You started a hellish flamewar with this comment. Obviously the topics are serious but internet flamewars about these things are profoundly unserious and not what this site is for. Please take more care in the future, and please use HN in the intended spirit of thoughtful, curious conversation.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28644625.

> You started a hellish flamewar with this comment.

Well, it's clear after the fact, but that was not intentional. You have way more experience monitoring and tracking these threads and therefore predicting what will probably happen than any of the rest of us. I do think it's hypocritical for a government to impose sanctions for doing something (forced prisoner labor) that that government also does with its own prisoners. It would be nice if we could have an honest discussion about our carceral state without people repeatedly leaning into the idea that "convicted of crime"="deserves what they get, but only here and not there". But I understand that there are clearly now many greyed comments under here, so I don't fault you for separating the thread. And I can't predict that it won't happen again, but I'm sorry about bringing what this thread became to your doorstep.

Is there a single large economy that doesn't prohibit forced prison labor? I can't find one.

Care to name which ones do? China, US, probably Russia? Who else?

US, Germany, Russia, Brazil, China, India, etc.

The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities to work is probably a big net positive. I'm sure plenty of them would work for pennies rather than rot in a cell.

The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself. But that requires far more investigation to establish than pearl-clutching about the universal practice of "forced labor".

But if there is a legit criminal behind bars, I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.

> The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities to work is probably a big net positive.

The fact that you used the word "opportunities" to described "forced" really demonstrates the problem with the line of reasoning used to justify forced labor.

Forced labor is wrong. Always. Period.

> I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.

Sure, if someone is in prison they should be able to work. They should have the choice to work. As soon as the labor is forced, then it is unacceptable, immoral, and anyone defending it is wrong.

> than pearl-clutching about the universal practice of "forced labor".

So it's because everyone does it that it's "ok", then?

Or because you think it's better than "rotting in a cell"?

Whatever man. The issue is that the labour is _forced_. Give prisoners a choice to work or not and pay them, at market value, for their work.

If you're against choice and pay for prisoners you really shouldn't be embarrassed to just go ahead and call it what it is: slavery.

The allegation that Xinjiang has prisons and are allowing prisoners to work is almost certainly true. Like virtually every other major economy.

The allegation that the Xinjiang prisoners are actually innocent people being ethnically/religiously cleansed and forced into slavery has extremely little basis in reality, relying completely on claims from a tiny, unaccountable clique of Washington DC based ideologues (Zenz, et al) and ETIM lobbyists (WUC, et al).

However, the article deceptively uses the banal truth of the first allegation as a vehicle to imply that truth of the second, far more extreme allegation. These are classic disinformation methods employed to achieve political agendas.

Entire university department professors have been wiped out and sent to prison https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf

They should be paid market rate for their labor. Why should prison take away your basic financial rights.

Edit: it's disgusting to me that anyone downvoted this. what do you believe, if not that people have a right to the fruits of their labor, even as criminals? believing otherwise is believing in slavery and exploitation.

It shouldn't also take away from the rights of others. When prison labor is obtained below minimum wage, or under conditions or terms that workers would not accept, you hurt low income workers and drive down their wages in aggregate.

In my opinion, prison labor should only be used for public works. Cleaning up parks and that sort of thing. Giving a captive labor stream to private enterprise is only good for the owners of the select few firms who can take advantage of it.

I agree with the sentiment but it should be pointed out that even public works have to pay their workers at market rates when there are no forced laborers (so: most of the time). Throwing a bunch of forced laborers at public works kind of screws over the average Joe that used to do that for pay.

So, like you say, it shouldn't take away from the rights of others. Just pay the prisoners just like you'd pay any other worker regardless of the kind of job.

> The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself.

lol what? they're in a cage guarded by men with guns. what about that could possibly be anything other than "coercive?"

"Coercitive" would be something like "you make N license plate a day or don't get food".

"If you accept to do non-mandatory work in exchange of money/reduced sentence" it will be your choice.

another way to rephrase that is "if you choose not to work, you will stay in prison for longer." sounds pretty coercive to me!

Not longer that your original sentence though.

Yeah, prisons generally have armed guards.

I think they should be able to work if they want.

I just don't want private entities profiting off prisoners our taxes house.

I agree completely. Any prison labor programs should be entirely in the public sector.

A d pay the federal minimum wage

So your equating prison in the US to the camps in Xinjiang?

Or equating forced prison labor to forced prison labor.

So you're saying that being a Uighur is an equivalent crime to committing robbery or assault?

Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even if the root of those crimes might be complex socio-economic factors like discrimination and income inequality.

