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Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by haswell on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:08PM (#27507624)
This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires.

I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks from folks who're unfamiliar with the concept, but it's such a great setup.

Comfy/soft ride too.

Edit: Cannondale Topstone if anyone is curious.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by auxym on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:38PM (#27509749)
In many ways, modern gravel bikes are a comeback of the "sport touring" road bikes that were popular from roughly the mid 70s to the mid 90s, then became mostly absent from market. Compared with "racing" bikes, they had wider tires, a more relaxed geometry, and various conveniences such as mounting points for fenders and racks. Thus, they were a much better option for the majority of riders who did not participate in serious road racing.

Then for 20 years you couldn't really get a road bike with tires larger than 23 mm, which is totally illogical in places with less than perfect roads such as here in Canada.

Really happy that gravel bikes have brought back some sensibility to the sport, and that they provide a nice "all around" option in a market where manufacturers had been using "super specialization" of products to entice customers to buy more products.

Now I'm waiting for a similar trend to take over XC skiing!

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by Swizec on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:32PM (#27510394)
In my neck of Europe those bikes reached peak popularity in the 90's and early 00's. We called them "city mountain bikes".

Their distinguishing feature was that a "mountain bike" comes with gears (normal bikes don't), which was very popular. The city edition came with fenders, luggage racks, a nice bell, stand, etc.

Big fat tyres, comfy geometry. The tires usually had a slick strip in the middle and grooves on the sides so you had slicks running on pavement and got massive grip turning on gravel.

As it got cheaper, they even started having front suspension.

Looked kinda like this:

https://www.bolha.com/image-bigger/gorska-kolesa/mosko-gorsk...

https://www.velo.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pics_...

https://www.bolha.com/image-w920x690/mestna-kolesa/mestno-in...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by stinos on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:27AM (#27512329)
These aren't the types of bikes meant by the one you're replying to, I think: these are basically mountain bikes with modifications for day to day road use. The other are gravel bikes (which is what I assume means the ones used in cyclocross i.e. a sturdier version of a road bike) modified for day to day road use. But yes these citybikes were very popular in Europe.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by mymythisisthis on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:45AM (#27513399)
Touring bike is my favourite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle#/media/File:Lo...

Very similar to cycle cross (a wide range of gears) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Fo...

The hybrid has straight handlebars https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/AE...

Mountain bikes, gravel bikes, are slow. Gearing is for climbing a mountain. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/No...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by stinos on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:22AM (#27515049)
Mountain bikes, gravel bikes, are slow

Given the huge difference between the 2 I'm not sure what you mean? Also because these days 'mountain bike' is an umbrella term, whereas gravel bike is still rather specific. E.g. that last link shows already a rather specific segment of maountain bikes: dual suspension, quite a lot of travel on the front suspension, totally suited for going down the hill fast as well.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by chemmail on Thursday June 17, 2021 @04:49AM (#27537462)
Yeah the bottom one is close to being a Bomber.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by auxym on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:20AM (#27515001)
Indeed, for anyone curious, have a look at the 1985 Raleigh (a notable UK company at the time) catalog, and compare the "Road Sport" category with "Sport Touring": https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/catalogs/1985/ind...
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by analog31 on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:25PM (#27510618)
Amusingly, here in the Midwest we refer to the skis that we use for poor snow conditions, where there's a lot of mud and muck, as "gravel skis."
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rukuu001 on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:39PM (#27510089)
Surly made a couple bike you could put fat tires on - their touring bike and a cyclocross bike. I don’t know if they’re still available but they were selling them in the mid-2000s
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ehnto on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:06AM (#27511164)
Definitely still available. That segment of the industry has exploded. Another great manufacturer for touring/adventure bikes is Bombtrack.

Many touring/adventure bikes will double as way better commuter than a road bike I feel. They are set up for comfort, long hours in the saddle, and usually have with luggage mounts.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by blakblakarak on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:46AM (#27513050)
My 15 year old Surly Crosscheck is probably my most ridden bike - it was one of the 'first' gravel bikes (they've been making them for 20 years) before they really became a thing. The cantilever brakes are rubbish but that just makes it more fun.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by minikomi on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:53AM (#27513454)
If you haven't, and have the budget to do so, try a set of Paul Components mini motos. Fantastic brakes.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ehnto on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:47AM (#27513415)
I have a bike with cantilevers too, I admire their robustness but yep, definitely not the quickest way to stop in a hurry.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rukuu001 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:35AM (#27512021)
I haven't had to pay attention to that market because my 2007 Surly is still going strong :)
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by devb on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:07PM (#27510264)
Every Surly bike takes wide tires. Their Pugsley was the first mass-produced fat bike, starting back in 2005.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by zikduruqe on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @08:20AM (#27514199)
Fatties Fit Fine on most of their bikes.

I ride 40mm tires on my Long Haul Trucker.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:00AM (#27513133)
The annoying thing is that the industry still tweaks those perfectly functional gravel bikes for "performance" cycling adding useless features like an aggresive low stack geometry, 1x only drivetrain compatibility, nonsense suspension. Jan Heine gave us some of the best advice through Bicycle Quaterly, his books and the Rene Herse website.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by cameron_b on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:50AM (#27516345)
The 1-by drivetrain is something I sought out when looking for my Wife's bike ( or last new bike purchase several years ago ). The advances in the range you can stack in a single cassette totally outweigh the upside of a second ring up front. She has no plans to take that bike up HWY 80 to the Blue Ridge Parkway, and apart from that, she gets by just fine even pulling a kid trailer around town.

