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Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by amgreg on Sunday August 30, 2020 @08:58AM (#24322925)
Bob Metcalfe, self professed “conservative hippie,” inventor of the Ethernet, founder of 3Com, of Xerox Parc fame, has this to offer:

> One of the few things that government should do is finance research, because — I have learned from many years — the only companies that can afford to do research are monopolies. Real companies cannot afford to do research other than monopolies. And there are some famous ones. The telephone monopoly — Bell Labs. The computer monopoly — Watson Labs. The copier monopoly — Xerox Parc. And on it goes. In retrospect the monopolies aren't worth it for the research they do. It's nauseating how much we hear about how cool Bell Labs was, but other than the transistor and Unix and the princess telephone, what did we get for all that money? And then for years AT&T as a monopoly sat on innovation — and IBM after that, and Xerox after that — it's just not worth it, so let's kill those monopolies. And if we need research, have it done at research universities. And the other spin I would offer there: as a practitioner of technological innovation, I worry about technology transfer — how do you get technology transferred from the lab into the marketplace. And the best way to do that is with people; and it is the business of universities to graduate people. So let's do our research there, and I think the ARPANet is a great example where government financed the research.

Source: https://youtu.be/zKz07DdaKzw?t=3772

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by wenc on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:29PM (#24323864)
> other than the transistor and Unix and the princess telephone, what did we get for all that money?

Bell Labs may not have been able to commercialize all of its discoveries, but humanity certainly got a lot more than Unix and the transistor. Quote [1]:

"Researchers working at Bell Labs are credited with the development of radio astronomy, the transistor, the laser, the photovoltaic cell, the charge-coupled device (CCD), information theory, the Unix operating system, and the programming languages B, C, C++, and S. Nine Nobel Prizes have been awarded for work completed at Bell Laboratories."

Bell Labs was also a training ground for a great many people who went on to make highly impactful discoveries [2], from Hamming to Bengio.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs#Notable_alumni

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by EarthIsHome on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:09PM (#24324648)
> Bell Labs may not have been able to commercialize all of its discoveries, but humanity certainly got a lot more than Unix and the transistor.

This point illustrates that human benefits and profit do not always align. If we want to focus more on making things that benefit humanity, we have change our system that runs off of profit.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by wenc on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:11PM (#24325112)
I can't say I follow that logic.

It's true that human benefits and profit don't always align at all points of contact. They do align at some.

Hence I don't think it's true that for-profit systems that are not focused on "making things that benefit humanity" do not actually benefit humanity. Bell Labs clearly has, even though it has had a concomitant commercial objective.

Conversely, it is also not true that not-for-profit systems necessarily produce human benefits -- sure, they can, but not always.

I worked in an university applied research setting for close to a decade before joining industry. I can tell you the incentives and pressures to produce something that "works in practice" and is "commercializable" (whether it is actually done or not) is much greater in industry. Not-for-profit environments are better for long-range explorations with high failure rates and uncertain outcomes, i.e. basic research. For-profit environments are better at the discipline of producing applied knowledge (whether it is actually applied or not).

That said, Germany has a hybrid model called the Fraunhofer model (Fraunhofer Societies do applied research and is 70% funded by industry/government) which produced the MP3 standard. So there are alternatives. But I'm not convinced the industrial R&D model is fatally flawed.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by criddell on Sunday August 30, 2020 @10:20AM (#24323169)
I just finished reading Mitchell Waldrop's book The Dream Machines which is largely about J.C.R. Licklider and it has a lot of stories about the things Metcalfe is talking about during the 60's and 70's and into the 80's. It's a long, detailed book and I recommend it.

After finishing the book it made me feel like progress has slowed tremendously. Look at the changes from 1960 to 1970 or from 1970 to 1980 and compare that to 2010 to 2020. The last decade produced lots of incremental improvements but where are the giant technological shifts?

I was born in 1970 and if I look back over my life, the giant change was going from a non-networked world to a networked world. I think it's similar to how my grand parents could remember the world before and after commercial flight or how my great-grandmother remembered the arrival of automobiles.