In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family members. It's really a false equivalency.

> Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes.

Even when policing in the US is so completely racially motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while black is a reality of the US carceral system.

The last year has really shown the world that US policing and incarceration is completely broken and highly resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of whom?)

I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at the border detention centers.

the 13th amendment states that the only acceptable form of slavery is prison labor.

pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty dark conclusion...

The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.

Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.

... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men?

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html

the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.

Sinophobia*

93% are men, 7% women.

Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men.

edit: High five to sibling comment.

your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive.

weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.

I think the point is that the narrative that one choose to tell is based on which statistics one chooses to look at.

I think looking at each statistics has value when viewed together, and I would add a third one to the mix. Race is somewhat a predictor for being incarcerated. Gender slightly stronger. Wealth is slightly stronger than that with a 20x time higher rate for the bottom 10% compared to the top 10%.

For countries with high rate of refugees from specific regions on the planet, religion also becomes a predictor for incarceration.

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.

My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony.

What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not?

Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.

You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"

I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture

Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.

I think this Chinese government website might not have been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/co...

A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling illegal religious and/or pirated publications.

Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture" depends on how much emphasis you put on the "solely". If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion likely played a role.

This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material.

The crime of illegally distributing documents would be brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney films.

> This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide.

You didn't ask about genocide in the comment I replied to.

> The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material.

The police seized 125250 copies. I doubt jihad is nearly that popular. (His city of Hetian only has 400,000 inhabitants.) But importing any kind of religious publication beyond a small amount for personal use requires express permission http://www.gov.cn/ziliao/flfg/2007-04/20/content_589295.htm paragraph 10. Most likely it was just an edition of the Qur'an that hadn't been officially approved by the Islamic Association of China.

It's very possible though that the guy was selling "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's no chance in hell he could have legalized that business whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because they can't control it like they control the churches due to its decentralized nature).

The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China Among other things, it has produced an official translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be very profitable.)

Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide.

https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf

This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database:

> "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible."

Sounds incredibly reliable to me.

[1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769

Here is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur

Wow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI".

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...

Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...

An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?

Not just cotton. Fighting fires. Making License plates. Doing laundry.

The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get reduced sentences.

In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps ... not because of what they have done, but because of who they are and what they believe.

Uyghurs and other non-Han minority people in China are subjected to forced labor, forced abortions and idealogical re-education.

Via the AP:

An estimated 1 million people or more — most of them Uyghurs — have been confined in re-education camps in Xinjiang in recent years, according to researchers. Chinese authorities have been accused of imposing forced labor, systematic forced birth control and torture, and separating children from incarcerated parents.

https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-middle-east-europe-gov...

The Guardian:

It estimated 570,000 people came through three minority-heavy prefectures alone – Aksu, Hotan, and Kashgar – and that labor programs in other ethnic minority regions as well as prison labor would probably add hundreds of thousands to the figure.

The labour programs are not secret; they are frequently written about in state media as glowing examples of the government assisting millions of poor people into work, but those articles also contain clues to their coercive nature. Transferred workers are often sent far from their home, made to live on site in factories and subjected to ideological training.

Publications on the labour schemes frequently include references to policies discouraging “illegal religious activities” and changing thoughts and behaviour.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/xinjiang-china...

As another commenter also observed, "volunteer" is a very poor description of the situation. What exactly are the options here for the prisoner involved?

And I think this is worth distinguishing: a slave is always prisoner of their enslaver. The reverse need not be the case, and yet our system turns prisoners into slaves through forced labor. There's no volunteerism involved here. It's about those with power, those without. Slavery can be understood best by how the powerful behave, not the powerless. No one would volunteer for this or prisoners wouldn't have to be forced to do it.

I'm always disappointed that the lessons of slavery still aren't understood in this country. It's painful and shameful.

EDIT: clarity of terms

Both media sources rely on speculation from one individual, so why not just link that shared source?

You've made about 20 comments in this thread, mostly demanding sources and then dismissing those sources with vague ad-hominem and making zero attempt to engage with the substance of any claims.

Since you seem to be very well educated on this topic, can you share your sources? I'm eager to read them.

My understanding of the "Xinjiang issue" is that Xinjiang has a complex history of separatism & violent terrorism (see Urumqi attacks). Beijing implemented a counterterrorism program in the last decade or two, alongside other initiatives such as comprehensive anti-poverty campaigns. Broadly these programs have the same goal of stabilizing the region, its economy, its politics, its people, and overall they have been successful.

