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Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:09AM (#28153014)

  > "Master Password" renamed to "Primary Password"
How does the term "Primary Password" describe the password which enables access to the list of credentials better than "Master Password"? Are they just entertained by the alliteration?
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by BoxOfRain on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:24AM (#28154428)
This kind of corporate "we need to be seen to be doing something rather than nothing" stuff does wind me up, it just makes people more annoyed (by breaking scripts and causing unnecessary UI changes etc) and less receptive to actual arguments for social change while at the same time producing no practical increase in social justice. It's just inauthentic tokenism designed to keep the baying beast that is Twitter away.

"Show, don't tell" is as good advice for PR as it is for storytelling in my opinion. I don't want you to tell me how great you are at tackling the issues of the day with token changes like this, I want you to show me by actually doing things that demonstrate you believe in the stuff that's coming out of your mouth rather than just trying to appear like a "good person". Changing "master" to "main" or "primary" is as authentic as Facebook or Google saying they care about privacy.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by notafraudster on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:41AM (#28154545)
Alternative perspective on exactly the same data:

This kind of developer-driven change does not wind me up, because developers working on products should be able to reflect on how those products are part of society and if they choose to make changes in their branding, presentation, or diction, they should be able to do so. Mozilla has a pretty rich tradition of employee activism, as we all observed after the Eich debacle, and I suspect employees want their work to make them feel good in terms of alignment with their bedrock principles. This is true even if individual customers oppose their politics, especially since the vast majority of users will never notice this or read a changelog. Symbolic gestures are part of a program of practically increasing social justice. They do not replace more concrete measures, they are additive in addition to them: Mozilla and Thunderbird should still pursue employment equity, charitable works, and other mission-related goals while doing this.

Although minor, the expression is authentic, and it is normal for symbolic gestures to precede other measures because it's normal to tackle problems through a combination of taking the most important actions and the easiest (even if minor) actions, the same way turning up the freezer a few degrees might not be the most important thing you can do to reduce your footprint but it is something you can do before you finish reading this post.

"Tell" is good advice for changelogs, because the literal purpose of a changelog is to tell the changes that were made. If I'm dumb enough to waste my time reading a changelog (and I obviously am), I do want you to tell me what you actually changed, even if the change is a minor change to diction or a typo fix. Collapsing changelog entries into "changed some in-program text" obfuscates the actual change and does little to demonstrate the actual changes made.

Being very worried about a change from "master" to "main" is as authentic as opponents of social justice quoting MLK to project an image of caring about social justice.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ekianjo on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:08AM (#28154761)
> I suspect employees want their work to make them feel good in terms of alignment with their bedrock principles.

if it makes you feel good to play with words I am not sure if thats a good energy expenditure for your activism. it feels like a cheap way to value signal instead of doing something actually meaningful.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by notafraudster on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:25AM (#28155347)
Why "instead"? Why not "in addition to"? Is it logical to think that this change thwarted activism either by employees in their private capacity or Mozilla as an organization, except in the extremely vacuous way that all things are a substitute for all other things because there are only 86,400 seconds in a day and so by definition picking your nose means you're not doing something more productive?

Like, I suspect some of the employees involved in this change also volunteer with organizations, they also donate money to organizations, they also make other changes in their personal life, right? Maybe not all of them. Maybe some of them wake up and think "Social justice is really important to me so I'm going to do an empty virtue signal and then nothing else, wow I'm great". Even if that were true it's not super obvious what the concern is here -- okay, so maybe someone involved in this change could be a better person and could be using their energy more effectively? And? Surely there's a better use of my energy and yours than replying to a patchnotes post on hacker news to get mad about a one word change in a changelog of an email client, and yet here we are.

About half of my post was talking about how symbolic things, while not a substitute for concrete things, are part of making changes, and how often times tackling problems with a combination of the most urgent issues and the easiest to fix issues is normal, so it's weird that the reply would be "Symbolic things just substitute for concrete things and this issue is easy, not urgent". Like, yes, I've already considered your perspective here, that's why I replied to begin with?

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by getlawgdon on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:23AM (#28154866)
Words have meaning and power. How they are used literally changes the discourse. Your participation in this discussion is proof that the example under consideration has impact well beyond "playing with words."
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by BoxOfRain on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:44AM (#28156946)
I think lots of people are uncomfortable with language being changed in a top-down way by people who aren't particularly democratically accountable more than anything.

To be honest I'm not sure where I stand on prescriptivism as a concept. If there's a genuine organic demand (as opposed to corporate PR people playing tokenism) for it in the context of tackling racism then fair enough I can get behind that, but I don't really like the idea of language itself being used as a political cudgel to beat your opponents with. The word Orwellian is relentlessly misused these days but I think if we are going to forcefully change language it needs to be something done with great consideration and democratic oversight to avoid this tool being wielded abusively. For example, I'd love to abolish all Americanisms from British English which is exactly why I'd be grossly unfit for such a language-defining duty!

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ekianjo on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:31AM (#28154929)
yes words have meaning and the present change is wrong because it fails to understand the actual meaning of master.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by paulryanrogers on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:37AM (#28156154)
Different people can interpret words differently. Replacing 'master' is a very low cost change which, IMO, can improve understanding of what is described. (Like main or root branch or vault password.)

So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird?

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:58AM (#28156431)
But the word "master" means a lot in tech. This is like someone changing the word "save" to "store", after many years of use in tech, and everyone knowing the implied meaning, but some minority of users are complaining that "jesus saves, data is stored".
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:53AM (#28157843)

  > So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage
  > when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird?
What cultural baggage does the word "master" have? And before you throw around the word "slavery" my grandfather, who passed only 14 years ago, was a slave. I have no qualms with the word "master".
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by wayneftw on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:49AM (#28156309)
> ...why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage...

Clinging? We're all just talking here and we don't have any authority over this software. Are we allowed to have differing opinions about what already took place? I think so.

