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Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by mvkel on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:27PM (#30969988)
"Middle managers" are certainly needed as part of a corporate hierarchy. What is being exposed with WFH is -ineffective- managers.

Ineffective managers are at every level, including the C-suite. Middle managers just have a higher probability of being ineffective due to lack of experience/resources, so they get the headline.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by Accujack on Saturday April 09, 2022 @11:45PM (#30974325)
>Middle managers just have a higher probability of being ineffective due to lack of experience/resources,

Actually, I think it's because they're more difficult to discover; Determining whether a middle manager's performance is good or not is a far less trivial task than determining whether a technical employee is producing value.

Middle managers are adequate by default. Individual contributors are not. If a middle manager does not obviously cause damage or liability, they are generally assumed to be "working". If they do not appear to be exceptional or effective, it's assumed that their role has not presented any chances to excel. They are protected partially by the empathy that other managers have for their position. Managers are rarely fired simply for not producing results, which is very much not the case for individual contributors.

The difficulty of weeding out ineffective middle managers means they will be present as a higher percentage of total manager head count than e.g. ineffective line managers.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by perfopt on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:09PM (#30973874)
I agree. Also, most companies need a lot fewer middle managers than they have. I picked a "management" path because promotions are easier. But I still do technical work - I write code, review code, create and review tech documents.

Successive teams I have managed liked it that their manager is "one of them". We dont have boring team meetings. All are technical except select 1-1s which are career conversations

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#30970285)
Not really the entire hierarchical structures of corporations is actually highly inefficient it's something a lot of universities have been talking about for a while now. Which is ironic when you realize most universities are designed similar to churches with indentured servitude.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by rootusrootus on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:09PM (#30970436)
I've never been too impressed with what academics think the corporate world is like. Some of them, maybe, are pretty knowledgable, but a lot of them have been inside the academic bubble too long.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:19PM (#30970542)
Honestly, they're right more than they are wrong under the correct circumstances that is. Too bad being locked in a room for your entire life leads to a lot of other issues instead of experiencing the world and grabbing a better understanding of how everything ties in together. But who would change that after all if we believe what the modern psychologist says altruism doesn't exist.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by taeric on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:46PM (#30972380)
Are they, though? Specifically in predictability of models. Really good at explaining, but not good at hedging on how likely what happened was to have happened.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @11:03AM (#30977552)
It depends. Science doesn't occur in a vacuum. Change occurs overtime with the experiences of others. No one can do anything independent from the world. In several instances in the world the most meaningful leaps and changes in scientific theory have been when individuals have gone and seen real experiences. Such as nightingale and her contribution to sanitation.

In my opinion, any model that predicts any sort of outcome when doing so accurately is overfitted and lacks the proper contextual knowledge necessary. Should the work of actuarial science be validated as just a series of lists to prove the risk and likely hood of death? Should we all have numbers above our heads dependent on the fate and caste we are born into? These are all things these models ignore and misrepresent. If I was born into a lower middle class black family if no one knew who I was would they care about me? My struggles, my pain? So far all that I've seen are people who would rather choose to mock me. Wearing my clothing, pretending to sing my songs, my struggles. Yet nothing changes, no one cares about me, it's not my problem they say. What my ancestors did is not my fault nor my problem. While some in the scientific community care about these issues, the majority just ignores it. Even today all they care about is what book they need to read in order to follow their identity politics over real system change. Having been forced to live a lie, I can't see how or why others would care without having people who have seen and experienced it themselves. When you exclude more than half the world it really does make you wonder if we are right more than we are wrong.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by edmundsauto on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:02AM (#30989767)
> In my opinion, any model that predicts any sort of outcome when doing so accurately is overfitted and lacks the proper contextual knowledge necessary

For me, models that do not make predictions are not very useful. Without predictions about the future, it's very hard to tell if the work is useful moving forward, or if it should be read as a historical analysis that doesn't matter in the current environment.

Predictions are critical, they are a primary mechanism to find out if something is useful.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by stult on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:18PM (#30970531)
This touches on the controversy that sparked Coase's Theory of the Firm. He proposed the idea that firms exist to reduce transaction costs as an explanation for why capitalist firms look like mini-soviets internally, with highly centralized control and planning. Which seems like a contradiction to classical economists. If free markets are so effective, why can't you run a company like a free market? eg have workers bid for tasks from managers. Turns out that is wildly inefficient because of the transaction costs involved in coordinating competitively instead of cooperatively (at least in successful companies). I suspect pandemic WFH has revealed there are much more efficient ways to coordinate cooperatively than simple centralized planning, and those methods generally do not require as much managerial facilitation because they rely much more heavily on asynchronous communication.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by lupire on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:39PM (#30972846)
The offices solution to Coase's paradox is that central planning doesn't scale well.