My experience with 1-by drive is that the simplicity and (hopefully) fewer opportunities for derailment are totally worth it.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @11:21PM (#27524533)
One by drivetrains certainly have their advantages, but many new gravel bikes sacrifice 2x drivetrain compatibility for ultra short chainstays and only accept 1x. Notable examples are Marin Headlands and the Gestalt X10 and X11. Others models that also accept 2x have their whole lineup equipped with 1x. If you also want to use the bike as a road bike, good luck with that. It's either climb hills or go fast with current gravel 1x drivetrains, depending on the size of your chainring. For me the new GRX gravel drivetrain from Shimano has been a godsend: a no nonsense subcompact 46/30 crank and a deraileur usable with up to 11-34(36) casettes or a 1x option usable with up to 11-42(46) casettes. If it wasn't for the gravel/all road bike I would have probably never gotten a proper road bike with skinny tires because it's only usable on roads that one shares with other motorized vehicles.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by bluecalm on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @11:10AM (#27529380)
My first gravel bike came with 42t crank and 11-42 cassette. It's perfect for everyday use. You spin out at like 45km/h (or even higher if you can do high cadence) while the 1-1 gear allows you to climb pretty steep hills. Sure, it's not enough for a road race and I prefer 2x drivetrain these days as I do a lot of distance on pavement but I still think 1x is just a better option for most recreational cyclists.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @06:22PM (#27534136)
I can't really climb steep hills with 28 gear inches on the road, let alone on singletrack. But yes, your gear ratio is suitable for road.

My all-road bike has 23 (30/34·26.5", 650bx45 wheels). I don't race.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by plorkyeran on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:26PM (#27507841)
Yeah, when I first got my gravel bike I thought I'd be sacrificing some road performance for better flexibility and comfort, but that didn't happen. The actual result was that my times on smooth segments were unchanged and I've beaten many of my personal bests on rougher roads (and obviously it's much better on dirt).

It's not a perfectly fair comparison because I did upgrade to a nicer bike in the process, but my previous bike was already into the territory of significant diminishing returns for someone who doesn't race and doesn't actually care about saving seconds.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:22AM (#27511616)
Don't gravel bikes have much smaller gear ratios? There is no way a strong road cyclist would have the same times on a gravel bike as a road bike purely due to the size of the front chain ring. I run a semi-compact up front on my road bike and I can't go faster than 53kmh on the flat without my cadence getting too high to sustain for longer periods of time.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by plorkyeran on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:36AM (#27516130)
I run out of gears on flat terrain but that is a negligible portion of what I ride. I'd definitely expect a gravel bike to be a bigger handicap if you're riding mostly flat terrain and actually care about your speed on those sections.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by slms on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:34AM (#27512688)
Serious gravel racers definitely run more "road-like" ratios
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by blakblakarak on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:48AM (#27513061)
If you can spin out a 50x11 or similar on the flat you're in a very small minority of cyclists...
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @07:17AM (#27513656)
I'm not spinning out but I am spinning faster than I can sustain / is efficient. I'm looking for the next gear basically. Spinning out is much faster and requires and descent (for me at least). Based on Strava I'm not that strong. Top 40% maybe. If I was racing I'd be cat 4. My observation is more to do with stronger riders than I am. Once you get to a certain speed/ftp all the considerations like rolling resistance, gearing, aero etc become much more obvious. If you are averaging 29.5km/h like in the test you might think optimisations don't make much difference but if you average 40kmh+ you will know they do.

They even note this in the article "If you ride much faster, then it’s possible that wider tires have a little more wind resistance, but the difference will be so small that it’ll get lost in all the other factors that influence your bike’s speed. On the other hand, if you ride slower, then the advantage of wider tires will be even greater."

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by egman_ekki on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:16AM (#27511910)
I don't think the difference is that large, but there is some. I haven't tried myself, but would be interesting to test it against each other.

You can compare gearing ratios on 99spokes, e.g. https://99spokes.com/compare?bikes=scott-speedster-gravel-20...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:24AM (#27511946)
I've been road riding with people who switched to gravel bikes and they were suddenly noticeably slower. They also seemed to run out of gas earlier which means they were expending more energy to keep up.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by vladvasiliu on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:33AM (#27511998)
Weren't those new bikes heavier?

My own road bike is nothing particularly fancy, but it's very light. Just because those bikes may be made to take more of a beating than a road-bike, they may be heavier. I'm thinking in particular tougher wheels and front work, possibly the whole frame.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:04AM (#27512210)
We were riding on mostly flat terrain so it wouldn't be a big differentiator.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by discreteevent on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:25AM (#27512642)
Were they using tires without any tread?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by egman_ekki on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:21AM (#27512922)
interesting, maybe different frame geometry contributed as well?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:28AM (#27512962)
I would imagine this would be considerable. Improving your aero position is the easiest way to go faster.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by unethical_ban on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:10AM (#27514847)
My 2019 Trek Crossrip has 48/32 and 11-32. Of course, you could switch those components up - the biggest difference between gravel and road is the clearance for wider tires, and "relaxed" or upright geometry, plus capability for more mounting.

And Cannondale even has a carbon frame with a front suspension and rear flex on the frame for a near-full-suspension behavior.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:12AM (#27513205)
Not much smaller, 46/30 crank instead of 50/34 and maybe 34 or 36 rear cogs instead of 28 or 32.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pharmakom on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:25AM (#27511947)
You could put a road groupset on most gravel frames.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ehnto on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:08AM (#27511178)
I ended up commuting on my big tire bike because it's so much more comfortable and just as quick.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by wolrah on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:06AM (#27511520)
The second most annoying thing to me about cyclists are the number of them who complain about the quality of the road or path while riding what is more or less a race bike.

Shockingly, road race vehicles of any variety generally are not built for comfort or ability to handle less than ideal conditions. Stop acting like you think you're in the TdF and get a bike that makes sense for where you ride.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by supersrdjan on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:23AM (#27511631)
Ah yes I am a cyclist and I approve this message. Reminds me of this saying from an Indian monk:

Where would I find enough leather To cover the entire surface of the earth? But with leather soles beneath my feet,It’s as if the whole world has been covered.

Just replace leather soles with sufficiently wide rubber tires

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by xcambar on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:04AM (#27511843)
Thanks for the very sensible quote.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by globular-toast on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:12AM (#27512576)
It's OK to complain about the quality of the road or path if you pay for it. Heavy vehicles are what make the surface bad and fat tyres or not, riding on a smooth surface is way more enjoyable.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by nchi3 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:46AM (#27512751)
Bad as in not-smooth or bad as in pot holes? I hope not the latter, because that's dangerous no matter the type of bike, and I haven't heard/read many people complain about the former.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by wolrah on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @09:19AM (#27591225)
Bad as in not smooth, like far from perfect but also nothing I had ever thought twice about while riding a couple hundred dollar retail store mountain bike. Average Ohio roads, not the worst but definitely weathered.