Recognizing China as a competitor on an unchecked rise, Washington "pivoted" its foreign policy on China towards antagonism at the beginning of the Obama admin. [1]

This resulted in a number of related attempts to internally destabilize China and loosen the dominance of the Communist Party, ideally leading to a Chinese regime that is submissive to Washington's demands (as occurred recently in India, Ukraine, Brazil and many other historical cases). Otherwise, China could very well surpass the USA as the most powerful nation on Earth.

Among those attempts is a fierce propaganda initiative, which takes any controversial issue related to China and warps it beyond recognition, with the goal of demonizing the Communist Party. Xinjiang, Hong Kong, COVID-19, Taiwan are among the extremely propagandized topics in circulation.

It is virtually impossible to get a fact-based perspective on these issues from mainstream Western media, because that is not their goal. If a mainstream Western outlet attempts to portray China in a neutral/positive, fact-based light, then they risk repercussions. For example, the illuminating PBS documentary entitled "China's War on Poverty" was removed from the airwaves in USA [2] citing "funding" concerns. Any attempt to deviate from official media policy on China could be labeled a "national security risk" and compromise major media corporation's access to funding and other opportunities. Simply not worth the risk (see Parenti's or Chomsky's "propaganda model").

Meanwhile, extremely dubious "reporting" that furthers this foreign policy agenda is amplified to incredible extents. This is how virtually all "China bad" stories end up tracing their origins from a relatively tiny inbred clique of Washington D.C.-based ideologues/think tanks/"human rights" groups, ETIM separatists, Falun Gong cultists, and weapons manufacturers who stand to profit enormously from the "China Threat" theory. Everyone else is directly or indirectly shut out.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_t...

[2] - https://current.org/2020/05/after-pbs-drops-film-pbs-socal-r...

One source? There are multiple sources, including eyewitness accounts, reports from Chinese and Uyghur exiles, western experts, and even satellite imagery:

"The findings of this research contradict Chinese officials' claims that all 'trainees' from so-called vocational training [centers] had 'graduated' by late 2019," report author Nathan Ruser wrote. "Instead, available evidence suggests that many extrajudicial detainees in Xinjiang's vast 're-education' network are now being formally charged and locked up in higher security facilities, including newly built or expanded prisons, or sent to walled factory compounds for coerced [labor] assignments."

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916665128/report-satellite-im...

Okay, so far you've linked Adrian Zenz and Raytheon-mouthpiece ASPI.

Is it really so much to ask for a source that doesn't have an obvious and massive Conflict of Interest in destabilizing China?

> have an obvious and massive Conflict of Interest in destabilizing China?

If only you would apply what you demand of others to your own brazen statements.

Rigorous, fact-based scrutiny is "brazen"? Ridiculous. Is this Reddit, or HN?

Please stay on topic: where are your primary sources that don't have a massive Conflict of Interest? It's okay to admit you don't have any.

He'll post the source of both claims when it's time for the Rapture.

> The difference is U.S. prisoners are members of specific minority groups

FTFY.

> Many volunteer for these jobs

True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day.

In any case, using slave labor for profit is morally abhorrent. It creates very negative societal incentives, and it allows keeping the overall labor rate lower. I'd happily fight fires in CA or elsewhere, if the price is right.

>True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day.

Source? A family member was charged with a felony for drugs and went to prison, and he was certainly not locked in his cell 23 hours daily.

Not all prisons are the same. The labor camps operate like this, your family member was either not in one of these prisons, or he took the job.

That's unfortunate. However, folks in the US prison system have been convicted of crimes.

Ignoring the fact that we've had prisoners, in places like e.g. Guantanamo, on and off who were/are held for decades without ever even being charged with anything, China has also charged its prisoners with crimes.

You don't agree with China's decision to make practicing religion a crime, I don't agree with the US's decision to make possessing drugs a crime. Both are "crimes" punishable by incarceration according to the two governments.

Presumably China has also convicted it's forced labor of some crimes as well.

Regardless of what the laws are, I believe that prison labor is a bad practice with big ethical issues—it incentives incarceration as a means to procure cheap/free labor that can be used to turn a profit for those in power.

EDIT: To clarify: I don't think giving prisoners an option to work is a bad thing, but nobody should be allowed to profit off of such labor other than the prisoner themselves. Anything else tends to lead towards undesirable incentives and outcomes.

Criminals are still humans and we should be using every effort to rehabilitate them and make them valuable members of society and contributors to the economy in a far more significant way

The Gulags were also full of people who have committed crimes. Some of those crimes were even non-political!

I can't say that's the argument that I'd use to defend slavery, though...

So slavery is legal as long as the slave is a criminal? I'm not following what's being implied.