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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jmchuster on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:12PM (#28649179)
> But it could help explain why Columbus, a Genoese, was prepared to set off across what most contemporaries considered a landless void.

I had always thought that Columbus made the trip because he miscalculated the distance around the globe, while everyone else was saying they'd starve before reaching Asia. He was just lucky enough there happened to be land halfway there, and then mistakenly assumed he made it, since the Caribbean was where he wrongly thought Asia was going to be.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by throw0101a on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:27PM (#28649273)
> I had always thought that Columbus made the trip because he miscalculated the distance around the globe, while everyone else was saying they'd starve before reaching Asia.

In the late 1400s people thought the Asian continent was larger than it is in reality. So when Columbus et co saw islands they thought they had hit Japan†… roughly where all the best maps of the day said it would be.

See Toscanelli's 1474 map, which is what Columbus was going by:

* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Atlantic_Ocean,_Tosc...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_dal_Pozzo_Toscanelli

† Cipangu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan#Jipangu

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:46AM (#28651043)
It's interesting how deeply wrong we were at that time, while we precedently knew all the dimensions and distance of most parts of the globe with pretty high accuracy.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:03AM (#28652130)
We "did." [0]

What we did not know was an accurate way to determine longitude, specifically on a ship, until 1761. [1] [2]

Consequently, any voyage before 1761 knew its latitude exactly, but dead-reckoned its longitude.

33 days of speed-estimated dead reckoning in 1492, plus having no idea of the speed or orientation of the underlying current you're in, leaves a lot of room for error.

[0] For values of "did" that include "the correct answer had been derived and was documented (Eratosthenes, within ~2.5% in ~240 BC, working at the Library of Alexandria), but it wasn't broadly accepted as the correct answer." Thus leading to Columbus believing an incorrect value instead https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_circumference#Colu...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison#H4

[2] Except via some very complicated planetary transits that were pre-calculated and could only be used as they occured. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude#Satelli...

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:25AM (#28652248)
So we knew the right answer but we didn't accept it as correct so most people followed suit.

It's fascinating. We are on the same track today. We know the truth but most of us jump on the same entirely wrong band wagons.

One could argue that ignoring the truth is worse than pure ignorance.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:43AM (#28652337)
I guess my perspective (from watching struggles with public health & vaccine development information during early COVID-19) is that modern intellects aren't well exercised with respect to uncertainty.

Our predecessors lived in a culture suffused with unreliable information. There weren't even "alternate" facts, because there were few accepted ones to have alternatives to.

On the one hand, we know more than they did (stronger & longer mandatory education + post-primary + informal access). On the other hand, we've forgotten how to responsibly handle uncertainty.

Or, as I sum it all up: science should be a verb (aka process), not a noun (result).

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by dragonwriter on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:18AM (#28653408)
> On the other hand, we've forgotten how to responsibly handle uncertainty.

No, we're actually (thankfully) a lot better at that than 15th Century Europe.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:21AM (#28653420)
Local minima aren't the historically average bar to exceed.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by dragonwriter on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:26AM (#28653454)
> Local minima aren't the historically average bar to exceed.

I wasn't picking out a local minims on either end (well, not intentionally); I was picking out the times being compared (that of Columbus vs. now) from the context of the discussion.

But really, the same applies to the whole of history from the ancient period up through and including all of the early modern period vs. say, any time from the mid-20th century on, to avoid any problems with overspecificity on either end.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:54AM (#28653649)
History renders comparisons murky and imprecise, but my point was more contingent on the availability of quality information than behavior.

Now, we know many things. Then, we did not know many things (although we perhaps believed more).

So an every-person (I'm talking generally, not only of the most scientific), plucked from a more ignorant time of history, would have a more developed method of dealing with confusion.

I don't quite buy the counter-argument (if this is yours?) that we're a more scientific society. I would have before COVID, but not now...

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:43AM (#28652713)
We don't know more than we did. We have a strong belief that our cumulated knowledge, tools and infrastructure are leading to more accurate knowledge. We accomplish technological advancements that comfort us in the idea we know better. That's all.

Science could be made a verb, but like wisdom, calling something science doesn't de facto make it so.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:19AM (#28653411)
Not sure if you're arguing from an epistemological or objective basis, but I'll assume the latter.

We know that our knowledge better describes the results we reliably reproduce in the world around us.

