My older child is a pre-teen constantly screaming and raging about the tiniest things. It’s a tremendous energy drain. But the children are certainly not the reason for my lurking depression: it was there before I had kids, and being a parent hasn’t magically transformed my life with meaning. These things are roughly orthogonal in my anecdotal experience.
I don't have fun with my kids. I have no more friend in real life (even before the pandemic). I can't even play computer games when I want to because my kids take too darn long to finish their homework and we live in a small home in Hong Kong. Even weekends are basically more studying and extra-curricular classes for my kids (ballet, phonics, mental math, painting). I've lost motivation to do much else. Nowadays I just burrow myself in reading fantasy novels when I have any time for myself, not even because I really enjoy them, but because I lack creativity and motivation to do much else.
> I don't have fun with my kids.
I think that’s a serious problem. Personally, I would prioritize that over all the studying and activities. They are kids. Fun is their job.
> I can't even play computer games when I want to because my kids take too darn long to finish their homework
Let them do their homework on their own, and you can play some games. It’s not your homework, let them do it.
Or just play games instead of the reading you don’t enjoy.
People, they’ll be fine without all the activities. Go out and have some fun together.
I suppose I should add a disclaimer, in case this wasn’t already implied: you don’t have to take any advice from other people.
Why do you feel the need to do so many extra-curricular activities related to child education? Can't you take your kids to the park, show them stuff and talk to them about it? One of the cool things that most adults forget about childhood is that everything is new for kids. Even stuff that kids are used to; they have really only scratched the surface of- they haven't had the time or the life experience to deeply understand things, but they also haven't had the life experience to become jaded or cynical. Spending some time around them doing stuff that is not homework, can be fun, or at least interesting.
Do you want to be unfulfilled?
If you truly cannot find joy in anything, then you are likely suffering from depression, and you should go see a doctor. It won't get better by itself.
Because this is Hong Kong, and if you want to get into a good high school, and then a good university later in life, this is what you do here, unless either A) your kid has really high IQ and would skip years or B) you are rich and don't mind just paying your way through international schools.
My kids are not case A), and I'm not rich enough for B).
Schools here ask you "what credentials do you have (other then regular education)?", "have you won any competition?", etc. I'm not even doing that much, compared to other really competitive families.
From the Wikipedia page for the examination required to get into Universities in HK, the number of test takers in 2020 is:
52,687 [0].
This doesn’t include students using international exams to get in, but that seems to be a fraction of this number.
Still very challenging but not 1 billion challenging.
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Diploma_of_Seconda...
There are 14 universities in Hong Kong of which 4 are well ranked. I would say the chances of getting into a decent university for HKers is actually much easier than for Mainland Chinese students.
There are some traditional families who feel the need to do a lot of extra curricular activities and tuition just so that there kid can go into the three prestigious subjects of law, medicine and finance but that's not all families.
>> Because this is Hong Kong, and if you want to get into a good high school, and then a good university later in life, this is what you do here, unless either A) your kid has really high IQ and would skip years or B) you are rich and don't mind just paying your way through international schools.
Sounds like the plot of GATTACA. Maybe people who don't live there should not hand out advice too easily?
Do they enjoy doing all these things? Thinking back to when I was a kid, I would rather have spent the time with friends, doing unplanned nothing special things.
I wonder if they don't actually have a weekend, instead, they have "work-end"?
What if both you and they would be happier, if you cancelled some of the extracurricular things.
Maybe they find things themselves to do -- for example, as a kid I bought books about software, and taught myself. But if you've decided that they are to learn painting etc (which is fun too I think :-)) then, maybe there's not much time left for them to decide?
Just some thoughts, what do I know. And I've made some guesses / assumptions about your situation, maybe they're incorrect
Edit: now i see you've in a way partly replied here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30933886
Sorry to hear about your struggles. I do fully agree that having kids won’t alleviate things like major depression and hope I didn’t give that impression.