Personally, my opinion is that I laugh at these people for their empty virtue signaling that really doesn't help understanding here in this case. We don't have to be clinging in order to discuss how idiotic we think things are.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by chiefalchemist on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:14AM (#28155245)
Yes. They do. But meaning and power sits on a foundation of context and intent. Even emojis rely on this.

The idea that we're going to use words but ignore context and intent is self-defeating. It weakens the powers of human communication. It's as if to say: "Words speak louder than action."

That's sounds like a quote for 1984.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by skeeter2020 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:05AM (#28156520)
>> your participation in this discussion...

Which is also just a lot of empty words that make you feel good about the fundamental change you're helping sweep over the world.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jollybean on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:50AM (#28155054)
"Words have meaning and power"

Except when they don't.

That's the point.

This change is completely meaningless in practical terms, which means the only value derived is in the heads of those wanting to see the change.

This is why we view it cynically.

Someone commenting cynically on the action does not 'prove' that those words have some kind of influence.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by blueflow on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:36AM (#28154966)
> Words have meaning and power.

.. for you. I hope nobody ever insults you.

> How they are used literally changes the discourse.

No. People come up with ideas and thoughts, and wanting to express themselves, they seek out looking for words. Peoples ideas and thoughts make up how words are meant.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Geezus_42 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:08AM (#28154768)
My company made the change from blacklist/whitelist to blocklist/allow list over two years ago and people, mostly external, still get annoyed and I just can't understand why. The former is literally one letter different and the latter makes just as much, arguably more, sense than the term it replaced. I get that some people see it as just posturing but you have to start somewhere if you are going to change the culture. Not using colors which are also used to describe people's skin to different between a negative thing and a positive thing is good imo.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by endofreach on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:41AM (#28154996)
I mean honestly, this is typical US stuff. As a european I have never associated blacklist, whitelist or master with any discrimination.

Why instead of changing tech wording affecting every dev worldwide who does not care about american pseudo social justice, just do not call dark er skin „black“ and brighter skin „white“?

I mean still more people are afraid in the absence of light, hence the dark, than otherwise. And „white“ is often associated with clean, pure. There are psychological effects we can‘t just ignore.

Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“.

I mean I still have to see a „white“ person and a „black“ person in real life.

For god‘s sake. Stop finding problems where there are none. Corporate trolling has reached the next level.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by gnu8 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:27AM (#28155363)
I’m glad you don’t have these problems in your European utopia. We still have a lot to work on here - there are race riots every year. Part of our legacy as a very young country that was built with the labor of imported black slaves.

Other connotations of the word blacklist include the blacklisting of labor activists and of accused communists during our multiple bouts of anti communist hysteria. The word is charged with ugly meanings and there’s no reason to throw it around casually in a software project.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by allendoerfer on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:13AM (#28156612)
Last time I checked, your race riots were not caused by software, but by gun violence of untrained police officers. I think it is quite clear, what needs to be banned in the US.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:06AM (#28156529)
Many countries were built with the labour of slaves. I'm a slav, from a slavic country, and the words "slav" and "slave" are not just coincintally similar. We were also a communist country, and the definition of 3rd world (and technically leaders of the 3rd world/nonaligned at the time).

Somehow we have no issues with master/slave. Most people (except failed students and former party members) know communism was a really really shitty system. And most of the current racial issues are imported from america, during the democrats-vs-trump "battles", and are so americanized, that people forget minorities here (gypsies,...), and use BLM for maybe 10 black people that live here.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by nekasrbenda on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:30AM (#28156796)
I'd argue that we still carry scars from the Ottoman rule, even though it ended 2 centuries ago.

There are living people in USA who were around for the segregation.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:55AM (#28157876)
My grandfather, who passed only 14 years ago, was a slave. I have not qualms with the word "master".

Are there any documented cases of the word "master" offending anybody?

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by kenniskrag on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:51AM (#28155061)
> Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“.

It is not only about colour but about racial identity.

This article describe this case:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-ja...

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jollybean on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:55AM (#28155091)
By this logic probably 1/3 of literature is going to have to be banned or edited.

Using 'light' for 'good' which mostly derives from daylight, the sun, daytime etc. and darkness for 'bad' etc. might be the most ancient human metaphor, probably dating back to the time we could tell stories. Our first religion, in Egypt, the Sun was God and the God of the 'Dark Underworld' was the bad guy.

Moreover, it doesn't really have connotation with respect to skin colour.

The important, 'hard' part to social activism is context and nuance and also to understand that not all actions which may have some threadbare logic make sense or actually help.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by flippinburgers on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:41AM (#28156905)
Don't be surprised when text editing AI becomes savvy enough to do this sort of thing and then that is advocated for.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Delk on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:21AM (#28155946)
I have no trouble believing that the sentiment behind those changes is genuine.

However, I'm also somewhat annoyed by these kinds of changes, mostly because I would never have associated the "black" in blacklist with the skin colour until someone started pointing it out as an issue. While some terminology might be actually problematic, from my point of view there was never any problem with the word blacklist until someone started pointing it out. Now there is.

Once you make enough noise about an association like that, the association will certainly be there for more and more people even if it weren't there before. The problem kind of creates itself.

I'm fairly sure many Americans are understandably rather sensitive and sore about skin colour and racial justice right now. I'm not from the US, so depending on where you're from, this might make a difference in perspectives.

I'm also white and of the ethnic majority in my country, so I certainly don't see all the issues that minorities, immigrants or other ethnic groups might face. If it turned out that the word "blacklist" (to give an example) had been seen as an actual issue all along by a significant proportion of black people in my cultural environment or in most of the world, I wouldn't oppose the change. But if it hadn't been previously associated negatively that way, then creating that association and making a fuss about it has actually created a problem (or at least made one much bigger), not solved one.

While changing a term might not be that big of a thing practically, having to react to something you think shouldn't be an issue in the first place can be annoying out of principle. A social dynamic where you need to go along just because someone else sees a potential problem can also be annoying. My guess would be that the majority of people who are annoyed by these kind of changes are annoyed because of something along those lines.

