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Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by obviouslynotme on Saturday May 01, 2021 @04:57PM (#27009718)
I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.

I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Hammershaft on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:38PM (#27010106)
Its interesting that we have created a world where the people who build software are often the most skeptical of and aviodant of the software industry.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by kovac on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:04AM (#27013549)
I was thinking the same too. Even for myself, I just own a laptop and a smart phone. If I could get rid of the phone I would.

No smart watches, home automation devices, wearable fitness devices, none. I've used some of them at one point or another and in hindsight, while they did bring some benefit (mostly convenience), I found their privacy, financial, environmental costs to be just too high to justify the marginal benefits.

Give me a minimal Linux machine and the vibrant Linux community where we fix each others' issues and I'm a happy engineer and a human being :)

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by bsenftner on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:56AM (#27014033)
Phones have become our ever present little snitch that tells the overlords every physical place you go, every place you surf, everyone you call, and the ambient conversations it picks up from people speaking near it. How we got here is called convenience, and the overlords know how to work that angle endlessly.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by spicybright on Sunday May 02, 2021 @02:59PM (#27017870)
You can't deny the utility of a modern phone is high despite this.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by MrMember on Saturday May 01, 2021 @06:13PM (#27010360)
I feel like a luddite sometimes. I want to limit as much as possible how many devices I own that have access to the internet. My computer(s), HTPC, phone, game consoles, and that's it. There's no reason anything else ever needs internet access.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by coldtea on Saturday May 01, 2021 @08:46PM (#27011332)
>I feel like a luddite sometimes.

Luddites were right in their own way: their point was not against technology in abstract, but about the destruction it brought to their line of work with no alternative offered.

But, Luddites aside, being enthusiastic for any application of technology is a sign of the idiot consumer or the naive futurist.

The actual technologist knows that some tools are good for X and not for Y use cases, and also knows when to cut down technology (as opposed to add for the sake of it).

(Same way we don't add features to our programs for the sake of it, and many features are put there by demand of the marketing team to get more money out of users, not to give them something better).

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by glogla on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:38AM (#27013417)
Many of the Luddites were successful craftsmen.

The way I would frame it is that the Luddites weren't against the technology and automation, they were against the how the gains from that increased productivity were share - with 100 % going to the owners and none going to the workers.

The reason why people think of them as of "dumb people breaking the machines" is because history is written by the victors.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by cyanydeez on Sunday May 02, 2021 @09:45PM (#27020821)
i have a darker assumption: people like using software to exploit problem X, but they dont like the idea that they are problem Y needing to be exploited.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by bozzcl on Saturday May 01, 2021 @06:42PM (#27010554)
You’re far from alone. I recently outright blocked all DNS traffic, including known DoH providers, on my network firewall for all my devices except my Pi-Hole.

Then, I blocklisted all Google and Facebook domains on my Pi-Hole… except for YouTube’s content servers so I can use Invidious.

In fact, I might follow your example and add an outbound allowlist to my firewall. Seems like the next logical step.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by MrDresden on Saturday May 01, 2021 @06:45PM (#27010572)
It is because we know how the sausage is made.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by maybelsyrup on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:52AM (#27012461)
I keep waiting for someone to write a book about how often this is the case in different industries, areas of expertise, etc. It's a variation on the George Bernard Shaw thing: "every profession is a conspiracy against the laity".

In my own profession I'm extremely wary of my peers and the services they provide for the simple fact that I know how much and how often things can go wrong, and when I've needed those services myself, it takes me a very long time to vet people.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by mastax on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:40PM (#27018803)
"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." - Adam Smith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oun5gvDAU&t=324s

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by mandeepj on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:24PM (#27012116)
> skeptical of and aviodant of the software industry

Not really. And, Not everyone have good intentions.

Risk analysis is part of software development. And, we know where it lands once corrupt forces will take over.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by mk89 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:59AM (#27013798)
Because we know how something can be abused until there is another way to abuse it. It's an endless way to abuse it, where a PM with an even more cynical goal will introduce an even more disgusting way to monetize a product. Finally, it's to save money on production costs and make even more money. All this thanks to software scalability, pluggability, etc etc. All you need is finally the idea, and if you have a crazy idea backed up by a graph that shows you can make 20% of profit more, that's it, done.

