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Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Fargren on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:18PM (#30994298)
Living in Spain, I love trains and take them over airplane when it's an option. However, trains are often around twice as expensive as flying for may routes. I know nothing about trains, but intuitively I would expect the opposite, and I really wish it was more affordable, specially high speed rail.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by simonsarris on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:24PM (#30994398)
This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war)

In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper than a corresponding train.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hguant on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:11AM (#30998534)
This is due to an international agreement post world war two (the 1944 Chicago Convention on Aviation) that agreed that fuel and maintenance parts necessary for _international air travel_ would be exempt from tarrifs and all taxes, barring a specific agreement between those to nations.

Domestic use is taxed, and at rather steep rates (look at the US!); however, because most flights in the EU are international, it would require both nations ok'ing a tax on flights between them. No one has gone through with this, and it's doubtful any one ever will, for a variety of reasons.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by aembleton on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:53AM (#30999479)
I'm surprised that the EU hasn't passed a directive to set a tax rate for aviation fuel for flights between EU countries.

I guess planes might just fill up their tanks in non EU countries and then carry the extra load around and be more polluting.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by DocTomoe on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:05AM (#30999548)
All that does is neuter domestic airline hubs and give more money to the Gulf (Emirates, Etihad, ...) or America-based airlines, which is neither good for the economy nor for the environment.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Gravityloss on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:56AM (#31000563)
Yeah. A global tax would solve it.

What about a really complicated solution, since a global solution is not going to happen:

1. Tax local fuel in EU. Everyone who fuels in European airports, must pay more

2. Tax European airliners fueling abroad - in countries that are not in the EU airline fuel tax agreement.

3. Tax inbound airliners according to the amount of fuel onboard

This would probably violate all sorts of treaties, would be hard to enforce and would have lots of all kinds of leaks... but food for thought anyway.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ant6n on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @06:22AM (#31000718)
How would that work? Would people fly from Paris to Berlin via Dubai rather than take the train?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by tijl on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:03AM (#30999538)
But that's exactly what hguant explains. Flights between EU countries are international flights and are therefore tax exempt under the Chicago Convention.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by aembleton on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:12AM (#30999924)
> barring a specific agreement between those two nations.

If every country in the EU agreed that every other country in the EU could impose tariffs on flights between them, then this should work.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by simonh on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:52AM (#31000159)
hguant also pointed out:

>barring a specific agreement between those to nations

An EU wide agreement would be an agreement between nations.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:26AM (#30999302)
Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters of jet fuel/hour, and will typically carry something like 150 passengers. That's 40 liters per person. Jet fuel is really pricey now, something like 80 cents/liter. This means that fuel costs something like 30 eur per flight per passenger, so 60 eur in a round trip.

Now imagine we slap a tax on jet fuel similar to the one on vehicle gasoline. This would mean that the price of jet fuel would go up by 50%. The round trip ticket Madrid - Paris now costs 170 eur instead of 140 eur. Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all.

Truth is, you can make anything competitive with anything else if you put heavy enough finger on the scale, but the reason flights are much cheaper than trains, despite being faster, is not because of lack of jet fuel taxes.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by lorenzfx on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:46AM (#30999442)
According to this [1], taxes on gasoline are much higher than 40 cents/litre (50 cents in Spain, 68 cents in France).

If you buy a train ticket in advance, you definitely are in that price scale. I looked up train rides one month in advance [2] and a ride from Madrid to Spain is now 175€ to 210€, right in the range of the train ride.

But hopefully, Europe-wide CO2 taxes will start to price in externalities and remove the finger from the scale in favor of flights.

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ [2] https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by einpoklum on Sunday April 17, 2022 @03:57AM (#31059300)
That ticket-in-advance thing is a part of the problem. For some unclear reason, some European countries let ticket prices skyrocket if you want to just go down to the train station and grab a train.

How is this a good thing?

And don't tell me it's important for planning loads: The schedules are mostly fixed anyway, and the usage doesn't fluctuate that wildly. In some countries, like the Netherlands, this is not a thing, and the national train (NS) behaves just like a city metro: You wave your pass walking on to the platform, and wave it again on the way out.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @12:06PM (#31085025)
This is called market segmentation, and in competitive markets (like, say, flying or hotels) it’s a good thing: it allows the carrier to sell early tickets at very low prices, often well below the actual marginal cost of the last seat, because these losses will be made up by people who have urgent need for travel right now, and so are much less price sensitive. That’s how, for example, RyanAir is able to offer those 20 EUR cross Europe fares, which is well below even just the fuel cost, much less other costs.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by alkonaut on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:22AM (#30999965)
I pay more than 100% in petrol taxes when I fill my car at $2.50/liter.

Also, CDG-MAD flight isn't really between Paris and Madrid but between CDG and MAD, which have some additional costs associated with transfers (assuming you are actually going beteween the city centers). So to be competitive a train ride might not need to have the flight price exactly, but can be a bot more expensive.

But a sensible policy would be that when trains are more expensive, taxes should be put on flying until they aren't (taxes directed to trains through subsidies, infrastructure investment and so on).

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by DocTomoe on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:11AM (#30999573)
> Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all.

Just to provide some data points:

Madrid-Paris by train takes about 17-20 hours and costs between 261 and 350 Euros. By plane, it takes about two and a half hours and costs (in your example) around 170 Euros.

Also take into account that for many international travellers, the time saved aspect is more relevant than the money saved aspect, as lifetime is a very limited and non-regenerating resource, and planes will win pretty much always. The idea of Europeans going from Madrid to Paris by train happily is a green pipe dream outside train enthusiast circles (for our American friends: How often would you say you take Amtrak from Chicago to New York, roughly the same distance, before you get bored of it?)

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jhugo on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:30AM (#31000028)
Sleeper trains change the calculus a little, because you can sleep as you travel. While they're a foreign concept to many people, they are reasonably popular in Europe — not just among railfans — and in many parts of Asia are a very typical mode of transport. Going to sleep in one city centre and waking up in another is often far more convenient than the air travel alternative, especially for the many cities where there is no fast+convenient public transport to the airport.

Furthermore, to make a fair comparison you need to:

- Include all the costs of the air ticket in the price comparison, in particular transport to and from the airports. Public transport is sometimes not available, or may not be convenient (e.g. with luggage or small children), and due to the large distance to many airports taxis can be very expensive

- Include all of the time involved in the flight — depending on the cities involved, your two and half hour flight could easily be 5+ hours city-centre-to-city-centre once local transport, check-in deadline, time padding for uncertainties etc is considered.

- Compare to a rail ticket for a specific train at a specific time, which is usually cheaper. The more expensive rail tickets often give you the option of multiple trains on a given day, which is a level of flexibility no air ticket gives you.

If we want to really make it a fair comparison you should also probably compare the price to the business class flight ticket, considering that even the lowest class of train ticket gives you a comparable level of comfort to a typical intra-Europe business class airplane seat.

If you need to get there as quickly as possible, the airplane is going to win on most (but not all) routes. But for many people, having fewer steps in the journey and being able to comfortably work during the journey can actually make the longer train option more convenient.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by DocTomoe on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:19AM (#31001575)
If we want the comparison to be completely fair, you need to take into account that hardly anyone lives in a major train station (or directly adjacent to one) and wants to travel to another major train station (or directly adjacent to one). More often than not, just getting to Paris is only a leg, then you need to get to Aix-en-Belle-Fountaine (fictional place, don't look it up), some 50 km away from Paris. Once you have that realisation, the same disadvantages exists for trains that you propose to take into account for planes.

> - Compare to a rail ticket for a specific train at a specific time, which is usually cheaper. The more expensive rail tickets often give you the option of multiple trains on a given day, which is a level of flexibility no air ticket gives you.

Virtually any airline outside of the no-frills-Ryanair sector happily sells you flexible tickets (often for price).

> If we want to really make it a fair comparison you should also probably compare the price to the business class flight ticket, considering that even the lowest class of train ticket gives you a comparable level of comfort to a typical intra-Europe business class airplane seat.

You must not have had the DB ICE4 experience. I'd rather jump off an office building than to sit in one of their second-class cars ever again. They are extremely space-constrained, and now they build the window walls slightly round (and rounder so than e.g. mid-range aircraft cabins), so you sit in there with an arm folded to the inside, like Ötzi. On my ride back, I shredded the already-paid ticket and bought a new one for First Class, which was only slightly better. No European airline even comes close to that awfulness (and yes, I've had non-Business Ryanair experiences).

Planes may be more uncomfortable, but at least they don't make you sit down for half a day.

> But for many people, having fewer steps in the journey

Are you aware how often you have to switch trains if you are doing point-to-point travel? Even within Germany, I have 4 switchovers between where I live and Berlin (that is, if I am lucky). With the plane? Sit down, stand up, Berlin.

> being able to comfortably work

Unless you travel First Class AND get a seat with a table AND somehow are able to work without internet, I don't see how that argument (which comes up every once in a while) works out for you. YMMV, depending on which country you are in.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jhugo on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @09:51AM (#31014651)
Most of your points are entirely fair, and my experience may have been unique (lived in the centre of a succession of European cities and used trains extensively throughout Europe for many years). Not every train is easy to work on, but with a minimum of planning I can usually design a long-distance journey such that the probability of being able to work during most of the trip is very high. My productivity doesn't depend on access to the Internet every minute of the day; for others the frequent loss of mobile connectivity e.g. on some routes in Germany would be a problem.

> Virtually any airline outside of the no-frills-Ryanair sector happily sells you flexible tickets (often for price).

This is not the same thing. I do not need to tell anyone that I have decided to take a later train using my open train ticket.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:40AM (#31001827)
> They are extremely space-constrained

Yeah and the amount of space is not really anything specific to the train. You can vary the amount of space in planes, buses and cars as well, and the price will follow, just as in trains.

There is no reason why space is "cheaper" in a train really, it's only the scheduling of few trips that make more space available, if you have more trips on the tracks, similar to a road, space becomes constrained, like you see in subway trains.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pg314 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:27AM (#30999675)
You can find a ticket from Madrid to Paris taking 10.5 hours for 226 EUR.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:32AM (#31000037)
And you can find round trip tickets Madrid-Paris on RyanAir for 50 eur, and for 100 eur on regular airlines. In my comment I took 140 eur as typical price of airfare. Typical cost of rail is something closer to 250 eur.

This also ignores the speed: if the prices were the other way around, with airfare twice as expensive as rail, I expect most people would still take the plane.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by chimprich on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:42AM (#31001255)
> Madrid-Paris on RyanAir for 50 eur, and for 100 eur on regular airlines

Airlines also typically charge for luggage, RyanAir charge extra for anything they can think of, including choosing a seat, and people booking at shorter notice subsidise those who book in advance. The cost difference for most passengers is probably smaller.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by DocTomoe on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:39AM (#30999725)
Can you? Seems that connection does not run regularly either when it comes to time (I checked Trainline and on another date there actually was a connection much like that) or for that pricepoint.

