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Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:40AM (#25848512)
> Loeb, though, explicitly rejects the Sagan standard—“It is not obvious to me why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” he observes—and flips its logic on its head: “Extraordinary conservatism keeps us extraordinarily ignorant.” So long as there’s a chance that 1I/2017 U1 is an alien probe, we’d be fools not to pursue the idea. “If we acknowledge that ‘Oumuamua is plausibly of extraterrestrial-technology origin,” he writes, “whole new vistas of exploration for evidence and discovery open before us.”

Uh... this isn't at all clear to me. I don't think very many people are saying it is impossible that Oumuamua was an alien construct and actively discouraging science based on the idea it could be, its just that it is a pretty big fallacy to say "we don't understand it, therefore it was aliens". Recall that the scientific community has gotten its hopes up about aliens several times in the past with scientist proffering alien explanations for "canals" on mars, pulsars, GRBs, and FRBs to name a few.

If we assume that Oumuamua is an alien construct, what "new vistas of exploration for evidence and discovery" open up that we are not already pursuing?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:50AM (#25848648)
> I don't think very many people are saying it is impossible that Oumuamua was an alien construct and actively discouraging science based on the idea it could be.

Actually yes. You'll be laughed out of the virtual room, not get funding, and potentially damage your career.

As he points out in his interview with Lex (linked elsewhere in the comments here) is fine to propose a multi billion dollar experiment to detect oxygen on exoplanets, which is not conclusive evidence of life, but to search for industrial pollution is a non starter for exactly this reason. But that would yield much more interesting results (both for negative and positive results.)

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by bostonsre on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:56AM (#25848743)
Ridiculing scientists for plausible hypothesis seems very unscientific.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:45PM (#25849409)
This is very common in science. New theories are usually rejected and ridiculed until/if they develop enough evidence behind them to sway people.

Some careers are destroyed. Some scientists are only vindicated posthumously. The process can take many decades.

Scientists, like most humans, are not that open-minded and are subject to the same group-think blind spots. I think if we could get better at being open-minded as a species, we'd make faster progress and better ideas would win out more often. This is as much true in society at large, or business, as it is in science.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:23PM (#25849933)
And they are careerist...

My Post-doc colleague during my PhD@MIT was explaining this trick he does to get his system working that he never publishes (one very small step of 100 steps). He was concerned that if he published the step, it would hurt his chances at getting a professorship.

It’s exactly the same logic behind why code is not published.

Because ethically you can ‘hand wave it away’ as obvious to other experts and not worth publishing.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by benibela on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:49PM (#25851795)
How can you be a post-doc without publishing?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by galkk on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:58PM (#25851906)
I think what was meant could be described by a joke: "professor writes a theorem proof on 6 pages, removes pages 3 and 4 and writes 'trivially leads to'"
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by remexre on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:58PM (#25851905)
I read that as, one step of his experimental procedure isn't published.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by xattt on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:59PM (#25849586)
The most recent event that comes to my mind is the lead up to the discovery of H. pylori causing gastric ulcers.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:14PM (#25849817)
Yeah that's a good one.

Another is recommending trans-fat based margarine over butter. That was counter-productive health advice that took decades to reverse - even although the evidence it was based on was extremely flimsy.

Once the group-think machine gets going in a direction, it has a tremendous amount of inertia.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by logicchains on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:16PM (#25854527)
>That was counter-productive health advice that took decades to reverse - even although the evidence it was based on was extremely flimsy.

I think this was more a case of lobbying by certain agricultural producers than ignorance. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14823257_Food_Lobbi...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#25859945)
True, but the point still stands: a lot of people can be influenced by something no matter its origins. Once they can say "X thousand can't be wrong" then you and your pesky idea backed up by facts and evidence can go to hell.

Sadly history is full of such occurrences.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eth0up on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:49PM (#25850276)
Append Ignaz Semmelweis to this important list, which is a plump one.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sterlind on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:12PM (#25849787)
Tectonic plates was another big one.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by treeman79 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:43PM (#25851004)
Peoples position on that one shifted very slowly.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:10PM (#25852038)
sir, may I see your dad license please?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ryandrake on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:45PM (#25854319)
It’s not his fault that the joke was dad-worthy.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by dboreham on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#25853611)
But when they did shift, it was a...
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:24PM (#25849958)
This is a current fun topic with some controversy related to tectonic plates: do solar flares cause earthquakes?

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/07/powerful-eruptions-on-the...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Enginerrrd on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:43PM (#25851726)
Despite being a really stupid-sounding premise, that is actually kind of interesting.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by hntrader on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:28PM (#25852237)
Another: Many World's Interpretation of QM. Not known to be true but less ridiculed and more widely subscribed.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by astrange on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:32AM (#25856755)
The inventor of the COVID mRNA vaccine was fired from her tenure position because UPenn thought the idea wouldn't work.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/mrna-coronavirus-vaccine-pfi...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:28PM (#25850020)
It's not just science, I can think of an example from pure mathematics. Cantor's work showing the uncountability of the real numbers was derided by prominent members of the mathematical community for decades. This despite the fact that he was able to boil down his argument into a proof so simple it's taught in introductory undergraduate classes. Now, this was at a time when mathematicians were still trying to rigorously define set theory and ground mathematics on a foundation of logic, but still it's a relatively simple and understandable proof. I think the moral of the story is that people are stubborn and are capable of disagreeing about just about everything.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by resource0x on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:32PM (#25852284)
Bad example. Cantor's theory is controversial to this day.

"Classical logic was abstracted from the mathematics of finite sets and their subsets …. Forgetful of this limited origin, one afterwards mistook that logic for something above and prior to all mathematics, and finally applied it, without justification, to the mathematics of infinite sets. This is the Fall and original sin of Cantor's set theory."

-- Hermann Weyl

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:37PM (#25853362)
I wouldn't really consider Weyl as an example of a modern day critic, considering he died in 1955. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern mathematician that rejects the diagonalization argument, outside of finitists, which are pretty far from the mainstream. I mean the proof that there is no bijection from a set to its power set is pretty straightforward and constructive. I'm pretty sure the proof is valid even in intuitionist logic.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by cambalache on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:46PM (#25855511)
By whom? Almost all mainstream mathematicians rightfully lionize Cantor's main contributions, as David Hilbert so eloquently put it: "No one shall expel us from the paradise Cantor has created for us" Aus dem Paradies, das Cantor uns geschaffen, soll uns niemand vertreiben können
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by alisonkisk on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:27PM (#25853281)
Cantor proved that R, the set of all reals, cannot be countable. That was never controversial. What's controversial is claiming that R (or any uncountable set) exists, as no one has rigorously proved without adding an axiom.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:07PM (#25853616)
What axiom do you have to add, are you talking about the axiom of infinity, defining the set of natural numbers? Because you do need that, but without that wouldn't even be able to define uncountability. After that, you can define the reals using Dedekind cuts or Cauchy sequences, which was known at the time (I believe Cantor actually worked on the Cauchy sequence construction). But there's an even simpler uncountable set: the power set of the natural numbers. Super easy to define, and the diagonalization argument falls right out.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:45AM (#25856516)
To construct R you need to repeat Dedekind cut uncountable number of times, i.e. you need to iterate over all real numbers, which would make them countable.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:09AM (#25859571)
You don't need any sort of "repetition" of Dedekind cuts to construct the real numbers, it's actually fairly straightforward. The set of all Dedekind cuts is a subset of the power set of rational numbers (i.e. each Dedekind cut is a set of rational numbers) satisfying the following properties: for each Dedekind cut A