>>My older child is a pre-teen constantly screaming and raging about the tiniest things. It’s a tremendous energy drain. But the children are certainly not the reason for my lurking depression: it was there before I had kids, and being a parent hasn’t magically transformed my life with meaning. These things are roughly orthogonal in my anecdotal experience.
I think this anecdote needs to become more mainstream form of advice, people are so quick to suggest having kids as a cure-all for people's depression or other mental health issues like it's just going to make everything else disappear.
Personally speaking I'm sorry to hear this, but this is also why I have put-off having kids--although its mainly for environmental issues, I can't see how people can in good-faith bring children into a World in which they will inherit such catastrophic climate change and a World where it's still possible that aging kleptocrats can shell and occupy a nuclear power plant, one of which was the location of the most dangerous environmental disasters of the 20th century and most people shrug it off and care more about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock!
Still, I don't know what the source of your depression is, and this is kind of harsh, but you are a cautionary tale for people like me: I have bouts of crippling weltschmertz after a life of being an environmentalist activist with a background in tech as a founder that merged the two together. As you can imagine it's certainly not as lucrative as destroying the World, and that is the saddest thing.
After 20 years at least I can go down knowing that while most of my existence have been a mix between Pyrrhic victories and burnout that I did more than I ever thought I would given the World I was forced to inherit.
My angst, rage and anger was channeled into something positive, and it helps but it's a corrosive and toxic form of fuel that corrodes you from within; hopefully you will in time be able to use the same energy draining you to do something that helps alleviate your situation.
The only time I don't feel the Weltschertz is when I'm building, the problem is that I can't anymore after destroying my body after 20 years of living this way and I'm having to heal all of these injuries: physical as well as mental.
It can be eye opening if the behavior has a neurological component, and it's always better to intervene early in these cases
I used to know a family that was as creative as folks would come (immediate family had renowned authors, world class academics, illustrator, etc.), and it was clear that the children played such a central role in continuing to foster a culture that was very creative and "alive." But, it was also true that both parents had WFH jobs (this was over a decade ago), extremely flexible schedules, and were very well off to do. In that context, having kids can be the forcing function you describe, especially if the parents in question are folks already predisposed to being curious and interesting people.
However, I suspect most adults end up suffering from a lack of energy. The daily toil ends up sapping so much of themselves that the necessary energy expenditure to be more child-like isn't there, and you get your usual couch potatoes, nappers, seemingly disinterested zombies. For someone in that situation, adding kids to the equation ends up becoming just ONE MORE THING to completely drain them every day.
Well, exactly. Its easier to be creative if you don't have financial or time constraints.
So I'm not sure having kids really matters here. I think the mindset change is more important. It's easy to forget that the world has so many interesting things to pick up and do literally anything with, much like your child. My friends who have kids don't think that way.
I can't sit still, so am always looking for new things to do. Having children do this with me bring joy to me, and to them.
Bored and giving up side-projects are two different things. I did give up side-projects after having my son, but it's far from being boring.
As for the job thing... I guess you don't frequent that many people with kids? Or you just happend to know unhappy people? I've changed jobs 2 times (well, 3 if you consider COVID related job loss) since my son was born.
Nowadays most families can't afford kids at the same standard of, let's say 40 years ago with the same amount of parents time.
I think it's crucial to be at home for kids and at maximum one working parent working full time
It took me a long time to acclimate to having children. I probably had postpartum depression as a dad. Especially early on, kids are a big stressor, and having them should be a deliberate choice.
It’s also the most impactful work you will ever do, and once you see that for yourself, it’s hard to see your career in exactly the same way.
I am in my 40s, and it's weird seeing my friends of 20 years remain static. The only ones that have changed are either people with children or a big catastrophe in their lives.
To be precise, I don't think it's the stress, but dealing with taking care of someone other than yourself.