My former housemate had some kind of race bike with a carbon fiber frame, it weighed next to nothing but he was constantly in fear of road debris, couldn't hop curbs, etc. It was a terrible choice for where he was actually riding.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by gield on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:26AM (#27511966)
If the quality of the road is bad, gravel bikes are equally as uncomfortable as race bikes. Not talking about non-asphalted roads as race bikes are of course not made for those.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by wolrah on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @09:28AM (#27591327)
I'm not talking about comfort, I'm talking about ability to handle the surface properly. Skinny nonsense race bike tires get swallowed up by cracks in the road that reasonable tires just go right over. They're more fragile to debris and simply have less traction on less than ideal surfaces because there's just less tread to work with.

That said the idea that more air cushion space doesn't lead to greater comfort is absurd. A tire that has room to compress doesn't bottom out.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by namdnay on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:16AM (#27512899)
The fatter tyres do cushion it a bit. And most "cycle to work" bikes I've seen (especially ebikes) will have a small front shock
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jasonvorhe on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:43PM (#27508053)
I got my Cannondale CAADX in 2015 right before the gravel hype started. I've put WTB Riddler 37 on it and it's close to a gravel bike but a bit more direct and maneuverable - I love it. If I was in for a new bike right now, I'd be very tempted to get a Canyon Grail with electronic shifting though. After Cannondale's manufacturing error put me in the hospital for a night followed by a broad recall of a lot of their carbon fiber forks and they new minimalist logo I'm just not a fan of Cannondale anymore. But the Topstone is a great bike!
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by aix1 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @11:51AM (#27517247)
Sorry to hear that you were affected by the fork defect. I hope there were no lasting effects from the injuries.

I got Cannondale's recall email as I was flying to Kenya, with my CAADX, for a cycling trip. Was a bit nervous riding the bike, especially given the terrain, but in the end decided to risk it as I didn't want to curtail the trip.

At the time I was wondering whether I was overreacting, and decided that I probably was. It is quite shocking to come across someone who personally suffered an accident due to the fault.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by krono on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:20PM (#27507775)
Yeah, my roady friends are jealous because I get to use my gravelbike off-road, and my mountainbike friends are jealous at me for being able to keep up with roadies. And all that for the price of one bike and an extra set of wheels with slicks!

Canyon Grail here, yes the one with the weird cockpit :)

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by photojosh on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:00PM (#27510520)
How off-road do you go? I have a gravel bike too, but I much prefer the MTB for rocky descents.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by whakim on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:16AM (#27511230)
I also own a Canyon Grail (the alloy one, so no weird handlebar) and it's pretty capable for fire roads and some singletrack. When it gets really rocky and rooty though I find myself having less fun simply because the riding experience becomes so jarring and rattly. It's also way more fun to climb on (as in you actually enjoy the climbs as opposed to just doing them to get to the downhills) compared to a mountain bike. Where I live I have to ride ~7 miles each way to get to the trails so it makes a lot of sense as my one off-road bike.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by _huayra_ on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:51AM (#27513080)
Yeah some of the gravel bike stuff really amazes me these days. I can't imagine doing some descents on anything but a fireroad with a gravel bike due to the un-slack geometry, but I've seen people bomb green downhill runs at some bike parks!
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by krono on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:17PM (#27532992)
Mostly just normal gravel roads and forest paths. I have done some very light MTB trails (here in the flatter than flat Netherlands), and did some touring through the German Eifel (that was intense!) and the Belgian Ardennes.

For me it's al about having the freedom to go where I feel like going in the moment and not having to worry too much about gear. For me this bike is like the golden mean, but there are other gravel bikes with slightly more clearance or better shock absorption if you're looking to take it on slightly more intense trips.

Here's a quirky gravel-centric YouTube channel I came across a while back: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV9WtB_q5sJfe3Rev5PWy-Q

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by dharmab on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:25PM (#27507833)
Similarly in the motorcycle world, dual sport and adventure models originally designed for on road/off road mix are now quite popular as commuter machines. Their long suspension makes them quite comfortable over potholes, cracks, curbs and generally poor road surfaces. And many models are narrow enough to filter between lanes with ease.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by taneq on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:18PM (#27509975)
I see those dual sports all the time and I don't see the attraction other than image. They're less agile on-road which is where they spend their time. At least they're not as silly as the trend of sticking knobbly tyres on road bikes for that "scrambler" look.

If anything the opposite trend makes more sense, the motard / supermotard style where a competent off-road bike is retrofitted with road tyres and suspension tuning. They look like an absolute blast.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by Sleepytime on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:18PM (#27510315)
Dual sports can usually withstand a few drops with nothing more than new levers, parts are cheap, and maintenance is usually easier than street bikes. I almost always recommend a small dual sport as a first bike. If you get a used one for a decent price you can almost always sell it for what you paid for it even if it takes a couple of tumbles, and you can see if you like off-road too.

>At least they're not as silly as the trend of sticking knobbly tyres on road bikes for that "scrambler" look.

FWIW I've got a mid-weight streetfighter that I'd love to put some 50/50 tires and a skid plate on. But I already take it into the dirt so it would be an improvement.

And yes, supermotos might be the ultimate motorcycle.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by deviation on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:25PM (#27510926)
Would like to jump on this comment to agree with you.

