pesticides in a more targeted manner is probably something we'll see more and more of, but I think for most crops, building a super-controlled green house is probably never going to be economical.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwawaygh on Friday April 29, 2022 @09:16PM (#31212467)
Getting rid of those things would at most double the farm payrolls, which is still a tiny minority of Americans. For the most part, monocrops, pesticides, and fungicides have HUGE economic efficiency incentives ($ ROI / acre) even if you subtract the contribution to labor efficiency (humans / acre).
Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Saturday April 30, 2022 @10:46AM (#31216459)
That's only true if you don't place a $ value on the environmental impacts.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by breakfastduck on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:09PM (#31207027)
Your 2nd point is complete nonsense. Something can be stable, inefficient and wasteful all at the same time.

Just because YOU think 'progress' is making something more efficient & less wasteful at the cost of stability does not make it fact. I, and probably many other people, would consider it a foolish approach. Progress, to me, would be making the food industry less fragile (i.e. more stable).

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:48PM (#31212298)
> Progress, to me, would be making the food industry less fragile (i.e. more stable).

How much so? FOr all the talk of techno-utopian ideals amongst the HN crowds, it isn't until you reach the 'I'm burned out, so I'm going farming' phase of a tech worker (I did rather early at 26) that most here will take any level of consideration in making any effort towards that end.

For most, it seems like a contrarian past time to argue the merits of conventional vs organic food becase: 'carbon is carbon.' Not realizing the underlying aspect of most of the local and organic movement is to strengthen the food supply that had been vastly consolidated by the pharmaceutical corporations in the late 70s who filled your plate with pesticide-laden franken-food shipped from all over the World and made us more food insecure (in non=processed junk) and diseased than ever in the US history.

In short, simply going to the farmers market once in a blue moon to have a story to tell here isn't living up to your rhetoric, and it seems that salary/TC alone isn't enough to compel some of the most well paid workers in the US to opt for making the food supply less fragile at all.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by rabuse on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:57AM (#31206836)
"Waste of their time". Is binging a Netflix series more important than having survival skills?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by heartbreak on Friday April 29, 2022 @04:40PM (#31210334)
Surviving a societal meltdown is not a goal of mine, so yes.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by dragonwriter on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:36PM (#31211403)
> 40% point drop in 16 year olds getting a license since the 80s as urbanization puts people closer to stuff and ride share appeared.

We’re just going to ignore the trend of states eliminating general licensing for that age group and replacing it with time-, purpose-, and passenger-restricted provisional licensing that happened between the 1980s and now as a driver of that trend?

Re:Is everything falling apart? by basisword on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:09PM (#31207029)
>> 40% point drop in 16 year olds getting a license since the 80s as urbanization puts people closer to stuff and ride share appeared.

Is it urbanisation? I've noticed this trend in the suburbs in my country too and there seem to be a couple of reasons:

1. Driving tests have gotten progressively more difficult and more complex over the last 10-20 years.

2. The cost of learning to drive is insane and getting more expensive.

Personally, I put off learning to drive and now that I'm in my 30's I'm finding it very hard to justify the cost and time investment necessary, despite wanting to get a license. Until I need it, I think I'll continue putting it off.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by svachalek on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:21PM (#31207189)
Hmm, I don't know what country you are in, but this doesn't sound like the US at all. There's a recent spike in the cost of driving due to gas prices and car supply, but afaik driving tests here have always been fairly trivial and still are.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by heavyset_go on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:14PM (#31209499)
The states that I'm familiar with require a number of hours of supervised driving before allowing teens to get their licenses, along with the enrollment in certified driving schools. That can be both expensive and time consuming, especially if parents are working and don't have the time to do supervised driving with their kids.

The skyrocketing cost of living all over the country means that parents must work more, sometimes multiple jobs, in order to make ends meet.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:37PM (#31207392)
Not OP, but I can confirm old country made it super hard lately. On the other hand, IL DMV seems to give away DLs like they are candy.

Anecdata only; if anyone has data, I will happily retract this statement.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by georgeecollins on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:46PM (#31209819)
>> IL DMV seems to give away DLs like they are candy.