Dealing with your own kids you start to understand humanity better. You understand your parents more, one of the funny things that happens, is you catch yourself responding to things the same way your parents did. Sometimes that's good, other times that's bad. This leads to self-evaluation. You have to ask how did I feel when my parents did this? What did I hate about my parents parenting style, what did I like?
If you don't have children, it's purely a theoretical question, the stakes are null. With your own children the stakes are the emotional, physical and intellectual health of your kids, it has to be taken seriously.
On the flip side you realize that we are all just kids in adult bodies. I see my children do things and I see parallels in my own behavior, or in the behavior of others. So not only do you understand your parents better, you understand yourself and humanity better.
Aside from getting a better understanding of human nature, you also have to start making decisions about your own needs vs the needs of others, in this case your children, and your co-parent. If your kid is throwing up at 2am, guess what, you can't just deal with it tomorrow. You start checking the weather to see does my kid need a coat, a rain coat, a t-shirt? As a side effect you start paying more attention externally. Questions like "how is my kid feeling right now?", or "why did they just do that?". Which means your empathy increases, and your emotional intelligence.
All of this presumes the ability to self-reflect. Which is something a large number of people lack, including parents. Basically if you ever see bad parents you will notice the common thread is lack of self-reflection and awareness. It's holding on to your past self which ultimately hurts your children, and your personal growth.
I'm still a software engineer and into fitness. After having kids I also had some experience with parenting.
By observing kids development you can also understand and experience how people grow into the adults you see everyday and I definitely think I understand psychology more.
Being a parent is also a great journey of self discovery. You'll learn how you react to stress, you'll realise things about your own childhood, you may uncover a series of problems you may have.
As much as I loved to think of myself as someone thinking older than my age, I was definitely less mature before having kids.
> You can do all of those things with children, and then you won't be a burden on society (...)
This is entirely dependent on the person. I think you're partially right that nobody will care about you (as much) as your kids (potentially) will.
If you spend your life focusing on yourself, then yeah, nobody will probably care about you. If you spend your life devoted to serving others and making an impact in your community then plenty of people will care about you when you're old. I've known many older people who have done great things for the community and the community gathers together to help them in return.
You affect other people caring about you through your actions.
thanks for your concern, but I'm not concerned :)
> help continue the human race, which is always good.
I disagree, which is part of why I'm not having kids!
The only issue I see is you taking the way others live their lives so personally lol
> Of course you aren't concerned NOW...in 30 or 40 years you certainly will be.
Looks like you've never met people who are happy without having kids. Meet some and come back to me, and I think our convo will be more productive
Once you're over a certain age you can't really change your mind. Some people decide to focus on their careers, but becoming a parent doesn't mean you won't reach your career goals.
Also, now that my kid is getting older and is starting to have actual interests (e.g. he's really into smart home stuff), I'm able to enjoy and participate in those things more.
Scenario 1: The over-achiever parent
I see this frequently, a parent that wants to be a super parent. This manifests in a bunch of different ways, but usually it's enrolling their kids to 15 different activities essentially running all over the place being glorified taxis for their kids.
Then their kids don't know how to function if there is nothing to do.
Scenario 2: The I'm missing our parent
Parents that either had kids too early, or not by choice. They feel like they missed out, so they lament about all the fun they didn't have. This is a weird form of resistance to reality. What usually happens is that they will get a divorce, to somehow escape their children. I am 40, so I see it with people my age, they divorce, see their kids 2-4 times a week and do crazy stuff to somehow recapture their youth.
In my opinion it's about keeping a good balance. If you never make time for yourself that's a mistake. If you put the bar too high as a parent you are bound to miss. The simplest approach is to carve out some time to yourself, balancing things out with your significant other. Enrolling your kids in 1-2 activities out of school and recognizing that not every single minute of a day needs to be hyper-optimized.
I know plenty of people who don't have this kind of support group and/or are unwilling to use sitters in any form.
Part of this is just having a kid under 5 apparently, but I can't imagine being able to survive with more than one, much less retain a creative pursuit.
