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A comment on A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas. Parent comment

Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by crakenzak on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:32PM (#28649296)
> birds could be seen returning to the West Coast of England with twigs and leaves from somewhere.

Are you saying birds were carrying twigs over the Atlantic from Americas -> Europe?? Genuinely curious as to if birds actually do that, seems pointless.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sandworm101 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:53AM (#28650847)
It doesn't matter whether the birds did or didn't. What matters is that people of the time thought birds were bringing in sticks from somewhere west. People believed there was a land out there. Whether or not the observations behind those beliefs are credible doesn't take away from the fact of their believing there was a land to find.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by comex on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:28AM (#28650975)
It doesn’t matter, but it’s interesting.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by ant6n on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:47AM (#28652069)
If birds do do that, it's a strong indication that people may have actually believed it happened, rather than the believe being just a myth.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sfblah on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:18AM (#28650935)
I mean, the real question is whether they carried any coconuts.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by httgp on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:25AM (#28650965)
That, and if they were African or European.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by Tagbert on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:04PM (#28654599)
Trick question… they were American
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jamiek88 on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:35AM (#28650997)
Fully laden you say?
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jobigoud on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:01AM (#28651109)
Another piece of land to the west before the Americas is the Azores archipelago roughly half way between Europe and Newfoundlannd. Maybe the bird came from there. This was known to Europeans well before Colombus trip.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:47AM (#28651049)
Not a twig, but there is a recorded case of a bird making it to Europe after being shot with an African arrow. (Which it involuntarily carried with it.)
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by distances on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:55AM (#28651080)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfeilstorch

But that's different, I doubt birds intentionally carry anything from Africa either.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:56AM (#28651371)
"Before migration was understood, people struggled to explain the sudden annual disappearance of birds like the white stork and barn swallow. Besides migration, some theories of the time held that they turned into other kinds of birds, mice, or hibernated underwater during the winter, and such theories were even propagated by zoologists of the time."

Ok, it seems that Aristoteles believed, that birds actually transformed, but zoologist of that time at most believed, that they hibernated underwater", which seems a more solid theory, than transforming.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:26AM (#28651502)
Transforming isn't exactly unknown; all insects do it.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:30AM (#28651524)
Yes, but by the 18.th century, we knew that birds and mammals are a bit more complex than insects and quite shape stable.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @05:20AM (#28651718)
Shape stability would be an example of being less complex than insects.

And as you can see, we did not in fact know that in the 18th century. Transformations are not so easy to observe directly; they often happen e.g. underground.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hutzlibu on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:53AM (#28652088)
"Shape stability would be an example of being less complex than insects."

Not if the shape is stable, because the underlying cells are too complex to merge into something different. Cells were known already. And that insects transform is known, but birds were closely known and there was not observation of them changing drastically. So that Aristoteles had this thinking is understandable given the time, but after enlightenment, I would not expect that from the early scientists.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by thaumasiotes on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:39PM (#28655206)
> Not if the shape is stable, because the underlying cells are too complex to merge into something different.

This is not a valid concept. Vertebrates develop from stem cells the same way insects do.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by sdiupIGPWEfh on Saturday September 25, 2021 @10:35PM (#28657950)
> Besides migration, some theories of the time held that they turned into other kinds of birds...

Makes me think of loons, which completely change their plumage for the winter in addition to migrating from fresh water lakes to oceanic waters. Without close study, you might not realize they're the same birds.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by larsbrinkhoff on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:02AM (#28651112)
You have it wrong. It was carrying a coconut.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by interestica on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:36PM (#28649315)
> seems pointless

I'm more wondering about the effects of seed/life transfer. Doesn't seem feasible to me.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by jcims on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:41PM (#28650005)
That’s a walk in the park

https://www.birdlife.org/worldwide/news/migration-marathons-...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_tern#Distribution_and...

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hadlock on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:28PM (#28649933)
Every year or two, people decide to fly from North America to Europe in a short range Cessna. They get the extra fuel tankage package, then hop from PEI to Greenland, Greenland to Iceland, then Iceland to.... Svalbard, or maybe somewhere in the Scotish Isles. From there it's pretty standard flight operations over local bodies of water. If a Cessna can do it, that's well within a bird's migratory travel distance.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by EamonnMR on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:54PM (#28650056)
Yeah but you think they'd save fuel and locally source the twigs
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by scythe on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:52AM (#28650840)
Possibly not if the goal is to impress a potential mate.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by heavenlyblue on Saturday September 25, 2021 @07:58AM (#28652422)
Have you just invented this or is that actually some well-known fact that birds impress potential mates this way?
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by washadjeffmad on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:48AM (#28652740)
The joke is that the Cessna fliers are doing it to collect the twigs.

If you edit out 'birds', it'd be pure comedy.

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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by repiret on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:43AM (#28650619)
I was under the impression that was still the standard way to move GA aircraft across the Atlantic, and happened regularly.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by aasasd on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:49AM (#28651341)
A bit different, but IIRC some seeds spread by passing through birds' digestive tract—which sidesteps the bird's decisions on the luggage. However, I'd guess the distance travelled is much shorter in this case.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by riffraff on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:30AM (#28650982)
Barnacle goose do migrate from Greenland to the British isles, but I do not know if Greenland is considered north America.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by eCa on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:58AM (#28651097)
Yes, Greenland is geographically in North America.
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Re:A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas by hkt on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:42AM (#28651306)
They could have been coming from Ireland too..
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