10.5 hours is still longer than 2.5 (or maybe - if you include security checkpoint time - 3.5 hours) by plane.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by egman_ekki on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:59AM (#31000579)
I think you're underestimating the travel to/from the airport. Madrid city centre to airport takes 45 minutes, you should be at the airport at least 2 hours prior to the departure, Paris airport to city centre takes another hour. Even if you're a seasoned traveller who pushes it and come to the airport just one hour prior to departure, you should still count with at least 3h overhead.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by DocTomoe on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:24AM (#31001636)
Point is: You don't often need to travel to the city center, and choosing that as fictional final destination is giving trains an unfair advantage. Often you need to somewhere NEAR Paris.

Also, and this may be related to the airports I fly out of, but I have hardly ever had planned more than an hour of time from entering an airport terminal to the gate. In TXL (sadly closed now for the much inferior BER), I averaged 25 minutes. At Stuttgart, I once managed to get there in 20. It all comes down to being prepared for security, knowing which security controls are often underused and picking up the right departure times. rel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyUGhXTsw

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:52AM (#31002755)
> Also, and this may be related to the airports I fly out of, but I have hardly ever had planned more than an hour of time from entering an airport terminal to the gate. In TXL (sadly closed now for the much inferior BER), I averaged 25 minutes. At Stuttgart, I once managed to get there in 20.

This is the saddest part of flying, that it really can take only 20 minutes, and instead of making it as efficient as possible, there's the opposite development, where the recommended time has gone from 1 hour to now at least two hours.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by egman_ekki on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @05:26PM (#31020511)
Very much depends on whether you need to check in luggage. My guess is that bag drop is closed 20 minutes prior to departure, but I might be wrong. Picking up luggage can easily add 15-30 minutes as well. Even on relatively small airports like Copenhagen, some gates are at least 10 min of brisk walking from the security, so 20 minutes is really pushing it without prior familiarity with the airport. But yes, it can be done.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by elproxy on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @03:57PM (#31019489)
Paris-Madrid is a poor choice, provided the French and Spanish rail gauge are different, meaning one needs to change somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian-gauge_railways
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by saddlerustle on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:03PM (#30994989)
Yes, but note usually around 30% of the ticket price of a european short-haul flight is already other taxes. This is compared to train tickets that include a 30%+ subsidy
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by wasmitnetzen on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:39PM (#30995447)
Airports, especially smaller ones, are heavily subsidized in Europe.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by KennyBlanken on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:42PM (#30997581)
The US airline industry is massively subsidized. Every country heavily subsidizes air travel.

The federal government spends $2BN/year on Amtrak and people lose their damn minds.

Meanwhile, at the FAA, nearly $12BN/year...and that doesn't account for all the local and state funds used to subsidize airports. Or Department of Transportation spending...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by nextos on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:13AM (#30998541)
Airlines seem to be a bad business in the long run.

I recall a figure from MIT's microeconomics textbook (Pindyck et al.) where they showed the aggregate profits of all industry since its inception were negative.

In EU, subsidies to airlines are an indirect subsidy to the tourism industry.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by criddell on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:35AM (#31001201)
In the US I think airlines are really in the business of selling air miles and credit cards.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by TulliusCicero on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:03PM (#30997749)
How does that subsidy look per trip, though?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by zdragnar on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:34PM (#30997935)
Amtrack moves just shy of 17 million passengers in a year. Airlines in the US do that in 8 days. That's works out to roughly 45x as many passengers, with only what, 6x the subsidies?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:33AM (#30999346)
I think if you don't look at raw passenger figures, but instead at passenger-miles, it becomes even more lopsided in favor of airlines.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:27AM (#31000391)
American rail is apparently heavily biased towards moving freight. This may even be a good thing, but it'll throw out the numbers if you compare train to car or plane and don't include it.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by afiori on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:12AM (#30999213)
> and that doesn't account for all the local and state funds used to subsidize airports. Or Department of Transportation spending...

probably this counts for at least a few billions

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pastage on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:28AM (#30998947)
How does that translate to carbon foot print per dollar.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:35AM (#30999353)
Most Amtrak trains are diesel powered.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by KarlKemp on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#30994649)
I believe this is a remnant of some complications with regards to taxation in an international context, similar to duty-free shopping.

Another consideration may be the consequences of possibly diverging tax rates for kerosene: if it's much cheaper to fill up in, say, Spain, than it is in France, it might become cheaper to carry the fuel for the return leg, even if the increased weight increases fuel consumption.

I'm not saying that any of this justifies the state of affairs. But it's possible to arrive at it even with mostly good intentions.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by missedthecue on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:37AM (#30998982)
A Boeing 737 consumes 2.28 L/100 km per seat. Fuel prices would have to go parabolic before airline tickets approached rail ticket prices (nevermind the time rail takes, even on the fastest routes)
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by mrtksn on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:55AM (#30999090)
I checked it out and the number seems about right(like up to 2x but not too much). So, to beat an airplane on fuel efficiency you need to be at least 2 persons on an extremely fuel efficient small car.

Surely, the actual costs calculations will need to include the infra and operational costs however if you check the energy consumption per passenger per distance[0], rail transport is always on the more efficient side of things.

Unless the infrastructure and operational costs of trains are higher than airplanes, I don't see how airplanes can be more competitive. Is the rail infrastructure that much expensive?

Maybe the argument can be made about convenience but on efficiency, trains look more efficient.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by 411111111111111 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:18AM (#30999252)
Trains are more efficient, but flights only do the most traveled routes generally, which is why they're usually booked out afaik. The same can't be said about trains usually, as they're also doing the outlying routes

It makes flying seem more competitive then it actually is, as trains usually aren't booked relative how much your transportation cost and instead the overall cost to also enable these almost empty routine runs

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:30AM (#30999331)
Why don't the trains just stop doing the empty runs on the outlying routes, then?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Scarblac on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:49AM (#30999455)
Because trains are considered an essential public service.

The people with only outlying routes nearby would be stuck without public transport, which is unacceptable. Commercial train companies only get contracts for the busy intercity routes if they also provide service on the outlying routes.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:17AM (#30999241)
> Is the rail infrastructure that much expensive?

Building and maintaining one runway at point A and one at point B is obviously much easier than building and maintaining a railroad between them.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by mrtksn on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:35AM (#30999352)
Is it? It's not that obvious to me at least. I suspect that it's more like function of distance, speed, landscape.

Airports also tend to be at the middle of nowhere, IMHO you need to incorporate the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure needed to get somewhere from that nowhere.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by PoignardAzur on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:48AM (#31000512)
Well, there are lots of other factors, but the general reasoning holds.

If you have ten airports, you have 10 * (10 + 1) / 2 = 55 airlines. If you have 10 train stations, you have only as many rail lines as you're willing to build, which means countries end up spending most of the effort and money on lines connecting major city centers.

Also, if you have an international airport, you're connected to every capital city of the world.

The logistic advantages of air travel are huge. Kerosene will need to get a lot more expensive before these advantages lose out.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by mrtksn on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:48AM (#31001297)
Sure, there are advantages but advantages are not one sided. It's not like choosing between Netflix plans where you pay 9.99$ for 2 screen and HD streaming and you can upgrade to 14.99$ package with 4 screens and UHD streaming. It's more like choosing between Netflix and Amazon Prime. You might get fewer options to watch but you also get one day delivery and some really nice content too. Often, you end up having both.

Also, trains can switch lines, disconnect, run on the same line back to back etc.

Just look at the Europe railways map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:High_Speed_Railroad_...

I suspect, with some standardisation and automation, you can end up having very good point-to-point travel options by train. Even better than airlines maybe. The current inefficiencies could be due to poor management and weak integrations. Can you imagine how great could be to have Europe and Asia wide rail network where automated carriages and rail switching systems coordinate to achieve travel from any train station to any train station?

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by joking on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:06AM (#31000982)
a plane also can make 4 round trips in the time the train takes to make 1, but on the other side, a train can move 500-600 people while the plane moves 160.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by 6510 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:16AM (#30999237)
I bet there is a good bit of mandatory service. You cant just periodically cut off a few thousand from their job here and there just because it satisfies investors.

The usual tracks either connect big cities or they run between urban centers and less populated areas. IOW run between every seat taken and almost empty.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by polycaster on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:51AM (#30999067)
According to [1] a passenger train consumes about 2l per 100km per person. Whereas airtravel takes 4.9-5.9l per 100km for short ranges below 800km.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftstoffverbrauch?wprov=sfti...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by doikor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:05AM (#30999157)
Most passenger rail in Europe is electric though.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by 6510 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:10AM (#30999201)
If you'd want to be truly accurate (or pedantic) electricity is not a power source. In NL the trains run on wind.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by osobo on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:42AM (#30999021)
I'm fairly sure a mode of transportation that can carry thousands and doesn't fall out of the sky when something fails has other benefits, even if the fuel/passenger ration should be worse (which I doubt).
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by alkonaut on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:34AM (#31000051)
I pay more than 100% fuel tax in my car, so a doubling for plane fuel doesn't seem so strange.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:43AM (#30998708)
You're saying this like it's a bad thing, why? Why should we tax common goods and services to the point they become luxuries only some people can afford?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ornornor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:49AM (#30998747)
Because of the externalities of flying, especially when compared to (electric) trains?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hoseja on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:41AM (#30999401)
... are miniscule but public-facing, thus suffering from the paper straw problem.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by lorenzfx on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:51AM (#30999468)
Sure, if you consider 3.5% of all green house gases miniscule.

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-aviation

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:52AM (#31003524)
3.5% is a very small price for what is one of the greatest human achievements: freedom to travel anywhere, on a layman's salary. Up until the modern age, world travel was reserved for the elites. Travel means freedom, and I strongly believe our freedom should come first when talking about GHG emissions.

Let's cut out the 96.5% first, then reduce travel.

The same with cars. Automobiles amount for a small portion of total gas emissions. All in all, passenger cars+ passenger aviation is about 10% of total emissions. Yet we heard complaints about these more than anything else. And not only complaints, but policies that want to fix this problem.

Why not focus on the 90%? Industry lobbyists love this state of affairs, we auto-flagellate for 10% and nobody says a peep about the elephant in the room.

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ornornor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:16AM (#30999610)
It's not only GHG emissions, but also noise, resource use (all these single use plastic everything they give you on planes), land use...
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:44AM (#31003428)
I am pretty sure land use for all those tracks, elevated rail beds, tunnels and bridges, stations is FAR higher than what the planes use.