We have knowledge about things that our ancestors did not.

If that doesn't constitute "knowing more than they did," I'm not sure what does.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Sunday September 26, 2021 @01:33AM (#28658660)
We don't know that. All we know is that we have further knowledge that at certain points in time.

We have a tendency to assume we know more than at any other time before on the basis that we know more than our rather recent ancestors.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by CRConrad on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:17AM (#28680148)
> All we know is that we have further knowledge that at certain points in time.

What does that mean, if not "we know more than they did"?

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Beldin on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:19PM (#28656653)
We actually do know more. Sure, physics is basically modelling and observations. Our current models might be completely wrong - even if their predictive power is far greater.

But we've also made some genuine proofs. For example, we know that Fermat's last theorem is correct. That was suspected, but not known.

Yes, this applies basically to all of maths - and even to other disciplines that produce proofs. Another example: we know that one model of gravity permits black holes, wormholes, and warp drives. Sure, the model might not accurately reflect reality. But still: this is something we know nowadays, that we didn't know 105 years ago.

Not to mention all the things we collectively have done - we know it's possible to leave Earth, to live in orbit for a while, to convert sunlight directly into electricity, that it is (barely) possible to run the 100m in under 10 sec, what the earth looks like from a distance, how to make fusion bombs, how to fly... we know a lot more than folks from even the early 1900s, let alone further back.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by B1FF_PSUVM on Saturday September 25, 2021 @09:15AM (#28652932)
It's a new theology ...
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by chmod600 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:22PM (#28655083)
I think decades of diluting the word "science" with observational studies and other psuedoscientific junk was a mistake.

Vaccine efficacy and safety is one of the few things mentioned in the media as science that really is actually science.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ethbr0 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:09PM (#28655445)
Yes and no. The public's (and media's) inability to differentiate between preprints, efficacy vs safety trial stages, and basic statistics boggled my mind.

I guess pre-COVID I would have said "Some people are ignorant." Post-COVID experience, I'd agree more with "Some people are ignorant and refuse to admit their ignorance, to the extent of cherry picking reality."

It's like expecting some people were bad at math, but getting a stack of tests back where half have multi-page essays on why numbers don't exist.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Sunday September 26, 2021 @02:07AM (#28658767)
The effect of constructionism coupled with post modernism offering an attractive alternative to the complicated math.

And it isn't only half idiots promoting these ideas.

Just take a look at The Craft of Writing Effectively from the university of Chicago, social science of course. You will be even more baffled, it is a hard to believe and difficult to watch lecture. Apparently these things are university approved and now watched in the millions on YouTube.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by simonebrunozzi on Monday September 27, 2021 @03:07AM (#28667920)
> Consequently, any voyage before 1761 knew its latitude exactly, but dead-reckoned its longitude.

Correct. This is key to understand most of the issues at play in these past events.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by santiagobasulto on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:43AM (#28651034)
It's interesting that in Toscanelli's map it also appears the "Antillia"[0] island mentioned in another comment. There was definitively some knowledge of land in between, maybe they just didn't know it was a huge continent.

[0] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Antillia

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by arp242 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:28AM (#28651513)
If you look to the west from Europe you see a vast sea. It doesn't take a great deal of effort to imagine some form of land beyond or in that sea. You would be quite a boring and unimaginative person to not wonder about this.

Edgar Allen Poe's novel The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket details a fictional account of what might be in the Antarctic, an unexplored area in his time. We now know that Poe's imagined account is a far cry from the reality of the Antarctic continent, but he could have been "right" in that there are people living there. That doesn't really imply any knowledge of such lands though. If Poe had lived several hundreds years earlier he might have written a similar story with s/Antarctic/across the Atlantic/.

Add a few hundreds years with confusion between "fiction" (or "myth" or "legend", if you will) and "science" (a concept which didn't really exist in the first place, at least not in the same form) and things get very murky fast.

I don't think that the mere existence of the concept of "Antillia" really proves any actual knowledge; there needs to be some additional evidence; reading that Wikipedia page there doesn't seem to be any. We'll likely never know for certain if the roots of Antillia were based in reality or entirely fictional.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by mmmmmbop on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:19AM (#28651956)
> We now know that Poe's imagined account is a far cry from the reality of the Antarctic continent, but he could have been "right" in that there are people living there.

Which people do you mean?