A buddy of mine dropped his s1000rr coming out of a right turn at a traffic light and was up for around $8k in damages... He was only going ~10mph. I envy those who can fix their bikes after dropping them for $20 when they didn't even have frame sliders etc.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by taneq on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:01AM (#27512519)
Yeah, I ride a semi-naked and as my first 'big bike' (I've had it nearly a decade, though) it's been dropped a couple of times, with only a couple of scuffs on the crankcase to show for it. Definitely a big consideration!
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by mmmBacon on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:57PM (#27510505)
This is only true if you keep the 21” front when and then only if you are trying to keep up with skilled riders (disclaimer I’m not the average rider). Had a dual sport that I made into a super moto with ultra stick rubber. Would blow away a GSXR/Ducati/R1/R6 on HWY 9 all the windy sections. Those bikes could out accelerate me on straights but they all held me up in corners.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by KozmoNau7 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:37AM (#27512381)
I had an absolute blast on my Yamaha XT660X, which was sort of a motard version of a dual-sport. Small and light for an adventure bike, but a bit too large and heavy to be a true supermoto.

660cc single-cylinder that you could just beat on all day without breaking the law too much, plus super long suspension travel and fat sticky road tires made for a bike that just ate up speed bumps and rough roads. I pulled some gnarly wheelies over bumps and cresting hills, so much fun.

And it was obnoxiously orange, I loved that bike. It was a shame someone else decided that he liked it more and cut though a massive Kryptonite chain to get it.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ultrarunner on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:08PM (#27508945)
I would argue that "designed for [off] road mix" is pretty charitable. A 500-pound dirt bike with a comfortable seating position wins the tough-aesthetics competition, but off road performance is meager at best. I built decent off-road skills on a DL1000, but the weight was always such a liability as to make it impracticable. I moved to a smaller and lighter bike and have more fun, but 99% of people I met in Arizona are happy with their big ADV bikes— with zero interest in going off road.

I think the most interesting take-away is that there is a segment of people who value being given an excuse for something rugged— I heard lots of "I just like the peace-of-mind that I could go anywhere if I needed to" whether they believe themselves or not.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by Sleepytime on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:21PM (#27510341)
Even on a street only trip I'd prefer an adventure bike to most street bikes, the rugged factor shouldn't be discounted when you're 1000+ miles away from home and outside of cell signal.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by stickfigure on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:17AM (#27511592)
You'd be surprised. I've taken my 500-pound dirt bike (KTM 990A) to the end of Baja (all dirt), across the Trans America Trail, and to Alaska and back. Did most of the hard splits on LA-Barstow-to-Vegas a few years ago, and endless dirt riding in the Sierras and Nevada. And I'm by no means the best rider I know.

Single track is hard work but there's nothing quite like ripping open the throttle on a 100hp dirt bike and throwing up a tornado of sand. I owned an XR250R for a few years and just found it boring.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by dharmab on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:37AM (#27512027)
To be fair the VStrom 1000 the commentor was riding is fairly heavy and street oriented. A KTM, Tenere or smaller GS blows it out of the water off road.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ultrarunner on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @12:42AM (#27588056)
I've ridden with some others on big KTMs who struggle a lot more than the guys on the smaller bikes. I think once a certain weight threshold is crossed there's no argument that the bike is appropriately called an "off-road" bike, no matter how knobby the tires. Conversely, aesthetics are always in play. Especially for the GS guys at Starbucks ;)
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by LAC-Tech on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:17PM (#27509593)
Well there's shades of grey between paved tarmac and proper off road.

Not a motorcyclists but I assume these adventure/dual sport bikes perform much better over say unsealed roads, and are at least workable on fire roads.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by dharmab on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:38PM (#27511012)
Fire roads are easy mode on an ADV bike. They can do double track quite well too. They start to struggle in mud, sand and single track.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by LAC-Tech on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:10AM (#27511188)
I'd presume that pure street motorcycles would fair pretty badly on even double track.

So yeah, ADV would seem to be useful for something other than wanting to look rugged.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ultrarunner on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:09AM (#27511865)
This is exactly right. The contrast that piqued my interest was something like knobby tires on a heavy bike that spent its life on the street. Turns out people value comfort (here, seating position and long suspension travel), but those things only seem to sell with a rugged aesthetic. Balancing these needs is something of a Hard Problem, so it's interesting to watch this play out throughout the industry.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by tomgp on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:50AM (#27512138)
Totally, in London i regularly encounter cobbled streets, my big tyre gravel bike is perfect.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by vladvasiliu on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:29AM (#27511974)
I'm very happy with this trend, too.

I've always had full-on road-bikes (skinny tyres, etc). While those are great for a ride out on the hills around my parents' house, I now live in the city where the roads are in a pretty bad shape, and more importantly they're very often paved with cobblestones (probably the very same ones laid down by the Romans).

I'm looking to buy an electric bike for my commute, and most bikes have the "upright" geometry. Maybe it's because of my habits, but I don't feel as safe on those, I find them less manoeuvrable and less efficient if I need to pedal hard (though with the electric motor that last point might be less important).

I'm happy those new "all-track" as they're called here exist, with disk brakes and all the creature comforts of regular "city bikes" but with a more familiar-to-me riding position. I'm less happy with those bikes always having a suspended fork, which I've always seen as useless for road bikes, but oh well...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jiscariot on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:12PM (#27508988)
My only complaint about the gravel trend is that at the entry (and mid) level they are often using pretty crappy disc brakes when rim brakes would have been a better choice in 90% of cases. When they are hydraulic, they are a dream to use, but with a cable you really lose the brake feel.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by usrusr on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:27PM (#27510020)
Rim brakes on roadbikes are awesome, but they are awesome because the calipers don't have to go far around the tire. If you try to build them for wider tires you suffer far more flex and flex means that you can't pull a high lever transmission ratio before running out of lever movement. Remember "brake boosters" on cantilever brakes? Same problem, the requirement to transfer the counterforce far around the tire. I'm a rim brake die-hard, but for anything wider than 28 go disc.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:29AM (#27511977)
I'd had just about every cable actuated brakes. Old school cantilevers, various flavors, u-brakes, v-brakes, cable-discs etc. etc. etc.

Didn't realize what I was missing till I tried a nice set of hydraulic discs, I'll never go back.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by usrusr on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @08:44AM (#27514457)
That list is looking suspiciously void of brakes that would have trouble fitting a 28 mm tire. Yes, disc brakes can be very good, but the gap is much smaller than must people would expect.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:52AM (#27516373)
Heh, I've had my fair share that would hit the limit in the 25-28mm. In particular the shimano SLR/dual action/dual lever or whatever they are called.