I wonder what it is my kids will point to 40 years from now. A colony on the moon or Mars maybe?

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by akiselev on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:12PM (#24323755)
I wasn't around those earlier decades so I don't have that perspective, but I do remember the transition from dial up to Tracphones to smartphones and IMO the change hasn't slowed down, it's just become more distributed.

I recently designed a PCB for a custom built 3D printer for a tenth of the cost (fab + assembly) of a board of similar complexity I made nearly a decade ago and the final cost of the 3d printer (based on an open source design) was a 20th of the price of the Stratasys Dimension Elite I purchased, also a decade ago. One of my next projects is to make a DIY semiconductor fab using just TI DLP micromirrors and a microscope because I want to experiment with DIY bio microfluidics - all based on technology and knowledge so common that it has trickled down to the hobbyist level. We've now got people building electron microscopes and genetically modifying organisms in their garages!

The robots I've worked with in clinical diagnostics are much more advanced now than they were a decade ago and are now cheap enough for the average lab. The metrology instruments and machining tools necessary to make high precision parts have become commonplace at manufacturers, factory automation robotics like 6-DoF arms have trickled down to the researcher and hobbyist level in the last 5 years, and agriculture is currently going through it's n-th revolution with software, remote sensing, and data science.

Every time I leave an industry for a few years and come back, the pace of change is staggering - it's just hidden behind the iron curtain.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by jchallis on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:12PM (#24324674)
CRISPR is at least as big an innovation as the ones you mention. Perhaps you are biased to the areas where you have the most familiarity ?
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by criddell on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:31PM (#24325258)
I didn't think of CRISPR and related genomics work. It definitely has potential to change the world like commercial flight or the internet, but I don't think it has yet...

Definitely something I need to keep thinking about. Biology probably is the next area to see some giant advances like physics did 80 years ago.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by realityking on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:01PM (#24323682)
I think the most recent big shift, on a society level, was taking that networked world from our offices and homes to mobile devices. It‘s not exactly between 2010 and 2020 but definitely between 2000 and 2020.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by ghaff on Sunday August 30, 2020 @01:12PM (#24324188)
I'd say it started in a relatively primitive way around 2000 with mobile WAP, fairly widespread texting, etc. You then had Blackberries and Treos. It was around 2010 though that the iPhone (introduced 2007) was really taking off.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by one_electron on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:47AM (#24323605)
genuine question (asking because i have a biased perspective): why dont you consider advances in ai to be a major shift? in the past decade, there has been a rapid increase in capabilities in computer vision, language understanding, robotics, etc.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by opencl on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:37PM (#24324872)
The technology has advanced a lot but what major changes have these advances in AI really made to the average person's life? I can't think of any that are anywhere near as dramatic as the invention of cars/air travel/the internet/smartphones.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by Ericson2314 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @05:18PM (#24326006)
AI is largely used for surveillance and advertising. Great.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by criddell on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:29PM (#24325242)
AI researchers have been over-promising and under-delivering for 70 years now.

It seems like AI has settled into making discriminators. Maybe intelligence really is just pattern matching and grouping? I don't think it is, but I could be wrong.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by ghaff on Sunday August 30, 2020 @04:48PM (#24325822)
Many cognitive scientists would argue that it's also about building models which include statistical/Bayesian models but more than that.

To your broader point, it's not hard to find some specific domains of machine learning where there have been huge advances. But zoom out and look at the broader picture and the results aren't so impressive.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by petra on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:45PM (#24325381)
It doesn't seem that AI and robotics over-promise. Sure, we're not at AGI, but if you look at the potential(i.e. startups) to replace jobs, there are tons of that.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by criddell on Sunday August 30, 2020 @04:12PM (#24325555)
The same was said of expert systems in the 1980’s. Yes, there’s potential, but that potential hasn’t been realized yet. At least not to the point where people compare the impact of AI to the impact of semi-conductors and integrated circuits.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by petra on Monday August 31, 2020 @02:12AM (#24328915)
It will take time. Like every big innovation.

The question is: will the potential be fullfiled.

