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Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by Anthony-G on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:10AM (#22557646)
> The soap dissolves the fat membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and "dies", or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive.

I always presumed that viruses, similar to other microorganisms, are alive. Until reading the above quote, I had never considered the idea there was any question about this. I was intrigued by the concept that they many not really be alive so looked up the Wikipedia article [1] which says that

> Viruses are considered by some to be a life form, because they carry genetic material, reproduce, and evolve through natural selection, although they lack key characteristics (such as cell structure) that are generally considered necessary to count as life. Because they possess some but not all such qualities, viruses have been described as "organisms at the edge of life", and as replicators.

One of the Wikipedia references is Are viruses alive? The replicator paradigm sheds decisive light on an old but misguided question [2] which looks at different replication mechanisms as a continuum rather than a simple “life vs non-life” dichotomy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5406846/

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by twic on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:51PM (#22559620)
As a biochemist, i think it's absolutely clear that viruses are not alive, because they don't do anything. No metabolism, no signalling, no changes in structure, no use of energy or materials. They just float about! It's only when they encounter a cell that anything happens, and then it's mostly the cell's machinery doing it.

If i was a molecular biologist, i would probably think it was absolutely clear that viruses are alive, because they contain a genome, and proteins encoded by the genome, and they use the proteins to make more copies of the genome. What else is life?

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by whalabi on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:07PM (#22561184)
I'm of the opinion that whether something is alive or not is arbitrary, and depends on your definition. Humans just came up with the word to describe a class of things.

You could define biological life in a way that includes or excludes viruses, I would suggest, and be right either way.

(Also if a biological virus is alive, is a computer virus alive? It's self-replicating and has DNA in the form of code.)

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by Gibbon1 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:15PM (#22561265)
I have three tests for what's alive and what's not. Those are from most fundamental to least.

Fundamentally life is a thermodynamic machine. Takes energy and converts a portion of it to 'work'.

Under homeostatic control. There are feedback systems that maintain the integrity of the organism.

In theory has a way of reproducing. This more applies to the species as a whole. Since individuals incapable of reproducing are none the less alive.

Viruses only meet the last and weaker criteria in my book.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by undersuit on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:49PM (#22560310)
The virus isn't the lifeform. The virus is just one component needed for the lifeform to exist and reproduce. The lifeform is the infection.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by pas on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:03PM (#22560500)
So the lifeform is the disease? I think assigning "lifeform" status to an illness is not really helpful.

Viruses are just replicators. Grey/Green/Brown/Bio goo. They are just dumb machines made by brute-forcing (fuzzing) more complex machines' immune systems.

Viruses might be a different branch on the RNA-replicator tree. Probably when the first replicators started some found - again via brute-forced mutations - that there are some replicators that they can take advantage of to replicate themselves.

And it just seems that closing this security hole is neigh impossible as long as we don't start to seriously tinker with that low level of "life" (eg. cellular machinery, transport, nucleus, messenger and transcription security).

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by akiselev on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:50PM (#22564009)
> Viruses might be a different branch on the RNA-replicator tree. Probably when the first replicators started some found - again via brute-forced mutations - that there are some replicators that they can take advantage of to replicate themselves.

One of the dominant theories for how eukaryotic organisms evolved (and by extension multicellular life) is by incorporating viruses and other prokaryotes internally and there's evidence a variety of viruses permanently entered the gene pool of several animals that were theoretically naturally selected for. It's less a branch and more a mobius rat's nest.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by undersuit on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:15PM (#22561263)
> They are just dumb machines made by brute-forcing (fuzzing)

But that's no different how the rest of biology works. A parasite like Giardia is relatively just a dumb machine brute forcing itself through my immune system.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by pas on Friday March 13, 2020 @09:41AM (#22567162)
No, no, of course not. You're right. The same exploitation of complexity-difference can be observed all the way up the hierarchy. But that doesn't make it "living". (Or if you define liveness on a spectrum, like we sort of do with sentience/consciousness, then viruses are alive like rust is conscious.)