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by arp242 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:56AM (#28652799)
The natives Poe imagined to be living in the Antarctic in his novel.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by throw0101a on Saturday September 25, 2021 @09:27AM (#28653009)
Phantom island have been around for a while:

> Sandy Island (sometimes labelled in French Île de Sable, and in Spanish Isla Arenosa) is a non-existent island that was charted for over a century as being located near the French territory of New Caledonia between the Chesterfield Islands and Nereus Reef in the eastern Coral Sea.[1] The island was included on many maps and nautical charts from as early as the late 19th century. It was removed from French hydrographic charts in 1974. The island gained wide media and public attention in November 2012 when the R/V Southern Surveyor, an Australian research ship,[2] passed through the area and "undiscovered" it. The island was quickly removed from many maps and data sets, including those of the National Geographic Society and Google Maps.[3]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Island,_New_Caledonia

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by phil_folrida on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:11AM (#28652507)
It is highly speculative to say Japan, even today we reference Native American as Indians.

He was thinking they reached India.

Same mistake today people do with Miles and Kilometer, when you are raised in one or another it is difficult to switch.

Erastothene was speaking in stadium, Columbus in Nautic miles.

The Spanish crown was motivated by greed.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by mannykannot on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:27AM (#28652595)
At the time, the term "indies" was widely used for eastern Asia and eastern lands generally.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Indies

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Chris2048 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @11:04AM (#28653714)
Ireland looks pretty big there compared to the British mainland, and Scotland pretty diminished.

Funny how those parts are also disproportioned.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by joecot on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:27PM (#28649269)
Columbus thought India was closer than it was because birds could be seen returning to the West Coast of England with twigs and leaves from somewhere. Portugal, Spain and anyone else he asked thought he was wrong because that would've required the Earth to be around 20k miles in circumference, when the Ancient Greeks had calculated it to be 24k miles in circumference (and they were very close in their calculations). Columbus turned out to be right that there was land there, he was just wrong about what the land was.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by crakenzak on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:32PM (#28649296)
> birds could be seen returning to the West Coast of England with twigs and leaves from somewhere.

Are you saying birds were carrying twigs over the Atlantic from Americas -> Europe?? Genuinely curious as to if birds actually do that, seems pointless.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sandworm101 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:53AM (#28650847)
It doesn't matter whether the birds did or didn't. What matters is that people of the time thought birds were bringing in sticks from somewhere west. People believed there was a land out there. Whether or not the observations behind those beliefs are credible doesn't take away from the fact of their believing there was a land to find.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by comex on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:28AM (#28650975)
It doesn’t matter, but it’s interesting.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ant6n on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:47AM (#28652069)
If birds do do that, it's a strong indication that people may have actually believed it happened, rather than the believe being just a myth.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sfblah on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:18AM (#28650935)
I mean, the real question is whether they carried any coconuts.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by httgp on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:25AM (#28650965)
That, and if they were African or European.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Tagbert on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:04PM (#28654599)
Trick question… they were American
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jamiek88 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:35AM (#28650997)
Fully laden you say?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jobigoud on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:01AM (#28651109)
Another piece of land to the west before the Americas is the Azores archipelago roughly half way between Europe and Newfoundlannd. Maybe the bird came from there. This was known to Europeans well before Colombus trip.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:47AM (#28651049)
Not a twig, but there is a recorded case of a bird making it to Europe after being shot with an African arrow. (Which it involuntarily carried with it.)
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by distances on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:55AM (#28651080)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfeilstorch

But that's different, I doubt birds intentionally carry anything from Africa either.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:56AM (#28651371)
"Before migration was understood, people struggled to explain the sudden annual disappearance of birds like the white stork and barn swallow. Besides migration, some theories of the time held that they turned into other kinds of birds, mice, or hibernated underwater during the winter, and such theories were even propagated by zoologists of the time."

Ok, it seems that Aristoteles believed, that birds actually transformed, but zoologist of that time at most believed, that they hibernated underwater", which seems a more solid theory, than transforming.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:26AM (#28651502)
Transforming isn't exactly unknown; all insects do it.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:30AM (#28651524)
Yes, but by the 18.th century, we knew that birds and mammals are a bit more complex than insects and quite shape stable.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @05:20AM (#28651718)
Shape stability would be an example of being less complex than insects.