Single plastic usage is such a red herring...every time you load up your car with gas, you put in 15 gallons, that is ~50 kilograms. A plastic straw is 0.4 grams, 125,000 plastic straws to amount to the same hydrocarbon footprint. This is a very rough math, but you get the idea. You can compensate for all your life consumption of straws and forks by not filling up once. Plates are heavier, but still marginal compared to everything else.

Another one: plastic grocery bags are 5 grams, that means one tank of gas is like 12000 grocery bags.

You could say: but at least use less single use plastic! Have you considered the alternatives? Would stainless plates weigh much more on a plane, and induce a higher CO2? Would food non-wrapped in plastic spoil more? (We throw away about 50% of all fruits and vegetables anyway).

GHG is a tough problem. Focusing on some token issues like plastic straws and plane travel for ordinary people does not solve it, it only makes it harder for people to accept it.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ornornor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:13AM (#31003768)
It might be a token problem but I think it's important to put this on the map for people to even realize it's a problem.

Also, trains (in large parts of Europe anyway) run on electricity only of which a significant chunk is from nuclear power, which doesn't emit anywhere near as much CO2 to move as many people as a plane would.

And the noise. trains are so quiet compared to planes.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:51AM (#31004304)
The problem is that people have a limited amount of things they can care for. You bombard them with plastic straws bans, grocery bag bans, 100% gas taxes, diesel poisons, shaming flying and you amount to maybe 1% reduction in GHG.

Then when it come to bigger hitters, like industry, building insulation, agriculture etc. you will get exhausted and poorer people that just can't take it anymore. And then you end up with people thinking this is all so futile and so scared of the future that they don't want to even have kids anymore.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by dzhiurgis on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:09AM (#31000252)
I suspect railway maintenance isn’t that great environmentally
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by stby on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:51AM (#31004301)
Around 2.4% of all global green house gas emissions, but responsible for 5% of global warming [1]. I wouldn't call it minuscule.

I think one of the reasons that aviation is so often in the spotlight in discussions about climate change is the existence of greener alternatives. Of course, those can't replace all flights, but they don't have to. Add to that the fact that air travel has exploded in recent years before Corona, and you certainly have to ask yourself whether taking five weekend trips a year from Zurich to Hamburg really improves our standard of living so much that we should put up with the downsides of it.

Personally, of course, I also like to travel and I think flying is a great invention that brings countries and people closer. Nevertheless, you have to be a bit critical about whether every flight is really necessary.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200218-climate-change-h...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by PaywallBuster on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:39PM (#30994657)
as I remember, the discussion went that if EU implemented a tariff on on jet fuel companies would simply load their planes elsewhere, e.g. Russia/Dubai where there's abundant fuel with little to no tax

not so relevant for the shorter trips intra-EU, but still a factor

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by verve_rat on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:53PM (#30994857)
If they did do that then the EU could introduce a tariff on the fuel they import when they fly back in.

There would be rules around a fuel flight vs a legit passenger/cargo service, assuming they don't want to tax the extra fuel left in a plane at the end of a flight.

But that seem like a pretty straightforward problem to solve.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hedora on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:34PM (#30997936)
Making it even easier to implement: Commercial airline weights are carefully tracked for safety and efficiency purposes already, as are fuel levels. All the information needed to levy such a tax is already available.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by dkural on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:45PM (#30994736)
It'll be more expensive to constantly fly back and forth to Dubai to load up than to simply pay the tax. Dubai is not that close to Paris. It takes about 7-8 hours. I don't know if you've been checking the news lately but Russia is out of the question for airplanes. They won't even return leased airplanes back anymore.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by aembleton on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:02AM (#30999521)
Switzerland, Norway and the UK are much closer though.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:37AM (#31004110)
Switzerland and Norway at least would very likely accept such rules and implement them as well.

I'm Swiss and at least in Switzerland such a rule would automatically apply unless the population would do a referendum. And that would lead to a public vote that would almost certainty lose.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by megablast on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:45PM (#30994742)
Most flights are local.

They aren’t going to russia for the Paris London flight.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by aembleton on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:02AM (#30999531)
No need, UK isn't in the EU.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by cinntaile on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:58PM (#30994927)
I bet this keeps a lot of national airlines afloat and they're already barely afloat, if they start taxing kerosene they'll require even more subsidies from their governments.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by thomasahle on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:15PM (#30996443)
The point was that if train was cheaper than flying OP would fly less. Of course that means we'd have fewer airlines.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by cinntaile on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:44PM (#30996693)
That wasn't really the point. He was surprised that this tax-free situation is not addressed and I just gave a (of many) reason why they might not want to change that.

I think your new point is optimistic at best. You would have to switch trains quite often and the time it takes would probably weigh heavier than the price. Especially between EU countries, within country flying is not really that big in EU.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by thomasahle on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:57PM (#31005259)
I meant this

> I love trains and take them over airplane when it's an option. However, trains are often around twice as expensive as flying for may routes.

But I agree that switching trains is also an issue.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pydry on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:39PM (#30995450)
There's also intense competition among airlines which cuts costs to the bone. That doesnt happen for rail.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jrockway on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:44PM (#30997990)
Not sure that's really true. Look at the low cost high speed carriers like Ouigo.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by im3w1l on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:37AM (#30998675)
With rail, the physical rail becomes an economic chokepoint. Who controls the rail came name his price. Now you might think that the same goes for airports, but often there are multiple viable choices. E.g. in the bay area you could use SF, Oakland or San Jose.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by petesergeant on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:09AM (#30998853)
I think this is probably the most accurate answer in this particular thread. There's essentially unlimited capacity in airspace, and while some airports are massively oversubscribed (LHR!) most are not. You can just keep putting planes up in the air in 3 dimensions where increasing the number of trains needs laying more excessively expensive physical infrastructure in 2 dimensions
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by evandijk70 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:59AM (#31000580)
I think it is actually the other way around and also not what GP said. Trains need more scale than planes.

Example: From Amsterdam Airport to Palermo, there are 2 flights per week (Friday and Monday). That is 300 passengers per week. It is a profitable to fly planes between these two cities, but a direct rail route including maintenance of the railway system would be far to expensive. This is partly resolved by stops along the way, but definitely not completely. The busiest direct railway routes (AMS-PARIS, AMS-LONDON, PARIS LONDON) in Europe are far from full, with one train an hour.

So the problem is not insufficient capacity, but rather that the scale is to small. I see electric buses playing a big role in the future to allow for better point-to-point connections.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by 6510 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:25AM (#30999295)
just 2 directions, beyond that you can (like with airlines) go bigger and more frequent. After that the proverbial landing strips become the bottle neck.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by black_puppydog on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:20AM (#30999257)
Except "who controls the rail" is often a (private or national) entity (DB Netz / SNCF réseaux) who will have to offer access to the infrastructure to pretty heavily regulated and uniform conditions.

Much like the idea of separating ISPs from the last mile infrastructure by the way.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by iggldiggl on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @06:19AM (#31012965)
Even with the network controlled by a "neutral" entity limited capacity means you can pretty quickly reach a situation where additional competition can't happen without actively worsening the schedules of the existing operators.

Timetabled connections are likewise impossible to set up with too much uncoordinated competition, because without making the connection times unattractively long they cannot really be set up between more than one train per relation (maybe sometimes two at a stretch).

Plus connections that aren't ridiculously padded (and therefore result in absolutely uncompetitive journey times) really only work with some sort of through-ticketing so passengers aren't left stranded if they do miss a connection after all.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by im3w1l on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:51AM (#30999467)
> Except "who controls the rail" is often a (private or national) entity

In Europe. But not in the US.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/railroad/us-and-european-f...

http://www.mapattacks.com/2015/01/who-owns-americas-rail-inf...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:13AM (#30999218)
Ouigo is a play by SNCF to avoid being undercut by a more aggressive low cost operator on the few profitable French lines. If you carefully look at their cost structure you will see that without the significant boost given to them by their parent company they would probably not be profitable.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by andy_ppp on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:35PM (#30994600)
“Follow the money…”
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Leherenn on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:30PM (#30994505)
Rail infrastructure is very expensive compared to planes. An airport is expensive, but once you've built it you're pretty much immediately connected to half the world. With a train station, you need a track to each surrounding stations, maintain them, and so on. Also, train doesn't scale down as well, it quickly becomes inefficient for the less dense routes.

People are talking about subsidies (by not taxing fuel for instance) for planes, but trains are also directly subsidised to the tune of billions each year. The rail network just costs a ton to build and maintain.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by occz on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:09PM (#30995093)
>but trains are also directly subsidised to the tune of billions each year. The rail network just costs a ton to build and maintain.

Just wait until you hear about how subsidised the infrastructure for cars and trucks are.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by julienb_sea on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:24PM (#30995282)
Construction of road infrastructure can be compared to construction of tracks and stations, and it's fair to say taxpayers foot the bill in full for both.

The difference is that trains operate at a loss even with high ticket prices and operational subsidies are necessary for market viability. That is not the case with car and truck usage.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by burlesona on Monday April 11, 2022 @06:03PM (#30995687)
At least in the US, local road networks in the suburbs and rural areas bleed money terribly, and as fuel taxes have not kept pace with inflation even the inner city streets and crowded highways can barely break even.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:54PM (#30997248)
Local roads bleed money universally everywhere, because pretty much no place charges tolls for local road use. Gas taxes do not cover road costs, because gas taxes are not by the same entities that actually build the roads, so there is no reason to expect it to be the case. However, and fortunately, road construction and maintenance is universally a small part of municipality budgets in US, typically under 10%, and very rarely anywhere close to 20%, so there is not much reason to worry about affordability of local roads.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by diordiderot on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:56PM (#30996792)
Like a growth Ponzi scheme
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by 2143 on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:33PM (#30998295)
> That is not the case with car

I felt like private cars (the ones that are not taxi/commercial) just stay in one place the majority of its lifetime.

Pre-covid, I had a 45 minute commute. The other 22.5 hours my car just stayed in one place. Engine off. Road trips unfortunately don't happen often for me.

Trains, trucks, planes, and even taxis are probably running/flying more than it's staying still.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by transportguy on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:16PM (#30997821)
In London, both roads and buses are subsidised from the income of the tube lines.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by TMWNN on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:18AM (#31000325)
>Just wait until you hear about how subsidised the infrastructure for cars and trucks are.

As others have told you, you are wrong.

US highways do pay for themselves (<https://web.archive.org/web/20130515013017/http://www.rita.d...>) (non-PDF version: <https://web.archive.org/web/20170712175437/http://www.rita.d...>), and help pay for other modes of transportation. Transit receives the biggest subsidy per passenger-mile, with rail and airlines in between.