Once you push something that sparks that kind of a reaction in people hard enough, you get people annoyed, and if you then push more, you get them more annoyed.

As for changing the culture, I'd rather like to see people getting much less neurotic about ethnicity and race rather than more so. I facepalmed hard when I read that, according to some people, the "ok" sign had become problematic because some far-right people had started using it, and that it should be avoided. I think that was an absurd stance; if you stop using an otherwise innocuous sign because someone else started using it for a bad purpose, you end up emphasize that new, bad association. (In that case you'd also kind of let the far-right people win, which makes it even more absurd, but that's not directly relevant here.)

The world is full of associations you can make, including ones with colour that matches someone's skin or religious symbol or any number of things. I've noticed that people are more prone to seeing connections, both in terms of reacting to actual ones as well as making less significant or spurious ones, when they feel more sensitive about related issues. It's no wonder if many (especially) Americans are currently trying to spot even the slightest racial issues and want to change the culture to get rid of them.

I'm just not sure I agree with that approach, or with the idea that it's "justice" or the only way to go. Rather than seeing a cultural change where we're so sensitive to racial issues that we try to see every potential negative connotation imaginable and get rid of them, I'm much prefer to see change towards a world where people don't feel the need to see all of those.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by flippinburgers on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:40AM (#28156893)
I cannot see it as anything other than social conditioning to take something that was previously not an issue and make it into one that now must be "solved". I think that hyper-focus on "racism" only divides people from one another.

I really don't understand the endgame but I feel like a small group of people who would make wonderful evangelicals have grown up into the secular role of "solvers" of "racial issues".

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by fluidcruft on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:40AM (#28155489)
It could also have been that an end user filed a bug report or feature request and made a convincing case. Then someone just reads over the commit logs to write the version announcement. It does just seem to be an outgrowth of the whole "master" branch thing in git and low-hanging fruit for a contributor to tackle. Overall who cares, really. "Primary password" is better than "Main password" IMHO.

I'm also not sure "Master password", "Primary password" or "Main password" are particularly intuitive. Probably better to name the resource like "Thunderbird account database password". Or just prompt to "Unlock password database".

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by handrous on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:32AM (#28156813)
"Master password"'s advantage is the connection to the term, from the normal, non-computer world, "master key".
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by fluidcruft on Thursday August 12, 2021 @02:01PM (#28159426)
Sure, but I'm willing to bet that next to nobody who doesn't work with encryption makes that analogy. You also don't typically use a "master key" to unlock a locked box of keys so it's not really a great analogy anyway.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by handrous on Thursday August 12, 2021 @02:13PM (#28159569)
Yeah, I'm aware it's not a perfect analogy, but it's still the best you're going to get for communicating the idea succinctly (just with the name, even) to a lay-person. Alternatives like "vault password" or "locker password" (or something along those lines), provided it's made very clear to the user, repeatedly and persistently, that their passwords are in something you're calling a vault or a locker, can be about as good. "Primary", or anything similar, is worse.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by wolverine876 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:06PM (#28158812)
> This kind of corporate "we need to be seen to be doing something rather than nothing" stuff does wind me up

Do you see the long list of substantive work done, in this underfunded open source project?

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mkotowski on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:45AM (#28154145)
I sometimes wonder how much there could be done for people in need of an actual form of help if all that energy to change unrelated words because someone is triggered by them went into a more useful endeavor.

And beyond that, maybe it is because I am not a native speaker, but isn’t “primary” less clear than “master” in this context? `Master` suggest control/mastery over something, but `primary` rather focuses on importance/order of things, at least in my head.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jpxw on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:52AM (#28154204)
Native speaker here: yes, “primary” does not mean the same as “master”, and in this case I would argue that the distinction is relevant.

I agree with your assessment. “primary” — to me — implies one of many equally-important passwords. “master” implies a password that protects/overrides/controls all other passwords, which is what Thunderbird’s master password actually is.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by xupybd on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:11AM (#28154339)
It is amusing we glorify words like Pirate and Ninja. Yet other words become vilified so we ban them.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mkotowski on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:16AM (#28154362)
Which in this case is doubly ironic, because pirates and buccaneers were exactly the group that had kept the slave trade alive even after it was officially banned in many places, if my limited knowledge on the Atlantic slave trade is correct.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by tenpies on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:19AM (#28155288)
The hilarity of it all is ego of the Western social justice movement.

By most estimates there are more slaves today than in any other point in history and it's almost entire in Eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa. Instead of helping those people, putting sanctions on the countries and companies turning a blind eye on slavery, or even acknowledging that slavery is not history but an ongoing condition - the West spins its wheels changing language in highly unrelated fields.

The absurdity of it all is something out of Camus.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by bostonsre on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:25AM (#28154438)
I recall instances where they fought slavery by capturing slave trading ships, freeing the enslaved, and given them freedom and the opportunity to join them and fight the assholes that captured them in the first place. The history of Nassau is pretty interesting.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Geezus_42 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:02AM (#28154713)
They were individualist. Some fought slavery, some helped it. No one can make a blanket statement either way.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by throw0101a on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:44AM (#28155524)
> Hostis humani generis (Latin for "enemy of mankind") is a legal term of art that originates in admiralty law. Before the adoption of public international law,[when?] pirates and slavers were already held to be beyond legal protection and so could be dealt with by any nation, even one that had not been directly attacked.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostis_humani_generis

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by throw0101a on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:42AM (#28155503)
> It is amusing we glorify words like Pirate

Pirates were referred to as the "enemy of all mankind":

* https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/545158/enemy-of-all...

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52783845-enemy-of-all-ma...

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by IshKebab on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:20AM (#28154393)
You are right about "primary" being less clear. In fact I'd say it is wrong.

Primary means it is the "main" one, but it doesn't imply any controlling relationship. It's kind of like "first".