Maybe, given the many startups doing real work with machine learning(besides the many that just hype), it's reasonable to guess that that the potential Will be fullfiled.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by KKKKkkkk1 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:56AM (#24323655)
Metcalfe offers a very interesting conservative perspective. The article IMHO has a more convincing conservative counterpoint:

Labs, compared to university researchers, also maintain a constant link with delivering value and, ultimately, profitability. University incentive, prestige, and funding regimes suffer from the standard problems around non-profits: if you’re not trying to make profits, what are you trying to do? How do you know that what you’re doing is socially useful? Working without a profit signal can lead to deeply broken incentives systems and extremely wasteful admin burdens that weigh heavily on productivity, along with research that is in no way tied to improving human lives. Some estimates suggest that university scientists spend just a third of their time on active research. Historically, labs have seemed less prone to this problem.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by JoeAltmaier on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:58AM (#24323663)
The idea that a lab can know just where to put their efforts to be "socially useful" is questionable at best.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by wiz21c on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:08PM (#24323723)
> if you’re not trying to make profits, what are you trying to do ?

Like if working with a profit incentive is doing social good.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by gimmeThaBeet on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:24PM (#24323838)
My response has some holes in it, but my view there is that profit/value has a pretty good feedback mechanism that social good doesn't. If you are a normal business, your customers basically give you a mandate to continue, maybe even grow. It may be a substandard metric to control for with regards to society, but at least it is a control system. The mechanics of social benefit feel a lot more complicated, I don't really know how to sum them up in one way without just being like, "the government pays for things it finds beneficial".

The issue is that a valuable endeavor doesn't have to be good, e.g. maybe social media.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by HarryHirsch on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:34PM (#24323898)
This will be a bit poorly thought out, but the response goes like this: why invest in corporate R&D with uncertain returns when you can invest in index funds with guaranteed return?

The stock market is supported by ample goverment intervention, the rest of society not at all. Just consider the major stock market indices and compare that with continuing unemployment claims.

Now you have a feedback mechanism that supports investment banking at the expense of everything else, and here we are.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by JamesBarney on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:14PM (#24325140)
> The stock market is supported by ample goverment intervention, the rest of society not at all.

Mind clarifying this with specifics?

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by HarryHirsch on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:45PM (#24325378)
Have you looked at what the Federal Reserve has been buying since March? Compare that to the extra 600 dollars in unemployment benefits that ran out last month, and also consider the complete fuckedupness that the public health response has been in large tracts of the nation.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by sgt101 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:40PM (#24323947)
Ummh - Index funds definitely do not have guaranteed returns.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by HarryHirsch on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:51PM (#24324018)
There's "too big to fail" and network effects, can't let Bank of America or Boeing go bankrupt and wipe out shareholders, especially pension funds are major shareholders. There is so much government backstop going around that returns are certain.

Compare that to bringing a new pharmaceutical compound into the clinic. The time from discovery to approval is ten years, with a billion spent over the lifetime of the project, and the success rate is ~ 30 %, most compounds fail. For innovative projects this is compounded by the fact that you need to do target discovery and validation, something you can't patent but every competitor will make use of. No surprise the pace of innovation has slowed down.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by sgt101 on Monday August 31, 2020 @05:38AM (#24329779)
Crumbs - I've never heard anyone say "returns are certain" before everyone gets stripped, ever, in any financial setting.

Huge chunks of the indexes are now made up of a small handful of stocks, and as the stocks (FANNGS) go up so the indexes buy more, and guess what. They go up. And this will carry on, and on, until at some point a structural failure will occur. This may well be fraud, it may be government (not even the US government) intervention, it may be a supply chain failure or a market destruction. For example in November there may be a civil war in the USA... At that point the stocks will fall and if they fall disproportionately (which they will if the artificial pump that is floating them up turns off) then the indexes will unwind their positions... in fact they have to unwind. And this will glut the market, which will force more unwinding.

This is made worse by how the indexes actually track the market - you see, guess what! They (often) don't actually buy the stock! They trade synthetic securities over the movements of the stock with counterparties... and these counterparties never ever ever fail - they are solid players like investment banks, like Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, and Merrill Lynch and RBS. So - safe as houses.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by JamesBarney on Sunday August 30, 2020 @03:21PM (#24325186)
So making a profit most of the time means that you have 100,000 customers whose live are better off because of what you're doing.