It's very likely an invariant of complexity. Trade offs (and friendly turtles) all the way. And of course evolution doesn't optimize for QALY at all. So it's not surprising that it hasn't really spent much resources on closing the gap. And now we try to do it because we do find it a better goal than "just" thriving in every imaginable niche on whatever complexity it's possible. (We want to maintain our complexity plus occupy more niches.)

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by filleduchaos on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:05PM (#22563772)
I think you are narrowing on one phrase and ignoring all of the context around it, which is generally not very conducive to understanding a speaker's point.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by Paul-ish on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:08PM (#22560553)
Physically, what constitutes the infection?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by undersuit on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:19PM (#22561298)
The viral RNA, whatever the viral RNA is producing, and whatever components of the cell are directly working on the new viruses. There are intracellular parasites, a viral infection is just an intracellular parasite... that doesn't have a definite boundary like a cell membrane.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mratsim on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:08PM (#22560552)
interesting point of view
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by undersuit on Thursday March 12, 2020 @06:55PM (#22562862)
I think I came around to that way of thinking after reading about multi-part viruses: https://www.the-scientist.com/the-nutshell/newly-discovered-...
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by twic on Friday March 13, 2020 @05:31AM (#22565895)
See also adeno-associated viruses, which can only replicate in a cell which has been infected by another virus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adeno-associated_virus#Infecti...

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by achillesheels on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:58PM (#22560422)
This is the key point I think: viruses have no metabolism. There is no stable energy transfer with their environment. Their genomic feedback does not promote metabolic growth (ie greater energy transmission rates).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by chmike on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:11PM (#22559839)
A virus is not able to reproduce itself on its own. Because of that I don't consider virus as a life form. I'm biologist, in case it matters.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by SigmundA on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:24PM (#22559985)
I cannot reproduce on my own, I need a mate and food and water and air to properly reproduce, that is most life is dependent on its environment to survive including other organisms depending on their needs.

A virus needs a host like any parasite, without the host many parasites would not be able to reproduce.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by akiselev on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:58PM (#22564049)
On a technical level, whether something can reproduce by itself or not is defined by whether they use their own chemical machinery to produce the offspring, such as when a cell divides itself or organisms produce their own gametes.

To be pedantic, all you need is at most two (or three, maybe?) of the right gender to reproduce in a vacuum (metaphorically) to make it a living organism. A virus can't reproduce with another virus that way because it can't do anything on its own other than float around waiting for a host, no matter how many strains you mix it with. The host does the actual reproducing for the virus.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by kazinator on Friday March 13, 2020 @11:16AM (#22567918)
Indeed; the virus being reproduced is just a side effect of the cell making reproducing actions.

Cells can repeatedly produce certain proteins. For instance, a silkworm can spin out a thread of silk. That doesn't meant that molecules of silk are alive because they are reproducing.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by SigmundA on Friday March 13, 2020 @01:07PM (#22568959)
Silk doesn't go on and reproduce through another silk worm once made its complete.

Any parasite that requires its host for reproduction could be said to be a byproduct of the host continuing its biological functions usually at the expense of the host.

Nature draws no clear lines, humans apply taxonomy, any line we draw about what is alive and what isn't will be arbitrary.

My opinion is a virus is alive as it core process is based on how all life on earth operates through DNA/RNA. That is my arbitrary line, a distinct self contained genetic code that continues to replicate and evolve is alive. If that code can no longer continue replicating successfully it is dead.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by kazinator on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:15PM (#22563828)
A virus by itself does not perform any biological functions whatsoever; it just alters the course of events in a host cell.