1. A is not the empty set

2. A is not the set of all rational numbers

3. A is closed downwards, meaning if x is in A and y < x, then y is in A

4. A has no greatest element, meaning for all x in A, there is a y in A such that y > x.

And each Dedekind cut is in one-to-one correspondence with a real number. You can define the usual arithmetic operations on them, show that every rational number has a corresponding Dedekind cut (for any rational q, we have {x in Q | y < q } as the corresponding cut). I haven't seen a proof of the uncountability of Dedekind cuts using the diagonalization argument, but you can prove there is a one-to-one correspondence between Dedekind cuts and Cauchy sequences of rational numbers, which is another construction of the reals. And there is a fairly straightforward proof that those are uncountable using diagonalization.

But as you can see, you don't need any sort of repetition to do the construction, it's just a set of sets of rational numbers satisfying a few simple properties. For more information, check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbe...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:38PM (#25864642)
So you just assume that the set exists.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:23PM (#25867054)
Well I assume the set of natural numbers exist, by the axiom of infinity. From there you can construct the set of rationals. And you can construct the power set of the set of rationals, by the axiom of the power set. And the set of all Dedekind cuts is a subset of the power set of rationals satisfying those properties listed above, which we can construct by the axiom schema of separation. All of this is Zermelo-Frankel set theory, don't even need the axiom of choice.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by itronitron on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:59PM (#25850416)
Bretz defended his theories, and this kicked off an acrimonious 40-year debate over the origin of the Scablands. Both Pardee and Bretz continued their research over the next 30 years, collecting and analyzing evidence that led them to identify Lake Missoula as the source of the Spokane flood and creator of the channeled scablands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

Also Plate Tectonics...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_development_of...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by userulluipeste on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:17PM (#25853701)
On one hand, this is because it's such a safe thing to cause damage to the image of another fellow scientist that happens to dare looking at something new or in a new way. (Crab mentality, perhaps?) If this effect would be as costly to the individual attacker as it is for the collective, we would probably "move fast and break things" more. On the other hand, we already have way too many non peer-reviewed papers as it is, and those papers get cited by other papers, and so on. Not enough action to ensure quality. In such case, what the critiques with good intentions for the world but with limited time and attention are to do but go after the most audacious claims in their field?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ntsplnkv2 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:29PM (#25852824)
This is a good thing. If we entertained every crackpot theory we would waste tons of time. it's good for there to be some gatekeeping. Of course sometimes they're wrong - but so what? That will come out if there is actual evidence.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:59PM (#25853544)
There is a balance here, you are correct, but I think we currently skew too far toward gatekeeping.

Too little gatekeeping means trouble finding the signal through the noise and time wasted on dead ends. Too much and good ideas get neglected or squashed for far too long. There is a cost to both.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by totalZero on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:21PM (#25854957)
Unfortunately, gatekeeping is essential to academia. Ask anyone who wants to publish a finding independently, or read a paper for free without being associated with an institution. Heck, ask the undergrads who paid tens of thousands of dollars for Zoom classes that have MOOC alternatives alternatives.

> Too little gatekeeping means trouble finding the signal through the noise and time wasted on dead ends.

Much time is supposed to be spent on dead ends anyway. That's the way the corpus matures, not to mention an inevitable result of peer review (no need to review anything if all the research product is perfect). Research is a search; imagine running BFS without expecting to encounter dead ends.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by emmelaich on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:11PM (#25854114)
There's another aspect - with strong gatekeeping it is assumed that those theories that make it through are true.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:27PM (#25865347)
Not really, they often are simply in tune and in agreement with the currently established group-think.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by shvn on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:01AM (#25855974)
> I think if we could get better at being open-minded as a species, we'd make faster progress and better ideas would win out more often.

Given the current scenario we are certainly not sure if we are ever going to achieve it! Though that achievement can work wonders. Any thoughts how you see that change can be made possible?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eevilspock on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:21PM (#25851460)
Time to break out Thomas Kuhn.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Joeri on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:08PM (#25852639)
Ah, but my sister always says I’m not open-minded because I won’t read all her antivaxer info. If we give all ideas equal credence, better ideas will not win out.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#25853607)
I'm not suggesting that being open minded requires giving all ideas equal credence, that's a strawman. Just that us humans tend to have strongly held opinions that are wrong far too often - like your sister in this case. If she was more open minded about her own beliefs that would be beneficial.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by anamexis on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:32PM (#25852852)
I think antivax claims have been given equal credence, they've just been found false.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sli on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:43PM (#25852948)
A better example is that equal time is frequently given to both sides of the climate change debate despite the actually numbers showing that calling it a "debate" is journalistic laziness. Equal credence would mean the deniers only get about 3% of the allotted time to make their crackpot case, because that's the closest they come to being a "side" in this non-debate against the other 93% that also have 100% of the data and research.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by imtringued on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:59AM (#25856926)
It's like spam in a decentralized system. Attackers can't change consensus within the system but they can slow it down to a crawl. Proof of work in Bitcoin is just an anti spam mechanism.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by wolco5 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:51PM (#25853955)
Your sister grew up with you and went through the same schooling as you.

Doesn't she deserve to be heard? By labeling her a antivaxer and ignoring her based on that label you effectively are closing your mind to her.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:20PM (#25854551)
Happens all the time. People's ideas get ignored even when they have evidence backing them up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

> Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community.

> He could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings, and some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and mocked him for it.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by XorNot on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:17PM (#25855324)
Medical doctors and surgeons are not scientists. They don't do research, they don't publish papers. Medical research is an entirely different field which overlaps in skills sometimes.

But MDs are more like mechanics for the human body.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by matheusmoreira on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:57AM (#25856278)
Many doctors publish research. Is that not science?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by XorNot on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:58PM (#25868148)
The point is that there's a difference between medical doctors as a profession, and medical doctors by training engaged in research.

It's not a homogenous demographic, and it doesn't have a substantial overlap. So there is a very large (super-majority) of medical doctors who have absolutely no training in research, statistics etc. Because it's not what they do - they are not scientists. Their training is about their obligations to follow current developments in best practice, drug prescriptions etc. (or the same but for surgical technique) and apply it. They do not do science, they don't even necessarily particularly understand the scientific method.