I don't agree with the "gap is much smaller than people would expect". Have you tried a decent hydraulic brake? I raced on and off road, was a bike messenger, designed and built (from tubes) a mtb frame, and bike commuted nearly every workday of my life. Disc brakes have significant advantages over any rim brake.

Don't knock them till you try them, I was dubious myself.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by usrusr on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:28PM (#27521744)
Heh, I don't doubt that they are powerful and I sure won't bend over backwards to still get rim brakes next time I want/need a bike, but the "want" isn't exactly strengthened by the switch. And yes, even aluminium wheels aren't really a joy decelerating in the rain (and yes, I've been to that group ride where one guy could show off his nice new aero carbon toy while my nice new aero carbon toy had to stay at home because for a dozen hours of mostly rain as a rim rider your choice will definitely fall on the one with the aluminium wheels. I guess I just can't warm up to the idea of front wheels with twentysomething spokes. It's confusing enough already that carbon front wheels (for rim) almost universally come with 18 instead of 16, what's up with that?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:33PM (#27522452)
Er, not sure on the spokes. Why not use 18? Is 16 better somehow? I'm over 200 pounds and am hard on wheels, I've been pretty happy with Santa Cruz carbons, which in the road flavor are 24 spokes.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by vecinu on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:05PM (#27510541)
The only caveat is carbon wheels. I hate rim brakes on carbon wheels,they legitimately suck and disc is way better for that application.

I actually just sold my carbon wheels and downgraded back to aluminium until I buy a disc bike for the long term.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by matsemann on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:26AM (#27511965)
Rim breaking on deep dish tempo wheels sounds horrifying.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by usrusr on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:17AM (#27512276)
They are certainly not the kind of wheels you'd want to use on steep roads with unpredictable weather (e.g. because the trip was planned months in advance and the bike), anybody into that kind of toy usually keeps a set of low section wheels for those occasions (or bike/bikes, if the looks just don't match). Disc brake doesn't change that by the way, because crosswinds can be brutal in the mountains.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by vecinu on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @03:37AM (#27525914)
Discs solve my issue because 40mm deep is enough to not suffer from terrible crosswinds, if the wheels are made well.

The worst problem is after a few minutes of constant breaking, which you have to do if you're descending a mountain carefully and care for your life, the rim brakes on carbon start to squeal and you lose a lot of braking power. You also used to risk delamination but that isn't that big of an issue on the newer wheels.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by unethical_ban on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:20AM (#27515005)
Yeah, my gravel bike was $1000 new three years ago, and comes with "Spyre 2.0" cable disc brakes. Hydraulic brakes feel 1000% better, but I'd still rather have disc than rim. And mine are double caliper.

One thing I love about my brakes is having a second set of brake levers inline on the top of the bar - I believe the Shimano GX (gravel) series has that now for hydraulic. If I ever have to buy another gravel bike, it will have this feature.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:57PM (#27510207)
Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice.

[0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:41AM (#27512052)
Heh, rene makes a business out of being different, and has some good ideas, but they do push it to far sometimes.

Sure I get it, a stoppie shows that the brakes are not a bottleneck, it's the traction. So sure, sometimes, on some bikes, with some riders, under some conditions you get perfect braking.

However in the real world there's various rim surfaces (aluminum, steel, carbon fiber), with a variation of water, grit, sand, snow, ice to complicate things. Cable have friction and slack. Rims sometimes are not perfectly round/true in both horizontal and vertical directions. Brake pads are rarely perfectly aligned (the alignment changes as the pads wear), rarely nice soft rubber (they glaze over with heat and/or age), and are rarely braking on perfectly clean rims.

So yes, I've done a stoppie with rim brakes, but the average performance of average hydraulic disc brakes greatly exceeds the average performance of rim brakes. Their other complaint about being grabby is highly brand specific, plenty offer great modulation. Not only to discs brake better, modulate better, and tolerate temp changes better better, but they also tend to apply more even pressure. Even small differences in trueness tend to create spots on the wheel that brake less or brake more.

I didn't realize how big the difference was, or the habits I had with rim brakes. Took me awhile to unlearn dragging my brakes when ever I hit a puddle, waiting for them to catch again.

Sure if you have a pro mechanic realign your pads before every ride you'll rarely run into an issue that rim brakes handle well. However if you spend more time riding than maintenance discs will serve you well.

There's a reason even the road racers, the most conservative of the bicyclist, are switching to discs.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by discreteevent on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @05:11AM (#27512872)
Agreed on everything except the road racers. Maybe some want discs but the pros don't. Discs are more likely to rub for them because pro cyclists generate enough power to twist the wheel. If you are trying to gain seconds over a few hours then the sound of rubbing must be torture. Chris Froome spoke out about it recently. Team Ineos just won the Giro and they don't use rim brakes because their sponsor does not oblige them to. It looks like the reason pro racers have discs is because the bike industry makes them. This is so that they can sell new bikes to people who already have a perfectly good one. It makes no sense for pro riders to have disc brakes. Their high end rim brakes are looked after by mechanics, they are lighter, they don't rub, wheel changes are easier and pros don't do a lot of braking anyway.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:24AM (#27515080)
This is something that I think a lot of people at overlooking even they reference pro racing: they ride the bikes their sponsors make them ride. And the sponsors have incentives that are not strictly limited to winning.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by mariusor on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @08:44AM (#27514453)
> and pros don't do a lot of braking anyway.

That's just not true, there's plenty of braking in the mountain stages. I sincerely doubt that going 90-100Km/h into a hairpin is easier with rim brakes.