Whereas "master" (in this context) means it has control or power over other things. For example a "master switch" would override all other switches. Or a "master cylinder" on a car controls the slave cylinder.

It's a real shame that they're making things less clear to fix an imagined problem.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Consultant32452 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:58AM (#28155115)
The point is not about actually helping anyone, it's in-group out-group signaling. Once you understand the real purpose you will understand it's effective.

As long as you are taking it at face value you will continue to be confused in this way, and you will continue to lose.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by unlikelymordant on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:15AM (#28153046)
I wonder if this is moving away from master/slave terminology similar to e.g. https://www.vice.com/en/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminolo...
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mkotowski on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:05AM (#28154297)
It would be quite ironic if, after all those changes, the words “primary” and “secondary” would simply become the synonyms of “master” and “slave”.

And it wouldn’t be even that improbable, in my opinion at least. In the end, in many languages the word “figuratively” was so overused as a stand in for “literally”, that it became it informal synonym (I know for sure that it is a thing in both English and Polish, but it is probably more widespread). If words of completely opposite meaning can be blurred that way, it wouldn’t be so strange for that effect to emerge as a case of euphemism.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by llimos on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:51AM (#28157826)
> It would be quite ironic if, after all those changes, the words “primary” and “secondary” would simply become the synonyms of “master” and “slave”.

As in, to describe actual human slavery?

Most English-speaking countries don't have actual human slavery any more (or at least, they don't use the words master and slave to describe it.) So when using the words master and slave to refer to actual slavery, it's usually in a historical sense, and it seems unlikely that we'd change the words we use to refer to something in the past.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mkotowski on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:00PM (#28158743)
> As in, to describe actual human slavery?

Sorry, but I do not understand the question. Do you mean as to distinguish slavery relationship in logical systems (as with databases) versus human relations? If so, that wasn’t my intention.

What I was talking about was more about a euphemism replacing an actual word, as with taboo avoidance:

> This terminology for the animal originated as a taboo avoidance term: proto-Germanic tribes replaced their original word for bear — arkto — with this euphemistic expression out of fear that speaking the animal's true name might cause it to appear. According to author Ralph Keyes, this is the oldest known euphemism. [0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear#Etymology

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by llimos on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:30PM (#28159068)
That's very different. There, the thing being referred to is the thing they didn't want to refer to.

Here, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the _thing_ being referred to (a password, in this case.) The issue is that the commonly used word _also_ has some other associations. So picking a different word means you lose those associations. Not the same thing at all.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by g105b on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:19AM (#28153079)
I've literally never heard of a slave password.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by seqizz on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:47AM (#28153743)
"master" is a "blocklisted" word now. I also think it's silly to change the word on places which doesn't have "slave"s (e.g. github master branch > main branch switch), but well..
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by el_oni on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:26AM (#28154004)
I read a gitlab blog[0] where they mention that "master" comes from bitkeeper where there was a master repository and slave repositories.

It does make one wonder, if there was more diversity in CS when these things were being made whether "master-slave" analogies would have made it in or whether other analogies like "parent-child", "major-minor", "leader-follower" or similar would have made it in.

[0] https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2021/03/10/new-git-default-bra...

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by orangepanda on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:33AM (#28154059)
"Out of memory: Sacrificing child" does sound vaguely better than "Out of memory: Sacrificing slave"
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by bonzini on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:18AM (#28154827)
It's actually a coincidence: see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2020-June...

In the end it doesn't really matter once the word has gotten tainted. It's still ugly that incorrect deductions spread so quickly and corrections don't.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by bakul on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:23AM (#28155958)
The master-slave terminology is used outside of CS as well. For example in EE we have master-slave edge-triggered D or JK flip-flops. I don’t feel strongly either way about such word use but I am fine with renaming them too. The fact that such change is so triggering to some people is strange!
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by agumonkey on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:39AM (#28154530)
Got me curious about whitelist and the opposite.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by daniel_iversen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:41AM (#28153259)
that's more of a database (and other) term.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by kettleballroll on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:12AM (#28153027)
Master/Slave nomenclature is considered "problematic language" (because it harks back to slavery), and thus often replaced with more PC language these days. My organization had a whole "fix this nomenclature throughout the whole codebase" week (things like "black-/whitelist, master/slave, ....)
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:11AM (#28153904)
'Master' is not counterpart to 'slave', it is counterpart to 'inferior'. 'Master' is "greater" (ex 'magis'), vs "lesser". The most resounding example is fitting: «Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas».

It is an ___extreme___ problem if somebody now thought [I change the tense out of refusal] that the term 'master' should not be used, especially if the perverse excuse were that someone used it in a way that makes somebody uncomfortable.

Following an old proverb, reportedly from or nobilitated by Cervantes, you are invited "not to mention the rope in the house of the hanged". But never in history, to the best of my knowledge, someone ever advanced the idea that given that people had been hanged, the term 'rope' should stop being used at all.

The term 'master' is innocent. And it has close to fullest right to be part of the language.

And there is a further matter of care given these desperate times in history: suspicion that a war against the semantic of "master" could be involved, given the many raising voices making all individuals equivalent in intellect, preparation and judgement, in the area of Asimov's warning:

«The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"»

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by brnt on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:49AM (#28154173)
You are right, and I agree.

However, languages live and the people of the USA are an important determinant of where the English language is headed. They have a particular history involving this word, and that history has not been fully reckoned with. It makes sense that the same word, although in other contexts with a slightly different meaning, would be redefined or removed this way, in order to deal with that history.

Natural languages violate the sort of origins and logical meanings all the time, so this does not have to be an exception.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:42AM (#28155501)
I am not sure if I will be able to convey the point as well as I wish, but:

don't you think this way the enemy wins a battle?

Terrorists attempt bending politics through terrorizing: if one is terrorized, is that one not playing their game?