So it is absolutely incorrect to imply that all medical professionals are "the scientific community". They're not. Those which participate in and publish research are but that is not even a significant fraction of their population.

Comparisons about what general population surgeons and medical doctors historically reacted to changes in practice does not say anything about the idea that these people represent a peer-reviewed scientific consensus, because they didn't. They represent the equivalent of a mechanic rejecting manufacturer recommendations on fuel quality and complaining about it to their colleagues.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by voldacar on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:39PM (#25852351)
Yes, it is. And it has also been happening for the whole history of anything recognizable as "science."

The nice, pretty scientific method we learn about in school is largely an idealized myth

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by munificent on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:43PM (#25853889)
> Ridiculing scientists for plausible hypothesis seems very unscientific.

Your statement is self-referential. If a hypothesis is "plausible" than practically by definition it is above ridicule. But how do you decide which hypotheses are plausible?

Science, at its core, is a social system. One of the key goals of that system is prioritization. There are finite research resources and it's important to allocate them to the most promising areas. Ridicule is one of the more extreme tools scientists use in that social process to reach consensus about which hypotheses are plausible.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by kls on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:57PM (#25854012)
Ridicule is one of the more extreme tools scientists use in that social process to reach consensus about which hypotheses are plausible.

It is also a very sinister and discrediting tool. As an example the CRU employed this tactic and set an entire area of scientific research back due to the optics of scientific politics. It can cause the tainted smell of agenda, and that is never good for enlightening people.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by munificent on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:17PM (#25861335)
> It is also a very sinister and discrediting tool.

Agreed, but self-aggrandizement, manipulation, and outright fraud are also tools in the toolbox and if you don't have strong enough defensive tools, you are open to attacks from those. Obviously, they can be misapplied. Humans are not perfect. But without powerful social tools like ridicule and shunning, science becomes essentially a honeypot for charlatans like Andrew Wakefield.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by erdos4d on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:16PM (#25853689)
"Ridiculing scientists for plausible hypothesis" => chopping the legs out from under a competitor because they stepped in something taboo.

Happens all the time. Academia is a snake pit and this is low hanging fruit.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by rtx on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:17PM (#25849013)
Yet we find this to be a recurring theme, I wonder when this switch happens. From a curious boy/girl who becomes a scientist to a conservative.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by irrational on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:22PM (#25849064)
Grad school.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by JALTU on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:00PM (#25853557)
Reinforced repeatedly with career/publication steps, homeownership, children's expenses, neighbor buying a Tesla first, etc.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by matteocantiello on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:32PM (#25853813)
I thought the idea of searching for industrial pollution was actually a pretty bad one. We've been polluting at detectable levels for just ~100 years. And if we keep doing it we'll likely wipe us out in a few hundred more. Overall it seems very likely industrial pollution is a very short-lived phase of any civilizations, so chances of detecting this signature are tiny.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by naikrovek on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:02PM (#25854831)
Pollution capable of completely killing the dominant species of a planet would last a long time after the creation of that pollution ended.

The pollution would vastly outlive the polluters, so it would be detectable for some time after their demise, especially if anything they automated also polluted. That stuff would continue to pollute after its creators all died, at least a bit.

Also, it seems that the chance of detecting pollution would increase linearly as we continue to discover more planets.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by vladTheInhaler on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:19PM (#25854943)
The phrases "a long time", "some time", and "at least a bit" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Oxygen has been in the Earth's atmosphere for over 2 billion years. How long, roughly, is "some time"?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by naikrovek on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:59AM (#25855967)
How big, roughly is the planet in question? How thick, roughly, is the atmosphere? What, roughly, is the composition of the atmosphere? What is the median temperature of the planet? List all species capable of metabolizing pollution back into harmless compounds. What are their lifespans? How do they reproduce?

...hopefully my point is made, now. I can't give details because they don't exist.

If a species produces sufficient pollution that it kills that species, it is a reasonable assumption that it was also produced at a rate far higher than the planets natural ecosystem could absorb it. It is also reasonable that the pollution also kills one or more species which were consuming or absorbing the pollution, slowing the rate at which it can be removed, or maybe even stopping that process completely. Pollution does not disappear at the same time pollutants stop being introduced into the atmosphere.

There will be a time after which no pollutants are produced and before no pollutants are detectable. That is a non-zero amount of time. That is why I say that pollution could one day be detected on a planet that has not had a living civilization for "a long time." "A long time" being "more than five minutes" if you really want me to nail it down.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by vladTheInhaler on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:51AM (#25856248)
> I can't give details because they don't exist.

Right. And if the argument depends on those details, then it's not a very convincing argument.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by naikrovek on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:55AM (#25861028)
My argument is that pollution outlives a society that it kills by a non-zero amount of time.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by vladTheInhaler on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:16PM (#25863648)
I understand. And my argument is that nonzero isn't a good enough lower bound to justify investing in something like that. Oxygen is produced by even very simple organisms, and thus has been present in our atmosphere in significant concentrations for billions of years, currently makes up 20+ percent, and its residence time is 4,500 years [1]. On the other hand, many CFC concentrations are measured in parts per trillion, and have a residence time measured in years or decades [2], and have only existed at all for a century or so at most. Even if every single living thing on this earth died tomorrow, oxygen would be detectible long, long after many pollutants were gone. And chances are, if anything were to survive the kind of disaster that would wipe out humanity, it would be something like the single-celled organisms that excrete oxygen. I'm prepared to believe that you're correct, but you have to present some more compelling evidence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_cycle#Capacities_and_fl...

[2] https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by matteocantiello on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:30PM (#25855025)
Why would the pollution vastly outlive the polluters? It's not obvious to me. Mixing and recycling timescale of an atmosphere seem very short compared to other relevant timescales of the problem. Impactors, volcanic eruptions... the memory of the atmospheric impact of those events is in the sediments, not the air we breathe (e.g. KT boundary). Finally, civilizations that do not destroy themselves in the short-lived polluting era should move to a clean nuclear fusion era. We are probably ~50-100 yrs away if we don't fuck up.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by naikrovek on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:54AM (#25855948)
If the pollution is severe enough to KILL the species creating it, it is already being produced far faster than nature can absorb it or counteract it. It also seems feasible that other species are killed as well; species which may have helped clean the pollution from the planet, which would slow the cleaning process or, if enough species die off, stopping the cleansing process almost entirely.

Pollution doesn't vanish when it isn't being made anymore.

So, if there is so much pollution that it both kills life on the planet, it will take a good amount of time (millions of years? How big of a planet are we talking about?) to be cleansed back to undetectable levels.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:40AM (#25856795)
So far volcanic eruptions were the most dangerous for life.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by stefanmichael on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:28PM (#25855011)
I thought this might be the case as well but at least for CFCs the lifespan without replenishment from human pollution is only about 140 years. so "a bit" for this particular circumstance is not very long at all in the eyes of the universe
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by naikrovek on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:16AM (#25856046)
CFCs are not the only pollutants.