Eventually people get used to it. That's the main selling point, always. We are commoditizing literally everything, it's happening under our nose and we just let it happen. Until finally alternatives come and we need to pay double to have something we used to have 20 years ago (conceptually speaking, not technically) for a normal/cheaper price.

Can we boycot this? Yes, by buying products whose pricing model is old and outdated. And that's typically not the shiny one...

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by pydry on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:30AM (#27013940)
There will also always be a horde of developers who mistake normal users' lack of understanding for what's going on and an inability to see the direction this is taking us in with consent or even enthusiastic assent.

Paraphrasing upton sinclair: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his stock options vesting depends on his not understanding it.

See also: privacy, right to repair, app stores with 30% markups on in-app transactions, intrusive advertising, the death of journalism, internet connected lightbulbs, bitcoin CO2 emissions, electronic voting, etc.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by rorykoehler on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:29AM (#27013352)
I don't think that is the issue. if you ever start a startup the first thing an investor will ask is what problem you are solving. Connected cars, fridges etc aren't solving any problem I have. I don't even use the inbuilt maps etc on my car. The phone is a much better device for that in every way.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by bregma on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:07AM (#27014546)
I work on the foundations of automotive software. I live in a low-tech cabin in the woods and drive a older minimal-tech car. Enough said.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by ergot_vacation on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:15PM (#27016926)
Most large industries are short-term profit-driven, to the detriment or exclusion of all else. The goal thus isn't to provide the best service or product, but to discover the best way to exploit the "customer" (the real customers are whoever owns the company.) Thus, this is probably true in many fields, not just software. People work hard to acquire skill in a field they care about and believe in, and are rewarded by a whole career of using that skill to make sub-standard or even dangerous products because that's what makes their employers the most money.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by pjmlp on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:49AM (#27013163)
Because we know how the sausage is made and the shortcuts taken to deliver it.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by McSwag on Monday May 03, 2021 @02:22AM (#27022199)
Building software pays my bills. Also, we know what makes the secret sauce (or doesn’t). Skepticism is warranted.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jhanschoo on Saturday May 01, 2021 @09:10PM (#27011469)
I don't think that's absurd as it seems; e.g. a craftsman would avoid IKEA if they could help it.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by rdtwo on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:49AM (#27015760)
Ikea is actually not bad. Their materials are cheap but the designs are decent for the price. Compared to comparable items from target or Walmart you typically get a better product. Obviously you aren’t going to get a finely created product out of high end material but in the bottom tier price range they are the best. You would have to pay 2-3x as much to get a minor step up in quality.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Traster on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:31PM (#27010040)
The problem is that you're not going to have this choice. You'll be that guy insisting he wants a phone that's thicker but has better battery life - no manufacturer cares what you want because they have to operate at a scale where they can't cater for niches.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by BiteCode_dev on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:40PM (#27010126)
I'm not so sure.

Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right.

The car market seems way different than the phone market. It's not an information platform, it moves matter. It's not virtual, it's real. It's not luxury like the phone used to be, people life depends on it already. It's not a free market, but heavily regulated.

And a car is very, very expensive. Second hand is a huge thing. You don't replace your car every 2 years. The market for maintenance and service is it's own industry, and the state is deep in it. Not to mention the the huge quantity of material you need just to build one car.

Finally, if a car fails, a BSOD becomes quite literal.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by AmericanChopper on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:35PM (#27012167)
> Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right.

