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Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:45PM (#25849409)
This is very common in science. New theories are usually rejected and ridiculed until/if they develop enough evidence behind them to sway people.

Some careers are destroyed. Some scientists are only vindicated posthumously. The process can take many decades.

Scientists, like most humans, are not that open-minded and are subject to the same group-think blind spots. I think if we could get better at being open-minded as a species, we'd make faster progress and better ideas would win out more often. This is as much true in society at large, or business, as it is in science.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:23PM (#25849933)
And they are careerist...

My Post-doc colleague during my PhD@MIT was explaining this trick he does to get his system working that he never publishes (one very small step of 100 steps). He was concerned that if he published the step, it would hurt his chances at getting a professorship.

It’s exactly the same logic behind why code is not published.

Because ethically you can ‘hand wave it away’ as obvious to other experts and not worth publishing.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by benibela on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:49PM (#25851795)
How can you be a post-doc without publishing?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by galkk on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:58PM (#25851906)
I think what was meant could be described by a joke: "professor writes a theorem proof on 6 pages, removes pages 3 and 4 and writes 'trivially leads to'"
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by remexre on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:58PM (#25851905)
I read that as, one step of his experimental procedure isn't published.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by xattt on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @12:59PM (#25849586)
The most recent event that comes to my mind is the lead up to the discovery of H. pylori causing gastric ulcers.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:14PM (#25849817)
Yeah that's a good one.

Another is recommending trans-fat based margarine over butter. That was counter-productive health advice that took decades to reverse - even although the evidence it was based on was extremely flimsy.

Once the group-think machine gets going in a direction, it has a tremendous amount of inertia.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by logicchains on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @09:16PM (#25854527)
>That was counter-productive health advice that took decades to reverse - even although the evidence it was based on was extremely flimsy.

I think this was more a case of lobbying by certain agricultural producers than ignorance. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/14823257_Food_Lobbi...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#25859945)
True, but the point still stands: a lot of people can be influenced by something no matter its origins. Once they can say "X thousand can't be wrong" then you and your pesky idea backed up by facts and evidence can go to hell.

Sadly history is full of such occurrences.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eth0up on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:49PM (#25850276)
Append Ignaz Semmelweis to this important list, which is a plump one.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sterlind on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:12PM (#25849787)
Tectonic plates was another big one.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by treeman79 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:43PM (#25851004)
Peoples position on that one shifted very slowly.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:10PM (#25852038)
sir, may I see your dad license please?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ryandrake on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:45PM (#25854319)
It’s not his fault that the joke was dad-worthy.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by dboreham on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#25853611)
But when they did shift, it was a...
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by mensetmanusman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:24PM (#25849958)
This is a current fun topic with some controversy related to tectonic plates: do solar flares cause earthquakes?

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/07/powerful-eruptions-on-the...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Enginerrrd on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:43PM (#25851726)
Despite being a really stupid-sounding premise, that is actually kind of interesting.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by hntrader on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:28PM (#25852237)
Another: Many World's Interpretation of QM. Not known to be true but less ridiculed and more widely subscribed.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by astrange on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:32AM (#25856755)
The inventor of the COVID mRNA vaccine was fired from her tenure position because UPenn thought the idea wouldn't work.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/mrna-coronavirus-vaccine-pfi...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:28PM (#25850020)
It's not just science, I can think of an example from pure mathematics. Cantor's work showing the uncountability of the real numbers was derided by prominent members of the mathematical community for decades. This despite the fact that he was able to boil down his argument into a proof so simple it's taught in introductory undergraduate classes. Now, this was at a time when mathematicians were still trying to rigorously define set theory and ground mathematics on a foundation of logic, but still it's a relatively simple and understandable proof. I think the moral of the story is that people are stubborn and are capable of disagreeing about just about everything.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by resource0x on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:32PM (#25852284)
Bad example. Cantor's theory is controversial to this day.

"Classical logic was abstracted from the mathematics of finite sets and their subsets …. Forgetful of this limited origin, one afterwards mistook that logic for something above and prior to all mathematics, and finally applied it, without justification, to the mathematics of infinite sets. This is the Fall and original sin of Cantor's set theory."

-- Hermann Weyl

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:37PM (#25853362)
I wouldn't really consider Weyl as an example of a modern day critic, considering he died in 1955. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern mathematician that rejects the diagonalization argument, outside of finitists, which are pretty far from the mainstream. I mean the proof that there is no bijection from a set to its power set is pretty straightforward and constructive. I'm pretty sure the proof is valid even in intuitionist logic.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by cambalache on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @11:46PM (#25855511)
By whom? Almost all mainstream mathematicians rightfully lionize Cantor's main contributions, as David Hilbert so eloquently put it: "No one shall expel us from the paradise Cantor has created for us" Aus dem Paradies, das Cantor uns geschaffen, soll uns niemand vertreiben können
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by alisonkisk on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:27PM (#25853281)
Cantor proved that R, the set of all reals, cannot be countable. That was never controversial. What's controversial is claiming that R (or any uncountable set) exists, as no one has rigorously proved without adding an axiom.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:07PM (#25853616)
What axiom do you have to add, are you talking about the axiom of infinity, defining the set of natural numbers? Because you do need that, but without that wouldn't even be able to define uncountability. After that, you can define the reals using Dedekind cuts or Cauchy sequences, which was known at the time (I believe Cantor actually worked on the Cauchy sequence construction). But there's an even simpler uncountable set: the power set of the natural numbers. Super easy to define, and the diagonalization argument falls right out.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:45AM (#25856516)
To construct R you need to repeat Dedekind cut uncountable number of times, i.e. you need to iterate over all real numbers, which would make them countable.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:09AM (#25859571)
You don't need any sort of "repetition" of Dedekind cuts to construct the real numbers, it's actually fairly straightforward. The set of all Dedekind cuts is a subset of the power set of rational numbers (i.e. each Dedekind cut is a set of rational numbers) satisfying the following properties: for each Dedekind cut A