...and since I have a bunch of kids. It gets easier. People talk about terrible 2s, but I feel that 3 and 4 are much harder. They are old enough to know what they want, but not old enough to get it. They can communicate but not 100% or with appropriate level of specificity. They also have the amazing ability to know how to push buttons, part of carving an identity for themselves.
Each year though it gets easier. It's true for all four of mine, and they do have different speeds, they mature at different rates, but overall the trend is always less dependency, which as a single parent you need.
I totally feel your pain though. So I hope you are doing OK.
As an extra tip, totally unsolicited of course. Start doing chores, boring tasks with your kid. Even if they are little. It does a few good things.
1. You have to do the chores anyway, might as well do them when you can't relax (since the kid is going to ask/need things). This way when they go to sleep, you don't have a bunch of things to do, you can fully relax.
2. You are teaching them life skills. They learn by watching and doing. This will also allow you to bond over simple life stuff
3. As they get older, they can have their own chores and lighten your load and if nothing else appreciate what you do for them a tiny bit more
You said your kid is under 5, so I'll give you some examples.
Age 2: pickup toys (I pretend that the toy bin/bucket is a monster that's hungry for toys). Press buttons (for example to start the dishwasher). Throw things in the garbage (hungry garbage can)
Age 3: they can start wiping things, taking their place to the kitchen counter, take items from one room to another. Dusting
Age 4: can start help you cook safely, things like dumping a teaspoon of salt in the food, stirring (obviously no boiling stuff), mopping (rather badly, but they have a blast), sweeping (make sure you duck :), putting dirty laundry away, folding kitchen towels
Age 5: I let them start cutting simple things like bananas, start making breakfast (cereal, toast then scrambled eggs). Pickup their room with some pointers. Assist in cleaning the bathroom and kitchen counters.
Hope it helped.
I didn’t say it was always easy, but that’s fine by me because it’s not actually soul-crushingly difficult (again, another misconception popular among young people without kids that turned out to be wrong).
The older I get, the more I realize that my friends who optimize for minimal effort (no kids, reluctant to leave the house, picky about what they attend) are gradually sliding into very boring and unfulfilled existences.
YMMV and don’t let my experience be your only guide
But I had the same exact feeling. After the first year or two (infant stage is tough, no denying it) I’m actually right back to my hobbies just as before.
It takes more planning now to do the weekend hobby events that are out of town, but it’s still plenty doable.
I’ve also realized that the number of years that your kids are young and require a lot of attention is actually fairly small. I plan to live to at least 80 and the most attentive child-raising years are only a small fraction of that.
I know I'll likely figure it out, as I have everything in my life so far. That doesn't prevent that dread from creeping up, though.
The hobby is sports. I'm relatively gifted as a "hybrid" athlete, if I work hard at it I can get podium finishes at OCR / Hyrox type events. I'd still do it without that though, it produces an emotional state that, while not taking away the rational thought that there's ultimately not much purpose to anything that I do, makes me not really care about that at all. Makes things make sense even when they don't.
However, the fact that it (a) combines really poorly with a lack of sleep and (b) has an expiration date (athletic ability is of course age bound) do contribute to the sense of dread.
But now that I think about it, it's the same with children. When a 30 year old parent hits the 50 year old mark his children would likely be already left from home. So it's almost the same, still many years left.
PD: No notifications from HN is great. Nothing will happen if you forget to answer to an stranger on the internet. I'd have forgotten to check your response if I hadn't manually be looking for something in my own comments' history
I think by and large it's a good thing, but in certain cases "nothing will happen" isn't the outcome I'm looking for ;).
The reason I started thinking about having a family is that I was done with partying.
The idea of going out for drinks doesn't sound too appealing, but it's the popular thing to say
I get to keep the kids busy, see if they have fun with something, and judge if it's something I'd personally enjoy. If we both end up liking it, then great! Something more to share with them.