Ineos had two accidents this season on descents, first with Moscon in the Giro and then with Thomas in Criterium du Dauphine and even if they might have been just flukes, I'm sure the team is asking themselves questions.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:46AM (#27515456)
The industry can sell MTBs and gravel bikes where disc brakes have benefits. And now e-bikes, that's a huge market.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by darkwater on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:48AM (#27512122)
When I was a city rider to commute, pads alignment was a real PITA and the main reason that made me switch to disc brakes. I was always feeling braked and spending more effort than really needed because one pad was touching the rim. With disc brakes that feeling disappeared and never came back, although you still need to do some maintenance from time to time.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:06AM (#27512220)
Heh, yes, less maintenance, but also less finicky.

Brake pads on rim brakes are a nightmare. They follow a 3-d arc as they approach the rim, which is itself a very complicated 3d surface. Ideally the front edge of the brake pad hits slightly before the rear edge, to avoid squeal... but not too much or it will engage too softly. Even minor wear changes the engagement point. Cables need maintenance, they wear, get kinked, require lubrication, and it's easy to get the tension wrong.

It's all a mess, and even when perfect, and it's dry, not too cool, not to hot, not dusty... they still get worse with every use.

On discs it's more like replace the pads when worn (no adjustments, just remove the pin, pull the old pads, push the cyclinders in, put in the new pads, and put the pin back in). Sure there's occasionally a need for replacing brake fluid and/or bleeding. But generally way less maintenance, and you get like 90% of perfect braking all the time instead of 10-90% depending on temp, wetness, ice, grit, state of tune, etc.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by mymythisisthis on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @07:07AM (#27513582)
What about cable over fluid disc brakes for a commute bicycle?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:58AM (#27516444)
I personally think that mountain bikes with slicks make for a great commuting bike. Fast, stable, low maintenance, and shrug off curbs, steps, and potholes. They also tend to be (on average) more upright for better visibility of the road. Also the brakes are available in the up right position, unlike some road bikes. Never know when a car is going to want the piece of road you are on, it's nice to be able to hop onto a curb.

Also MTB's generally accommodate the widest tires, except for fat tire bikes and generally wider tires can be very helpful when commuting for comfort and making things like a random rock or walnut much less exciting when you hit them.

Commuting with rim brakes inevitably destroys the rims, try commuting for 3-5 years then closely inspect your rims, little micro cracks are not uncommon, and will get worse right up until you have a rim failure.

It's also really nice if you do hit something hard enough to knock a wheel out of true, that you still have two working brakes.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rleigh on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @07:49AM (#27513921)
Once you've used hydraulics, you never want to go back to cable. They are so much better on all counts that the tiny weight gain pales into insignificance.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by analog31 on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:29PM (#27510635)
While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable.

Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brake bikes any time soon, but it's interesting to observe how different people experience cycling.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:43AM (#27512079)
I've had top of the line campy brakes, top of the line shimano (dura-ace), and quite a few of the other options.

Do yourself a favor and try out some decent hydraulic brakes. Now only are they pretty amazing, but amazingly consistent. Even in rain, heat, cold, etc. Also it's MUCH rarer to have to undo a brake, just because your wheel went out of true.

Try to track your use, going downhill and hit a puddle, do you drag your brakes? Why? Wait till they grip again? I had no idea I had such habits.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by analog31 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:06PM (#27519195)
Yup, definitely. Agreed about wet riding. The weirdest one was coming out of my cold garage into a hot humid day, and the water condensing on my rims. That's why I say I wouldn't get rid of the rim brakes, but appreciate why they might be in decline.

I've tried hydraulics on friends bikes, definitely nicer, but again not enough to motivate me to switch.

That's how it is with all of these improvements. Someone will always have newer, slicker gear than me, but I keep riding. ;-)

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:50PM (#27510747)
Yeah, I guess component quality matters, the condiditions matter, rider style and goals matter. It seems like there are plenty of reasons to prefer disc brakes (especially hydraulic), but plenty of others to prefer rim brakes, depending on all of these factors.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by kohlerm on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:48AM (#27511752)
For pure road bikes rim brakes are ok IMHO only under certain conditions.e.g. no carbon rims and not much dirt and try conditions. These are not the conditions you will find off-road. Also the difference in wet conditions is IMHo still night and day.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:45AM (#27512094)
Heh, have you ridden on road? I find it at least as dirty as offroad. If anything more grit in the winter, any moisture and everything (bike, shoes, legs, socks, etc).

Roads are far from clean, and if anything the debris is more abrasive than you'll find off road. I'd rather have normal dirt than tire and disc dust you'll find on the road.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ambentzen on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @08:24AM (#27514236)
While in absolute terms rim brakes are probably just as good as disc brakes. The difference lies in the feeling and modulation of the forces.

Also, the disc is a consumable on both types. I have worn down rims to the point where I was scared to use the wheels.

The initial setup can be a bit annoying with hydro discs, but it's a tradeoff I'm happy with.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sam_lowry_ on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:19PM (#27509056)
Ha! I only figured it out after buying Kona Rove NRB, which is not even an entry-level bike, but it turned out to have disk brakes and extremely fragile paintwork.

It served me well, but I am still somewhat cautious when descending since then.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sirstan on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:09AM (#27511538)
I’m glad to see another Rove owner mention the paint. I swear wiping sweat off the top tube scrapes through the paint.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sam_lowry_ on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:19AM (#27513258)
Mechanical disk brakes, I mean.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pharmakom on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:27AM (#27511969)
Rim brakes cannot fit around a wide tyre. Mechanical disc brakes with good pads (this is key, swap them out if necessary) are much more powerful than road rim brakes.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by lmm on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:34PM (#27510665)
Cable-pull disc brakes are still a huge improvement over rim brakes in the ways that matter, especially in the wet.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by sliken on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @03:12AM (#27512248)
Depends. Many make pretty ugly compromises. Poor pads, not much leverage, and even being single sided which often drags and requires the disc to bend for good braking.

So cable-pull disc vs rim brakes is less clear, more susceptible to case by case differences.

However hydraulic discs are always (AFAIK), double sided, and almost always better than even the highest end rim brakes.