An alien society may produce pollutants which last a million years. Plastics can last millions of years.

Sufficient pollution could cause climate change severe enough to keep all kinds of things airborne for who knows how long. We are constantly surprised by what we learn about other worlds. It is silly to me to presume that anything we know about Earth pollution will be a given on a planet from another star system.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by newsbinator on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:23AM (#25857047)
I wish we could develop a technology to detect plastics across space.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by zelon88 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:29PM (#25855021)
I believe that we've probably altered the geography of Earth to an extent that it would be trivially easy to determine from great distance that it was once inhabited by intelligent beings. Even if all of our cities are gone, the mineral deposits left behind would be so concentrated. Nevermind the nuclear endeavors.

We were able to detect dinosaurs on our own planet 65 million years after they went extinct, and they didn't even pollute anything.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sjy on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:10AM (#25855681)
I recommend Schmidt and Frank’s article on the Silurian hypothesis [1] for a surprisingly different take on this. The full text is on arXiv [2]. “We summarize the likely geological fingerprint of the Anthropocene, and demonstrate that while clear, it will not differ greatly in many respects from other known events in the geological record” – that is, the record we can observe from a distance of zero!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian_hypothesis

[2] https://arxiv.org/abs/1804.03748

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by stefanmichael on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:25PM (#25854998)
I think that you might be right but it would be more conclusive as evidence than detecting just oxygen. CFCs are not something that occurs spontaneously in nature, so essentially if we did get a positive result it would be meaningful.

To your point getting strictly negative results would not necessarily mean anything one way or the other.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by matteocantiello on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:55PM (#25855196)
Yes, I agree with the point that Oxygen is not answering the question definitively. The issue is that say, you build a very, very expensive space telescope and you have to decide if you want it to look for Oxygen or CFC. CFC is a shot in the dark: likely you won't see anything (see my previous comment). Which means likely no data, no PhD thesis, nothing. You pretty much wasted a few billion dollars and you're not ruling out much because what if civilizations only use chemical energy sources for ~200 yrs, then they all switch to nuclear fusion? On the other hand is likely Oxygen will show up as a signature in some exoplanets, and a lot of new understanding about exoplanet atmosphere and geology would follow. Which, among many other things, might help us narrowing down planets where to look for life and how. And next iteration of instruments we might be able to really discover life. So this is why review panels do opt for choices that are more likely to benefit the scientific community at large. It might sound a bit incremental at first, but it's how progress is made. This said, it's not like astrophysicists are not thinking about detecting technosignatures in exoplanetary spectra, see e.g. 3.2 in https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2009.0371 and e.g. https://elib.dlr.de/119683/1/1803.05179.pdf
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by XorNot on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:13PM (#25855298)
This is ignoring the obvious question: what are we not doing that we should be with researching Oumuamua on that basis?

What concrete experiments would prove its an alien construct as opposed to being just interstellar rock?

The scientific community isn't rejecting proposals to find more Oumuamua like objects, and has been actively trying to figure out how we could intercept another one when it turns up.

So what exactly is requiring us to start from "it might be aliens" in order to get funded?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by buildstatements on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:23PM (#25855359)
I only saw part of the Lex interview, and in the part I watched Loeb was saying if we had seen it on the way TOO Earth, we could have sent a rocket to investigate.

If we aren't looking, and a chance arises, we'll miss it, and if we do spot something like it early, what are the chances we are ready with a rocket to go look?

Would be nice if humanity could pre-plan. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/01/be... is a less controversial example.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by XorNot on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:06PM (#25868200)
But we are looking: there is enormous interest in discovering more interstellar objects. It's estimated there should be about ~1000 such objects in the solar system at any given time, and they all represent priceless data about the material composition of the universe outside of our solar system.

People weren't not looking for them, but by their nature no one knows a way to find them reliably (other then, find all the things, look for anything which has a hyperbolic trajectory relative to the sun).

Same problem with an intercept plan: we would like to do it, but the problem is not particularly tractable with our current space technology. Up until we saw Oumuamua we didn't even have a baseline for what we might expect the behaviour of objects to be - which is a problem when you're coming up with a propellant budget for a space mission, since you have no idea how much fuel or weight you can afford for an intercept.

As it stands, we probably need to see a couple more Oumuamua-like objects to develop a reasonable expectation of the frequency of different classes and come up with a mission-profile which we can reasonably expect we'd be able to launch at one in the next 20-40 years. Or a way of establishing a permanent capability (which is not focused research its "yes, let's build the lunar gateway station and develop a long-term La Grange point mode for the Starliner - which is also something which you'd do if you were colonizing Mars).

This is my point: nothing here benefits from "it was aliens" as a starting point. In fact, all of this useful work is pretty explicitly "it's probably not aliens". Because if aliens have gone to the expense and trouble to scout the solar system, then we basically don't need to do any of it - "it was aliens" closes research paths. If we're sure it's aliens, then a much more cost-effective strategy is waiting for them to send another probe that assuredly would move in to study the most interesting thing in Sol - us. Which will be much easier to see because we look closely for Earth-orbit objects.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by tarsinge on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:05AM (#25855996)
It’s still possible to send a spacecraft in the coming years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_object#Hypothet...
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by User23 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:38PM (#25854273)
Yeah, look what happened to Tom Van Flandern.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdonis on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:09PM (#25854491)
> “It is not obvious to me why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

This is either very obtuse or very disingenuous on Loeb's part. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to establish them as true. But that doesn't mean extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to investigate. You investigate the claims in order to see what kind of evidence there is for them. I would expect the actual peer-reviewed paper, which unfortunately this article doesn't link to (I hate when pop science articles do that), to lay out in more detail what the evidence is and why Loeb thinks it establishes his claim.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:17AM (#25859672)
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to establish them as true. But that doesn't mean extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to investigate.

Even your former claim might not be necessarily true. What constitutes "an extraordinary evidence" exactly?

Example: imagine aliens are freely living among us but our eyes are blind to certain light frequencies (they are in fact blind to most wavelengths) and that's how aliens utilize camouflage.

Would revealing this fact be an extraordinary evidence for aliens? It's IMO extremely subjective. People might get very excited with such a discovery, sure, but the explanation does sound rather bland and super obvious (as all things in hindsight).

So this whole "extraordinary" stuff reads more like popular old men bickering in front of the media for the goals of PR coverage and, who knows, maybe that increases their odds for scientific funding. I'd always look for the financial incentive and potential conflict of interest first.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:15PM (#25848985)
There seems to be a giant mismatch about what side is open minded. People who think its most likely aliens think it’s closed minded to assign that low probability, presumably because we’re this tiny corner of the universe. People who think it’s most likely not aliens Think it’s closed minded to assign everything else low probability, presumably because aliens are a tiny corner of everything else.

Is it a misapplication of the anthropic principle to say there are probably gazillions of advanced aliens, given that we appeared and therefore life probably is common? Or is it a misapplication to say it’s probably just another of the gazillions of non-alien things we’ve seen?