In the USA DLs are by far and away the most common form of identification. Many people don't have passports, just DLs.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by ars on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:59PM (#31211052)
You can get a non-drivers ID in the exact same place, in the same way, just without the driving test.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by Kon-Peki on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:37PM (#31211409)
Yeah. I can back up the OP's claim with some anecdata as well. If you've ever had a license in IL, you can pretty much guarantee they'll give you a new one with no testing right now.

I know 3 people that have renewed in the last 6 months. They all commented that the experience was weird. They'd be told that they would need to do all sorts of exams, but never end up having to do them. They would just get the new license.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by ars on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:15PM (#31211698)
I've lived in a lot of places, and I've never once had to take any kind of exam to renew a license. Not sure who told them you need to do that - I don't think that's a thing in any US state, and probably not in most countries either.

Renewal of a license is mostly just updating the photo.

You can also transfer licenses between states with no exam. Not necessarily between countries though, some allow it some don't.

I think the OP was talking about an initial license though - for the most part exams are not very hard, you just need a basic level of skill, and some knowledge.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by BeFlatXIII on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:20PM (#31208045)
> Driving tests have gotten progressively more difficult and more complex over the last 10-20 years.

If true, this is a massively good thing.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by 1123581321 on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:16PM (#31211707)
That seems in doubt as young drivers are not improving (we would see lower auto insurance rates if so.)
Re:Is everything falling apart? by lrem on Saturday April 30, 2022 @11:00AM (#31216558)
A Swiss colleague was doing his pilot license at the same time as his son was doing a driver license. Both were about the same price, but apparently flying a Cessna is somewhat easier than driving a car.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:17PM (#31209525)
I don’t just use opinion polls, but the sources for the explanations are opinion polls.

Top responses to “why not get your license” point to availability of public transit, ride share, viability of walking, or biking, all of which are not an option for folks beyond the suburban fringe.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by bombcar on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:51PM (#31209878)
Can you even get a license at 16 anymore in all states? I know when I was getting mine two decades ago it was already getting to the point where people were saying “I might as well wait until 18”.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by paulmd on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:43PM (#31211448)
IMO the only real downside of waiting till 18 is that your insurance rates are gonna be sky-high for the first few years regardless of your age when that happens. If you've held a license for 2 years with no accidents then your rates are gonna be cheaper, regardless of whether you actually drove anywhere.

That's offset by teen driver education being a fucking racket though. The entire thing is just a scheme to extract a grand from mommy and daddy.

Wait till you're 18 and suddenly the need for that course and the hours of supervised driving will vanish. Pass the driving test and the written and boom, there's your license.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by ryukafalz on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:14PM (#31211692)
You don’t think the fact that immature teenagers operating fast, heavy vehicles is dangerous factors into that at all?

But sure, driving education requirements should be more thorough across the board, not just <18.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwawaygh on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:19PM (#31208036)
Your observations about minimum wage work and globalized JIT supply chains are, I think, pretty valid.

> <50% believe in God/higher being, down from 80%+ in early 00s.

Source? The only recent poll I could find on this was a 2020 poll from Pew, and in that poll the number is still over 80% [1]: "more than eight-in-ten American adolescents say they believe in God or a universal spirit."

> most people can’t grow a potato for themselves.

Not new, especially if meant literally, but also even as an abstraction. Non-farm employment has been WAY below 50 percent for most of our country's history. The inflection point was in the mid 1800s.

Incidentally, I know how to grow potatoes thanks to rocky west virginia soil.

I'm not sure why I would, though. Spending a lots of time and an acre of land on a personal vegetable/fruit/spice garden makes tons of sense in terms of quality and price. Growing your own potatoes is just silly in every way unless you either LOVE potatoes or have land that's not productive for anything else. But even then there are probably better options.

> Youth participation in sports, especially full contact sports, had been going down since before covid which just accelerated it

This reeks of "Bowling Alone".

Contact sports are in decline because we learned a lot about concussions. Just like bowling leagues died because we learned a lot about smoking and drinking in a previous generation. People aren't "bowling alone"; they stopped bowling because they stopped drinking and smoking, and for most people bowling was a thing to do while drinking/smoking during the winter months. People didn't stop socializing, they just stopped spending their free time in the town's primary smoke+alcohol+child friendly indoor space. Lanes were replaced with places like coffee shops and gyms.