These aren’t really great examples of marketing to a niche. Automatic transmissions cost more money, so manuals are more popular than they are in the US in every country that has less disposable income than the US. The primary reason it’s so easy to get a left hand drive car in Australia is because the UK and Japan drive on the left.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by fomine3 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:35AM (#27013390)
> in every country that has less disposable income than the US

So you argue almost all country prefer manuals? It's not true at least in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by AmericanChopper on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:59AM (#27013520)
I’m saying it’s quite strongly correlated. From memory the difference in price was a few thousand dollars between manual and automatic. For some consumers that price difference is enough to override other preferences. Some markets have more of those consumers than others, to the extent that an automatic car would be a somewhat uncommon luxury item in a lot of places.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by dmortin on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:08AM (#27012510)
> Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere

Automatic is more expensive. If they had the same price tag then most people would buy automatic in Europe too, because it's more convenient.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by BiteCode_dev on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:11AM (#27012991)
If that were the case, you would see most high end cars in France with automatic transmission. It's not the case here. People are quite attached to their manual gear.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by fogihujy on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:26AM (#27013039)
Automatic transmission is also seen as more boring, and while professional drivers can get away with using them many people consider you a lesser driver if you don't drive manual.

For the record, I just had a look at the local second-hand market; cars with automatic transmission are cheaper and more available, while the demand for cars with manual transmission is higher.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by alibarber on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:43AM (#27013125)
Interesting - I (British, living in another country in Europe) have just bought a new automatic car, but if I were buying used I would most likely only buy manual because the maintenance and replacement parts for an auto will likely cost much more, and a used car would more likely need these sooner - and be less likely to be covered by any warranty.

These are of course my perceptions; maybe they're correct, maybe not, but I do think it's a common way of thinking.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by dmortin on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:09AM (#27013248)
Obviuosly, some people prefer that (and I guess high end car users like going fast and doing the switching up manually), but others don't. Most people who use their cars mostly in the city where the traffic is often slow, you drive in stop-and-go traffic would prefer automatic to constantly switching up and down.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by motiejus on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:58AM (#27013513)
I am one of them.

I can still start my engine if the battery is dead.

When I rent cars in Europe, I usually get 50/50 manual/automatic.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Thlom on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:54AM (#27013182)
Hm, is it true that there’s manual gear every where in Europe? I can remember we laughed at the Americans and their automatic gears 15 years ago, but now everyone drives automatic here as well.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by benhurmarcel on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:01AM (#27014504)
Yes the vast majority of cars in Europe are manual, except maybe in the high-end where there are more and more semi-automatics (not the mechanical automatics).
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by throwaway0a5e on Saturday May 01, 2021 @07:26PM (#27010891)
>Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere.

Because "screw the fuel economy I shift when I want" is the only way to have a decent driving experience when you have 1L of displacement responsible for 4000lb of vehicle.

>The market for maintenance and service is it's own industry, and the state is deep in it.

It's pretty amazing the stuff the state trainers have to say about what the state thinks about safety emissions. It's a hot take to say the least.

>Finally, if a car fails, a BSOD becomes quite literal.

This is really over blown. Even "the wheel fell off" type mechanical failures result in the vehicle grinding to a halt, usually making it to the side of the road (AI that thinks a pole is an HOV lane notwithstanding)

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by rsj_hn on Saturday May 01, 2021 @07:28PM (#27010899)
I get that the big automakers believe that, and boy are they going to be in for a surprise when the market rejects their plans and foreign/upstart automakers take what little marketshare they have left from the last time they decided they could shove bad products down people's throats. For some reason the automakers lack good product people, and are constantly trying to chase rents rather than compete by producing reliable, affordable, good cars that people want to buy.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by amelius on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:05AM (#27014528)
All great technology will eventually suck when the masses start using it.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by dghughes on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:35PM (#27012168)
>If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio...

Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by userbinator on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:22AM (#27012330)
I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.

The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying.

...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by michaelmrose on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:54AM (#27013478)
Motorcycles are legal but if you commute and carry your kids around in them 100% of the time you may be choosing poorly. You moved the goalposts from a good choice to legally allowed.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Laarlf on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:42AM (#27014361)
You can pick old cars which are easy to fix and barely have any software. Old Volvos come to mind. They are also very safe, not just for their age. If safety is a primary concern you might consider something ridiculously massive like an F350. Those vehicles also don't have a lot of Software and with the weight and the size most modern SUVs with sleeping drivers will simply be consumed.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by michaelmrose on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:25PM (#27017009)
Modern cars crumple so that they absorb more of the energy of the collision sacrificing the car's body for your body. Massive vehicles of the antique era had a horrific safety record. People in fact used to believe that collisions at highway speed were unsurvivable by nature. People who imagine that having the heavier more rigid car renders them safer because their car will just go through the other car leaving them safe misunderstand physics and safety.