It’s all differences of opinion over which claim is the extraordinary one. It is bold to claim confidence about the impossibility of FTL travel, or bold to claim confidence about the possibility of it? Is it bold to say we’re a freak occurrence or bold to say we aren’t? Most generally, is it bold to say we know a lot or bold to say we don’t?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GlennS on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:54PM (#25853500)
I think it's more that we know human nature, and we can see that people who believe we've been visited by aliens are engaging in story telling, not science.

They're working back from the conclusion they want to be true, when they should instead start by weighing the evidence.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ncmncm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:20PM (#25849902)
Their best future course is to stop sniping at one another.

It is possible that it's aliens. It is possible that it's not. We don't have enough evidence even to estimate probabilities, so anything further is pure speculation. Speculation is a look that wears no better on conservatives than on radicals.

There is hardly a field to be found where young radicals are not promoting evidence for what the tenured consider anathema, waiting for the latter to retire or die and get the hell out of the way. As Max Planck said, "Science advances one funeral at a time."

It is common to insist that the right idea wins in the end, but there is no reason to believe it: every case you can cite in its favor amounts to confirmation bias. The frequency of such examples that first languished for decades, with the original proposer driven from the field, would properly make us suspect that the majority of their also-correct peers remain unvindicated, however many false leads have been exposed. (Hypotheses promoted by women driven from a field make a rich vein of ideas to vindicate.)

Loeb is right about one thing: the notion of "extraordinary evidence" is very destructive. Evidence is evidence. It is always easy to make greater demands on evidence you don't like than on evidence you do, and always easy find excuses to discount evidence incompatible with the consensus of the moment. Every field, to be considered legitimate, should maintain an officially taught compendium of "damned facts", evidence that seems to be incompatible with one or more leading theories. Even when a consensus theory is largely correct, the damned evidence will be the basis of any progress.

Nature doesn't play favorites: it is possible for a consensus theory and all its challengers to be wrong. Evidence against one of the latter is not evidence in favor of the former.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:16PM (#25851374)
> Loeb is right about one thing: the notion of "extraordinary evidence" is very destructive. Evidence is evidence.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying except this. Though I still do agree with this a bit. It seems like a shorthand for "be bayesian" that's unfortunately taken too far too frequently. But if I have a strong prior one way or another, I will need stronger evidence to turn me around.

+1 on your main point though. Why can't more people be more comfortable in a state of uncertainty ;_;

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by userulluipeste on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:07PM (#25854087)
There are things (think of Higgs boson type) that lie on the limit of observability/detection, for which there isn't any guarantee that there will ever be means strong enough to qualify for the same level of rigorous study as most of the scientists are comfortable with. The easiest thing to do is to draw a line and to dismiss everything that goes beyond it. The smarter thing to do (in my view) is to recognize the decrease of control and accuracy in our means and classify the fields of study accordingly, then both asking and granting different levels of trust to what is being studied.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ncmncm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:03PM (#25852590)
Few things in science are more subjective than the relative importance of a piece of evidence.

It is not at all unusual for a key measurement to be wrong, but also not unusual to trust the wrong one.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:38PM (#25855082)
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ncmncm on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:56AM (#25855958)
From the article > A study of when different geologists accepted plate tectonics found that older scientists actually adopted it sooner than younger scientists.

But the paper cited refers, instead, to the relative safety of the tenured professors to speak out in favor of plate tectonics, vs. the younger researchers who knew that would be, as we say, career-limiting.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:38AM (#25856179)
Reminds me of Roger Penrose and Carver Mead.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by gfxgirl on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:53PM (#25849491)
I thought the idea that there are gazillions of advanced aliens has been pretty much disproven by the fermi paradox.

If there are gazillion, at least one out of all the diversity out there should have already colonized the entire galaxy and evidence should be plentiful.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:19PM (#25849880)
There’s a nice analysis of the Fermi paradox out there somewhere that takes into account uncertainties in each of the parameters. As you multiply them together, the uncertainties compound each other. The end result is a big old who knows, rather than a paradox. Our observations are compatible with a really wide variety of realities, many of which include lots of aliens and many of which don’t.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by PoachedSausage on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:24PM (#25850744)
Maybe there has been some sort of accident of scale, like the intergalactic fleet in Hitch Hiker Guide to the Galaxy that arrives to destroy Earth but is eaten by a dog.

There could be a banging ET party going at the Planck scale and we would never know, they might as well be on the other side of the universe.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:28PM (#25852232)
The problem with this is that mechanics is not scale invariant. This puts bounds on creatures. Unless there's some crazy different way to compute I wouldn't expect a being to be able to have strong cognitive functions and be the size of a fly. They would also have a difficult time building advanced machinery to get to galactic travel scales. Similarly I wouldn't expect a creature the size of a Brontosaurus to become space faring. Because of their sizes they would have to consume significantly more resources to build simple things. A two story house probably couldn't be created out of wood or other basic biological materials making it difficult to transition into even the stone age. They also require higher food because energy requirements aren't linear. But think how much it costs to send a pound to space. Their first to space would be significantly more expensive.

This doesn't mean these things are impossible because maybe there are ways around them, but it certainty shifts the probabilities by quite a bit. Given our current understanding of biology and mechanics it makes it much more probable for creatures to be within the ballpark of our size (let's say crow to elephant?).

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:45PM (#25853904)
I think this is a mistaken way of thinking in general, because you're omitting time. Your assuming that intelligent/thinking/conscious creatures would necessarily function on timelines that make sense to us. If that were true, then what you're saying makes sense - there are real bounds on how fast you can move chemical energy from A to B, for example.

But I see nothing preventing intelligent life from operating on massively longer timescales. This requires, of course, that you believe that intelligence (and maybe consciousness too) is substrate and timescale independent, which may or may not be a big ask depending on where you stand on these issues.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:24PM (#25854571)
I think this is strange thinking because it breaks our laws of physics. The clock ticks at the same rate in internal reference frames, it is only different when looking at two different frames. But if you're talking about them acting at slower speeds or faster, then that brings along other problems similar to the mechanics ones we discussed (assuming we're not counting that they are in a slower reference frame). It really shifts the probabilities around. Even trees act relatively quickly because forces act fast. You'd have to be in a pretty extreme environment for other things to happen.

As to chemistry, if they are moving faster then that means that they have more thermal energy. That comes with radiative problems (why humans stand) and this is much more difficult the smaller you are because you have less surface area. Which then puts large energy requirements on intake. And then the inverse is true.

The thing is that aliens would still have to follow the laws of physics. There is no reason to expect that wouldn't be true and reasoning otherwise would take some pretty extraordinary evidence and probably win you several Nobel prizes.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:11PM (#25864293)
Good points, but ...

consider the range of timescales that humans can have effective control over. We manage to organize subatomic collisions that occur in femto-seconds, and we manage to build things that last thousands of years. All this despite the fact that our own lives are measured in units that are several orders of magnitude smaller or larger.