This is similar to federalism -- central governments don't work very well for everything, but scaler local governments are still effective for local issues.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by vkou on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:25PM (#30973403)
Except that the most successful companies work in the opposite manner from what you describe. Your line workers and manager may know how best to solve a problem, but they are almost never empowered to implement that solution, because upper management is not interested in delegating that power to them.

Pour one out to anyone who has ever done a sprint retrospective, or a company 360 review, where all the important problems get skipped over because 'there's nothing we can do about this, this, and that.'

Line workers and managers are given an incredibly narrow window in which they are permitted to operate. Anything beyond that needs beurocratic approval. Much like in the Soviet Union, sometimes that beurocracy is staffed by intelligent human beings, but usually it is staffed by donkeys. People who care enough about doing their work find ways to work around the latter, or just give up and punch in their 9-5.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by nemothekid on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:51PM (#30980405)
This contrast is interesting; taking it a bit further is that in free countries the concern with individual participation is that not everyone is sufficiently educated or motivated to actually provide meaningful insight or course correction.

Hypothetically, A firm like Tesla or SpaceX maybe be so successful in engineer feedback because they are high demand places to work and they have not exhausted the pool of individuals who can provide great work. However as the company needs to scale, or as the company becomes less glamourous you have people who either (1) just aren't as capable or (2) don't care to expend any creativity on solving the needs of the company (either because there's no reward or they are interested in other areas).

Furthermore, a company that is not centrally planned will most likely move slower than a centrally planned one. Just like how China is able to forcibly take your land to build railways; an action like that in a free society has many gatekeepers that would slow down such a process. Any public company, that is measured on a quartely basis would find themselves grappling with showing change to wall street.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by inglor_cz on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:10AM (#30974809)
IIRC one of the reasons why Tesla/SpaceX are so successful is that they give a lot of voice to the engineers that really work on the products.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by vkou on Sunday April 10, 2022 @03:14AM (#30975057)
Which would make them the exception that proves the rule. Most of the other Fortune 498 does not.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by Dracophoenix on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:13PM (#30971046)
Is that always true? What about in R&D departments or startups? Wouldn't the free market of a firm be guided by personal reputation?
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by WJW on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:48PM (#30971367)
It seems logical to me that free markets are also not necessarily very efficient at price discovery, there are after all a ton of costs involved in price discovery, information gathering about market counterparts to see if they are trustworthy, drafting and policing contracts, etc etc etc. However, even with these added costs markets are the only thing we've discovered that still works well beyond a certain scale.

For R&D departments and startups, plan economies can still work because the complexity is still small enough that humans can comprehend it.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by throwawayHN378 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:18PM (#30973374)
If this is true it hasn’t really been exposed for my team
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by mvkel on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:54PM (#30974081)
I'm not sure what you mean. If you have a > 100 person company, you either have managers, or you have too many reporting to too few.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by darkerside on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:01PM (#30970356)
So you're saying their theory differs from their practice? Hmm.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:15PM (#30970496)
Why share the cake when you can have it all to yourself. After all they did spent their entire life getting to that point shouldn't everyone else suffer as well? Maybe just a little worse every iteration until we just stop paying them. /s
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by throwaway93982 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:35PM (#30970689)
Yep, hierarchy comes from religion (hierarkhia, "rule of a high preist"). Traditional capitalist hierarchical organization is just one of many potential hierarchies, so definitely it could be improved. But hierarchy is ingrained in culture, and culture is probably the third hardest thing in the universe to change, after genetics and cancelling your gym membership.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by hallway_monitor on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:29PM (#30971201)
It seems to me that hierarchy is ingrained in nature, and human nature is an extension of that. There will always be a hierarchy in any system of living (and therefore competing) organisms.

It seems more productive to focus on making sure the difference between the top and bottom doesn't get too extreme, rather than lamenting the fact of nature and wishing there was no such thing as competition.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by trhway on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:09PM (#30972086)
The nature didn't for the most part had software nor networks, and thus couldn't fully explore and utilize the alternative approach of self organization from the bottom up with closed loop feedback to achieve desired emergent properties/product/etc. There are good chances that many known human hierarchies are going the way of dinosaurs.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by la6472 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:26AM (#30974471)
Exactly lot of middle management functions can be automated and even more objective evaluation can be done.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by FerociousTimes on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:15PM (#30973057)
Does this scale?
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by marcosdumay on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:18PM (#30971634)
If you are talking about hierarchy copying the Catholic Church, well the church also copied the Roman government, that appeared mostly naturally from the existence of an imperium.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by blindmute on Sunday April 10, 2022 @09:29AM (#30976789)
Yeah I'm sure the academics with a preconceived agenda against hierarchy of all forms have figured out how every successful business is doing it wrong
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by xwdv on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:59PM (#30971467)
By far the most inefficient part of the hierarchy is at the very bottom. Workers slacking off, not working optimally, and still getting paid for the full 40 hours. Wouldn’t need so much redundancy if you could truly get their full output.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by phoe-krk on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:07PM (#30971536)
> if you could truly get their full output.