In the context of current cars classic volves are pretty garbage too. Here is a 90s volvo being absolutely smeared by a renault 10-20 years newer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_H_aZtLl8

See also unsafe at any speed.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Laarlf on Sunday May 02, 2021 @08:35PM (#27020413)
A few months ago i had an accident in a "90s Volvo". A Volvo 850 to be exact. A Toyota Aygo got into my lane on a country road. A car that is 15 years newer in design and is also considerably lighter than the Volvo. It was basically a head on impact at about 70-80 km/h(where 100 is allowed, i braked quite a bit). While i didn't walk away because of the shock, i could. I had no injuries apart from scuff marks and my right leg hurt slightly but the doctors didn't find anything and the pain went away hours after the incident. The Toyota driver was not that well off. Quite a few broken bones and he was totally trapped in the car. After that incident, i surely know what car to purchase. And i did.

I think that video is about the 940 vs the modus from fifth gear. I won't watch the 15 minute video to find a few seconds of crash test buried somewhere. If that is the crash test from Fifth gear: that Volvo 940 had the engine removed. Usually cars who have crashes have engines.

Unsafe at any speed. By Ralph Nader. A guy who wrote a book about the safety of cars while not having a drivers license. The discussion the book started was good, the book itself was not. You cannot really complain about safety features being an option instead of included by default if you don't pick them. And yes, rear wheel drive requires some driving skills to master. If you don't want to learn, get a chauffeur or a car more fit to your skills.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by sz4kerto on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:17PM (#27009922)
> I want it to be like my microwave.

Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by bombela on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:31PM (#27010036)
Yes. Definitively not like my microwave. My microwave has not only the worst interface. But it also lags. The polling rate of the capacitive touche buttons is too low. And any action also takes a second to validate. It's horrendous.

Give me back my late grandma microwave. Two knobs. Nothing more.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by fooblat on Saturday May 01, 2021 @07:10PM (#27010762)
After much research I purchased a Samsung MWF300G[0] a modern microwave with only 2 dials. Used daily for 5 years and I love it.

0. https://www.samsung.com/levant/microwave-ovens/solo/mwf300g-...

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by thraway123412 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:31AM (#27013945)
Does yours beep if you don't open the lid in a minute after it turns off?

Mine does and that is super annoying. Annoying enough that I'm thinking of removing the buzzer or just buying another microwave. I do like the simple dual dial design though.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by kstenerud on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:07AM (#27012508)
I bought an industrial microwave a number of years ago just for this feature: Its controls consist of a single dial: how long to cook for.

Also, in an industrial microwave the magnetron itself rotates, so there's no silly rotating plate business. Just put food in, turn the dial, take food out, and clean up is a snap.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by tdsamardzhiev on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:02AM (#27012254)
I'm willing to go further. My parents' microwave has a single knob, and mine has two but I have never used it at something other than "High".
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by brokenmachine on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @12:10AM (#27033987)
I like to have a single button to start and add 30s and a handle where you just pull to open.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by petters on Sunday May 02, 2021 @04:37AM (#27013408)
Fortunately, those are also the cheapest ones.

For microwaves, my ranking is inversely correlated with price.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by chrischen on Sunday May 02, 2021 @03:10AM (#27012985)
Dang I wish my microwave had good software. All the pre-set modes are crap.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by o-__-o on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:23AM (#27015565)
> . If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio

Every bmw, Mercedes Benz, and every luxury car does this today. Millions of them on the road.

And it doesn’t brick the car, just anything in the path of the unapproved device (which guess where your radio sits)

But this is to avoid fake parts from being installed in your car.. so catch 22?