> leading to forecasts of a major contraction in commercial sports.

Maybe. But there's also way more televised skiing/climbing/dirt biking/etc. than there was in the 90s. The MBA/NFL/NBA cartels aren't owed an audience, and shifting attention to other sports doesn't necessarily portend a decrease in interest in commercial sports.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/religious-be...

Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:39PM (#31208368)
The conversations I’m in are not simply focused on brain trauma; the resource cost of hauling around teams and gear is substantial. Conversations at homes on “Main Street” are more frequently referring to multiple reasons for a decision, not reducing it to one or another.

Same goes for traditions like coin and paper money; they consume a lot of stuff and energy. That’s become a repeated talking point when polling people why they are interested in crypto, which was unexpected.

The data models I’m asked to build include more than just opinion polls though, as it’s felt by the folks I work with opinions are biased by media, anxiety of going against the grain, and frankly, lack of imagination and considering alternatives on the part of the public.

See a quote commonly attributed to Adam Smith about extreme division of labor resulting in humans dumber than animals; there’s no exploration across contexts; a farmer is a farmer and that’s it. Proper Anglo tradition of staying in lanes dictated by aristocracy.

Generational churn won’t end reality itself, or be so dramatic we stop using English. It will curve agency away from old forms of agency to new. A lot of people freak out about that.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by rsanek on Saturday April 30, 2022 @04:18AM (#31214300)
> Youth participation in sports, especially full contact sports, had been going down since before covid

Do you have a source for this? From what I could find, participation has been roughly flat for the last ~20 years.

https://health.gov/sites/default/files/2019-10/National_Yout...

Re:Is everything falling apart? by throwaway6734 on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:46PM (#31207524)
>We engineered away stability for JIT, covid came along and proved to many we live in a Banana Republic exporting memes of exceptionalism, while most people can’t grow a potato for themselves.

This is hyperbolic. The US is not a banana republic. Why would you expect the average person to need to know how to grow a potato?

Re:Is everything falling apart? by asdff on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:02PM (#31207749)
Replace potato with any old piece of handy info, like home or car maintenance. A lot of younger Americans (myself included) have little practical knowledge, so everything needing knowhow in this generation must be outsourced.

Compare this to my grandfather's generation, he knew how to frame houses, plumb, electric work, auto work, gardening, etc, and he was not alone. If he needed something done you'd get four of your buddies and work on the project for the weekend instead of hiring a contractor. In my dads generation fewer people knew these things but still, a lot of people learned from their dads. In my generation otoh it seems like no one knows any of this, and therefore any issue around the home or the car becomes this catastrophic repair since you have to hire a specialist who charges hundreds an hour because you haven't learned very much that's actually practically useful for your life.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by nvr22aat on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:43PM (#31208420)
This sounds a little rose tinted to me. I personally think for simpler tasks, much more information is available these days compared to older times. There's many resources on how to grow a potato (and other things) on the Internet.

For other tasks, some things have simply become a lot more complicated to work on. Electronics were a lot simpler in older times, for instance; swapping out a surface mount quad flat package will require a lot more "finesse" than swapping out a 1960s capacitor. Cars too have gotten more electronics and software. Despite this, there are definitely still people that have the skills to repair modern electronics and cars. (I will say that these types are often hampered by manufacturers that seem hostile to the idea of users being able to practically repair devices, hence the "right to repair" movement being a thing these days.)

Re:Is everything falling apart? by asdff on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:32PM (#31208999)
I'm convinced there's more noise but I'm not sure how much of it is really more signal. Consider growing a potato and searching for that term on Google. I'm betting a lot of articles are going to be somewhat junky SEO spam that's repeating the same few pieces of info. Whereas if you were to go to a garden center or library, and find a book or pamphlet on growing a potato, that's probably going to be great information and very comprehensive, and covers a lot more than those short articles ever do. This generation wasn't without good information. They were consulting things like the Haynes manual for their cars the same as your mechanic does today, or reading on the pros and cons of different truss designs from books available in the hardware store.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by korse on Friday April 29, 2022 @04:52PM (#31210460)
Information about 'how to grow a potato' and a season or two of experience working out the kinks of growing a small crop of potatoes on available land near you are two very different things.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by BlargMcLarg on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:32PM (#31208254)
You can still learn these skills. In fact, the wide access to knowledge should give you enough to learn these skills without ever having to ask someone else. The larger reality is a lot of these people don't need to learn these skills, so they won't, for various specific reasons.