(For those wishing more detail: From the executive summary (<https://web.archive.org/web/20170628114204/http://www.rita.d...>):

>*Highways*

>Users of the highway passenger transportation system paid significantly greater amounts of money to the federal government than their allocated costs in 1994-2000. This was a result of the increase in the deficit reduction motor fuel tax rates between October 1993 and September 1997, and the increase in Highway Trust Fund fuel tax rates starting in October 1997.

>School and transit buses received positive net federal subsidies over the 1990-2002 period, but autos, motorcycles, pickups and vans, and intercity buses paid more than their allocated cost to the federal government.

>On average, highway users paid $1.91 per thousand passenger-miles to the federal government over their highway allocated cost during 1990-2002.)

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Ekaros on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:39AM (#30999387)
Depending on country, they can be taxed multiple times more than investment in infra...
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by bigDinosaur on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:22PM (#30997864)
Rail can be used to make routes densify though. Air travel can never do this. The cost of rail has to be thought of in the context of an investment in a city or country (this doesn't mean 'go crazy building HSR' like some countries but then again many countries have no problems with approving road megaprojects that are terrible ideas so why not rail?). This is actually true of road infrastructure too, but there are a lot of negative externalities to roads that don't apply to rail.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by namdnay on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#30994638)
The major subsidy to planes is that you don’t have to clean up the CO2 you spew out
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by emn13 on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:08PM (#30995065)
But even beyond that - fuel and other power sources have been taxed well before climate change was a political issue, and jet fuel is exempt from all of that. It smacks of regulatory capture.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by BurningFrog on Monday April 11, 2022 @06:11PM (#30995756)
Yeah, rail infrastructure costs O(distance) while plane infrastructure costs O(trips).
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ant6n on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @06:27AM (#31000754)
Rail infrastructure forms networks.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by emn13 on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:42PM (#30994701)
Sure, but so are airports and so are roads. And all forms of infrastructure are sometimes prestige projects, and all are sometimes subject to political choices that while legitimate, in retrospect turn out to have been questionable.

It's possible that despite all that rail has higher costs - but it's also quite possible that the dominating factor is the unreasonably subsidized airline fuel. The tax-exempt status is absurd, especially given other fuel and power duties - not to mention that a reasonable accounting should be taxing fuel high enough to cover the costs of the climate-change externalities, which would result in an even higher price (as it happens, due to cloud formation, air travel causes even more warming than ground based fossil fuel consumption, though I'm unaware of whether that's a significant difference).

If indeed an honest accounting were to reveal that flight is still cheaper: great! But I seriously doubt it; and in any case it's certainly time to stop subsidizing air travel like this. Let the sector succeed or fail on its own merits, not by virtue of tax shenanigans.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by lostlogin on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:38AM (#30998682)
Many airlines are subsidised, and their pollution (sound, air, sea, land) is effectively a subsidy as the airlines don't pay.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:45AM (#30998724)
Trains are also noisy, at least as much as planes. As for pollution, consider how much land is taken from nature for tracks...there is almost none for airplanes, in comparison.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by black_puppydog on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:24AM (#30999288)
When you stand next to a train track yes à train is noisy. But a plane will cover literally a whole town with its noise. Very different.

I was just in Frankfurt yesterday and the noise is substantial, in the residential neighbourhood I visited it was the main source of noise during the day.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by arethuza on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:17AM (#31000324)
I live 600m from a fairly busy train line and ~14km from Edinburgh airport - the latter is much noisier.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:08AM (#31003717)
Maybe you are under the flight path?

My point was that train lines are millions of miles/km and run through the center of settlements, by design. Almost everywhere in the world, unless you live in a suburb or village, you have a high chance that you will hear trains multiple times a day.

I think there are less people under flight plaths than near trains.

I guess it depends on luck how noisy they can be. I used to get woken every night at 2am by one fucker.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by arethuza on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:24AM (#31003922)
From what I can tell it is take offs - aircraft coming in to land, even though they are much closer, tend to be inaudible.

It might be because we are relatively high up (about 100m) and most of the distance between us and the airport is over the sea.

Edit: Just checked on a map and when most aircraft take off from Edinburgh's runway into the prevailing wind they are pointing pretty much directly away from us which might make it more noticeable.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by flavius29663 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:44AM (#31004212)
As far as I know, airports try to setup the operations to have planes descend over cities, and climb away from them, to minimize noise. Sometimes this is not possible because of winds, so there will be a reversal.

Sometimes it's not possible to avoid climbing over cities because the city ended up engulfing the airport (e.g. Heathrow) - so they will alternate directions to give various towns a break.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:01AM (#30999517)
Yeah the only use case where trains make sense to me, is really heavy cargo, where the lower friction of the wheels make it more efficient. That's a use case where both flying and trucks will be at a disadvantage. Transporting people in trains doesn't really make sense to me. You can fly if you need to go fast, take a bus if you have time, or drive a car if you want flexibility.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pg314 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:42AM (#30999739)
According to the Brussels Institute of Statistics and Analysis [1], in 2017, 34% of all commuters in Brussels commuted by train versus 36.2% by car. It might not make sense to you, but it does to other people.

[1] page 30 of https://bisa.brussels/sites/default/files/publication/docume...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:01AM (#30999848)
The train itself has to be heavier than the load just to stay on the tracks. It would only make sense if you already have an established cargo route, and you can in addition also reuse a large part of that track for people transport.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pg314 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:25AM (#30999977)
> The train itself has to be heavier than the load just to stay on the tracks.

Why would that be? A typical 110 ton capacity freight train car weighs 33 tons unloaded. It has no problems staying on the tracks.

Besides both buses and planes typically weigh much more than their freight (and planes need to lift all that weight 10km vertically), so I fail to see how that is an argument against trains.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:56AM (#31000172)
> Why would that be? A typical 110 ton capacity freight train car weighs 33 tons unloaded. It has no problems staying on the tracks.

I'm guessing at the numbers here but just to illustrate my point:

If an empty bus weights let's say 10 tonnes, and an empty train 33 tons. And the load of the passengers around 7 tonnes. So in total you'd transport 40 tonnes of train as opposed to 17 tonnes of bus.

Then obviously for that load rubber tires would be more efficient, and rail would be a bad fit.

There's a minimum load per cubic inch for trains to make sense, you have to have really dense cargo.

Like I said in another comment, subways in Paris run on rubber tires, it becomes especially inefficient with rail when there are frequent stops.

It would make so much more sense, especially in the US, to develop premium Tesla buses that could use the existing freeway infrastructure, than to expand rail.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Symbiote on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:18AM (#31001057)
The rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel rails is much, much lower than rubber tyres on an asphalt road.

From [1], the only comparable figures are the American train and the American bus. The bus is about half as efficient as the train.

There are similar figures further down the page ("German environmental costs") -- 0.25MJ/passenger-km for long distance rail, 0.85MJ/pkm for regional rail, 1.14MJ/pkm for bus service.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:58AM (#31001378)
> The rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel rails is much, much lower than rubber tyres on an asphalt road.

Exactly, and you need rolling resistance for traction. The heavier the load, the lower resistance you need, and vice versa, because the weight of the load increases resistance. Which is why you don't ship hay on trains, and don't ship iron on trucks.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pg314 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:10AM (#31002161)
> Exactly, and you need rolling resistance for traction.

No, you don’t. Look at e.g. gears: almost no friction, perfect traction.

> Which is why you don't ship hay on trains

No. You don’t ship it on trains because that is uneconomic. You keep your cattle close to your hay producing fields, where they can also graze.

Also, by your reasoning, an empty train would not be able to move?

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:21PM (#31004731)
Also the reason why trains can't run uphill, while cars and trucks can.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jollybean on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:46AM (#30999753)
Where there is enough population density and 'right of way' for trains, trains almost always make sense.

Flying is better for NYC -> Colorado - LA but trains are better for NY -> DC corridor, and frankly, probably all the way down to Florida.

There is the issue of 'downtown' and 'walkable cities'. If you arrive in Baltimore near an airport, you have to rent a car. In European cities, you hop on the Subway to the Hotel, that makes a big difference as well.

But Boston->DC is ripe for train transformation.

And 'established circuits' SF->LA->Vegas should be high speed - that California can't sort that out is really sad, it's a matter of organizational/systematic incompetence.

There needs to be kind of a 'civic buy in' for it to work

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:09AM (#30999899)
> Where there is enough population density and 'right of way' for trains, trains almost always make sense.

You will come really close to that if you build a road that has the same level of right of way, and drive buses. The benefit of (expensive) bridges and tunnels are not unique for trains. Some of the subway trains in Paris run on rubber tires.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by cryptoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:23PM (#30994377)
Same in the US. I would love to take the train from Seattle to SF, but, it costs so much more than a flight would, and takes a very long time compared. Sleeper cars make the price nearly double, and for such a long trip, train seats without a sleeper are somehow worse than plane seats.

I have taken many Amtrak short trips, like 1h, and 50% of the time the train leaves more than 1h late (and 100% it leaves late, some amount). So I leave my departure location after I was meant to arrive at my arrival location.

In 2005 I took a night train from Budapest to Belgrade, but not really - the ticket I paid for, the platform sign, the ticket agent, all told me that. But once on the train passing the border, the passport checker told me that the route hadn't gone to Belgrade in some time, and that I would be dumped at 2am in Novi Sad, where I was meant to buy a bus ticket. Tickets closed and Euros not accepted. Was a difficult time to resolve, but I bought overpriced Dinars from some travellers with my Euros and got a last minute ticket. Arrived in Belgrade to find 0 hotel rooms due to a football match.

I love trains. But the process needs improvement, just like airplanes. Long-distance travel without a car is honestly quite difficult in Europe and USA imo.

Planes will sell you tickets that don't exist and then pretend like a night in a hotel makes up for it. They abuse you at security. They treat you like trash and everybody deals with it.

Please make trains better, Amtrak, and EU. Please.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by lost_soul on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#30994654)
If I had to apply an "aggravation factor", air travel is worse. The train just doesn't seem to bug me as much. One difference is that when the train arrives I'm in the city center. When the plane arrives I'm at the airport.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jseban on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:47AM (#31002674)
When you travel by train you are treated like an adult, air travel treats you like a child and herd you around like cattle.

Getting a 100 dollar fine because you didn't click a button on a website, being commanded by uniformed people to "show your papers" over and over, standing in line waiting to stand in another line. Being forced to stand in crowded "designated areas". It's super creepy, gives me the heebie jeebies, like I'm being shipped off somewhere..