We greet in some sensible way, say, and somebody comes and promotes the greeting as now meaning "short people should stick to accounting": that somebody should not be nobilitated and their """cultural proposal""" accepted as norm: it should be discarded as noise. If the greeting were affected and linked to some unworthy agenda, that would mean empowering said agenda: it should have been impotent, but with your attention, and attributing it legitimacy in the creation of constraints, you made it powerful.

«Languages live», but uprooted they go astray. A rubberband, like that vetting attitude you (yes really you) have been trained to develop, should always there to check validity, vis-a-vis what terms mean, coremost to how they are used. One is supposed not to forget that core.

"Congratulations for having defaced our public square by defecating in the middle: you now get the privilege to do similarly with our sacred vocabulary".

So should not we speak language, as an attempt, instead of «USA [determined] English language» or «natural language»?

And more to the point, should not we avoid acting as resonance chambers amplifying deeds? Some culturally inferior party is not supposed to bend culture with the "strength of inferiority" - that is absurd. It is not a "de facto" bending, it is the "de facto" response to it that gives it power.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by brnt on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:09AM (#28157280)
> «Languages live», but uprooted they go astray.

That is nonsensical. There is no such thing as a line language should not stray too far from. Languages are what they are, plain and simple. The fact that you speak English, is already a horrible affront to the French, the Celts, Angles, Saxons, both in their current day form and that of yesteryear, and any precursors to those languages in turn. English shouldn't even have the Latin-derived 'master' in the first place, if we're going that way.

I am absolutely sensitive to the argument that 'master' originally, or in some other context, is not opposed by 'slave', but 'inferior' or somesuch. And it is how I've used the word, and how it and its native equivalent is used in my native tongue. But that is no argument for fixing a particular meaning or context as more important or 'native' than any other.

Language is fundamentally, deeply promiscuous, and English may be the most promiscuous of them all. If this is a problem for you, your best bet is a dead language, or one you create yourself. You can fork anything you wish after all, that's how languages work :)

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:42PM (#28158486)
> that is no argument for fixing a particular meaning or context as more important or 'native' than any other

You missed from my argument that the above statement is part of my argument: it is normal for language to also represent controversial (contextually) cases, but «that is no argument for fixing [such] particular meaning or context as more important» or having priority over, especially, its core meaning.

You are missing that I oppose an appropriation, that reduces of that richness of applications to a "yes but, you see, we cannot forget what happened in Khartoum, there is no return from that episode and now if you mention it I can only think of the event". No, the richness is intact, you are covering it. And the subsequent argument I proposed, replying to you, contains: beware while covering it of not being supportive to some political effort you would otherwise oppose.

Example: one extremist a few years ago apparently instructed his followers, their music shall be that of Depeche Mode - their guts should resonate with that; the authors of «the grabbing hands grab all they can» and «we are going backwards, to a caveman mentality» showed being less than impressed. If people stopped listening to Depeche Mode because an extremist finds their sound instrumental to hook underdeveloped prefrontals, and now there is an association, they should be dehypnotized. The extremist or another could have invented that 'depeche' is now a world that means their attempt world domination: I am not saying that Gore Gahan and Fletcher have a full right to the word, I am saying that one would not be justified to call the word "now embarassing" because some fool came up with his low fumes.

If we measured our associations with the worse in society, we would be in deep trouble, repeat:

supporting and justifying associations following the worse in society is a recipe for collective damage.

Never empower the "wrong side". If already you allow them to bend your vocabulary...

Technically, for the rest: a term is a pattern, one can apply it metaphorically to a large number of cases. (Its transliteration is largely irrelevant - 'jñāna', 'gnoscere', 'know'...) The core meaning is found navigating to the "original" pattern behind all applications. Etymology helps you with that. Forgetting the core pattern is what I called uprooting.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by paulryanrogers on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:45AM (#28156260)
If we accept that language is a cultural battlefield, then is this really a hill worth dieing on?
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by trangus_1985 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:26AM (#28154005)
>The term 'master' is innocent. And it has close to fullest right to be part of the language.

Meanwhile, here in the good ol' USA, we might have mucked up that elegant latin lesson a little bit [0]

0 - http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/enslavement/tex...

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:44AM (#28154142)
I see, but if you take a term like 'bunny'* and then for some reason it becomes - I don't know - a sensational sexual innuendo in south Boston or the whole of the continent, it is not a fault of 'bunny', and one cannot expect that others in Anywheristan start having problems with 'bunny' out of somebody's folly.

* the first term I could think of, probably as I am writing from a field having plenty of them nearby.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:00AM (#28154259)
See: Pussy
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by trangus_1985 on Monday August 16, 2021 @06:42AM (#28196675)
> one cannot expect that others in Anywheristan start having problems with 'bunny' out of somebody's folly

well that's the funny thing about language - it's very democratized in some ways. After a while, if even 10% of people use it to actively mean something sexual, the majority of people will know that it's meant to indicate something sexual.

You've reinvented dialects.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by throw0101a on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:47AM (#28155560)
> Following an old proverb, reportedly from or nobilitated by Cervantes, you are invited "not to mention the rope in the house of the hanged".

Cites:

* https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/978019953...

* https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/don...

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by el_oni on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:32AM (#28154053)
while this might be true, the fact that there are master-slave analogies elsewhere makes other uses of master in CS suspect.

if the analogy had been "master-apprentice" instead there probably wouldnt be as much pushback everywhere else. while this particular instance might be an over correction, i think the overall trend has been a move in the right direction

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by skytreader on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:35AM (#28155436)
> if the analogy had been "master-apprentice" instead there probably wouldnt be as much pushback everywhere else

Except, you know, apprentices eventually become masters themselves. And the space isn't zero-sum; "Master Verrochio taught Master Leonardo" is semantically valid. It doesn't illustrate the semantics of, say, data replication where there is only one master at a time and the slaves are not supposed to be promoted. "Master-slave" captures the relationship succinctly.