Same way you can ask a ton of people gen X and higher how to open a Word document, many of them don't know. They don't even know where to get the information besides asking family and friends, because that's their modus operandi. Tons of human support still has a job only because these people can't figure things out without another person helping them.

Every generation currently alive has a large degree of learned helplessness. The areas where they are helpless just vary.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by kevin_thibedeau on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:14PM (#31211189)
The other limiting constraint is the capital needed to engage in some activities that were comparatively inexpensive a generation or two ago.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by jacobolus on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:31PM (#31208236)
If you go a few generations further back, your ancestors lived in crushing rural poverty but literally hand-made most of the things in their own house, with the rest produced by local craftspeople; grew/raised or gathered/hunted most of their own food; made their own clothing starting from raw materials; etc.

Your buddies today have dramatically greater material wealth due to worldwide supply chains and mass production, but don’t know how to turn an unshorn sheep into a blanket or sweater or build walls out of mud and sticks. Today it’s no longer worth even fixing most stuff because the labor costs to do anything as a one-off are prohibitive compared to buying a new one from a streamlined (capital and energy intensive) factory.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by mrexroad on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:45PM (#31211458)
I dunno. I’m early millennial and, due largely to money reasons, I’ve done the following myself in past 12 months:

- re-graded slope of dirt in back yard (by hand, oof), trenched and added irrigation (to code), and seeded a successful lawn

- rebuilt upper valve train on my minivan (5 failed hydronic lifters)

- reframed my garage, which had massive termite damage and wall was 1.5” out of plumb, roof sagging badly

- wired new 60A circuit for EV charger (to code)

- excavated (by hand) and replaced 10’+ section of sewer lateral

- rebuilt washing machine pump, added dynamat sound deadening so quiet when on calls in garage

- re-heeled my wife’s shoes

- designed / built custom bunk/loft/desk for my sons’ shared room (Baltic birch, flat packable, surprisingly beautiful)

- re-roofed and reflashed chimney to fix leak (then re-drywalled 1/5 living room ceiling, skip trowel texture)

- abs so on…

Not trying to humble brag, but I hadn’t done a single of those tasks before (except framing, drywall, electrical, plumbing, which I taught myself in last decade). Push comes to shove, people can get a book from the library.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by paganel on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:01PM (#31208644)
This [1] is worse than a banana republic, is society collapsing onto itself. Supposedly, inside a banana republic the family as an institution still holds some value, close friends and relatives still act like a de-facto safety net if the need arises. The people from that video have none of that.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOBoDT-3oM0

Re:Is everything falling apart? by scollet on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:23PM (#31210725)
You don't even need to know how to grow to a potato, you just need to be able to learn how to grow one.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:06PM (#31210591)
Because someone has to know how to grow the potato or raise the cow or plant the corn. Right now we (modern first world countries) export that to fragile processes far away. Generally at great cost, environmentally and to the people/countries we export form. See the Amazon rainforest, slave labor in China or Africa, or un-controlled overfishing.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by alar44 on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:36PM (#31210826)
You sure? I'm in the Midwest and absolutely surrounded by farms. Do you really think your beef, grains, and potatos don't come from the heartland? How in the world would that make sense?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by jaegerpicker on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:55PM (#31211018)
Yes the US supplies the majority of it's food. I was talking about the first world countries in general. Second the monoculture farming system the US is using creates HUGE environmental costs, it's not just about import/export. Beef feed lots with thousands of cattle packed together, chicken and pork farm pollution, monoculture (corn and soy beans) destroying soil, pesticides polluting and killing river ecosystems, and up to 40% food waste. All products of the JIT food systems. The rest of the western countries (except Canada which is similar to the US) are mostly food importers generally from the Global south (with Russia and the Ukraine also supplying quite a lot). I grew up in the midwest in a family of farmers and my wife grew up on a working small cattle farm. There are MAJOR issues with the US system, generally it's not the import/export part though. That's more of an issue in European countries (the Netherlands seems to be the major exception here). Palm oil is also a major factor in rain forest de-forestation, which is a major import in many countries:

https://www.worldstopexports.com/palm-oil-imports-by-country...