Not to mention who wants to destroy their nice rims by dragging brakes on them, leading to relatively short lives as the rim walls get ever thinner, right up till they start cracking. I'd rather replace a disc than a rim after 5-10k miles.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by nxpnsv on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:44AM (#27512737)
Ditching my hardtail mtb for a gravel bike was life changing. I was mostly riding gravel paths anyway, combining roads and gravel my range increased a lot, and commutes are much more fun. In retrospect, it could be that the 4x more expensive gravel bike just is a better bike :)
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jaypeg25 on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:34PM (#27507939)
I bought a Specialized Diverge over a year ago. It was mostly to commute to and from work, but also to have the ability to take gravel paths and trails on the weekends. It's been awesome but friends have suggested I take off the stock tires and add some new ones. Is it really worth it? The tires are already fairly fat already, at least compared to road bike tires.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by haswell on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:38PM (#27507989)
The Diverge was on my shortlist when I got the Topstone. At the time (2019), I think the Diverge defaulted to skinnier smoother tires. Can’t remember which tires specifically.

The Topstone shipped with some pretty knobby WTBs that definitely had an impact on rolling resistance. If your tires are knobby/optimized for off-road, putting a slicker tire (the GK slicks are quite popular for good reason), I suspect you’ll notice quite a difference, but I’d look more at the knobbiness than the fatness if you’re considering a change.

Also worth noting that some knobby tires have a hard line down the middle that keeps resistance minimal until you start to turn, at which point you hit the high traction portion of the tire. Takeaway: even if it looks knobby, it might not be as slow as it looks.

32mm+ is already getting into “fat” territory for a road bike, and for me personally, 38mm seems to be my sweet spot.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jaypeg25 on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:59PM (#27508232)
They came with 35mm "roadsport flak jacket" https://www.specialized.com/us/en/roadsport/p/155765?color=2....

They're pretty smooth overall, perhaps why I never really had an issue commuting with them, but I'm always looking to go faster!

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by haswell on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:52PM (#27508783)
Found the details - I went from 40mm WTB Nanos [0] to these 38mm GravelKing Slicks [1]. If you look at the product pages, the difference is pretty striking. I don't know much about the RoadSports, but at least when it comes to "slick-ness", it looks like you're already starting from a slicker baseline than I was.

- [0] https://www.wtb.com/products/nano-40c

- [1] https://www.panaracerusa.com/products/gravelking-slick-foldi...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by petre on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:49AM (#27516317)
You could try Gravelking slicks which are fast and still grippy or Conti GP5000s which are very fast.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ehnto on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:14AM (#27511216)
I have enjoyed the WTB Trailblazers as they are knobby enough to run singletrack but have a solid centerline for touring longevity and better rolling resistance. You just have to adjust the tire pressure according to what you're predominantly doing that day. Commutting I run them at 35-45psi and on the trail I run them at 18-22psi no worries.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:06PM (#27510258)
I think tires affect the ride quality and comfort and speed more than any other easy to replace component. Even if you don't go any wider, the supple tires from Rene Herse really blew me away. I think it's worth it, or just waint until you have to replace the tires anyways.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by acdha on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:52PM (#27508159)
If they’re causing you problems, consider replacing them. Otherwise I’d just wait until you get a flat — no point in spending money on something which isn’t a problem. You’re commuting so you’re reliably putting on mileage without [presumably] getting in to dodgy situations or trying to shave every second or gram off.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by plorkyeran on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:38PM (#27507995)
The Pathfinder tires that come stock on recent Diverges are pretty widely regarded as not just the worst part of the bike, but a sort of bafflingly bad choice because they aren't even cheap. If you're looking to spend some money upgrading your bike, they're a good place to start.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by house9-2 on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:32PM (#27509178)
I've got about 500 miles on my Diverge (and the Pathfinders) the tires ride great.

- Good on the road, even cornering is decent which was unexpected with light tread.

- Great on gravel: flat, uphill, downhill, and cornering

- Decent on single track

I think maybe they get a bad rap because they are on the heavy side for the price? When the time comes for new tires not sure if I will get another pair or try out something different.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pharmakom on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:29AM (#27511976)
Really? Loads of Unbound Gravel finishers were on Pathfinders.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by hypnoscripto on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:06PM (#27510839)
Is that different from a "hybrid" bike?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by antisthenes on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @11:22PM (#27524540)
It isn't.

Gravel bike is just a new marketing term.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by gorgoiler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:56AM (#27511795)
Gravel bikes are more sporty. They come with drop bars and geometry to complement that riding position, and will weigh much less than an upright hybrid.

You’ll also find gears to accommodate more speeds and inclines, typically a single chainring with an 11 speed lightweight derailleur vs 3 to 9 speed heavyweight (but clean and easy maintenance) hub gears.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jbluepolarbear on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @10:44AM (#27516236)
I use to live in Boulder CO and I would see a lot of people riding the fat tire bikes because they go over poor roads easy. Even see a bunch of people use them in the winter.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pmontra on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:37PM (#27509220)
Anecdotally my gravel bike is faster with 28 mm slick tires than with 42 mm sawtooth tires. Of course sawtooth vs slick makes a difference in friction. The hubs in the wheels could make a difference too. I use the 28 mm wheels when I go on asphalt roads in the mountains because I don't want the extra weight and friction. 42 mm for everything else.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by haswell on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:05PM (#27509916)
> Anecdotally my gravel bike is faster with 28 mm slick tires than with 42 mm sawtooth tires.

Out of curiosity, do you know this to be true, or believe this to be true? I ask because the perception of speed with skinnier tires is one of the things the article touches on.

I felt similarly when I put GP5000 28mm slicks on the gravel bike, but when I looked at my ride history, I couldn’t really back that feeling of speed up with actual data, and evidence shows that at least in my case, there was no major difference between 28mm and 38mm.

(Not saying this is the case for you, but I’m just curious).

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by ptmcc on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:59PM (#27510216)
My experience is the same as yours.

When I rode the same regular routes on my gravel bike on slick 38s vs my road bike on slick 25s (up from 23s, as big as I could fit!), the road bike felt faster but GPS data didn't really back it up over the course of a whole ride.

The road bike is a bit more nimble with twitchier handling sure, but the more jarring ride of the skinny tires gives the illusion of speed. But in the real, non-racing world the data tells a different story. At the limit I have no doubt the road bike is ultimately faster, but that's not most of my riding.