So I can imagine (just about) an intelligent system that can also effectively build systems operating in time domains orders of magnitude from their own experience/lifetimes. If they were very "slow" then certainly launching objects into orbit may appear almost impossibly fast to them. But it wouldn't be notably different than what we do with particle physics (or even firing a gun), where the timescale of the event is essentially impercetible to us, and far beyond our ability to control with our own bodies.

The other way around is harder, because creating things that last much longer than an individual's lifetime has to fall back on culture, and that seems to evolve (change) much more rapidly. There are very few buildings still in use that are more than a thousand years old, even though the physical construction of such a thing is relatively trivial.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Friday January 22, 2021 @01:31AM (#25869019)
> So I can imagine (just about) an intelligent system that can also effectively build systems operating in time domains orders of magnitude from their own experience/lifetimes.

This isn't the problem I'm getting at. The problem I'm getting at is that it'd be highly unlikely for an intelligent lifeform (or really any) to develop under those extreme conditions. Advancing under other conditions and then developing towards extreme conditions after they have reached a sufficiently advanced state is a different issue.

For extreme conditions like operating at a speed much faster to us (imperceptible) would mean that they would be under high amounts of acceleration than compared to us. Gravity already puts major constraints on humans and for a lifeform to be operating at a rate imperceptible to us we're not talking about 10x or 100x the gravity but more like 10^10^10^10 (or more). Mind you that their internal reference frames (their internal clocks) would operate at a different speed than what we see their clock moving at. Subatomic particles have a difficult time operating at a fraction of that gravitational force. That means you have no building blocks.

What you're not considering is that I've accounted for things like chemical processes and electrical processes not being needed. The problem is that I don't know how you get two particles to change state (at least in non-extreme or destructive ways) under the conditions you're talking about. This isn't about "oh we just don't know" it is that there are some things we do know. We know that lifeforms have to be able to change their state (e.g. you can move your fingers or you can have a thought. These are state changes). We know the basic building blocks of the universe, quarks (or at best strings). There's certain rules these things have to abide by. You can let your imagination run wild but there are still limits of what you can do within this universe. And any being even visiting this universe would still be subject to these rules even if they were from a different universe that had a different set of rules. You can't just trash these rules in the spirit of imagination (which btw testing and updating these rules is what the job of a physicist or really any scientist is. But it is still a convergent process).

Creating things that last longer than an individual's lifetime isn't hard at all. We've done it by accident, they are called artifacts. Nature does it all the time, they are called fossils or just dirt. Trees last longer than human lifetimes. I know you think you're keeping an open mind but instead what you've done is limited it. Operating within the bounds of the rules doesn't have to be a limiting process. There may still be an infinite number of configurations under these rules. But abandoning them makes your search space so open (and open in a way where you wouldn't expect to find solutions) that you can never find what you're looking for. It is like if you're looking for needles in a haystack and arguing that the way to find the needle is to add more hay because the needle is inside the hay.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ChainOfFools on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:06AM (#25855643)
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:29AM (#25856139)
I'm sorry, you dropped a 130 page book with no other comment. Is there anything specific you want to say?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ChainOfFools on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:44AM (#25856209)
sorry, the relevant part of the book is in the first few pages of the first chapter, where JBS Haldane discusses the physical limits of mammalian anatomy due to load bearing constraints on bone cross sections and hydraulic implications for a heart that must circulate blood/lymph through a gigantic body, and how all of these and other separate systemic envelopes merge to form what we understand as the "right" sizes for living things etc.

Some portion of this chapter is occasionally excerpted to deflate claims about extraordinarily large or small purported alien creatures, though Haldane was setting up an argument for dynamically limited systems in general.

I thought it might be an interesting skim given the similarities to your comment above.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:28AM (#25856729)
Oh thankyou. This sounds interesting.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:55PM (#25855201)
Have you heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(spider)? Or that birds brains are "wired" more dense, like our cerebellum?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by godelski on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:31AM (#25856155)
I haven't, that's pretty cool. You can update my terrible range guesstimate accordingly. Though that doesn't change the main thesis of there being more likely sizes than others.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by shrimp_emoji on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:20PM (#25849898)
A possible chink is that civilizations just don't do that -- carpet colonize the whole galaxy, or fill it with their probes to the extent that we seem them all over the place. The Fermi paradox relies on material (probes, colonies) and light (signals).

With the material explained away, the lack signals is much easier to explain in that we haven't listened long and we can only hear very loud signals. (Or maybe advanced civs don't use light and use gravity waves or tachyon beams or whatever, but you don't even need to go that far.) The only way we hear a signal is if it's:

1. loud (high energy) and aimed directly at us, like a tight beam

2. EXTREMELY LOUD and aimed everywhere, isotropically

1 is unlikely since they'd have to know where we are; 2 is unlikely since you're talking about an insane level of energy. If it's the case that civs don't seem to be making Dyson spheres or harvesting whole galaxies for energy, being able to throw around that kind of power is prohibitively expensive. In both these cases, the inverse square law applies (for every unit x of distance, the light's x² less bright). Ironically, that means we're more likely to detect signals from an improbably close civilization (like 4 light years next door, in Alpha Centuari), than from farther away -- and even then, by a chance sweep of an umodulated asteroid scanning beam[0] or something, if we happened to be paying attention at the time.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLC1

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by gfxgirl on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:27AM (#25860636)
> A possible chink is that civilizations just don't do that -- carpet colonize the whole galaxy, or fill it with their probes to the extent that we seem them all over the place

This assumes that there are gazillons of alien civs yet somehow they all come to the same decision. That's much less likely than gazillions of alien civs all make different decisions and it only takes a single one to make the replicating probs or try to colonize.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by jrumbut on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:54PM (#25852501)
Do you know if about any simulations of what it would look like if there were alien radio operators?

If there were 50 other Earths scattered around the galaxy (ones that have been broadcasting like us but for longer) should the first television have imnediately picked up interstellar "I Love Lucy" or would it be faint anomalies from SETI? Somewhere in between?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by giantrobot on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:07AM (#25856009)
The inverse square law says no [0]. Even relatively high powered transmitters aren't detectable for an Arecibo-class antenna more than a few AU from Earth. If you want a signal detected light years away you need it to be highly directional. An isotropic radiator emitting enough power to be detected light years away is called a star.

So any SETI signals we might detect would almost certainly need to be intentional. That doesn't mean they would need to be responses to something we've broadcast just the sender was aiming their transmitter towards the solar system and sent a signal.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20140719094337/http://www.comput...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by 7thaccount on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:00PM (#25854039)
The milky way is 100,000 light years across and I love Lucy is what, 60-70 years old? I would say we've reached a very small portion of the milky way
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by gfodor on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:37PM (#25852325)
Paradoxes are paradoxes precisely because they fail to disprove two contradictory claims.