True, it hearkens back to a dark time in US history but if that is the only criteria for censoring usage of this term, are we not also censoring discussions about this period? I agree with the sentiment to be ashamed of it but to the point where you can't even derive metaphors from it? Reeks of cowardly denial.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by resonious on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:57AM (#28155667)
Right, human slavery is genuinely horrific, but trying to shield our eyes from it doesn't seem like a good way to combat it.

I think the GP's rope analogy paints a pretty good picture. Should we stop using the word "rope"? Rope has been used in a horrific way in the past.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by el_oni on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:21AM (#28156719)
>only one master at a time and the slaves are not meant to be promoted.

So not like a historical master-slave relationship.

Master-slave may capture the relationship, but humans still have to read, write and interact with those systems.

Some of those humans still suffer from the legacy of slavery, jim crow and voter suppression.

We can come up with analogies and metaphors which arent so evocative and make working with systems more pleasant just on account of not flippantly referencing the darkest part of societies history.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by skytreader on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:51AM (#28157043)
This might be a difference in values but to describe the metaphor as "flippant" is rather puritan don't you think? It's not as if the metaphor is reducing the gravitas of the issue. It does not even make a value judgment on whether or not slavery is wrong. It is a neutral metaphor at best.

If we as a society move to a state where a metaphor like so is verboten just because it is less pleasant or already considered "evocative" then how can we have deep and nuanced discussions on this period itself? You know the ones where we explicitly acknowledge the horrors of slave dehumanization, the terrible working conditions in the plantations, the violence stemming from these racist beliefs, among others.

Those issues are too heavy to be evoked by the metaphor (and frankly irrelevant to its purpose) and yet our current trajectory would want people to do away with it when it only serves to illustrates the relationship between computing resources. It's not even a comment on social history.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by hulitu on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:19AM (#28153959)
Yes, but we need work. Also by introducing more bugs we can work more. /s
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by peoplefromibiza on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:25AM (#28154000)
the word "master" predates american slavery (apparently the only slavery people care about)

blacklist predates black people being enslaved in America.

It's PC war on words that distorted their original meaning.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by 542458 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:52AM (#28155065)
The word fa***t predates it’s use as a slur for homosexuals, but I don’t think anybody reasonable would argue that it’s not commonly perceived as an offensive term. These are obviously different degrees of subjective “offensiveness”, but my point is that people don’t sit down and work out the etymology before deciding if something makes them feel bad.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:16AM (#28156651)
Snowflake is an insulting term for overly sensitive SJWs... but it's also a word for an actual snowflake. No matter how offensive it is to someone, we still need a word for literal snowflakes falling from the clouds.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by slantyyz on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:50AM (#28157026)
It's also used to describe a shape. For example, a "snowflake" schema.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by peoplefromibiza on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:07AM (#28155182)
master has never been a slur, it was never meant to mean insult, it is an honorific title.

A "glass masters of Murano" makes beautiful art with glass, because he's a master in that craft.

Doesn't matter if the word has been distorted to mean something bad for a brief period of human history.

Slave is the offending word, not master.

We should have master branch or master database, but secondary branch and secondary database, instead of "slave" ones.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by s3tz on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:24AM (#28153121)
Fine, but at least make it consistent then. GitHub uses "main" and now this uses "primary", next someone will use "base" and I'm not sure at all how this is better in any way.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by bschne on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:31AM (#28153634)
That's hardly in the hands of any one developer to make consistent, and it was hardly entirely consistent before. As long as it makes sense in the context of a given project...
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by handrous on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:23AM (#28156740)
In the context of a master password, it doesn't make sense to change it. It's analogous (closely, but not perfectly) to "master key", a term which non-nerds may be familiar with from the world of physical keys (and which term, in that context, isn't going anywhere, in part because, as with this one, there's no reason whatsoever for it to) so gave normal folks a better handle on what it means and how to use the software.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by post-it on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:31AM (#28154040)
There's no reason they should be consistent. Different git hosts, sure, but a master branch and master password have nothing in common but the name (which is now different).
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by foresto on Thursday August 12, 2021 @02:17PM (#28159605)
> GitHub uses "main"

Amid the currently fashionable trend of language culling, I was mildly surprised to find myself agreeing with this particular change: In git, I think "main" is a better choice than "master", because it more accurately and succinctly reflects the intent.

(In general, though, I think the trend is misguided and counterproductive.)

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by gsich on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:18AM (#28155278)
except master of science and other relevant studies.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by codewiz on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:47AM (#28153314)
More importantly, why can't Thunderbird and Firefox just integrate with GNOME Keyring / KDE Wallet to retrieve the m...primary password without prompting the user on startup?
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by hulitu on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:17AM (#28153942)
Because not everybody is using GNOME or KDE.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mschuster91 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:22AM (#28153980)
So what? A well-designed keychain implementation should be able to deal with a multitude of keychain providers - OS (KDE, Gnome, macOS, not sure about Android and iOS, gnupg smartcards).
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by alpaca128 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:51AM (#28154610)
Support of a feature doesn't mean reliance on a feature.

You can install and use Gnome/KDE apps on other desktops as well. It's just a bit dependency heavy.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by llimos on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:32AM (#28154936)
I wish I could believe that a single Black person's life across all of time and space will improve because of this change.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by tomrod on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:22AM (#28155317)
I believe the ones who told me the nomenclature is troubling for them.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by michaelgrafl on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:26AM (#28154445)
It doesn't. I wish they would have called it Super Password, which I just thought up and makes more sense while hopefully not offending anyone.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jpxw on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:56AM (#28154229)
Yet another case of an organisation giving in to pressure from a vocal minority of activists.

