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Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#30970285)
Not really the entire hierarchical structures of corporations is actually highly inefficient it's something a lot of universities have been talking about for a while now. Which is ironic when you realize most universities are designed similar to churches with indentured servitude.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by rootusrootus on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:09PM (#30970436)
I've never been too impressed with what academics think the corporate world is like. Some of them, maybe, are pretty knowledgable, but a lot of them have been inside the academic bubble too long.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:19PM (#30970542)
Honestly, they're right more than they are wrong under the correct circumstances that is. Too bad being locked in a room for your entire life leads to a lot of other issues instead of experiencing the world and grabbing a better understanding of how everything ties in together. But who would change that after all if we believe what the modern psychologist says altruism doesn't exist.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by taeric on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:46PM (#30972380)
Are they, though? Specifically in predictability of models. Really good at explaining, but not good at hedging on how likely what happened was to have happened.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @11:03AM (#30977552)
It depends. Science doesn't occur in a vacuum. Change occurs overtime with the experiences of others. No one can do anything independent from the world. In several instances in the world the most meaningful leaps and changes in scientific theory have been when individuals have gone and seen real experiences. Such as nightingale and her contribution to sanitation.

In my opinion, any model that predicts any sort of outcome when doing so accurately is overfitted and lacks the proper contextual knowledge necessary. Should the work of actuarial science be validated as just a series of lists to prove the risk and likely hood of death? Should we all have numbers above our heads dependent on the fate and caste we are born into? These are all things these models ignore and misrepresent. If I was born into a lower middle class black family if no one knew who I was would they care about me? My struggles, my pain? So far all that I've seen are people who would rather choose to mock me. Wearing my clothing, pretending to sing my songs, my struggles. Yet nothing changes, no one cares about me, it's not my problem they say. What my ancestors did is not my fault nor my problem. While some in the scientific community care about these issues, the majority just ignores it. Even today all they care about is what book they need to read in order to follow their identity politics over real system change. Having been forced to live a lie, I can't see how or why others would care without having people who have seen and experienced it themselves. When you exclude more than half the world it really does make you wonder if we are right more than we are wrong.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by edmundsauto on Monday April 11, 2022 @11:02AM (#30989767)
> In my opinion, any model that predicts any sort of outcome when doing so accurately is overfitted and lacks the proper contextual knowledge necessary

For me, models that do not make predictions are not very useful. Without predictions about the future, it's very hard to tell if the work is useful moving forward, or if it should be read as a historical analysis that doesn't matter in the current environment.

Predictions are critical, they are a primary mechanism to find out if something is useful.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by stult on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:18PM (#30970531)
This touches on the controversy that sparked Coase's Theory of the Firm. He proposed the idea that firms exist to reduce transaction costs as an explanation for why capitalist firms look like mini-soviets internally, with highly centralized control and planning. Which seems like a contradiction to classical economists. If free markets are so effective, why can't you run a company like a free market? eg have workers bid for tasks from managers. Turns out that is wildly inefficient because of the transaction costs involved in coordinating competitively instead of cooperatively (at least in successful companies). I suspect pandemic WFH has revealed there are much more efficient ways to coordinate cooperatively than simple centralized planning, and those methods generally do not require as much managerial facilitation because they rely much more heavily on asynchronous communication.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by lupire on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:39PM (#30972846)
The offices solution to Coase's paradox is that central planning doesn't scale well.

This is similar to federalism -- central governments don't work very well for everything, but scaler local governments are still effective for local issues.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by vkou on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:25PM (#30973403)
Except that the most successful companies work in the opposite manner from what you describe. Your line workers and manager may know how best to solve a problem, but they are almost never empowered to implement that solution, because upper management is not interested in delegating that power to them.

Pour one out to anyone who has ever done a sprint retrospective, or a company 360 review, where all the important problems get skipped over because 'there's nothing we can do about this, this, and that.'

Line workers and managers are given an incredibly narrow window in which they are permitted to operate. Anything beyond that needs beurocratic approval. Much like in the Soviet Union, sometimes that beurocracy is staffed by intelligent human beings, but usually it is staffed by donkeys. People who care enough about doing their work find ways to work around the latter, or just give up and punch in their 9-5.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by nemothekid on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:51PM (#30980405)
This contrast is interesting; taking it a bit further is that in free countries the concern with individual participation is that not everyone is sufficiently educated or motivated to actually provide meaningful insight or course correction.

Hypothetically, A firm like Tesla or SpaceX maybe be so successful in engineer feedback because they are high demand places to work and they have not exhausted the pool of individuals who can provide great work. However as the company needs to scale, or as the company becomes less glamourous you have people who either (1) just aren't as capable or (2) don't care to expend any creativity on solving the needs of the company (either because there's no reward or they are interested in other areas).