For the Fermi paradox, the paradox is that the immensity of the universe leading to life seems obvious, yet the complete absence of that life around us seems to show it's not there. So it disproves nothing, but actually highlights the difficulty of disproving either claim given the other.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sli on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:50PM (#25853009)
I never much liked this being called a paradox since it has so many built in assumptions, most of them centered around any given, theoretical alien civilization resembling a human civilization in any way. It's a limitation of what we know for sure, since there's certainly no rule that civilization elsewhere should resemble civilization on Earth. That's an acceptable limitation, it's difficult to notice things you don't know you should notice, but it's a limitation nonetheless.

Of course, it's also possible for civilizations to be so far away that we will like never detect them due to the inverse square law. They could even be in parts of the universe we can't observe.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mtts on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:13PM (#25849799)
According to the Chinese science fiction author Liu Cixin the Fermi paradox is solved by the certainty that if an alien civilization announces its presence to the rest of the universe, one of the gazillions of other advanced alien civilizations is sure to destroy it. So they keep quiet.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:26PM (#25849987)
That would imply the laws of physics somehow dictate the self-manifestation or creation of intelligent clouds of elements (e.g. humans) who by their vary quantum waveform / nature are violent and want to destroy other clouds of elements even if the cost involves harvesting energy from your only local star.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by emteycz on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:16PM (#25852107)
Not necessarily - the laws of physics might merely make it likely enough to be common.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by yoz-y on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:27PM (#25849999)
The books and all are nice but the Dark Forest Theory doesn't hold agains much scrutiny. Among other reasons because if that were true we would be already dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmCTmgavkrQ

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:05PM (#25855260)
Why is that? Let's say we've emitted since about 100 years. They are bound by lightspeed like we are. Our wavefront hasn't reached them so far, OR it has, and they are about 50 lightyears away, busy building a slow annihilation fleet, arriving here anytime about 100 years from now, depending on how high up to lightspeed they can go?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by nobody9999 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:15AM (#25857368)
>and they are about 50 lightyears away, busy building a slow annihilation fleet, arriving here anytime about 100 years from now,

It's an interesting idea, but it raises the reasonable (IMHO) question, "Why would they bother?"

It seems like an awfully big investment of resources for actions which wouldn't be of real benefit to them.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by yoz-y on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:30AM (#25857460)
If your goal is annihilation you don't bother with a fleet, you hurl a relativistic kill vehicle (aka, a hunk of rock or metal) at them.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:26AM (#25859805)
Nonono! Need to have the holy and heroic enforcers of the righteous path embedded and experience it with full sensorium, to conserve the glory of it for all eternity, and bring it back to be rememberd as it really happened(TM)!
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by galkk on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:06PM (#25851994)
I mean - it's called Dark Forest, but if you will look at any documentary, even dark forest is full of life. You will hear crickets, you will hear owls, you may see fireflies.

The theory has catchy name, but even the earth's nature disproves it.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by lambda_obrien on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:51PM (#25852465)
If you read the three books, you realize that the true message is that if you're considered a possible threat to an advanced species, they'll annihilate you, otherwise you'll be left alone. Maybe every other species which knows about us knows we can't even leave our own planet/moon right now, the most we can do is send useless robots to other planets over 30 years.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by confidantlake on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:45PM (#25854322)
I haven't read the third book so maybe they expanded on it, but from the first 2 books the theory seemed different. It is far too dangerous to let a non advanced civilization live because they can quickly develop to an advanced civilization.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by svachalek on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:15PM (#25855311)
That's how I understand it: light speed is so slow and technological progress is so fast that any intelligent species could develop the ability to wipe you out faster than you could realize the threat is coming. Ergo, the only possible way to be safe is to destroy other civilizations as soon as they pop up their heads.

I feel like a lot of so-called solutions to the Fermi paradox fail when they speculate on what "aliens" would do. Would they seal us off and make a zoo, or find it morally wrong to contact us, etc, etc. It's bold to assume a single policy, since there would likely be multiple alien civilizations, or multiple factions even if there is only one.

So I give this one more credit in that once you have reached 100% understanding of physics, you will know whether this premise true or not true and it more or less dictates that you answer it if it is true. However, I'm not convinced that with 100% knowledge of physics you would find yourself so vulnerable. And even if you were, it still seems various forms of containment would be just as effective as a genocidal attack.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by yoz-y on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:36AM (#25857492)
> Would they seal us off and make a zoo

This one kind of works because it only takes one civilisation to block us and keep the others out.

> once you have reached 100% understanding of physics, you will know whether this premise true or not true

How does understanding physics give you the certainty?

As a solution to the paradox that would assume that all civilisations are extremely xenophobic and also always assume that collaboration is impossible.

BTW: my current belief is that most likely life is just super-rare (phosphorus problem, and way too many required variables) and also that colonising a galaxy is probably a sub-optimal solution for overpopulation.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:21AM (#25857401)
The very idea "wage wars to be safe" is a bit puzzling, honestly, even animals know better.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by emmelaich on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:15PM (#25854143)
The analogy is flawed, doesn't mean it's not useful.

Applied to a forest on earth, you'd have to make the animals are extremely slow.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by willis936 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:52PM (#25854378)
Friends trump enemies. Survival of any individual is maximized when working with others. Whether that individual is a cell, a multicellular lifeform, a country, or a multi-system species. Dominating all others is a poor bet compared to being friendly.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by phkahler on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:38PM (#25850147)
The Killing Star.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:24PM (#25852771)
Every advancing civilization will eventually create an internet. Once they do that, interstellar travel is off the table. Advanced civilizations stay closely packed because they cannot tolerate latency once they get a taste for near instant communication.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:41PM (#25853877)
Given that serious interstellar travel really requires FTL transport, I suspect that the two are rather closely connected.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by willis936 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:19PM (#25854177)
Why is FTL necessary for interstellar travel? If you could go even 1% c then you could make journies that are multiple light years on the scale of centuries. It’s not until 50% c does time dilation start playing a significant role, but it would allow making a 10 l-yr journey in 17 years.

Nature doesn’t care if we think there should be aliens or FTL travel. Nature doesn’t like casualty violated and that means we’re all going to be following its rules on the speed of causality. There are no cosmic-scale sentient forces that can shape space-time near us or else we would have noticed in observations decades ago.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:40PM (#25854672)
I disagree, I think it probably would for humans.. but what about other advanced organisms? Maybe they have very long lives. Maybe their biology is more conducive to 'suspended animation' or some other form of hibernation. Maybe they've digitized their minds and can suspend execution of their thought processes for tens of thousands of years. Maybe their social traits (ant like hives perhaps?) make generation ships feasible while they would collapse into strive for humans.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by _carbyau_ on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:38PM (#25855081)
So Competitive Quake/Counter Strike/ThingsKidsPlayTheseDays:-) will fund research into FTL transport for <1ms ping.