Master does not mean the same as Primary. Master does not mean the same as Main. Efforts to replace Master with alternative, less precise words make it harder to understand what things are actually meant to be doing.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by agumonkey on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:39AM (#28154535)
Root could have fit nice I suppose. It's also climate change ready.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by zlib on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:54AM (#28154637)
It's absolutely ridiculous.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by raffraffraff on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:02AM (#28157182)
No, it's the whole "the word 'master' is somehow racist" crap.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by gpmcadam on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:57AM (#28154240)
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by throw7 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:32PM (#28158360)
I feel like I'm Stallone in the movie Demolition Man.
[dead]
[dead]
[dead]
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by getlawgdon on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:35AM (#28154953)
You could write a manual for national socialism. I bet you think I'm talking about socialism.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by notathrowaway2 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:01AM (#28155133)
You could write a manual for containers. I bet you think I'm talking about containment.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jollybean on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:26AM (#28155356)
The disagreement is not over 'inclusivity' - it's over whether a specific word has anything to do with it.

The #1 failure of social justice activist movements worldwide is to suggest that people who don't agree with a particular policy must somehow be racist/sexist.

It's the giant bit of gaslighting that discredits the movement, and frankly, in some cases, reveals 'truer intentions'.

The assumption that arbitrary words must have anything to do with reality, interpretation, applied nuance or discrimination is problematic to say the least.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Normille on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:47PM (#28159271)
Exactly.

As I alluded to in my other reply in this thread [which got downvoted into oblivion] the problem with these SJWs is that their world view is so parochial and [in terms of time] narrow, that they think these terms are offensive because "slavery"... "racism"... even when the terms and their connotations often pre-date their worldview or even their country.

A previous classic example was the same kind of people getting their knickers in a twist over the use of the adjective "black" to describe something bad because... yep, you got it... "slavery"... "racism"...

Anyone with the slightest bit of historical and cultural awareness would realise that the use of "black" as an adjective with negative connotations dates back centuries, if not millennia and blindingly obviously originates from early religious connotations of light being good and darkness being filled with danger and evil. But, of course, to the SJWs, any use of "black' in a negative sense has got to be a veiled reference to American slavery by those evil racists and their non-inclusive language.

It was a black day for the world, when this political correct bullshit became the only acceptable form of expression.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ruiidont on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:30AM (#28154918)
Is that really all you got from the massive list of changes? Disappointing.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:15PM (#28158127)
No, just a few minutes before that post I posted about a feature that I was happy to see. This was the second item on the massive list of changes that drew my attention.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by robert_foss on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:12AM (#28153031)
I think language matters, and de-normalizing language with a root in slavery is a good idea.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jtsuken on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:28AM (#28153615)
Also, on that note some Slavic countries might request their naming and history be changed to something delinked from slavery... Shall we rename Slovenia and Slovakia, too?
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by C19is20 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:40AM (#28153693)
Yes. I suggest 'Primary', and 'Secondary'. Then let them sort out who is which. Winner gets to be...oh, wait.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:18AM (#28153950)
Exactly. I am always shocked about some terms becoming a matter of sensation, yet those people condemning them oftentimes use the term 'slave' in their expression, instead of, say, the original 'servant'. And following their "feeling", there should be very few terms more offensive than 'slave' (it means that the default servant is a Slav).
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:23AM (#28156732)
And it's never the slavs being offended, but always middle-class white americans.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by The_Colonel on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:44AM (#28155016)
The root of the names Slovakia (Slovensko) and Slovenia (Slovenija) trace back to "slovo", literally "word" (denoting people who speak the same language).
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:21AM (#28156712)
Yugoslavia is based on souther slavs (juzni slaveni), so slavs.

Source: born there

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by The_Colonel on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:26PM (#28160413)
... and "slaveni" comes again from "slovo".
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by post-it on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:41AM (#28154118)
Sure, countries change their names all the time. North Macedonia and Eswatini in the last three years, for example.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:59AM (#28154254)
They changed their name for non futile reasons.

And contextually, 'slave' comes from 'Slav', not the opposite: you meet a Pispathian, you decide that a "pisp" (which incidentally in local language with a good chance means "valiant" or similar) is a reifiable one of a reifiable people, and after the insult they should also change their name?!

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by post-it on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:13PM (#28158088)
Of course not.

> some Slavic countries might request their naming and history be changed to something delinked from slavery... Shall we rename Slovenia and Slovakia, too?

If they want to rename themselves, we should use their new names.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:51PM (#28158617)
I think the original poster meant that Slovenia and Slovakia would never think of renaming themselves, especially not for the absurd reason that the Romans attached an unflattering association with their name.

Edit: read my original sentence as "and after the insult they should also be thought considering changing their name?!".

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by dotancohen on Thursday August 12, 2021 @12:25PM (#28158267)
Are any people affected by slavery asking for Thunderbird to change the name of components with two decades of documentation?
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by annexrichmond on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:20AM (#28153089)
the usage of master in "Master Password" is an adjective; seems like pretty a weak connection to the noun "Master" in the context of slavery
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jagger27 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:41AM (#28156206)
Technically it's a noun adjunct (also called attributive noun or qualifying noun).
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:39AM (#28154104)
The world often divides in two. Surely, relevantly,

-- those who think that language is what median people use and that naive use has a right to be accepted and create rules, seeing language as a social matter, and

-- those who think that language is what the learned have built out of competence and reflection, calling language an entity rightfully separate from societies.

For both parties «language matters». But they do not speak the same language - the second party refuses to accept bastard semantics, illegitimately born "from the saddle of incompetence". Their conclusions are opposite.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by flamble on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:39AM (#28155467)
The notion that language is "what the learned have built out of competence and reflection" is abjectly risible. The evolution of language consists of corruption, confusion, coinages of demotic provenance, and general chaos. The contributions of learned classicists to the modern language are subject to exactly the same inexorable flux.

There is no party that refuses to accept "bastard" semantics; in no language does there exist a fraction of a syllable of legitimate descent. The only recourse open to the pedant and misanthrope is to forgo the use of language altogether, which would in your case constitute a marked improvement in the discourse.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by mdp2021 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:48AM (#28155566)
False, if only because it is evident that naive and competent are evident opposites, practically. You can see the competent and the naive use, they cannot be mixed.

By the way: you have completely misunderstood 'is' in the quotation. It was not descriptive language, it was deontic.