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hilbert42 on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:08AM (#30998503)
"Belgrade to find 0 hotel rooms due to a football match."

Once, I had the same problem due to a football match in Rome. In hindsight, how I got a bed for the night was hilarious but it wasn't at the time as I was dead tired (I'll spare you the details—I learned quickly that very strange things can happen in Rome).

A day or so later I was on a train from Rome to Vienna, the trouble was that by then many of those football fans were returning home so we all ended up together on the same train. To make matters worse, many of them were drunk. Suffice to say, Austrian Customs and border police were not amused, the train was delayed many hours.

See, you're not alone, we all have days like that when traveling in strange places especially so when crossing country borders.

"I love trains. But the process needs improvement, just like airplanes. Long-distance travel without a car is honestly quite difficult in Europe and USA imo."

I agree with you about the US and Eastern Europe, however you really shouldn't have any trouble in Western Europe—France, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, and Germany—even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Of course, here I'm referring to major towns or ones that receive a reasonable number of foreign tourists. As always, small villages and places that are way off the beaten track will be difficult no matter where you are (so are one and two star hotels problematic in such places as they are much less likely to speak English).

In particular, I found such travel by train in the US much more difficult than in Western Europe. It seems to me that since WWII all the once excellent (and traditional) railway infrastructure (such as railroad-owned hotels at or near railroad stations, etc.) has either been dismantled and or sold off, so one ends up at one's destination—even in large towns or cities—without any or minimal local support. Right, all this once infrastructure has been transferred, or relocated or rebuilt around airports.

I reckon the US will have a huge job in reversing the process (or duplicating the infrastructure as it once was around rail terminals), that is if it wishes to make rail truly relevant again.

Generally, Europe is miles ahead of the US in this area of public transport infrastructure.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jaclaz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @04:04AM (#30999868)
> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect).

Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about?

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hilbert42 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @09:35PM (#31022463)
> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about?

Apologies for laboring the (mostly) bleeding obvious in some of these points especially item 5, but it's only because I've seen people not bother to observe them and suffer the consequences (including this once-neophyte traveler—yours truly). :-)

Note: this post is too long for a single comment, so I'll post it in parts.

I suppose the definition of 'terrible' is important here. Anyway, here's some bits of advice gained from a few incidents that I've experienced in Italy, you be the judge of whether they're terrible or not. Whilst I've singled out Italian instances here of course most of what I've to say is pretty much common knowledge and general travel advice. It's just from my experience my comments are somewhat more applicable to Italy than to other Western European countries—although it's wise to consider other notable/problematic places, Amsterdam's main train terminus for instance. Better still, always consider any major train terminus where tourists gather as potentially hostile.

First, I must say I love Italy, its people and their culture, its cities and beautiful countryside not to mention its historical heritage—the Roman Empire, et al.

Anyway, here goes:

1. Always plan your trip to an Italian city when there's no major football match taking place (that's unless you are planning to attend the match). This is especially important if the match is between an Italian team and a foreign one (Europe's obsession with football is legendary, fans are passionate about their teams and are easily excited—'tis likely some wars have started over less drama). Visiting fans can be found all over parts of the city that you're likely to want to visit, and they can get very rowdy.

2. If You have to visit an Italian city when there's a football match on then make sure that you arrange your accommodation well beforehand as you can almost guarantee that every hotel will be fully booked out and you'll have nowhere to stay (again, this is very important if the opposing team is from another country as there will be many fans from that country visiting to see the match). I've learned this from hard experience. Moreover, sleeping overnight at railway stations is not only unpleasant but it's also dangerous.

3. If perchance you do arrive by train (or any other form of transport) and have not booked accommodation in advance when there's a football match about to take place then make sure you arrive early in the day. This is an absolute must, here's why:

My first trip to Rome was done on the spur of the moment and I had no idea that any football match was about to take place let alone that it would be relevant to my visit—nor (given the circumstances of the match) did I have the vaguest notion that one must arrive early in the day to be of paramount importance (if there's any chance at all of getting accommodation then one must be early).

As it happened my time of arrival in Rome couldn't have been worse, not only did I arrive just before a key football match was scheduled to kick-off but also I arrived very late in the day, around about 21h00. After phoning many hotels (all those with outlet facilities on the station as well as others listed on signboards), it was pretty clear that there was no remaining accommodation whatsoever left in Rome—or so I thought!

After the phoning exercise, which achieving nothing of note, I was standing around on the station's concourse and perplexed as to what to do next when I began to be approached by numbers of guys all of whom were offering accommodation. As I later found out they were lone operators and they spoke just sufficient English to get across the point that they were offering me accommodation. Their demonstrable (or apparent) lack of English was such that I was unable to determine exactly what type of accommodation they were offering (suffice to say their 'limited' English was to their benefit, not mine). It's clear these opportunists were well aware of the shortage of accommodation throughout Rome during football times not to mention the arrival of unsuspecting visitors such as me and they took full advantage of the situation.

Eventually after weighing up the situation and being somewhat desperate, I selected the most seemingly respectable offer. In fact, at no time was I ever told the actual nature of the accommodation although it wasn't for the want of trying (again, the language barrier was such that it was easier to give up—and I was damn tired into the bargain, by then I believed I'd accept any any accommodation—or so I thought). It was what happened after this that made me mention my earlier caveat 'if you're forewarned what to expect'. (I can elaborate further details if you wish.)

4. If traveling by train anywhere in Europe, especially so in Italy, then avoid any train that's traveling to a football match which is likely to be carrying football fans. Moreover, it's especially important not to do so on trains that are returning home from the match as the fans are noisy, boisterous and often very drunk. As mentioned elsewhere, not long after the match was over I took an overnight train from Rome to Vienna and it was full of fans who were returning home after the match (the match was between Italian and Austrian teams). It was a horrible experience to say the least. Returning fans misbehaved so badly that Austrian Customs and border police were not amused, they delayed the train for hours not to mention that they searched every inch of the train from one end to the other with Alsatian dogs at the ready (I've experienced such searches on many other occasions but this one was the worst).

<continued>

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hilbert42 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:10PM (#31023040)
...

5. If you're visiting Rome or any other Italian city no doubt you'll want to visit its historical sites (as you know, they're everywhere and hard to avoid). First, here's a warning to be careful to avoid pickpockets. On multiple occasions I've had swarms of very persistent kids swarm around me on the pretext of selling some grotty postcards or such and during the process they do everything possible to distract one and it's hard to keep track of what each one is doing. They're often in groups of six or more in number (and they're very common in and around Rome's main ruins). Moreover, some kids are very young and look harmless and genteel, but don't be fooled, they're not—they're all part of a well orchestrated team and you'll be done over if you're the slightest bit gullible and or not very careful. BTW, in this regard Rome was the worst of all the Italian cites I've visited.

Never leave your wallet, your smartphone and or your passport in the back or side pockets of your pants (or side pockets of your jacket). If you are wearing jeans then place valuables deep down in your front pockets, better still put them in a money belt that's under your shirt. Also, be very careful about looking after anything else that you're carrying, a camera for instance (it's also best not to go alone as members of one's group can keep an eye on each other).

Clearly, there's little point putting one's phone in an 'inaccessible' money belt, my solution for storing it safely but still within ready reach is to store it in the front pocket one's shirt. Warning however: as everyone knows, in recent years shirt pockets have atrophied in size to now being little more than a totally useless decoration. There are nevertheless several solutions: shirts from military disposals often have suitably large pockets, trouble is they either have no button or only a single button that almost everyone never bothers to button up. In either case when you lean over everything falls out including one's smartphone—crash, there's goes another screen, and that's the last thing you need on your trip. The best solution I've arrived at is to purchase several shirts of a suitable style well before one travels. Safari, trail/outdoor or nautical-type shirts that have both decent sized top front pockets complete with easy-close zippers—which you learn to zip closed by automatic reflex every time you put your phone back in your pocket—are, in my opinion, the best option. This extra effort might seem a nuisance but I can assure you it's well worth it.

6. The horrors (perhaps terrors) of diving in Italy. You'll get quite a shock when you first drive in Italy—that's unless you come from France, Germany or other country where maniacal drivers are commonplace—even then Italy has a special place on the maniacal drivers register.

First, there are only two speeds in Italy—stop and flat out. Second, don't expect Italian drivers to obey the road rules in quite the same way that you'd expect that drivers do in anglophone countries, US, UK, Australia, etc. Yes, they actually obey road rules (sometimes) but what they'd deem as obeying the rules is very different, and it can take some experience and time to get used to the differences (eventually, you'll get the gist and be OK—that's if you're not killed first).

There are three memorable instances in my life where I actually thought I'd die before reaching my destination: the first was on the autobahn from Stuttgart to Freiberg when one of my work colleagues—a German who'd migrated but who was back in Germany with me—was driving a small car that'd often get 'airborne' whenever he'd overtake trucks and that was as often as he possibly could (nothing in front of him was too much of a challenge). As the car was small and under-powered, overtaking was slow and dangerous (yet behind the wheel he still drove like a 'Fangio Mark-II', fortunately for me, like the real Juan Fangio, he had nine lives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_Fangio). Incidentally, my colleague once used to race Minis.

The second was a local incident I'll not mention further, and the third was my first experience on the Autostrada A1—the motorway from Milan to Naples (that first time I was on my way from Milan to Rome): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A1_(Italy). The small rental car I was in could hardly make 100 mph (≈160km/h) on a gentle downhill and just about every car and trucks would pass and overtake me at such speed that the vortex they created buffeted the car with such intensity that they made steering extremely sloppy. Moreover, if one were to travel slower than about 160 km/h then one would likely be rear-ended especially so in foggy conditions (and at the time there was fog on some sections of the motorway). 'Fog—what's that, only sissies would slow down for fog?†' I'm not a timid driver, nor do I scare easily when others are driving but as a novice whose first introduction to driving Italian style was on the Autostrada A1 was certainly a memorable experience to say the least. As they say, it was like being unexpectedly dropped in at the deep end without warning.

Here's another instance of the Italian motorists' driving style (I've already mentioned this previously some while ago). I observed this incident in the residential area of Florence. Here's the scene: the River Arno flows through Florence essentially cutting it in half, busy roads with large amounts of traffic follow along the Arno's banks for most of its length through the city. Whilst over a dozen bridges interconnect these roads on either side of the River there are many roads that run perpendicular to it but which do not intersect at points where the bridges are—that is, these perpendicular roads terminate in a 'T' intersection with the roads that follow the River.