In general a food system that is industrial in scale has terrible costs, just not usually economic costs.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:00PM (#31210536)
The average person actually exists. They should have reality based skills and knowledge in self sufficiency.

Low effort consumerism, freedom to, takes freedom from others.

Freedom to be yourself cannot cost others freedom from the same. We’re a caste system that uses concepts like net worth as the measure instead of religious sigils and totems.

Freedom to sit at home on a laptop takes freedom from others in measurable ways; making less for work laptoppers want to avoid but need is kind of a joke system.

Remember millions of real people are being pinched harder and harder. That’s never ended well in human history. You can’t simply point at a philosophy and demand well understood biology to deal with it forever.

What’s hyperbolic is a defense squishy meat bags very much like passed squishy meat bags aren’t just larping the same old. That somehow magically it’s all different.

Keeping stats in the right place just makes truism out of political bias.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melatonic on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:01PM (#31207727)
A lot of those very much do not sound like "things are falling apart" to me
Re:Is everything falling apart? by oicU00 on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:16PM (#31207978)
Reality is not unzipping in that the speed of light is different. A lot of inner monologues, sense of belonging, hope for the future, as something like covid makes the masses see a minority who do none of the “real work” as dependents who somehow have far more comfortable lives.

Tech oligarchs who were all “Disrupt!” are now all “Wait not me! I’m a rent seeker now!”

It’s a predictable circle of life given the common and fundamentally unchanged from any past iteration over the last thousands of years, human condition.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by Melting_Harps on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:54PM (#31212334)
> Tech oligarchs who were all “Disrupt!” are now all “Wait not me! I’m a rent seeker now!”

It's always been an empty platitude from the SV disillusional masses: when the business model is 'grow at all costs, even if you lose money' in order to cash out on an over-inflated IPO, it was clear that it was never to disrupt anything. It was t:o build something seemingly novel, raise funds to fight a war of attrition, moat, weaken the opposition and take majority market-share and then cash out.

Plan B is selling out to some megacorp/tech oligarch in order to rinse and repeat as a 'serial entrepreneur' until you eventually get to a position in which you get on a board and you can ossify something like Twitter, too!

Re:Is everything falling apart? by toomuchtodo on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:29PM (#31208196)
Not a wealthy investor but would be interested in your newsletter if it’s reasonably priced.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:20PM (#31208057)
It’s interesting, even if you don’t believe in a higher power, people that believe in God have far lower rates of depression and suicide, so if you try to optimize your life for happiness and mental robustness, it’s then logical to believe in a higher power.

This is an interesting manifestation of the incompleteness theorem. :)

Re:Is everything falling apart? by jhbadger on Friday April 29, 2022 @04:36PM (#31210300)
The happiest country in the world is Finland [1]. And two-thirds of them are atheists[2]. On the other hand, the most religious places in the world [3] are not on the happy list and most of them are desperately poor and miserable places.

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-... [2] https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/2... [3] https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-religious-countries...

Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:56PM (#31211026)
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/finland-is...

“ In one comparison made by the World Health Organization, the per capita prevalence of unipolar depressive disorders is highest in the world in the United States. Among Western countries, Finland is number two.”

Re:Is everything falling apart? by judahmeek on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:52PM (#31208531)
I don't consider basing my worldview on emotion-based fantasies mentally robust.

Is it possible that believing a lie increases ones chances of being happy & less depressed?

Sure, but that doesn't make it worthwhile.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by lampshades on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:45PM (#31209136)
Or maybe it's not a lie and believers are genuinely happier and less depressed.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by judahmeek on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:02PM (#31209338)
Every religion states that the other religions are lies, which means that, at the very least, the majority of religious people believe a lie as a fundamental aspect of their worldview.

Thus, you apparently can be genuinely happier if your worldview is based on a lie.

Still not worth it.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by lampshades on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:13PM (#31209471)
> Every religion states that the other religions are lies, which means that, at the very least, the majority of religious people believe a lie as a fundamental aspect of their worldview.