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jjav on Sunday May 02, 2021 @02:52AM (#27012901)
Same. I will not ever own any car that has network connectivity. So that means older cars only. Oh well. So be it.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jawns on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:33AM (#27013951)
I, on the other hand, look forward to the day, probably not for at least 20-30 years from now, when all or virtually all vehicles are autonomous, and they're all constantly communicating with each other. Could you imagine the improvements in efficiency and traffic management? The vast reduction in accidents because someone forgot to use a turn signal or was following too closely? The marvelous freedom it would offer to the disabled?
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Laarlf on Sunday May 02, 2021 @07:56AM (#27014462)
Do you work with software? Because you don't seem to be scared one bit. I don't see this becoming a thing anytime soon. Not just because of how horrible software is and how little it improves. In the last 20 years we barely had any improvements in what cars assist us with. The Mercedes Benz W220 from 1998 had active cruise control. And today modern active cruise control systems barely work better. Some cars can sometimes change lanes for you. But even that is far from good. I look at how bad lane keep assists (which also have been around for over 10 years) detect roads, especially country roads and i don't feel like we will get anything remotely good from "self driving" cars in the next... MANY years.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jjav on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:12PM (#27019538)
Agreed, I don't believe there will be any such autonomous coordinated cars in many decades. It is a seriously difficult problem for the general case. It's effectively AI and true AI has been just around the corner for many decades but never arrives.

For the happy path of interstates in good weather, sure, that's not too hard.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jawns on Sunday May 02, 2021 @09:38AM (#27015182)
I think the closer we get to the point where all vehicles are autonomous, the easier it will get. The interim is the hard part. Right now autonomous vehicles have to be able to operate alongside human operators whose ability to communicate their intent is limited to brake lights and turn signals, and there is basically no way to cooperate. Now imagine a world where it's all autonomous vehicles who are constantly communicating intent and can cooperate in marvelous ways, like with orderly zipper merging or intersection management without the need for traffic signals. There will still be a need for computer vision to detect pedestrians, obstacles, and wildlife, but it will be simpler than having to deal with other human operators.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by Laarlf on Sunday May 02, 2021 @10:15AM (#27015501)
My issue is that even today "autonomous" vehicles are far from capable of doing what they are supposed to do. The technology is decades old and barely anything happens.

And no, i like driving. I would hate a future where driving would be illegal.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jjav on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:14PM (#27019545)
> I think the closer we get to the point where all vehicles are autonomous, the easier it will get.

The last 5% of anything is the hardest, and on this particular problem it's even harder.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jawns on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:54PM (#27019824)
That's often true when you're talking about a single project with a clearly delineated end state, such as, "Build a responsive website for my coffee shop that works in all major desktop and mobile browsers."

But it's generally not true when you're talking about advances in technology and market dynamics where there are multiple inflection points. If I told you that the products Apple is planning to build over the next 3 years are going to be harder to build than anything it's built in the previous 45, simply because the last 5% of anything is the hardest, you'd probably say, "That's not what I mean!"

I think it's pretty obvious that building autonomous vehicles that can understand human driving behavior without direct communication is harder than building autonomous vehicles that only have to worry about other autonomous vehicles, with which they can communicate in data-rich ways. The fact that the former needs to happen before the latter because of market dynamics doesn't change the fact that it's a harder technological problem.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jacquesm on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:00AM (#27013524)
Your microwave will end up as a subscription platform.

Services grafted on to various appliances and consumer articles are going to be the norm unless we push back. Hard.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jakeva on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:07AM (#27013571)
My microwave will not end up as a subscription platform. Maybe if I have to buy a microwave some day, but I don't know why I would have to do that. My microwave works fine.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jacquesm on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:07AM (#27013830)
Microwaves don't live forever (especially newer ones). At some point the choices will be:

[ ] a connected microwave

and

[ ] no microwave

Just like almost all newer cars now have some kind of wlan connection to the factory built in.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by phs on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:39PM (#27016596)
This twelve inch cast iron skillet, on the other hand, will last forever.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by jacquesm on Sunday May 02, 2021 @02:49PM (#27017770)
Yes, it likely will (unless you drop it, or quench it). But if you're careful with it it will last longer than anybody reading this. But just like car batteries: cast iron skillets rarely die, but lots of them are murdered.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by radioooooo on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:34PM (#27010067)
> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.

LMAO! OK, who's gonna tell him about the ads on the radio?