Now picture this, I've left my hotel and I'm walking along the sidewalk of one of the roads that's following the Arno's banks and I come across one of these busy 'T' intersections and its traffic lights are indicating red in the direction I'm walking. An impatient driver—impatience is a common characteristic of Italian drivers—in one of the 'stopped' vehicles intends to turn left into the intersecting right-angled street but the lights are against him (a pedestrian 'walk' sign is green on that road so he has a red left-arrow light indicating that he must stop). He hardly stops—then just before the traffic lights and intersection he immediately veers left to bypass both the roadway and the lights. That is, he turns hard left and mounts the sidewalk not that far in front of me then he disappears down the intersecting side street whilst now still traveling on its sidewalk (technically, he's avoided going through a red light and thus he's not broken that law but no doubt he's broken others). This is what I mean when I say Italian drivers (anyway, a significant number of them) interpret the road rules in ways that we'd not normally expect.

However, that's not the end of the story: the moment after he disappeared driving down the intersecting street's sidewalk I heard a large crash. Upon arriving at the intersection and looking left I saw that he'd driven straight into a huge excavation hole in the sidewalk that was part of street maintenance work. What's more amazing is that when I'd gotten a little closer I could see that he wasn't alone as there were several other cars already in the ditch. That's not the only instance where I've seen Italian drivers bypass red lights in such a manner, however on those occasions there were no ditches around to catch them.

7. (This I've also mentioned previously.) I recall that when I visited the Colosseum in Rome, which incidentally is a fabulous place to visit (I could wax lyrically about it for hours), I came across something rather unexpected, that was the large number of discarded hypodermic syringes in and around the sidewalk that surrounds this monumental edifice. It seems the building wasn't only a huge tourist attraction but also it was a shoot-up gallery for local druggies (keep in mind, I've not been there for quite some time, so things may have been cleaned up since then). The lesson is that it's probably not a good idea to travel hippy-like in bare feet around any of these attractions (on my next visit I reckon I'll wear shoes with rather substantial soles).

There's more but that'll have to do for now.

__

† Not slowing down for fog is also a trait of Austrian and German drivers but from my experience they're marginally less gung-ho about it than Italians (they're more consistent drivers at high speed). I recall once being driven by an Austrian driver from Salzburg to Vienna on the motorway in not only fog but also sleet and rain at speeds in excess of 160 km/h (≈100 mph), it was another white-knuckle experience which would rate next down the list of those already mentioned. Incidentally, the trip was during the winter. When I suggested he slow down he retorted to the effect that 'I must be joking and that he'd be rear-ended in a second if he did that'. Seems these motorists' main aim is to keep constant speed, breaking not only results in rear-enders but one would almost certainly spin out of control on the icy road surface. Such driving isn't for the fainthearted.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jaclaz on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:15PM (#31043652)
OK, to sum up, terrible in Italy:

1) to find no place to sleep if not booked in advance the day of a major sport event

2) no really, do not try going in a city when there is a major football match without having booked some accomodation

3) if you really insist on going to a city when there is a football match arrive early

4) do not travel (in the event of a football match) by train

5) beware of picpockets

6) Italians drive fast and somehow impredictably

7) you shouldn't go bare footed

#1 to #5 and #7 are (IMHO) little more than common sense and apply to most if not all countries.

Maybe #6 is the only one actually related to Italy, though it probably applies to a number of other not-perfect countries, like Austria and Germany.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hilbert42 on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:31PM (#31048737)
"OK, to sum up, terrible in Italy:"

No it isn't. As I said Italy's a lovely place. It's just that more can go wrong there than in other Western European countries unless one's adequately forewarned.

"1) to find no place to sleep if not booked in advance the day of a major sport event"

In any city there can be problems with accommodation during any major event (sporting or otherwise) but from my experience things are more intense and or more complicated in Italy. I've been in other cities during major sporting events, Paris and Munich for example, and had no trouble getting accommodation at the last moment - but I've experienced the problem twice in Italy (albeit the conditions of each instance being somewhat different to each other).

"2) no really, do not try going in a city when there is a major football match without having booked some accomodation"

That's probably good advice anywhere. However, having lived in Europe, I've stayed in other non-Italian cities during football matches not having realized that a match was taking place until late into the event. Accommodation was easily available.

"3) if you really insist on going to a city when there is a football match arrive early"

That makes sense whether there's a match on or not. I don't know how much traveling you've done, but my experience is that it's often not possible to arrive early, same goes for being unable to book in advance (especially so if one's does a lot of city hopping, which has been my situation for work). Often things just don't go to plan for many reasons.

That said, I've never been caught out without any accommodation regardless of circumstance. Even that instance mentioned above in Rome I finally sorted out and managed to get accommodation (you'll note, I didn't say what eventually transpired (what actually did is much more likely to happen in Italy than elsewhere in Western Europe)).

The only other time I've come really close to having difficulty with last-minute accommodation was in Vienna (one time I arrived there unexpectedly several hours later than I did in Rome (around midnight) without any prebooked accommodation, that too was also solved after some effort.

"4) do not travel (in the event of a football match) by train"

Makes sense anywhere but generally Italy is somewhat less organized than say Germany is.

"5) beware of picpockets"

The only country/place where I've experienced overt trouble of this kind in Western Europe is in Italy and in Amsterdam railway terminus (no other place in the Netherlands has ever been a problem). Clearly, there are other places that I could mention where I reckon one could easily get into trouble if one wasn't careful but I never have (as always, I follow the rules I've mentioned). Even in Rome I was OK (and I was well aware of what was happening at the time they tried to scam me).

The only time I've had trouble was in Vienna (normally an extremely safe city, I know, I lived there for quite some time) and what happened was my fault (this wasn't the time when I was living there). What happened was that I arrived after traveling half way around the world and was really dead tired. I got into my hotel room, shut the door put my stuff down everywhere and had a quick rest. Trouble was I fell asleep and I'd not locked the hotel door (it didn't have a door that locked automatically).

While I was asleep someone entered my room and stole my wallet but nothing else was taken (they could have just as easily stolen my laptop and camera but they didn't). The loss was highly inconvenient as my credit cards were now gone and I'd not yet even had time to have an imprint from one registered at the front desk (as I said, Vienna is a trusting place, the comment from the desk was 'do all that stuff after you get settled'). Not having a credit card nor any cash, paying the hotel bill was then a potential problem.

What happened next was that I immediately cancelled all credit cards. Two days later the desk contacted me and handed me my wallet back. When I asked how they came by it, they said that several minutes earlier another guest found it just by the entrance of the hotel's front door and handed it in. All my now-defunct cards were still there so was everything else, driver's license etc, all except the cash—that being some $60 or so USD and about the equivalent $20 USD in Austrian Schillings (it was in the days before the Euro). There's about 13 to 14 Schillings to a Euro, so luckily my loss was pretty trivial.

"7) you shouldn't go bare footed"

Surprising many do! Especially so anglophone tourists on holiday. (Same goes for dress sense, once I was in Harrods in London with a group of friends, one decided to wear his skimpy beach shorts (which he also wore everywhere else across the UK) and he was promptly chucked out of the store at very great speed (he wouldn't take our advice to the contrary and that included his Mrs who'd told him earlier that he wouldn't get past the front door looking like that).

"#1 to #5 and #7 are (IMHO) little more than common sense and apply to most if not all countries."

True, but from my expedience Italy is significantly different to other countries in Western Europe, Eastern Europe is a different matter altogether, some countries there make Italy look like a model citizen.

"<...> though it probably applies to a number of other not-perfect countries, like Austria and Germany."

You're skating on thin ice here, what gives to the idea that Austria and Germany are 'not-perfect'? No country is perfect but those two are an absolute model when compared to some others I could name (which I won't do out of deference).

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jaclaz on Saturday April 16, 2022 @04:31AM (#31050700)
Well, my ice is seemingly thicker than you think, you listed 7 purely anecdotal points of which only one can be maybe considered country specific, and you managed to state how almost the same (re: speeding too much in your opinion) happens in Austria and Germany.

Rest assured that - notwithstanding the single episode you witnessed in Florence - it is not like every day tens or hundreds of cars do evasive maneuvers to avoid red lights and/or senselessly enter construction sites in Florence (or in Italy in general).

Traveling impromptu, particularly if you do not speak functionally the local language is asking for trouble almost anywhere, and as well pickpockets are common in many large cities all over Europe (those with the largest number of tourists).

If we go by anecdata:

1) some relatives of mine have been pickpocketed BOTH in London and in Barcelona

2) I have been refused accomodation (duly booked in advance, BTW) in Munich in the Oktoberfest period (due to some sort of overbooking, or mismanagement of cancellations, not really an issue as I was traveling by car and I managed to find a hotel only a few km outside Munich)

3) in three different occasions someone managed to throw up on me (yikes!), once on a bus in Berlin, once in a train in the UK and once on a Qantas flight to Australia

4) I once eyewitnessed a car entering the highway from the wrong side in France, making a front collision with a truck that was travelling in the right sense, and another time I saw the same happening (luckily with no accidents) in Switzerland

Hence:

1) beware of pickpockets in the UK and Spain

2) double and triple check bookings in Germany

3) be prepared to find in Germany, the UK and Australia (drunk) people that will throw up on you

4) be warned that drivers in France and Switzerland often enter the highway the wrong side

The world is a dangerous place, you'd better stay at home.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hilbert42 on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:04PM (#31073459)
Sure, my comment about Italian drivers is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are those who would disagree, especially so many Italians! :-) However, I came to my opinion not from just one visit to Italy but after having been there on multiple occasions both as a tourist and for work—and the fact that I had lived and worked 'next door' in Austria for some while.

Your comment made me think that perhaps I was overcritical so I did a quick search. Other than for some info about what tourists need to drive in Italy, this was the first hit in the list to my query: https://www.thelocal.it/20150326/why-are-italians-such-crazy.... Seems that just a few others agree with me (Italians included).

"Traveling impromptu, particularly if you do not speak functionally the local language is asking for trouble…"

In total agreement, one often experiences language difficulties especially so outside major tourist centers and larger cities. Even native speakers can get out of their depth the moment they cross their border (as I show below).

Avoiding two-star rated hotels/pensions and lower is also to be avoided (often I'd arrive at these hotels and be greeted by someone who spoke perfect English only to find that when that person finished his/her shift then there was no one else who could (I've some funny anecdotes about such encounters for another time). Any arrangements made with the English-speaker were often lost and confusion often ensued. Such confusion isn't necessarily confined to countries where one doesn't speak the local lingo, it can also occur when the natives speak English‡ by default!

Trouble is that for the average tourist Europe has too many languages for comfort (reckon percentage-wise not that many are linguists sporting six or more languages). I've some French and German, and they're very useful at times but of very little help outside Western Europe—Hungary and Serbia for instance (despite the fact that quite a few Hungarians speak German).