Potassium cyanide can alter what happens in a cell; that doesn't mean potassium cyanide is alive.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by uoaei on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:36PM (#22560145)
Humans aren't either. We need food and water and a hospitable environment to get to a point where we can do that.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by undersuit on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:46PM (#22560278)
I think that's a pretty good analogy. Viruses are just as incapable of being considered life as our chromosomes are, until you give them a support network.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by filleduchaos on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:06PM (#22563776)
This is a confusion of _can_ and _will_.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by twic on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:32PM (#22560089)
Are lichen fungi life forms?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by stjohnswarts on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:42PM (#22564524)
Not unlike prions? which have some qualities of "life" but really can't be considered as such?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by koeng on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:26AM (#22557816)
I work with some groups trying to build synthetic cells, and honestly there isn’t even a good definition for what a “cell” is or what “life” is in the scientific communities. The best proxy I can come up with, which is universally true on earth, is that life is anything that fully encodes ribosomes and can replicate (there aren’t any discovered exceptions to that yet, though some are close). Very intellectually unsatisfying, but so far factually true for anything generally considered “living”.

Evolution/competition between ribosome encoding and capsid encoding organisms[1] has driven a lot of cool stuff to be developed: for example, bacteria and archaea (+ eukaryotes) gained DNA separately (presumably from viral infection) and retroviruses enables placentas.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19845628/

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by azeirah on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:32AM (#22557868)
It reminds me of a philosophy class where the goal is to find an accurate and all-capturing definition of what a chair is.

It is tremendously difficult, perhaps impossible.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by politelemon on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:01PM (#22558177)
I just tried to come up with a definition and I feel like I'm almost there but not quite.

A chair is something you can sit on (but you can also sit on a rock)

&& it has a backrest (but the foot of a tree serves as a backrest)

&& it elevates you off the floor (but not all chairs take you above floor level very much)

&& it is manmade.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:44PM (#22558722)
I believe the correct approach is by looking at purpose, and more importantly primary purpose, rather than try to describe the chair itself.

Eg, a chair is any object whose primary purpose is to sit a single individual

If it's meant to seat multiple people, it's a bench, a sofa, etc, but not a chair

If it's meant to be extra comfortable, it might be a single-seat sofa, but this itself a chair

If it's a rock, but positioned such that it's primary purpose is to sit an individual, such as next to a table, then it's a chair.

And most notably, primary purpose is subjective -- it might be understood as a chair, or as a doorstop, depending on your viewpoint, and what you use it for.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by notJim on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:50PM (#22558791)
What about stools? I don't consider a stool to be a chair, I consider them two subtypes of seating. If someone told me to grab a chair and gestured to a stool I'd find it very slightly odd.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:19PM (#22559917)
Fine

To sit an individual at close to, or at, a right angle in regards to their legs

A small rock versus a big rock; Approximating a squat, or standing, is out of bounds

But a stool may consistute a chair when sitting a child

Regardless, I'm mainly talking about the approach to defining it, and that definition by purpose rather than structure is more likely to find a correct definition, not that my example definition is sufficient

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by umvi on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:10PM (#22559063)
> a chair is any object whose primary purpose is to sit a single individual

So is a zabuton[1] a chair?

[1] https://www.dharmacrafts.com/01_zb/zabuton-mat

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mamon on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:23PM (#22560715)
what if we add: "with one's feet firmly on the ground and legs bent at knee at more or less right angle?"
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by wizzwizz4 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:57PM (#22561078)
Highchair.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by angel_rs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:20PM (#22558398)
Now you have to find an accurate and all-capturing definition to all the terms you used (manmade, floor, backrest, ...)

It's a game you cannot win.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by com2kid on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:38PM (#22558654)
Plenty of ergonomic chairs don't have a backrest.

There are also ergo chairs that you "kneel" on instead!

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ken on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#22558809)
This would classify a Honda Goldwing as a chair, but exclude the Balans kneeling chair.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by namanyayg on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:04PM (#22558211)
Also applies to a Sofa
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:14PM (#22558313)
Now I'm doubting if car seats are chairs too...
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by hhjinks on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:10PM (#22558265)
What is a sofa if not shared chair?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by d4mi3n on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:24PM (#22558462)
A chair is anything used as a chair. :)

EDIT: Addendum: It may also be worth asking what definition of truth you're using if we're going to be getting into philosophical arguments about what things are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by scoutt on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#22558640)
And what about an expression like "accounting department chair"?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by msla on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:24PM (#22559276)
An accident of the English language; some people would insist on "chairperson" there, and some older people might still insist on "chairman" but that's becoming less and less acceptable over time. As an even better example, there's "fluke":

1. A fish, and a flatworm.

2. The end parts of an anchor.

3. The fins on a whale's tail.

4. A stroke of luck.

The meanings are etymologically distinct (for the most part) and it's only chance they ended up wit the same spelling and pronunciation.