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by tdsamardzhiev on Sunday May 02, 2021 @12:07AM (#27012275)
Never understood people complaining of radio ads until I got to hear what American radio is like. They legit play ads after almost every song. Yikes!
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by caddywompus on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:37PM (#27010096)
Radio ads can:

- be turned off by turning off the radio - are not inherent to the operation of the vehicle

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by obviouslynotme on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:42PM (#27010139)
Classic radio is down-only. It goes through hardware for demodulation and amplification. I can turn a classic radio off.

How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention? How long until someone uses the radio to ransomware your car using a remote code execution vulnerability?

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by pavel_lishin on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:19AM (#27013888)
> How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention?

When I was in high school, the local radio station played a siren as part of the intro to their traffic update segment. Being a high schooler, I naturally had my volume cranked up pretty high - leading to at least a once-a-week near-swerve on my way to school as the segment began.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by coldtea on Saturday May 01, 2021 @08:48PM (#27011345)
LMAO fail.

Radio is optional as you can switch it off at any time, change the volume, is not imposed by the manufacturer, and you had the option to listen to your own cassetes and later CDs and digital for 50+ years.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by toast0 on Sunday May 02, 2021 @02:13AM (#27012738)
You must not have exprienced modern vehicles. My 2013 Chysler Pacifica's factory headunit occasionally stops kicking the watchdog timer and gets rebooted. When that happens, the radio is still playing and can't be switched off or volume adjusted until the thing is done booting.

So no, you can't switch it off at any time.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by coldtea on Sunday May 02, 2021 @01:49PM (#27017231)
That would be the exception, not the rule with radio (that it would need to be, to justify using it as an example of a driving nuissance as the grandparent did).

And this exception points to the current trend for manufactured control + everything as a platform, so it can be seen as a further argument towards the point we're making here against this trend.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by michaelmrose on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:05AM (#27013556)
This would be an example of where more complicated isn't better. Our car is from 2004 but neither it nor any car I've ever owned has ever had this problem.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by pavel_lishin on Sunday May 02, 2021 @06:20AM (#27013891)
I cannot imagine putting up with this. I would rather mount a bluetooth speaker on the dash.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by michaelmrose on Sunday May 02, 2021 @05:04AM (#27013551)
There are options that don't have ads including satellite radio, and communication via stereo cable or Bluetooth with your phone which can play music via local storage or streamed.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by tshaddox on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:19PM (#27009941)
The microwave analogy is tricky, because those are generally not worth repairing (or even doing routine maintenance to prolong life) and are cheap and reliable enough that you wouldn’t want to pay a subscription for them unless it was a very cheap subscription. I’d love to have that situation for a car, but I don’t think it’s realistic without moving to a subscription model.
Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by lostlogin on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:05PM (#27009798)
> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.

I know it’s what you want but is it preventable? What’s the difference when today there are LED screens across the intersection you are trying to navigate that are intensely bright and displaying moving images? I’d argue that dimmer images in the car would be less distracting. However we appear on track to get both these dismal options. I won’t be buying a car with build in advertising, but given the frequency I change cars, this isn’t really any change.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by obviouslynotme on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:20PM (#27009946)
It has nothing to do with flashing images, which I do not tolerate in my car either. It has to do with ads themselves, which have always walked the line between interactivity and malware. I don't want someone to be able to run arbitrary code on my car for $0.0004. No way.

Could you imagine ransomware on your CAR? While you are driving in it?? No thank you.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by BiteCode_dev on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:43PM (#27010149)
Cars should not be connected to internet, period. If you want some component to be able to be part of the car and connected, it should be hardware that is physically not linked to the car system itself in any way.

And you should not be able to issue OTA without some manual hardware operation, like turning a key somewhere that is far from the wheel.

Re:Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions a... by fridif on Saturday May 01, 2021 @05:15PM (#27009897)
Yes, it is preventable if you buy a car that doesn't have it inside of it.

As long as companies (or people) are allowed/able to make cars without ads in them, then it will be possible.

If the government mandates, or market conditions dictate (due to monopolies or insufficient demand/profit incentive), that ads will be in cars, then it will not be possible, at least for new cars.