And as you can see, we did not in fact know that in the 18th century. Transformations are not so easy to observe directly; they often happen e.g. underground.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:53AM (#28652088)
"Shape stability would be an example of being less complex than insects."

Not if the shape is stable, because the underlying cells are too complex to merge into something different. Cells were known already. And that insects transform is known, but birds were closely known and there was not observation of them changing drastically. So that Aristoteles had this thinking is understandable given the time, but after enlightenment, I would not expect that from the early scientists.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:39PM (#28655206)
> Not if the shape is stable, because the underlying cells are too complex to merge into something different.

This is not a valid concept. Vertebrates develop from stem cells the same way insects do.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sdiupIGPWEfh on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:35PM (#28657950)
> Besides migration, some theories of the time held that they turned into other kinds of birds...

Makes me think of loons, which completely change their plumage for the winter in addition to migrating from fresh water lakes to oceanic waters. Without close study, you might not realize they're the same birds.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by larsbrinkhoff on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:02AM (#28651112)
You have it wrong. It was carrying a coconut.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by interestica on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:36PM (#28649315)
> seems pointless

I'm more wondering about the effects of seed/life transfer. Doesn't seem feasible to me.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jcims on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:41PM (#28650005)
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hadlock on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:28PM (#28649933)
Every year or two, people decide to fly from North America to Europe in a short range Cessna. They get the extra fuel tankage package, then hop from PEI to Greenland, Greenland to Iceland, then Iceland to.... Svalbard, or maybe somewhere in the Scotish Isles. From there it's pretty standard flight operations over local bodies of water. If a Cessna can do it, that's well within a bird's migratory travel distance.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by EamonnMR on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:54PM (#28650056)
Yeah but you think they'd save fuel and locally source the twigs
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by scythe on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:52AM (#28650840)
Possibly not if the goal is to impress a potential mate.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by heavenlyblue on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:58AM (#28652422)
Have you just invented this or is that actually some well-known fact that birds impress potential mates this way?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by washadjeffmad on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:48AM (#28652740)
The joke is that the Cessna fliers are doing it to collect the twigs.

If you edit out 'birds', it'd be pure comedy.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by repiret on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:43AM (#28650619)
I was under the impression that was still the standard way to move GA aircraft across the Atlantic, and happened regularly.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by aasasd on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:49AM (#28651341)
A bit different, but IIRC some seeds spread by passing through birds' digestive tract—which sidesteps the bird's decisions on the luggage. However, I'd guess the distance travelled is much shorter in this case.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by riffraff on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:30AM (#28650982)
Barnacle goose do migrate from Greenland to the British isles, but I do not know if Greenland is considered north America.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by eCa on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:58AM (#28651097)
Yes, Greenland is geographically in North America.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hkt on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:42AM (#28651306)
They could have been coming from Ireland too..
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by fartingflamingo on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:43AM (#28651593)
One of the only species of birds known to be capable of transatlantic flight, and also credibly thought to regularly making the crossing [0] is the magnificent frigate bird [1]. The bird has a super interesting capability of flying on a single half of the brain. Remarkably similar to single slower core operation of a computer... [2]

[0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274193260_Has_the_m...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnificent_frigatebird

[2] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2016.008...

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by pedrosorio on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:59AM (#28652814)
From Wikipedia: “Frigatebirds (…) sometimes indulge in kleptoparasitism, harassing other birds to force them to regurgitate their food”

I knew birds could regurgitate food (to feed their young) but this is something else…

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by kevinmchugh on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:15PM (#28650158)
Isn't the land west of England just...Ireland?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by slater on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:16PM (#28650163)
Wales?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Chris2048 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @11:10AM (#28653752)
Given they are talking about sailing-off, I'd venture they mean the island west of the isle-on-which-England-resides.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by slater on Saturday September 25, 2021 @11:43AM (#28653968)
Oh I see. Yes, so... Anglesey? :D
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by weswpg on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:24AM (#28650962)
Again, Columbus was not a very clever man.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by CRConrad on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:42AM (#28680280)
Let's first see you wangle tens or hundreds of millions in today's money from the Spanish Crown, then you can say that.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by pedrosorio on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:53AM (#28652782)
> Columbus thought India was closer than it was because birds could be seen returning to the West Coast of England with twigs and leaves from somewhere