What's more the difficulties with language can be very localized. I recall one instance in Alsace when a group of us were in a restaurant and we tried to order meals in German only to be greeted with something gruff to the effect 'no comprehend', this was despite the fact that we had a native German speaker among us who eventually tried to help—Alsace being Alsace, we only brought him out as the big guns when all else failed, however it was to no useful effect (as we eventually ate elsewhere). Moments later when they thought we were out of listening range we could hear their conversions in German. Very strange, presumably if we'd initially tried to order in French then everything would have been OK.

Another striking instance was when I was in Menton in the south of France (Menton† is a border town between France and Italy with the Italian town Ventimiglia† immediately on the other side of the border). I was with my French aunt who normally resides in Paris and who not only spoke perfect French but who also always enunciated her words clearly. She had absolutely no problem with language when visiting the local markets in Menton, nor with conducting any another business in the town however she was totally flummoxed when in Ventimiglia's markets—essentially gestures were her only effective means of communication. Incidentally, Menton and Ventimiglia are so close to each other that one can easily walk between the two as is common practice; moreover, crossing the border which, essentially, is the only thing that separates the two towns, was so simple that to do was a non-event:

† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventimiglia,_Italy

Sometimes, unexpectedly, the opposite happens. In the early days of when I was living in Vienna a Greenpeace volunteer knocked at my apartment and asked for a donation. He rattled off his request so quickly that I requested him to repeat a part of it. Without so much as even a pregnant pause he instantly switched mid sentence into English and did so with absolute fluency (how I envy people like that).

"...almost anywhere, and as well pickpockets are common in many large cities all over <...>some relatives of mine have been pickpocketed BOTH in London and in Barcelona"

I'm not disagreeing, the reason I picked out those two instances was that the pickpockets in question were so overt about their aim that even the most novice traveler couldn't mistake their intentions (they worked on the principle that it didn't matter if you knew their intentions or not as, given their numbers, they'd have no trouble getting away). As mentioned, I found other places to be OK, in fact very safe, for instance, I traveled to work every day on Vienna's crowded U-Bahn and I never gave a second's thought about being pick-pocketed (and I never was).

"I have been refused accomodation (duly booked in advance, BTW) in Munich in the Oktoberfest period (due to some sort of overbooking, or mismanagement of cancellations, not really an issue as I was traveling by car and I managed to find a hotel only a few km outside Munich)"

Stuff-ups happen, and I'm not surprised it happened during Oktoberfest (you must have masochist tendencies to have been in Munich at that time). ;-)

"...in three different occasions someone managed to throw up on me (yikes!), once on a bus in Berlin, once in a train in the UK and once on a Qantas flight to Australia."

The most polite thing I can say to that is that with incidents one and two, luck wasn't on your side. Incident three, you have only yourself to blame for traveling on that airline.

My only experience that's vaguely similar happened to me in Manhattan when I was on my way to an important meeting. Whilst waiting at a pedestrian crossing for the lights to change at the intersection of one of the avenues and a cross street (forgotten which ones) a pigeon flying overhead shat on my head and shoulders.

An inconvenient bomb out of the blue to say the least.

P.S.: I really don't like traveling much, I avoid it if I can.

___

‡ At a certain hotel in London's Russell Square that will rename nameless, I made definite arrangements the night before I was to book out to collect an important fax that I was expecting to arrive overnight (I had a very early flight to NY and time was tight). Morning duly arrived and the area around the checkout counter was beginning to fill. When it was my turn to check out I asked checkout clerk serving me (one of three on duty if I recall) for my fax which I knew had arrived as I could see that it was still on the fax machine behind the checkout counter (its printout was of the roll type and my fax was still attached to the roll).

The clerk immediately responded that "the fax operator won't be in until 10AM and I'd have to wait until then", I politely responded that the fax was already on the machine behind him and that I'd already made arrangements the previous evening to collect it first thing the morning but it was to no avail, he simply repeated the exact same mantra again. A heated argument ensued much to the amusement and chagrin of others waiting (I was holding up the checkout line) but the clerk still wouldn't budge. I then immediately jumped over the counter tore the fax off the machine and jumped back again. Clerk: "I'm calling the police", "OK, best of luck—and I'll then accuse you of stealing my goods and I'll charge the hotel for me missing my flight." Cheers and applause from the 'audience' ensued. Yeah, there are some right bastards in this world.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ciupicri on Monday April 11, 2022 @06:02PM (#30995663)
I find it odd that the train ticket didn't get you to your final destination. If the train doesn't travel on some part of the route, the railway company usually gets you on a bus for that part and you don't have to do anything. Just get off the train and hop in the bus.

N.B. Hungary has been an EU member since 2004, but Serbia is still not.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by dwighttk on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:28PM (#30994464)
Every improvement you are asking for (except for lower prices) is going to cost more money.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Johnny555 on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#30994646)
Does it really cost money to have the Belgrade train destination sign say "must buy bus ticket and transfer in Novi Sad"?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by dwighttk on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:38PM (#30995435)
Oh yeah a sign would work… (I was thinking continuing the train to the stated destination.)
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ceejayoz on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:20PM (#30994337)
The article hints at why this is:

> The fact remains that, despite the European Union’s support for rail, the bloc’s governments continue to grant enormous subsidies to airlines — in the form of bailout packages as well as low taxes on jet fuel — although that could change soon.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Hermel on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:29PM (#30994489)
By definition, low taxes are not a subsidy. It is the trains that are heavily subsidized. The main reason behind the price difference is that there is plenty of competition between airlines for a given flight, eg Paris-Berlin, but no competition for the same train connection.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by jhgb on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:32PM (#30994545)
> By definition, low taxes are not a subsidy.

The conspicuous lack of Pigouvian taxes on a fossil fuel for just one industry is definitely a subsidy. Someone else is paying for the externalities.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:05PM (#30997325)
No, nobody is actually paying for CO2 emission externalities. At best, you can argue that maybe someone will be paying them some day in future, but it’s a big fat maybe. Because nobody is actually paying for these externalities, we don’t have any figures of how much those externalities cost — you can come up with some estimates, but as GOSPLAN experience shows, calculating prices outside of markets is a fool’s errand. Moreover, our best estimates of these costs is rather low, especially if you do time discounting. Planes would still be cheaper than trains even if they had to pay these. Finally, since most of electricity in Europe still comes from fossil fuels, emission externalities are just as much of a problem for them as they are for trains, especially if you consider that the GHG emissions per actual passenger kilometer between trains and planes are rather similar: trains tend to be really heavy, and usually run much more empty than planes.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by sudosysgen on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:12PM (#30997366)
People are already paying for those externalities in extreme weather events caused by CO2, also from carbon taxes in other countries that wouldn't have been necessary otherwise, from people who have to buy more expensive cars and fuel, etc...
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:25PM (#30997467)
> People are already paying for those externalities in extreme weather events caused by CO2,

And others are benefitting from positive externalities of warmer weather, reducing need for heating, increases yields due to increased CO2 concentration etc. Thing is, it’s incredibly hard to put a number on net costs on climate change. The most serious recent attempt to do that had its author, William Nordhaus, a Nobel Prize in Economics. The estimated figure, by the way, is very low compared to the zeal of the activists.

Now, of course, the carbon tax proponents are not really interested in the actual costs. They either ideologically hate emissions, and their desire to institute carbon tax is vindictive in its nature, and all talk about “externalities” is for them just a distraction, or they are politicians who use carbon tax as an excuse to increase their political power and tax revenues. Nobody is motivated by actual economic efficiency, and calling them Pigouvian taxes is a distraction.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by stephen_g on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:56AM (#30998778)
Nordhaus's work is absolutely panned as being basically literally insane by actual scientists. He based a large parts of his analysis on ideas like "well x% (something like 75%+) of GDP happens indoors so that won't be affected by any way by climate change".
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:23AM (#30998918)
Why didn't those actual scientists bring this up when he, you know, got a Nobel Prize for that? Or are you arguing here that Nobel Prize is a joke, and people who give it are total idiots?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hgomersall on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:20AM (#30999263)
The "Nobel Prize" in economics is very much a joke.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by stephen_g on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:21AM (#30999639)
The 'Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel' isn't really much like the actual Nobel Prizes (except maybe the Nobel Peace Prize, that one has proven to be a bit of a joke too, but at least it's a real Nobel Prize).
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:43AM (#31004196)
Yes it is. It gets promoted the same way by the foundation and it has the same recognition in the field.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by sudosysgen on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:32PM (#30997921)
Where I'm at, in the North, recent weather has only increased climate control costs due to colder winters and hotter summers. I can't say for sure it's global warming at work.

William's Nordhaus models for which he has received the Nobel prize predate the millennium, and have been superceded since then by much better models. His models are highly problematic, now that we know that you cannot extrapolate the average temperature on GDP due to increased amplitude, and for many other reasons. That is why the Nobel committee awarded it not for the current relevance of the results, but for the pioneering nature of the research.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by adrianN on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @12:30AM (#30998639)
We have pretty high estimates of what CO2 costs. Depending on how you discount future damage CO2 should cost at least 300€/ton.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by xyzzyz on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:24AM (#30998924)
We have some pretty high estimates. We also have some low estimates too. Average of the estimates we have is not "at least 300 eur/ton".
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by adrianN on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:12AM (#31001015)
195€-680€/ton is what the German government believes[0]. Who is advocating for significantly lower estimates?

[0] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/14...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:41AM (#31004177)
Passingly looking over that document it seems depending on what the CO2 is used for, it totally different.

Once you fix energy production, vehicles transport and heating most of those things are gone.

If we looked air air-travel in isolation it would be a lot lower.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by imtringued on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:35AM (#31001761)
That's a long winded way of saying the future doesn't matter to you.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Ma8ee on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:43PM (#30994720)
The argument that lower taxes isn't a subsidy is just stupid. It makes absolutely no meaningful difference if someone pays the same taxes as everyone else but then the government pay them some money, or if someone pays correspondingly lower taxes. In the end the recipient ends up with exactly the same amount of more money, and the government ends up with exactly the same amount of less money.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by zdragnar on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:41PM (#30997966)
> and the government ends up with exactly the same amount of less money.

Minus overhead

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Ma8ee on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @03:47AM (#30999761)
What overhead? Do you really think it makes any significant difference versus recalculating the taxes?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by pc86 on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:38PM (#30994652)
They are if other industries consuming the same product pay different tax rates. In this example, an airline purchasing 1L of kerosene pays a different rate than a train purchasing the same 1L of the same kerosene. That's the textbook definition of a subsidy.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by robocat on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:00PM (#30997724)
Can you find any information showing that most European trains pay tax on diesel? Plenty are electric, so any tax would be indirect.