I don't think I've ever heard of a religion that is so airtight that it blocked any ability to reason on how the others might not be a lie also.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by judahmeek on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:08PM (#31213015)
And I don't think I've ever heard of an inclusive religion besides paganism & voodoo.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:45PM (#31209808)
“ Every religion states that the other religions are lies “

Almost no religions state this, it might be an interesting thought experiment to steel-man your arguments :)

Re:Is everything falling apart? by BEEdwards on Friday April 29, 2022 @06:19PM (#31211242)
Yeah, that's why they are constantly trying to kill each other...
Re:Is everything falling apart? by swat535 on Saturday April 30, 2022 @10:39AM (#31216412)
That's a false dilemma, you are corroborating the actions of extremists with the entire concept of religion. This sounds more like Hitchen's kind of an argument, which is fine for entertainment purposes but it is reductive and prevents us from having interesting philosophical discussions regarding God and religion.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by judahmeek on Saturday April 30, 2022 @02:34PM (#31218108)
Philosophy has no practical value, except for contrarians who don't want to admit being wrong.

History does though & the history of religion is that extremists who are religiously exclusive are much more likely to affect someone else's life due to their zealotry.

That why there are so many wars & crimes linked to religious exclusion.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Sunday May 01, 2022 @02:31PM (#31227452)
“Philosophy has no practical value”

This is a philosophical statement.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by quantum_magpie on Saturday April 30, 2022 @12:28AM (#31213340)
Believers are also encouraged to go their local cult leader instead of seeking professional help, so they are not included in these statistics.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:44PM (#31209796)
“ but that doesn't make it worthwhile “

From where cometh this objective truth? :)

Re:Is everything falling apart? by judahmeek on Saturday April 30, 2022 @02:39PM (#31218149)
There's nothing objective about "worth" & you obviously know that.

This subjective truth, however, comes from my value for integrity, which you apparently lack.

If you have no moral qualms about having a worldview based on lies, then more power to you.

Re:Is everything falling apart? by 22122 on Friday April 29, 2022 @04:53PM (#31210471)
Corelation does not imply causation. Maybe its that people who are prone to depression have some factors that make them less likely to believe in religion.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by mensetmanusman on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:18PM (#31208021)
Efficiency is always at odds with robustness, it’s unfortunate that people forget…
Re:Is everything falling apart? by kelseyfrog on Friday April 29, 2022 @05:01PM (#31210545)
It seems obvious, but I'll accept disagreements as a way to learn. While we aspire to build anti-fragile systems, there are real sort term incentives to building efficient fragile systems. Capitalistic incentives exactly like evolutionary pressures, have no responsibility to provide solutions which match our views on how the way the world should work, what's fair, and what's just. I find it personally difficult to assume that a business owner when faced with the a series of micro-choices each of which impacts profit could not choose to maximize profit the majority of the time even at the expense of robustness or anti-fragility. It's this garden path optimization that leads to catastrophic outcomes like supply chain paralysis or bankruptcy.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by sanderjd on Friday April 29, 2022 @01:42PM (#31208411)
Very interesting comment, but one thing I don't get is the sports one. Why would lower participation in youth sports lead to a contraction of commercial sports? Does low youth participation in making TV shows hurt the market for consuming them?
Re:Is everything falling apart? by lampshades on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:43PM (#31209116)
Everyone I know that didn't grow up playing sports also doesn't watch them.
Re:Is everything falling apart? by nobody9999 on Friday April 29, 2022 @07:11PM (#31211673)
>Everyone I know that didn't grow up playing sports also doesn't watch them.

An excellent point.

When I was a child, we just grabbed our mitts/bats/balls/frisbees/whatever and went out to play with our peers and came home when it was dark/raining/time for dinner.

Over the last 30 years or so, it seems that (not that such things didn't exist 30+ years ago) in most places it's difficult to engage in sports without an organized group/league, especially in places where greenspace isn't within walking/biking distance.

As such, most kids need adults to get them to/from sports and there's not very much in the way of pick-up games[0] and the like.

The lack of unstructured sport leaves many kids out of sports (given that parents need to spend time and money to get their kids involved and to/from such activities)

N.B.: The above is definitely a US-centric viewpoint.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick-up_game

Re:Is everything falling apart? by sanderjd on Friday April 29, 2022 @08:23PM (#31212140)
N=1... Very few people have ever played american football, yet it has the largest audience of all US sports.