If that's philosophically troublesome, linguistics is not for you.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by klodolph on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:51PM (#22558794)
There’s a bit of leeway here, since that’s the word used in a different sense. But I would say that if you ask someone to “define what a chair is” that the word is being used in one sense only, compared to what happens when you ask someone to “define what ‘chair’ means” which is about the word.

That is, when we refer to a word like “chair” we use quotes, but without the quotes, we can say that an accounting department chair is not a chair.

Alternatively, we could analyze “accounting department chair” as a use of metonymy.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#22558811)
limited namespace conflict? Same word, different abstract concept than the chair under question
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by tux1968 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:10PM (#22559064)
I always assumed it came by naming the person who sat in the special seat after the seat itself.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by klodolph on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:20PM (#22559218)
This has a name! It’s called “metonymy.” It’s incredibly common in casual speech and poses unique challenges for natural language processing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:57PM (#22561087)
that might be the case but the person himself is not an object to be sat upon (though this may be true metaphorically... hopefully not literally).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by selectodude on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:50PM (#22560339)
“The person that sits in the chair generally used by the head of the accounting department” :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ashton314 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:43PM (#22559524)
So the world is… duck typed? :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by sosborn on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:56AM (#22558111)
That exercise makes me feel like too many people believe that accurate == perfect.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by angel_rs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:46AM (#22558023)
The boundary between "life" and "not life" has some fascinating organisms/structures[0]:

  Virions
  Viroids
  Satellites
  Prions
  Defective interfering particles (DIPs)
I would also add t-RNA[1] to that list. It can almost replicate by itself, and sits right in the middle between "data" (DNA/RNA) and "code" (a small machine that can selectively hold an amino acid)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_classification#Subviral_...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_RNA

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by exabrial on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:50AM (#22558062)
Prions are the things of nightmares. Good god, I wish I never read up on them.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by djtriptych on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:17PM (#22558361)
They're the strange matter of the biological world :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mncharity on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:24PM (#22559978)
>> viruses [...] are alive. Until reading the above quote, I had never considered the idea there was any question about this.

> in the scientific communities

"Is it alive? <long property checklist> Yes/No" is an example of K-12 science education content diverging from science community practice. Both by emphasizing a little used concept, and by being inconsistent with community use.

With bonus points for it being... widely taught; taught as if it were science; an unnecessary hook for learning a set of properties; and an incoherently unfruitful predicate.

I don't know if there's a real name for such? I call them science-education-isms.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by slavik81 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:41PM (#22562106)
The categorization of life and non-life is the first step in taxonomy, which was historically based on long property checklists. I think it may be more the case that advances in biology have changed the science. The emphasis moved from stamp collecting to modelling as we acquired better tools and a deeper understanding of biological processes. Education just got left behind.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mncharity on Friday March 13, 2020 @06:13PM (#22571328)
Interesting idea. I wonder how one might easily explore it?

Google trends has data to 2004. "living nonliving"[1], aside from being a school-year detector, seems to show a 3x increase in the 2010's?

I'll also link [2], but I don't know what to make of it.

[1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=living%2... [2] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=living+and+non...