And for what your «which would in your case constitute a marked improvement in the discourse»: this is the first time I find myself in front of the shallow disrespect that I expect elsewhere from YCombinator. Happily - look around -, with that attitude, you are the one isolated.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by renewiltord on Thursday August 12, 2021 @03:37AM (#28153222)
"Master Key" precedes or is parallel to the Atlantic slave trade. I don't believe it has a root in slavery. Master Password is surely more related to Master Key than to any other sense of Master.

Not arguing that it should or shouldn't be changed. They can change it for alliteration for all I care. Just want to talk about this etymology because that interests me.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by foresto on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:29AM (#28154026)
Language is complicated, but I think I agree. Here are the most relevant bits I found just now in the Oxford English Dictionary:

master, n.1 and adj.

[...]

Origin: Of multiple origins. Partly a borrowing from Latin. Partly a borrowing from French. Etymons: Latin magistr-, magister; French maistre.

[...]

The classical Latin word has numerous Romance and Germanic derivatives, e.g. Italian maestro (compare maestro n.), Spanish maestro, Portuguese mestre (compare maistry n.); Old Frisian mastere, mestere (West Frisian master), Middle Dutch meester, meister, mester (Dutch meester), Old Saxon mēstar (Middle Low German mēster, mester, meyster, Low German meester), Old High German maistar, maister, meistar, meister (Middle High German meister, German Meister; compare Meistersinger n.), Old Icelandic meistari (Icelandic meistari), Norwegian (Nynorsk) meister, Old Swedish mæstare (Swedish mästare), Old Danish mester (Danish mester). See also mistress n.

Senses in all four branches are paralleled by uses in Latin, in branch A. III. initially reflecting use of Latin magister in the medieval universities.

With uses at branch A. IV., compare adjectival use in French in the sense ‘principal’ (applied to people from c1100 in Old French, to material objects and immaterial things from the 12th cent. in Anglo-Norman); compare also Italian maestro , used adjectivally in this sense from the 14th cent.

[..."Master-gate" was the closest I could find to master password or key...]

Compounds

C2. Applied in extended use to things, with the sense ‘main’, ‘principal’, ‘controlling’, ‘originating’. In such compounds master is generally construed as a noun, but in some cases the grammatical character of the compound is uncertain or fluctuating, and master may be considered to be functioning as an adjective.

a. Of material things. Esp. frequent in terms relating to building and the human body (in non-technical use), and later to machinery, electronics, etc.

master-gate n.

1340 Ayenbite (1866) 249 (MED) Þe mouþ..is þe mayster gate of þe castele of þe herte.

a1500 (▸?c1450) Merlin 422 He com to the maister yate of the paleys.

c1720 N. Dubois & G. Leoni tr. A. Palladio Architecture II. iii. 7 The chief Entry, or Master gate.

1998 Re: Sad Sight on Test Center in rec.games.computer.ultima.online (Usenet newsgroup) 8 Feb. I created a new character and walked through a Master Gate to do exactly what you do.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by OtomotO on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:04AM (#28153448)
but then again the "master key" once probably was the key to the barn where the slaves were held or the one to the "master bedroom" or such.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by bruce343434 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:41AM (#28153704)
then again the term "ship" once probably was the vessel on which slaves were transported so we need new nomenclature for that as well.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by OtomotO on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:54AM (#28154216)
Any word touched by evil men becomes automatically evil, hence they will control our thoughts and have already won...

that's why I am on team Lighbringer... go Luci, go!

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by garmaine on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:12AM (#28153501)
“Master key” goes back to 1577, which predates English involvement in the African slave trade.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by OtomotO on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:10AM (#28153893)
in my mothertongue a lot of words were misused during the course of time.

they had no bad connotation when they were introduced, but then they were used by "bad people" (by current standards) and now they are "dead" or rather "not to be used"

I guess it's the same in English :)

But times change

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by peoplefromibiza on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:29AM (#28154030)
master has no root in slavery.

to put it in another way: if master has to be removed because of slavery in america, then we should also remove the words chain, boat and trade.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by getlawgdon on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:38AM (#28154977)
Comically terrible examples)reasoning. You could have just used "pussy" as the example and done much better.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by peoplefromibiza on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:02AM (#28155143)
Can you please explain me why?

I am able to connect chains to slavery, but pussy?

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by systemvoltage on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:22AM (#28153574)
The way these things happen is someone makes a suggestion in the company. Anyone who wants to oppose this change has a risk of being labelled racist. Now, you don't want to be "one of those" people, do you? So, these things get pushed through without anyone challenging it. It is self-censorship.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by Dma54rhs on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:20AM (#28155302)
If anything it's time to de-normalize American cultural imperialism.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by garmaine on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:06AM (#28153458)
That would make sense if this word in this connotation had any connection to slavery. It doesn’t.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by hoseja on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:50AM (#28154178)
I recommend "doubleplusgood password", should be maximally inclusive.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by funcDropShadow on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:11AM (#28154338)
That assumes that the word master has a root in slavery. It was certainly used during slavery in the Americas. But it is much older. And changing the label does not change the ingredients. The impression that the word master is strongly associated with slavery is a concept that exist in that form only in the USA. But nevertheless, activists continue to fight dictionary entries instead of the problem they claim to be fighting.

The fight over every day language is a tool of opresive regimes, e.g. Hitler used it, Stalin used it, the DDR used it. I miss evidence that this fight has ever yielded positive outcomes.

Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by GrumpyNl on Thursday August 12, 2021 @04:11AM (#28153494)
The word master has to be removed or avoided in all software.
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by hulitu on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:24AM (#28153991)
And while we are at it the words black, red, yellow, white, fat, skinny, redundant, branch and other words shall be replaced with something else. What can go wrong ? Important is to be pollitically correct. /s
Re:Thunderbird 91.0 by jpxw on Thursday August 12, 2021 @05:54AM (#28154210)
You joke, but blacklist and whitelist are in the process of being cancelled.