Getting the relative most out of the bottom line workers and finding and taking care of the underperformers is the direct responsibility of their managers, and I'm saying this unironically. Managing is about being a performance multiplier, and the most hands-on part of management always involves concrete teams of people doing concrete dirty work.

It's the manager managers that are the problem mentioned here.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by cpeterso on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:45PM (#30972372)
And the productivity of line workers doesn't matter if management is prioritizing the wrong projects. Bad managers have a bigger negative impact than bad line workers.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by alan-hn on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:05PM (#30971522)
Are you aware of any data or studies that back up this claim? I would love to read about it
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by willcipriano on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:43PM (#30972360)
> Wouldn’t need so much redundancy if you could truly get their full output.

The incentive structure is that those workers capture much less than the value of their total output. If they worked harder so the firm required less employees, how do they benefit?

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by akomtu on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:52PM (#30971934)
It's always the horses who fail the king. If only those lazy animals did more than the bare minimum, the king wouldn't need to be such a despot.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by tonyedgecombe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:02PM (#30971499)
That's a management problem as well.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by stjohnswarts on Friday April 22, 2022 @10:07PM (#31130712)
Exactly. You will always need people to wrangle the cats on a medium business scale (20-50 workers), including programmers.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by jurschreuder on Sunday April 10, 2022 @03:45AM (#30975175)
I can't think of a more useless profession than manager. Managers should not be paid because they don't do actual work and they don't know about the technology. They just squeeze all the joy out of work by commanding developers to do things they know will not work, and take away all intrinsic motivation. The accumulation of managers is a sign of a sick company. When engineers build things, out of an intrinsic interest in building stuff, they gain status as the company becomes more successful. This attracts people only interested in status that drag the company down. A top priority of tech companies as they scale should be to keep engineering in charge.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by jjav on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:31PM (#30980151)
> I can't think of a more useless profession than manager.

I used to think that, but it just means you haven't worked with a good manager. Which isn't surprising since they are rare. But they exist.

A good manager will keep all roadblocks and distractions out of your way so you can be in the zone most of the time and they will play the corporate politics on your behalf so you get interesting projects and promotions.

A most dramatic demonstration of this happened at one company where I had my best manager ever succeeded by my worst manager ever. The worst wasn't a bad person or anything, just incompetent as a manager.

Under the great manager I was convinced this was the best-run company ever. Never any emergencies, never unreasonable requests, could focus all my time on interesting projects in different parts of the company. It was so great.

Then the great manager left for greener pastures and the incompetent one was hired. None of the upper management changed so the company was running the same as before. Suddenly I was inundated with nonsense escalations every day, constantly being pushed to stop working on the interesting projects, unreasonable time demands, etc. None of this was orignating from the incompetent manager directly, it came from the SVPs above.

So turns out the awesome manager was just absorbing all this noise and keeping those in his team shielded away from it so we could happily focus on tech work. The incompetent manager just forwarded everything that came to him.

Less than 6 months after the manager switch, I also left the company.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by danielrpa on Sunday April 10, 2022 @06:59AM (#30976019)
Sounds like you're describing ineffective or incompetent managers. A good engineering manager will teach/grow their reports, helping them focus on the things that they love while harnessing their energy towards building good systems and products. Few groups of engineers are able to work together effectively towards a goal without some sort of leader or manager in place.

Middle managers are a totally different beast altogether and are supposed to be coordinating resources for strategic rather than tactical goals. It's a lot easier to coast in this position, however, as many competent frontline managers often have the same skill set.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by jjeaff on Sunday April 10, 2022 @04:22AM (#30975309)
Surely you understand the need for managers at some level?
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by xyzzy21 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:38PM (#30978768)
I hope you don't believe that "things will just happen on their own". Because they don't and won't. It's the same with selling products that generate company revenue - in general products DO NOT SELL THEMSELVES. Ever. And "worse" - even the best designed product that "flies off the shelf" will usually only do that for the first 3-9 months - after that, the lack of awareness for product or problem, the mismatch of buyer/seller knowledge, product features to market need, etc. is large enough that nothing will be an obvious match. All these things are why there are sales people with commissions et al.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by nemothekid on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:42PM (#30980288)
>When engineers build things, out of an intrinsic interest in building stuff, they gain status as the company becomes more successful.