The Portuguese settled the Azores before Columbus was born, so this sounds like a weird reason to believe India was closer.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by stormdennis on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:23AM (#28650953)
Ireland is an island lying less than 100 miles west of England.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by notcoolbezos on Sunday September 26, 2021 @04:48AM (#28659374)
so the older civilizations like greeks or romans did not know about the americas? We've come a long way in 500 hundred years!
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by buescher on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:28PM (#28649278)
Educated people already knew the circumference of the globe. Columbus’ miscalculation was… hopeful. There’s a sort of conspiracy theory that it was deliberate - how else was he going to get funding?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ad404b8a372f2b9 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:45AM (#28652056)
It reminds me of Amundsen. He wanted to be the first man at the north pole and raised funds to mount an expedition. However while he was planning his expedition other explorers beat him there. Without telling anyone but his crew, on the day of departure he headed south and was the first man to reach the south-pole, using funds raised for arctic exploration.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Andrex on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:15PM (#28650160)
I believe in current parlance that is called "hustle."

(Or in less generous terms, "fraud.")

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by bserge on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:09AM (#28650449)
"Startup."
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sammorrowdrums on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:19AM (#28650721)
“Disrupting navigation”
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by yissp on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:30AM (#28652613)
European contact with the new world was pretty disruptive indeed.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ncmncm on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:11AM (#28650456)
"Conspiracy" would mean somebody else was in on it. By definition.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hirako2000 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:49AM (#28651056)
Magellan must have been.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by JudgePenitent on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:13AM (#28651154)
Columbus made a voyage to Bristol in the UK and certainly came across merchants who had travelled in the northern reaches, Iceland in particular. It is suggested that he did indeed travel to Iceland although the source we have for it is quite a few degrees removed from Columbus claiming it.

The Vikings/Norsemen had already spread awareness of Vinland to monks in Iceland, as the sagas regarding Vinland were written down about 100 years before Columbus visited Bristol. Did Columbus or other merchants in the North hear of these sagas? Did they come into contact with the written versions of these sagas?

Italian merchants had a serious incentive to find alternative trading routes.

There is a deeper question of why a man would go on a theoretically suicidal voyage, and on top of that, be funded by royalty to do so. Believing in your miscalculations is courageous I suppose, but its your life at stake; would a pious man be willing to kill himself chasing possible alternative geographic calculations?

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by CRConrad on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:45AM (#28680300)
> There is a deeper question of why a man would go on a theoretically suicidal voyage, and on top of that, be funded by royalty to do so.

For the Spanish crown, it could have been just a matter of hedging its bets. It was a huge amount of money to one man or enterprise, but not so much to one of the great powers of Europe.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hasmanean on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:25AM (#28652240)
Humans are not very good at seeing patterns when they have preconceptions.

Norse mythology talked about a land full of woodland elves who had very long life spans, that could only be reached after a journey of many months through the land of the frost giants and across a rainbow shaped bridge. Odin and Loki are said to have made this trip.

The real life explanation is probably that 2 Norseman crossed Siberia and crossed the Bering Strait to visit B.C.

The way we imagine it? An interdimensional gate leads to a spiritual realm in the sky called Asgard filled with gods (whatever the hell that means) who are immortal.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by simonh on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:28AM (#28652597)
Or someone ate some trippy mushrooms.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by zeteo on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:31AM (#28650987)
I always find it fascinating that people are so much more interested in why he sailed for America rather than how. Columbus was a navigator, not a geographer. His true discovery was not America (which plenty of people, including some Europeans, had reached before) but the replicable transatlantic voyage.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thevardanian on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:27PM (#28649272)
A lot of early voyages funded by the various crowns was actually put under extreme secrecy so much so that many sailors would only later be told of the real voyage...

At least that's what I recall reading awhile back. If anyone could corroborate that would be nice.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by mannykannot on Saturday September 25, 2021 @09:21AM (#28652967)
The value of secrecy in matters of commerce and state has probably been recognized from the get-go. Beyond that, nobody thought sailors had much in the way of rights; in 1571, almost a century later, there were tens of thousands of galley-slaves on both sides in the battle of Lepanto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley_slave#Europe

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about what Columbus's crews were told. It does seem they were free men (four of whom signed up in return for an amnesty) and were paid:

http://www.christopher-columbus.eu/ships-crew.htm

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by krapp on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:25PM (#28649254)
> and then mistakenly assumed he made it, since the Caribbean was where he wrongly thought Asia was going to be.