1. A is not the empty set

2. A is not the set of all rational numbers

3. A is closed downwards, meaning if x is in A and y < x, then y is in A

4. A has no greatest element, meaning for all x in A, there is a y in A such that y > x.

And each Dedekind cut is in one-to-one correspondence with a real number. You can define the usual arithmetic operations on them, show that every rational number has a corresponding Dedekind cut (for any rational q, we have {x in Q | y < q } as the corresponding cut). I haven't seen a proof of the uncountability of Dedekind cuts using the diagonalization argument, but you can prove there is a one-to-one correspondence between Dedekind cuts and Cauchy sequences of rational numbers, which is another construction of the reals. And there is a fairly straightforward proof that those are uncountable using diagonalization.

But as you can see, you don't need any sort of repetition to do the construction, it's just a set of sets of rational numbers satisfying a few simple properties. For more information, check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbe...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by GoblinSlayer on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:38PM (#25864642)
So you just assume that the set exists.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by openasocket on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:23PM (#25867054)
Well I assume the set of natural numbers exist, by the axiom of infinity. From there you can construct the set of rationals. And you can construct the power set of the set of rationals, by the axiom of the power set. And the set of all Dedekind cuts is a subset of the power set of rationals satisfying those properties listed above, which we can construct by the axiom schema of separation. All of this is Zermelo-Frankel set theory, don't even need the axiom of choice.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by itronitron on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:59PM (#25850416)
Bretz defended his theories, and this kicked off an acrimonious 40-year debate over the origin of the Scablands. Both Pardee and Bretz continued their research over the next 30 years, collecting and analyzing evidence that led them to identify Lake Missoula as the source of the Spokane flood and creator of the channeled scablands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

Also Plate Tectonics...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_development_of...

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by userulluipeste on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:17PM (#25853701)
On one hand, this is because it's such a safe thing to cause damage to the image of another fellow scientist that happens to dare looking at something new or in a new way. (Crab mentality, perhaps?) If this effect would be as costly to the individual attacker as it is for the collective, we would probably "move fast and break things" more. On the other hand, we already have way too many non peer-reviewed papers as it is, and those papers get cited by other papers, and so on. Not enough action to ensure quality. In such case, what the critiques with good intentions for the world but with limited time and attention are to do but go after the most audacious claims in their field?
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by ntsplnkv2 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:29PM (#25852824)
This is a good thing. If we entertained every crackpot theory we would waste tons of time. it's good for there to be some gatekeeping. Of course sometimes they're wrong - but so what? That will come out if there is actual evidence.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:59PM (#25853544)
There is a balance here, you are correct, but I think we currently skew too far toward gatekeeping.

Too little gatekeeping means trouble finding the signal through the noise and time wasted on dead ends. Too much and good ideas get neglected or squashed for far too long. There is a cost to both.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by totalZero on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @10:21PM (#25854957)
Unfortunately, gatekeeping is essential to academia. Ask anyone who wants to publish a finding independently, or read a paper for free without being associated with an institution. Heck, ask the undergrads who paid tens of thousands of dollars for Zoom classes that have MOOC alternatives alternatives.

> Too little gatekeeping means trouble finding the signal through the noise and time wasted on dead ends.

Much time is supposed to be spent on dead ends anyway. That's the way the corpus matures, not to mention an inevitable result of peer review (no need to review anything if all the research product is perfect). Research is a search; imagine running BFS without expecting to encounter dead ends.

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by emmelaich on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:11PM (#25854114)
There's another aspect - with strong gatekeeping it is assumed that those theories that make it through are true.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by pdimitar on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:27PM (#25865347)
Not really, they often are simply in tune and in agreement with the currently established group-think.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by shvn on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:01AM (#25855974)
> I think if we could get better at being open-minded as a species, we'd make faster progress and better ideas would win out more often.

Given the current scenario we are certainly not sure if we are ever going to achieve it! Though that achievement can work wonders. Any thoughts how you see that change can be made possible?

Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eevilspock on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:21PM (#25851460)
Time to break out Thomas Kuhn.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by Joeri on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:08PM (#25852639)
Ah, but my sister always says I’m not open-minded because I won’t read all her antivaxer info. If we give all ideas equal credence, better ideas will not win out.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by eloff on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:06PM (#25853607)
I'm not suggesting that being open minded requires giving all ideas equal credence, that's a strawman. Just that us humans tend to have strongly held opinions that are wrong far too often - like your sister in this case. If she was more open minded about her own beliefs that would be beneficial.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by anamexis on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:32PM (#25852852)
I think antivax claims have been given equal credence, they've just been found false.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by sli on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:43PM (#25852948)
A better example is that equal time is frequently given to both sides of the climate change debate despite the actually numbers showing that calling it a "debate" is journalistic laziness. Equal credence would mean the deniers only get about 3% of the allotted time to make their crackpot case, because that's the closest they come to being a "side" in this non-debate against the other 93% that also have 100% of the data and research.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by imtringued on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:59AM (#25856926)
It's like spam in a decentralized system. Attackers can't change consensus within the system but they can slow it down to a crawl. Proof of work in Bitcoin is just an anti spam mechanism.
Re:Have we already been visited by aliens? by wolco5 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:51PM (#25853955)
Your sister grew up with you and went through the same schooling as you.

Doesn't she deserve to be heard? By labeling her a antivaxer and ignoring her based on that label you effectively are closing your mind to her.