If engineers build things with no business value, then that company will fail. When every engineer is building their own passion project, then the company fail.

The position is a leadership role, one that should ideally ensure the team is united on one goal and is able to exert pressure outside the team in defense of that goal. However with any leadership role, the best people for that role aren't always the people who seek the role.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by apple4ever on Sunday April 10, 2022 @01:49PM (#30979639)
Sounds like you've only worked for bad managers. I'm not surprised, many companies protect them, and in fact promote them! I've worked for too many bad managers, so I feel your pain.

But also sounds like you've never worked for good managers. They may not do actual work (but many do!), but they definitely know about the technology. They ensure blockers are removed, questions are answered, obstacles are overcome, and that motivation remains high.

They may or may not be rarer that bad managers, but they do exist!

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by newsclues on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:07PM (#30970425)
There is also an excessive number of middle management, even if all of the were competent.

Technology has made it possible to be a more effective manager and leader.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by CSMastermind on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:38PM (#30970723)
> Technology has made it possible to be a more effective manager and leader.

How so?

I've built a few different organizations now and each time I've found that I need to introduce a middle management layer somewhere around 18 and 24 engineers.

The limit is always things that are really hard to automate or replace with technology like 1 on 1s, keeping a pulse on how the team is feeling, coaching people on career growth, etc.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by ineptech on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:18PM (#30971085)
And in my experience, if more than 5 people are working together to do the same thing, one of them is going to be the manager, whether you call them that or not. We do it intentionally and explicitly because that's more likely to lead to a good manager then just letting someone take charge.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by jghn on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:19PM (#30971638)
I don't think that contradicts what GP is saying, or perhaps I misunderstand them. 5 directs per manager. So 10 engineers = 2 managers. But at 25 engineers you have 5 managers, and now you've maxed out their manager.

Either way, my experience has been 5-10 directs as the sweet spot. 12-15 is fine but really pushing things. Beyond that, you need more structure.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by newsclues on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:08PM (#30971003)
Cars and planes made multi site management more effective.

Phones, cellphones, email, etc have all made management communication more effective. Address book in your iPhone is faster than your secretary, a Rolodex and the switchboard.

Automate the easy stuff, and have the management do the human leadership tasks.

I’d ask the engineers what else can be done differently but maybe you have implemented lean leadership already.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by kkfx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:34PM (#30971249)
Beware a thing: the classic production of the '900 manufacturing industry do just require organization because anything is done on the assembly line, but creative works (witch means anything not already designed and now in mass production stage) is another thing. You can't subdivide a problem in tasks effectively until you figure out how to solve it in the first place, you can't easy share ideas quickly without "work's social life" etc.

To be more precise, it's doable but demand years of experience, our society except for very few jobs lack such experience and as always anyone want young people with decade of experience behind...

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by AndrewDucker on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:41PM (#30970755)
You no longer have to spend 5 minutes walking between meeting rooms and can now go straight from one meeting to another with no time to collect your thoughts at all!
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by bin_bash on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:09PM (#30971013)
I understood that as 18-24 engineers in a company, not per manager.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by UncleMeat on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:11PM (#30972097)
My primary responsibilities as a manager are coaching, mentoring, hiring, firing, and solving impedance mismatches with other teams. None of that is aided by technology.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by BlargMcLarg on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:23PM (#30973106)
You telling us the advent of video and animated media, along with the increasing ease of making them and sharing them, has not helped? When many thus far have applauded the existence and presentation of information in such media?

That's just one example.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by bawolff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:13PM (#30973889)
I have trouble parsing your sentence, but i am pretty sure the answer is no, that does not help.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by UncleMeat on Sunday April 10, 2022 @09:36AM (#30976823)
Does your manager communicate to you with youtube videos? No. I have not found that video and animation content creation tools have made my job as a manager more efficient.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by la6472 on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:51AM (#30989596)
Maybe you need coaching not your direct reports. Training can be completely automated via technology with close feedback loops , AI and other techniques. Hiring can also be automated to a large extent specially for technical loops. Objective evaluation of someone’s performance can be done by tracking and task allocation systems. All these can be automated to a large extent.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by la6472 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:13AM (#30974425)
Actually lot of middle management jobs can be automated specially tasks allocation and tracking. It is not that difficult to imagine a system like that where these functions can be automated and this middle managers can be free to do more “valuable” tasks.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by ozfive on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:15AM (#30974431)
Ineffective managers also seem to threaten.