Sadly, I could see it. Some billionaire somewhere wants "The Best" latency numbers and wants it on their yacht...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by bobsmooth on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:19AM (#25855733)
It really hasn't. [1]

[1]https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by y-c-o-m-b on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:11PM (#25849764)
> If we assume that Oumuamua is an alien construct, what "new vistas of exploration for evidence and discovery" open up that we are not already pursuing?

I think what he's trying to convey is that thinking of this object under the assumption of "aliens" pushes us to develop experimental technology to prove it. This could then lead to future advances (whether intentional or accidental) potentially helping us detect alien technology where we otherwise wouldn't be able to had we not begun that pursuit. He's looking at it from a very long-term perspective.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by 7thaccount on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:04PM (#25854064)
We don't need Oumuamua to push technology further and further. We're already pushing. Now if some aliens showed up on a star cruiser and told us Warp drive is easily obtainable without massive amounts of energy. Then, that would be a new goal to direct ourselves to that could inspire us.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by AlexB138 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:03PM (#25848833)
> ... proffering alien explanations for "canals" on mars, pulsars, GRBs, and FRBs to name a few

For those out there who, like me, don't know these acronyms:

GRBs == Gamma-Ray Bursts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-ray_burst

FRBs == Fast Radio Bursts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_radio_burst

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by noetic_techy on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:04PM (#25855254)
>>I don't think very many people are saying it is impossible that Oumuamua was an alien construct

Listen to his interviews, he is talking about his colleagues at Harvard, not the general public. They are the ones saying things like "I wish it never existed because we can't explain it"

>>it is a pretty big fallacy to say "we don't understand it, therefore it was aliens".

Again, this is not at all what he is saying. Read his paper and listen to his interviews. It exhibits the signs and being an artificial construct, and he even points to a similar object that was detected that turned out to be a booster launched back in the 50s. You can't easily explain the acceleration of the object with known natural entities like comets and asteroids. It showed no plume nor ejecta, yet seemed to gain speed equivalent to 10% of its mass being ejected. The reason the booster did this was due to the push of solar winds on a thin shell of a hollow object. Hence the theory that this may be some kind of alien solar sail. It does have an extremely odd geometry. The renderings of it being a large turd of an asteroid is pure speculation. There is no clear picture of it. I bet if Voyager 1 made it to another star system it would accelerate also due to its thin surfaces and exhibit the same profile, albeit smaller. And we left a gold disk with our address on it. What if it has technology that we haven't even conceived of? It actually would be worth while for our species to mount an expedition to catch up with it and turn it around. Sounds expensive but wow would it be huge if it was an alien craft.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Retric on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:47AM (#25848613)
Yea, the actual fallacy is thinking you must identify what something is before you have enough information. 1I/2017 U1 is an unknown object and that’s perfectly ok. It didn’t display any radio signals, unusual thrust, or extreme velocity requiring it to be an alien probe. But, that doesn’t prevent it from being a probe either.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by jonathankoren on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:33PM (#25849223)
While it’s true that it didn’t produce any detectable radio signals, it have an unexplained force acting on it. It was this acceleration away from the sun that spawned the theories of undetected outgassing or light pressure. As for “extreme velocity”, that’s a bit a canard. It’s traveling at interstellar speeds, and humanity has already has five interstellar probes today. Now none of these indicate that it’s probe — working or otherwise — but these aren’t the reasons against it. (Well, no radio emissions is a reason against a working probe.)

The big unknown for me about the object is that we don’t actually have a good idea about its shape. Drawings show it has a cigar shaped rock, which is only one possible configuration compatible with the radio reflections. If only we could have actually seen the object, a lot of this uncertainty would have been eliminated.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Retric on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:25PM (#25849961)
I chose unusual as it had thrust consistent with comets.

After ruling out solar-radiation pressure, drag- and friction-like forces, interaction with solar wind for a highly magnetized object, and geometric effects originating from 'Oumuamua potentially being composed of several spatially separated bodies or having a pronounced offset between its photocentre and centre of mass, we find comet-like outgassing to be a physically viable explanation, provided that 'Oumuamua has thermal properties similar to comets. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29950718/

PDF: https://csnbiology.org/rw_common/plugins/stacks/armadillo/me...

PS: At to extreme velocity, something large traveling 0.1+ c or even 0.01c is very likely to be aliens. This was fast, but a long way from those kind of speeds.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by BobbyJo on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:55PM (#25853515)
If you listen to his podcast with Lex he explains that the outgassing needed to give it the acceleration it had would require 10% of it's mass to cook off, as well as all of it had to be hydrogen else we'd have seen the trail. Why consider a comet made entirely of hydrogen more likely than an alien probe?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Retric on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:14PM (#25854137)
The paper addresses that point.

The model predictions for the magnitude and temporal evolution of the non-gravitational acceleration are within a factor of about 2–3 of the observations (see Methods) for a water production rate of QH2O = 4.9 × 1025 molecules s−1 (or 1.5 kg s−1) near 1.4 au and an addi- tional contribution from QCO = 4.5 × 1025 molecules s−1 (or 2.1 kg s−1). Outgassing at this level does not conflict with the absence of spectro- scopic detections for outgassing of OH, because the values quoted are well below the spectroscopic limits on production rates16. However, the inferred upper limits for water production at 1.4 au, which are based on the non-detection of CN7 and assumed Solar System abundances for QCN/QOH17, show that ‘Oumuamua would need to be substantially depleted in CN (by a factor of more than about 15) relative to water.

And:

However, if the grains are predominantly larger than a few hundred micrometres to millimetres, they would not have been detected at optical wavelengths (see Methods). In the Solar System, comet 2P/Encke is noteworthy for its lack of small dust near perihelion18. Cometary behaviour implies that ‘Oumuamua must have some internal strength, at least comparable to Solar System comets19, because asteroid-like densities are ruled out (see Methods).

It’s an interesting read, suggesting interstellar space as being significantly different than what you see inside solar systems.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:52AM (#25848692)
Or even just a piece of debris of unnatural origin. I'm not saying that's what it is, or even is likely to be, but it's in the possibility space.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:19AM (#25859714)
> If we assume that Oumuamua is an alien construct, what "new vistas of exploration for evidence and discovery" open up that we are not already pursuing?

Chicken and egg problem. We won't know until people are with unconventional ideas are free to try pursuing them without being mocked as "tin-foil hats" or "conspiracy nutjobs" or whatever.

Let's take a moment to remember how many similarly not-at-all-related-to-space travel inventions have been made due to fighting the space race (who gets first to the moon) (like the CDs).

I believe the quote is not a specific evidence for anything. It's a call for us to adhere to a slightly different principle:

"Let's explore, for we are far from knowing everything and we shouldn't mock people who investigate things that to the majority look absurd. They might indeed be absurd but every now and then we make interesting discoveries".

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by jonny_eh on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:16PM (#25852103)
Also infuriating since Sagan was a proponent of long-shot science like SETI and the golden disc on Voyager. He proved that we can be scientifically rigorous and still take chances to explore.