Furthermore, a company that is not centrally planned will most likely move slower than a centrally planned one. Just like how China is able to forcibly take your land to build railways; an action like that in a free society has many gatekeepers that would slow down such a process. Any public company, that is measured on a quartely basis would find themselves grappling with showing change to wall street.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by inglor_cz on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:10AM (#30974809)
IIRC one of the reasons why Tesla/SpaceX are so successful is that they give a lot of voice to the engineers that really work on the products.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by vkou on Sunday April 10, 2022 @03:14AM (#30975057)
Which would make them the exception that proves the rule. Most of the other Fortune 498 does not.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by Dracophoenix on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:13PM (#30971046)
Is that always true? What about in R&D departments or startups? Wouldn't the free market of a firm be guided by personal reputation?
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by WJW on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:48PM (#30971367)
It seems logical to me that free markets are also not necessarily very efficient at price discovery, there are after all a ton of costs involved in price discovery, information gathering about market counterparts to see if they are trustworthy, drafting and policing contracts, etc etc etc. However, even with these added costs markets are the only thing we've discovered that still works well beyond a certain scale.

For R&D departments and startups, plan economies can still work because the complexity is still small enough that humans can comprehend it.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by throwawayHN378 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:18PM (#30973374)
If this is true it hasn’t really been exposed for my team
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by mvkel on Saturday April 09, 2022 @10:54PM (#30974081)
I'm not sure what you mean. If you have a > 100 person company, you either have managers, or you have too many reporting to too few.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by darkerside on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:01PM (#30970356)
So you're saying their theory differs from their practice? Hmm.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by yike321123 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:15PM (#30970496)
Why share the cake when you can have it all to yourself. After all they did spent their entire life getting to that point shouldn't everyone else suffer as well? Maybe just a little worse every iteration until we just stop paying them. /s
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by throwaway93982 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:35PM (#30970689)
Yep, hierarchy comes from religion (hierarkhia, "rule of a high preist"). Traditional capitalist hierarchical organization is just one of many potential hierarchies, so definitely it could be improved. But hierarchy is ingrained in culture, and culture is probably the third hardest thing in the universe to change, after genetics and cancelling your gym membership.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by hallway_monitor on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:29PM (#30971201)
It seems to me that hierarchy is ingrained in nature, and human nature is an extension of that. There will always be a hierarchy in any system of living (and therefore competing) organisms.

It seems more productive to focus on making sure the difference between the top and bottom doesn't get too extreme, rather than lamenting the fact of nature and wishing there was no such thing as competition.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by trhway on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:09PM (#30972086)
The nature didn't for the most part had software nor networks, and thus couldn't fully explore and utilize the alternative approach of self organization from the bottom up with closed loop feedback to achieve desired emergent properties/product/etc. There are good chances that many known human hierarchies are going the way of dinosaurs.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by la6472 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:26AM (#30974471)
Exactly lot of middle management functions can be automated and even more objective evaluation can be done.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by FerociousTimes on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:15PM (#30973057)
Does this scale?
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by marcosdumay on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:18PM (#30971634)
If you are talking about hierarchy copying the Catholic Church, well the church also copied the Roman government, that appeared mostly naturally from the existence of an imperium.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by blindmute on Sunday April 10, 2022 @09:29AM (#30976789)
Yeah I'm sure the academics with a preconceived agenda against hierarchy of all forms have figured out how every successful business is doing it wrong
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by xwdv on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:59PM (#30971467)
By far the most inefficient part of the hierarchy is at the very bottom. Workers slacking off, not working optimally, and still getting paid for the full 40 hours. Wouldn’t need so much redundancy if you could truly get their full output.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by phoe-krk on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:07PM (#30971536)
> if you could truly get their full output.

Getting the relative most out of the bottom line workers and finding and taking care of the underperformers is the direct responsibility of their managers, and I'm saying this unironically. Managing is about being a performance multiplier, and the most hands-on part of management always involves concrete teams of people doing concrete dirty work.

It's the manager managers that are the problem mentioned here.

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by cpeterso on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:45PM (#30972372)
And the productivity of line workers doesn't matter if management is prioritizing the wrong projects. Bad managers have a bigger negative impact than bad line workers.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by alan-hn on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:05PM (#30971522)
Are you aware of any data or studies that back up this claim? I would love to read about it
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by willcipriano on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:43PM (#30972360)
> Wouldn’t need so much redundancy if you could truly get their full output.

The incentive structure is that those workers capture much less than the value of their total output. If they worked harder so the firm required less employees, how do they benefit?

Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by akomtu on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:52PM (#30971934)
It's always the horses who fail the king. If only those lazy animals did more than the bare minimum, the king wouldn't need to be such a despot.
Re:Middle managers fear they've become irrelevant with work ... by tonyedgecombe on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:02PM (#30971499)
That's a management problem as well.