I'm not a racer but am an avid and reasonably fit recreational rider, so I ditched the road bike entirely and enjoy my more comfortable and practical gravel bike, with minimal speed penalty. Plus I can ride on dirt roads and broken pavement with ease and comfort, to boot.

I think most riders are better served by gravel/endurance bikes than pure road bikes.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by 8note on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @06:10PM (#27522184)
You also want to measure the amount of power you're inputting.

Could be the same speed, but you need to peddle harder to maintain it

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pmontra on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @11:40PM (#27535932)
I don't usually do the same routes with gravel and road tires so it's difficult to have hard data to back my claim. The only one I have is 1h 59m vs 1h 56m on a flat fully paved route. So not a big improvement, 2.5%?

However the bike feels lighter with road tires. At low speed I accelerate faster and I can keep a higher speed for a longer time. The 42 mm tires have a shallow sawtooth tread so they can't be as fast as the slick 28 mm ones.

And the bike is really lighter with road tires. One 42 mm tire is 600 grams, plus a larger tube. I don't remember the weight of the 28 mm tire, but it's less and the tube is smaller.

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by whakim on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:31AM (#27511317)
You're definitely faster with the GP5000s and it's not just an illusion. The GP5000 is an extremely fast tire - some of the lowest rolling resistance out there as measured scientifically [1]. Even the fastest 38mm tires are probably going to cost you minimum 10 watts per tire over the GP5000; perhaps even double that.

[1] https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/c...

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by kohlerm on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:03AM (#27511833)
They test AFAIK under ideal smooth road conditions asconfirmed by the picture. On bumpy roads the 10 watts advantage might quickly disappear
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by whakim on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:32AM (#27511997)
10 watts per tire is an absolutely enormous amount given that the rolling resistance of the tire itself is only 10 watts in total. The BRR test also claims that "the drum is covered with diamond plate to simulate an average road" - it isn't completely smooth [1]. If you're riding on roads that are so bumpy that you really need super low pressures (e.g. significantly lower than the 60psi you can run on a 28mm GP5000) then rolling resistance isn't a high priority. But honestly very few actual roads are that bad.

[1] https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:03PM (#27510238)
Another big difference is simply the quality of the tire. A supple 48mm knobby could be faster than a stiff slick (and we know the width doesn't matter). The Rene Herse Oracle Ridge knobbies are 48mm, quite supple and corner well on the road, plus they are noise cancelling!
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by pharmakom on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:31AM (#27511990)
Width matters for air resistance. I can hear the air coming off my 2.1 inch tyres. Rene Herse knob bikes are still pretty loud in my experience!
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jmilloy on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @09:19AM (#27514988)
Yeah, in the mid 40mm range I don't think the air resistance matters, but up above 50, you're starting to make tradeoffs.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by thisisnico on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:14PM (#27507705)
My bike is the best for the city.. got a Specialized Tri-Cross with 32mm tires.. can do everything and handle our horrible roads.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jamil7 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:18AM (#27512606)
This, plus my group and solo rides are now mostly on forest paths, single track and dirt paths, away from traffic and cars and the stress that brings. The riding is slower but more enjoyable and technical than road riding for me. It seems to wear me out quicker though, I think because of so much vibration and stabilizing of the bike.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by vishnugupta on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:10AM (#27511868)
In this part of the world they are called "hybrid" bikes[1]. Fast and sleek enough for regular city commute and rugged enough for occasional off-road cycling.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLwm_SOzaI

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by tomgp on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:47AM (#27512105)
hybrid bikes are a bit different from gravel bikes. the latter tend to have drop bars, more mountain bike-ish gearing and a more road bike like sitting position compare: kona dew (a pretty traditional hybrid) https://www.konaworld.com/dew.cfm kona rove (firmly in the gravel/ adventure category) https://www.konaworld.com/rove_dl.cfm
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by CalChris on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:33PM (#27507927)
Slicks themselves are under-appreciated.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by skeeter2020 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @12:41AM (#27511363)
The geo is actually quite a bit more relaxed than your typical racing bike, which is why I like gravel grinders (at 6'5" and 40+ years old). It's definitely a nicer ride than your typical road tire but not sure I'd go as far as comfy/soft...
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by shrimpx on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:57PM (#27508212)
I used to ride thin-tire road bikes but a year ago I bought a Mercier Kilo WT (WT is for "wide tire") which is a light road frame with a fork that allows beefy gravel tires. I don't think I'll go back to thin-tire road bikes.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by alistairSH on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:14PM (#27509012)
Dont tell my wife. She’ll want me to sell 3-4 of my bikes! ;)
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by germinalphrase on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:25PM (#27509125)
Rumor has it that a very prominent British Tour de France competitor rides a re-badged/stealth gravel bike because he finds it more comfortable.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by gield on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @02:38AM (#27512042)
Gravel bikes are easy to distinguish from race bikes, even when rebadged. If it was true, many fans and commentators would have noticed already.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by tomglynch on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:12PM (#27509942)
I'm a bit hesitant to believe this. Can we have some more details?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by jasonvorhe on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:55PM (#27509390)
Who is that rider?
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by dheera on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:02PM (#27509461)
TFA: "suspension losses"

Who the hell uses suspension on a road bike, or are they talking about something else?

Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by alisonkisk on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:07PM (#27509504)
They are talking about vibrations in the wheels, not a big ol suspension fork like on a mountain bike.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by hellisothers on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:51PM (#27510754)
Amen, 50mm on my Diverge.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by rorykoehler on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @01:18AM (#27511594)
The geometry of gravel bikes is much closer to 90s cross country mountain bikes than modern road bikes.
Re:Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower by nchi3 on Tuesday June 15, 2021 @04:50AM (#27512766)
That's not really true. Gravel bikes have geometries ranging from aero race bike geometriea to hardtail MTBs. I'd say most have very similar geometries to endurance road bikes though (similar stack/reach, 71ish HT angle, 425-430mm chainstays)