... which is why Native Americans have been referred to as "Indians," because Columbus was certain he'd reached the Indies.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by interestica on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:37PM (#28649321)
And why the Caribbean is alternatively known as the West Indies.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by tialaramex on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:25PM (#28649582)
"No, of course not, not North Wales" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-uemc-e3w
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by felipelemos on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:20AM (#28651959)
It's important to remember that he thought he was in the Indian sea, not the Indian country. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/mnvt37/did_t...
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by mannykannot on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:58AM (#28652811)
Even if Columbus was aware of Chiesa's work (no evidence for it being widely known is given here) or had independently heard of the Norse discoveries, he could have assumed they had reached some part of Asia already speculatively sketched on the maps of the day.

As others have pointed out, what Columbus believed and what he said in order to acquire funding are two different things. At the time, the prospect of finding an unknown continent would have been less motivating than that of finding a new route to an area known as a source of wealth; only in retrospect is the value of the former obvious.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by tootie on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:17PM (#28649212)
Given that nobody knew about this book for centuries, it seems pretty unlikely that Columbus saw it. Let alone, saw it and believed it and discounted the giants and also didn't mention it to anyone.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by blfr on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:22PM (#28649242)
I think the idea is that he heard the same tales because he was in the same milieu, not that he read that book.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by tailspin2019 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:02AM (#28650880)
TIL a cool new word; "milieu"

> the physical or social setting in which something occurs or develops

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milieu

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ochrist on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:59AM (#28651378)
The Danish (Scandinavian) word 'miljø' usually translates to 'environment'.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by tgflynn on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:10AM (#28652156)
Milieu is a French word. My guess is that your Danish word is also derived from the French.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by CRConrad on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:15AM (#28680422)
And in French it means, pretty much, "environment". In Swedish, I'd guess Norwegian, and in a way even in Finnish, it's "Miljö" is used as in Danish: Mainly to signify the natural environment at large; "Greta kämpar för miljön" means "Greta fights for the environment". (Though in Finnish, the native "ympäristö" is used much more than the loan "miljöö".)

In German, though, AIUI "das Milieu" usually means a different kind of environment: That of crime and shady business. "Es bewegt sich was im Milieu" is something a worried cop could say, meaning approximately "something's happening on the streets".

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by pyuser583 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:21PM (#28655080)
Columbus knew the distance around the globe. That was accurately determined by ancient Greeks.

What Columbus (and the Greeks) did not know was the size of landmasses in proportion to each other.

They thought Europe was much, much larger than it was. Large enough to leave little room for ocean between the Azores and East Asia.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by otabdeveloper4 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:00AM (#28650869)
No, that was just the story he told to his venture investors. Fishermen probably had lots of circumstantial evidence for America at the time, but explaining that to a venture capitalist is much harder than spinning some fantabulous tall tale. (People do this sort of thing today too.)
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by dboreham on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:46AM (#28650810)
Probably fake history. Modern thinking is that Columbus had a pretty good idea where he was going because others had already been there.
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by weswpg on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:26AM (#28650969)
Why is the area referred to as "the west Indies" unless he thought it was India
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Tabular-Iceberg on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:47AM (#28651053)
My theory is that it means not the actual Indies, but a place like the Indies, but to the west. I suspect Europeans at the time though of India less as where the Indians live and more like a place to get cool stuff, and cool stuff was indeed found in the West Indies too.

A bit like chicken of the sea. It’s not that they’re saying that tuna is a form of waterfowl, just that the two have common applications.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by tremon on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:39AM (#28652039)
"The Indies" referred to the known archipelago in the Indian Ocean (now Indonesia and the Philippines). The Caribbean is also an archipelago, so if Columbus believed himself to be in the Indian Ocean, it's not that odd for him to assume he'd reached the western end of the same archipelago.

India is not a collection of islands, it's unlikely that Columbus mistook an archipelago for a known vast land mass.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by heavenlyblue on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:08AM (#28652482)
You mean Eastern end of the archipelago?
Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by pbhjpbhj on Saturday September 25, 2021 @05:36AM (#28651788)
If he thought it was India then it should have been the East India ...

Also, I think Indies was used to refer to Asia in general, rather than specifically India. But am open to correction.

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by koheripbal on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:41AM (#28652330)
That is not modern thinking