I mean, they're right there, you already know them, and get to show them all sorts of new and fascinating things?
What I can say, however, is that I'm absolutely thrilled when I watch my kids watch Home Alone while they go crazy with scream and laughter at Joe Pesci and Daniel Stern getting physically abused by an eight year old with booby traps that would be lethal in real life.
In any case, I've always hoped for your experience.
When I hang out with my parent friends they have one mono topic of conversation: their kids and related subjects.
As far as conversation topics go, my friends and I rarely spend more than a few minutes here and there discussing our kids. We all have much more interesting things to talk about and kids don't really come up.
I guess you're extrapolating too much based on your own personal experience.
I won't argue that there are no parents who bore you, but fundamentally that isn't due to being a parent.
Those are the things that brought joy and interest to my life.
Can you explain how I can do those things as a parent? Parenthood is the long stride on low gear. Before I may have been mugged or killed in a barrio or shot by ISIS but it was far more interesting.
I think a lot of parents lie to themselves. You can always a borrow a or foster a kid if you want to do kid activities, but you can't just get rid of your own kid. On that alone your life becomes much less interesting, at least in my case. If the things you find interesting are child friendly, your mileage may vary.
I do try to take the conversation away from children when talking to fellow parents but there's a percentage of which you can't derail because they have little to offer to talk about other than children.
Most hobbies and goals are compatible with being a parent. Yours are not. If anybody else here reads this from a warzone they've entered voluntarily, don't take my comments above as relevant to you :)
It sounds like you're struggling quite a bit with the change of pace. I know a couple of people who have voluntarily fought in foreign warzones and travelled conflict areas, and neither are coping well with being home in the mundane. I hope you can find something that helps. Therapy might if you can find somebody good.
It's not necessarily more interesting than raising a child. But for some people it may be.
I guess it's not surprising people have different tastes in activities in life.
because all that stuff costs time and money.
realistically, you'd need to make enough money to cover the kid's stuff and saving. if you have anything left after that, only then can you devote anything to travel or hobbies.
I'm currently in the same boat as the guy above. what I make could comfortable support a family but I can instead help my girlfriend pay for college and hop between countries whenever I feel like it while pursuing learning electronics. I wouldn't be able to do these things if I was stuck paying rent on a house and covering food/ activities for a child.
I do all the things listed above. I also have kids. They aren't incompatible.
The biggest lesson I learnt when we had our first kid was that I really wasn't as efficient at spending my time and money as I'd thought. Once the time constraints hit I became a lot more intentional about how I invested both, and the quality of my personal achievements has gone up as a result.
Don't have kids until/unless you're ready, but don't assume they're going to destroy your personal life either. There's lots of room for personal goals and growth even with kids. You still have a lot of control over your own life. After the first year of chaos anyway :)
Most parents are just beat down managing two jobs, taking kids to all the classes, doing chores in the house, worrying about career ect.
I was starting to feel this way before I had kids, but having kids completely changed everything for the more interesting.
It’s funny because it’s the exact opposite of what I was told would happen: The story goes that you have kids, lose yourself, and become a boring old parent. Instead, I’m never lacking for fun or creative ideas because I can pick up a creative and hilarious child and go do literally anything together and we’ll have a good time. I’m meeting more new and interesting people than I have at any point since college simply by doing parent things and meeting other parents. I still have time to work on one specific side project, but I’ve learned to stop grinding through the side projects that I didn’t really enjoy anyway. Becoming a parent is a great forcing function to get out and shake up your priorities.
Obviously I’m not recommending becoming a parent as a solution to this problem. However, I wanted to note that the realities of becoming a parent are literally the opposite of what I was led to believe by peers and social media while growing up. Contrary to everything I was told, it’s actually the childless people and couples I know who are entering these periods of “boring” where they struggle for interest or motivation or meaning, while us parents are off having an extremely non-boring and fun time with this new chapter.