Sometimes this breaks down because you make other people's lives worse in order to make the 100,000 better, i.e. externalities.

But continuing to get funding for doing a social good means you're convincing someone you're making someone's else's life better(i.e. nonprofits). The problem is sometimes this convincing is entirely unrelated to actually making people's lives better.

Or you're convincing a beaurocrat that you'll make his life better. And hopefully the incentive structures are aligned such that this involves making someone's else's life better. But this can be incredibly tricky with the layers of reporting up to some political appointee who reports to a politician who reports to the people. And any break in incentives or more likely attention along the way can misalign the work with social good.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by thu2111 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:04PM (#24324612)
It's pretty close. The idea that profits and social good are opposites was tested to destruction by communism. Profits mean that at least some people, somewhere, find your work more than worth the effort in a very real sense (they gave up some money to get it).

Social good is undefined, so it ends up meaning whatever the speaker wants it to mean. Lots of university professors think critical theory is socially good, and lots more people strongly disagree. There's no actual way to resolve that dispute because academia is disconnected from any kind of reality check.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by Rochetshipz on Sunday August 30, 2020 @05:47PM (#24326200)
The whole interview (multiple hours) is fascinating, like a good episode of "On the Metal". Heavy recommend for people interested in CS history and Innovation.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by jjcon on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:27AM (#24323499)
In the US at least (less so here in the EU) a ton of scientific research is funded and performed with funds earmarked for national security, health and defense (often just called the military budget). That money goes to way more than just pure military though.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by kilroy123 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:02PM (#24323690)
I could not agree more with this. I'm very concerned because China has been ramping up their R&D spending while the US has been decreasing, at a time we need to be increasing.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by rowanG077 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @11:25AM (#24323484)
It sounds almost comical. "Other than the transistor". The transistor is one of the most important inventions humanity ever made.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by whateveracct on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:04PM (#24323701)
tbh the fallacy is thinking that invention is unique to the inventor

because the transistor is so fundamental, we probably could've worked towards it in hundreds of different ways than Bell Labs

but that's a big thing in tech circles - thinking a person or entity doing some technical feat is somehow a sign that they are otherworldly

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by ColanR on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:52PM (#24324031)
That's really easy to say in retrospect, just like it's easy to say any major discovery was inevitable after we've already discovered it.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by HarryHirsch on Sunday August 30, 2020 @01:13PM (#24324191)
But it is really like that. It depends on the groundwork that's there, technical capabilities and tooling. Once that's in place it only takes a lucky guy to pluck the discovery out of the air.

Consider dual-space methods in crystallography. Herb Hauptman is credited with the discovery. My undergraduate advisor obliquely mentioned that he had done something similar in 1986 - obtain atom positions from direct methods, then do a few cycles of tangent refinement from the highest peaks. It reduces map noise considerably.

Computers were simply too slow at that time to use this as a general method of solving 1000-atom structures, so the approach remained an afterthought. But the possibilities were noted once the computing power was there.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by rowanG077 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @01:48PM (#24324496)
It is like that. But simply discoveries being delayed could delay technical advancement for decades and even centuries in the long run.
Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by ColanR on Sunday August 30, 2020 @07:00PM (#24326741)
The problem is, that lucky guy can take an indefinitely long time to show up.

I heard recently about the Scythe Project. Apparently, the scythe was never invented in some places, including India. That's a long time for the lucky guy to never show up.

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by obastani on Sunday August 30, 2020 @07:38PM (#24326966)
According to Wikipedia [1], the transistor was independently rediscovered by two German physicists just a year later (1948).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor#History

Re:The rise and fall of the industrial R&D lab by rowanG077 on Sunday August 30, 2020 @12:10PM (#24323741)
Probably yes. But let's say the transistor would have been invented 20 years later by a university. The world would look completely different today. Simply saying we could have invented it some other way disregards the continous impact a result in research makes.