This report seems to show that trains mostly pay for infrastructure and the network: https://cedelft.eu/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/CE_Del...

I think British trains pay for “red” taxed diesel?

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Symbiote on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @07:38AM (#31001220)
Good find!

The "Diesel tax levels" charts (p28, p81) show the UK charges the same (0.7€/L) for both road and rail use, and most EU countries charge a tax, although more than half have less tax for rail than road use.

Electricity is taxed in a few countries.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by namdnay on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:36PM (#30994621)
Flag-carrier Airlines are heavily subsidized by the implicit guarantee that the state will do everything it can to bail them out
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by vmception on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:21PM (#30994345)
Flying in Spain and many parts of Europe is insanely and artificially cheap. I've seen bus passes more expensive, and the bus passes were the price I expected.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by kergonath on Monday April 11, 2022 @05:17PM (#30995207)
Yes. This is not sustainable.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by systemvoltage on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:03PM (#30996278)
Why?
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by __d on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:36PM (#30996623)
The economics are quite involved, and can be easily skewed depending on what externalized costs you choose to include in your analysis.

Superficially, flying has relatively lower infrastructure costs because it only needs the two endpoints (no road, no track, no bridges, no tunnels -- all expensive items). That impacts both the initial capital cost, and the ongoing investment in maintenance.

Similarly, planes are fast: above a fairly short distance, it's much quicker to fly (by jet plane) than to travel by train or road vehicle.

But airports are difficult to access, being unwelcome in the middle of cities, and so there's a need to get to the airport as part of your journey. That part of the trip likely requires road or rail transport, and it's the most capital-intensive bits of the road/rail (ie. through urban areas).

The fuel cost of planes is also higher per passenger-distance. And beyond just simply purchasing the fuel, it's much easier (for instance) to electrify a train or car than a passenger plane. So how you account for the carbon cost will make a big difference to your result.

For the last 20 years or so, short-trip flights have been superficially cheap. The most obvious missing cost is the impact of using fossil fuel (and potentially that's even worse at high altitude), but there are other factors like the (ab)use of precarious labour, government subsidies for both fuel and facilities, noise impact, etc.

Whether it's ultimately sustainable or not all depends on what costs you choose to factor in.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by systemvoltage on Monday April 11, 2022 @08:07PM (#30996899)
I was expecting you to take a stance - either trains or planes, but your response was even better and painted a comprehensive high level picture. Thanks for taking the time. I agree with all these points, perhaps though I would challenge us about carbon-emissions with the following: If we want to progress as a civilization, is the idea to regress in and save energy expenditure in the short term; and/or in the long term become a space-exploring civilization with no limits on consumption? We kind of have an unlimited source of energy (the Sun) and if we could, we can do a lot more. Once Fusion is solved, we will have the ability to sequestrate carbon to offset everything we do on earth. I hope to see a day where talks about being miserable to save energy is completely out of the equation. Electricity and all forms of energy would be too cheap to meter for an average human.

It would be amazing to see humans build a large scale fusion reactors and Dyson spheres around the sun and never have to think about energy consumption :).

At the same time, I think we all should be disappointed in our approach towards energy production. We shouldn't have to ration it. Successful governments should be responsible for running sequestrators on tax funding.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by shafyy on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:55AM (#30999093)
> Once Fusion is solved, we will have the ability to sequestrate carbon to offset everything we do on earth

There are lot of IFs in your statement. Sure, it's theoretically possible to harvest so much energy that we can regard it as freely abundant without any real external costs. But this is not the case today, and probably won't be the case for hundreds of years - if ever.

* > Successful governments should be responsible for running sequestrators on tax funding. *

There's no such thing as large scale carbon sequestrations. It's unclear if this is a sensible solution to climate change in general. It makes much more sense to switch to renewables as quickly as possible and to limit emissions as much as possible. THAT's what a successful government should be responsible for, not for investing in false promises.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by kergonath on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:16AM (#30999236)
> It would be amazing to see humans build a large scale fusion reactors and Dyson spheres around the sun and never have to think about energy consumption :).

A Dyson sphère around the sun would make life on Earth rather miserable.

> Successful governments should be responsible for running sequestrators on tax funding.

“Sequestrators” don’t exist. There is some noise every now and then about a fancy new technology, and it gets accepted in pop science media as something that works, but we don’t really have anything practical. Besides, this would be a terrible idea, because it means we lower the cost of operations for the industry, generating profits for their private owners, whilst straining public budgets already stretched thin. This would need a radical change of how most governments operate.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by inkblotuniverse on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:50AM (#31000536)
Just leave a gap in the swarm for the light the earth needs (or have mirrors in the greater swarm rotate to do the same, if cheaper).

You can make hydrocarbons from c02 and water. Make digging up carbon illegal, so that only legal way to get your jet fuel is to buy it from a machine that makes it from the air (e.g. carbon-neutral fuels).

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by kergonath on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:24PM (#31005651)
> You can make hydrocarbons from c02 and water.

Under high temperature and pressure conditions, with expensive catalysts (I’ve had a grant to work on one of these processes a couple of years ago). It is completely uneconomical unless most government tax emissions very heavily one way or another.

Besides, this does not solve the capture bit, which is also a significant challenge, in similar ways (we have ideas about technologies, thermodynamics do not work in our favour, it would still require radical policies for it to work).

Nobody is going to wave their magic wand and make fossil fuels illegal anytime soon. It is a common techno-euphoria trap: technology is the easy bit, and we’re not there yet on that front. Policy is the struggle after that, and it is much more difficult.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:46AM (#31004239)
Lets just be honest without a fairly high estimate for externality cost of fuel planes simply win.

And with electric planes you can go closer to cities, elimintation much infrastructure there and the externailty goes away for the most part.

So this seems just like an argument that we should make planes electric and invest a lot into that.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by kergonath on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:09AM (#30999198)
Thanks, almost exactly what I would have written!
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by closeparen on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:29PM (#30997906)
One fun and counterintuitive effect: because it takes a train a lot longer to provide as many passenger-miles as an airliner, the per-passenger-mile cost as a share of the capital equipment value is much higher. Ditto the per-passenger-mile cost of crew wages.

The fact that the equipment and the crews are absolutely cheaper doesn’t help ticket prices as much as you’d think. Time is money.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by gunfighthacksaw on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:31PM (#30994532)
The train feels more civilized.

You can afford to have a bit more space to sit, wider aisles to walk and can fit a much nicer kitchen.

Bigger tables too so you can spread out your work/shopping/food.

If you haven’t tried train food before I highly recommend it. It’s stereotypically good in the same way plane food is stereotypically bad.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by drpancake on Monday April 11, 2022 @07:13PM (#30996411)
I suspect that you haven't been exposed to the wonders of British train food. Imagine our usual delightful cuisine but significantly worse.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ews on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:20PM (#30994336)
RENFE (national railroad company) had no competitors until very recently, they opened the market just months ago. I am hopeful the new high speed companies (i.e Ouigo) makes the market much more competitive and lowers pricing in all tiers. Still, for same price and roughly same time, I always prefer using the train to the planes.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by vladvasiliu on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:59PM (#30998085)
This is happening in France, too. I'm not too optimistic on how this will turn out.

What we've seen here is TrenItalia starting to serve one line, Paris-Lyon (and then on to Milan). The issue is that this is, by far, the most profitable train line in France.

If competitors only get in on the profitable lines and leave the others to the national company, it will probably not end well. Because it's my understanding that profitable lines used to somewhat compensate for the others, SNCF was able to provide a somewhat dense service. If this goes away, they'll either have to reduce (or even stop!) the less profitable service, or the State will have to step in with even more subsidies for those lines.

There's a lot of talk in France around "public service" and I think that things like good rail service, especially in the era of "climate emergency" is important for a State to have. Instead, we're now getting new bus routes - yay diesel!

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by vladvasiliu on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:46AM (#30999436)
This is actually something that comes from the European Commission, so expect to see this happen in other countries, too.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/general/liberalisation_en.h...

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Ericson2314 on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:25PM (#30997466)
Trains are a very, very natural monopoly. Competition doesn't make sense, especially if your service frequency is any good.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by shafyy on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @01:56AM (#30999101)
Fucking love trains. I live in Berlin and visit Zurich often (that's where I'm from). I can just get into the train in the monrning, work, eat, drink and by the end of the workday I'm in Zurich. Extremely convenient, and not really more expensive than a flight if you book a couple of weeks in advanc, even for first class.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:55AM (#31004351)
I did the exact same thing. I would work in Berlin and I would go back to Switzerland every second weekend. I much preferred the train.

Partly because airports in Berlin are shit.

If you go at the right times you get a lot of space, you can put your feet up and have a nice table as well.

It is more expensive then flying however.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by Glawen on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:26PM (#30994442)
A plane doesn't have to build and maintain km of tracks, it just uses airport facilities (subsidised usually) and untaxed kerosene. A high speed train can only go to a few destination, the tracks can hardly be repaid
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by twobitshifter on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:42PM (#30997983)
For the plane, the start and end of the trip requires a second form of transport to get to the airport itself. So the existence of a plane does rely on some infrastructure. Some futurists are calling for aerotropolis to be built as new city models with the airport as the center of commerce, but most old world cities won’t have this.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by panick21_ on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:52AM (#31004320)
I think the future we are looking for kind of looks like this:

You leave your house and you either jump on an electric bike or a self driving car of some kind. A 1-person 3-wheeled pod car would be very efficient if you are alone.

You get to a local mini-airport where electric helicopters transport you to the airport. Or maybe you just take the car to the local airport. Depends on where you live.

You jump into a electric plan and fly the city center you want to go to, or you land and jump in a second electric plane (this will happen less often as technology improves).

And then you do that same thing backwards to get the your destination.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by KptMarchewa on Monday April 11, 2022 @04:30PM (#30994512)
A lot of time those tracks are already paid for by freight trains.

The track tax is just what governments choose to do - especially since cargo trucks barely pay any road access tax.

Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by hgomersall on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:42AM (#30999412)
You can't run an effective passenger service on tracks dominated by freight.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by devoutsalsa on Monday April 11, 2022 @09:38PM (#30997551)
Flying itself is often cheap, but the connections to & from the airport can make it less cheap. My bus to central Brussels from Charleroi cost more than the round trip flight from Copenhagen.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by retube on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @02:22AM (#30999271)
I suspect one reason is that with trains there's a huge amount of infrastructure to maintain - the tracks between destinations, but with planes you don't have that.
Re:Europe is investing heavily in trains by ricardobayes on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @05:49AM (#31000528)
I wish we had better connectivity between Spanish cities. Between Murcia and Alicante/Valencia there is no good option currently, just driving.