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by achillesheels on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:06PM (#22560529)
I’d love to connect with you. I’ve been developing a discrete time control systems model of the central dogma as a signal processor of environmental EM radiation (eg heat).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by glouwbug on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:47AM (#22558036)
So would that younger than a fetus be considered life?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:15PM (#22558333)
Bacteria are considered life and you kill them by the thousands daily. You meant conscious life?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:49PM (#22558785)
It is sometimes useful to remember that lines are drawn by the human mind, they are not an inherent property of the universe.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by Digit-Al on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:58PM (#22560417)
True, but ultimately of no consequence to the discussion in hand. Nothing we say or do is of consequence to the universe, but they matter to us. Ultimately, these lines are drawn for our benefit, not the universe's.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by cogman10 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:17AM (#22557729)
In my highschool biology class (that makes me an expert... right? :) ) The definition of life included self replication and, IIRC, having some sort of metabolism. The reason my biology book classified viruses as not alive is simply because they are incapable of self replication and they don't really have a metabolism to speak of (Old viruses are still infectious).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by SigmundA on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:26PM (#22560004)
Wait I can't self replicate...
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mcv on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:14AM (#22557691)
Virus behave like life in some ways. They're made out of the building blocks of life, and are indeed subject to evolution. But they don't absorb nutrients and don't reproduce themselves. They are created by the cells they infect.

But it's a thin line, and it depends on which definition you want to use.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by AgloeDreams on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:27AM (#22557828)
I have come to view them (from a programer's sense) kinda like functions and stateless services compared to living life which is like classes and other state-y things. It can change classes, it can be mutated and overridden, but does not think or act on its self, it must be interacted with.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by CuriousSkeptic on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#22558813)
Interesting. I also have a programmers model. But in my head the virus is the static artifact, the code. While what’s living is the process interpreting that code.

Or rather SARS-CoV-2 is the nonliving static code. COVID-19 is the “living” process interpreting the code.

Or your DNA is the code, you’re the living process interpreting that code.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by wizzwizz4 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:04PM (#22561154)
My take: DNA (in a suitable environment) is a self-hosted DNA interpreter executing code to regulate its own environment via RNA JIT bytecode compilation. Viruses are… well, viruses.

The CPU, in this analogy, is physics.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by al3xandre on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:13PM (#22558298)
If virus are alive, then internet memes are alive. —They reproduce not by themselves but by infecting other organisms -- They evolve / mutate
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:18PM (#22558374)
Come on, we're getting too philosophical. Viruses have genes, internet memes are just ideas.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by al3xandre on Friday March 13, 2020 @12:42AM (#22564796)
What difference is there between information stored as proteins in a chains or as bytes on hard drive / neuron configuration in your brain.

We just got used to the DNA=life, but is this a valid assumption?

Some exotic lifeforms could encode their self-defining information on silicium magnetic polarisation, electron spin or whatever. And you would call them life if they were standing and moving in an animal-like way.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mcv on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:40PM (#22558678)
Do you know where the word meme comes from?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:47PM (#22560284)
Of course, and that reinforces their status of imaginary genes.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by emiliobumachar on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:06PM (#22559796)
I didn't read The Selfish Gene, the book that coined the term "meme", but I heard that it mostly explores that analogy, for a much broader definition of meme.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by extropy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:29PM (#22558520)
Random analogy - is a flash drive a computer?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by dukha on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:17PM (#22559167)
Certainly. It does compute and without computation property it will be not possible to store and retrieve information.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by nitrogen on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:14PM (#22559127)
A flash drive often contains a microprocessor/microcontroller which could be programmed to do more on its own
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by stoicShell on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:27AM (#22557825)
I, for one, as a human being whose root ancestors¹ infected planet Earth² which eventually produced me³, am will to use a definition that qualifies viruses as very much alive. ;-)

____

Tangentially related, I sympathize with Earth parasite Musk who wishes for us to infect another cell— err, I mean, planet. Shoosh, Earth, back to sleep, nothing to see here...

____

[1]: I wonder who's the chicken, here. Certainly, the virus is the egg, right? It's all a plan to engineer the actual masters of this universe?

[2]: A long, long time ago...

[3]: Well, the 10% of my weight with my DNA. I feel more like an ecosystem, I am a legion of species, a myriad DNAs, we are millions in those guts. "I" is not even the same "I" when travelling to a different biome: you are what you eat, quite literally, however you want to spin that idea.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by patcon on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:32PM (#22560806)
EDIT: also a biochemist in a previous life.

If viruses are on the edge of alive, then books and posters might be too, in some sense.

Virus's are "life" without replication machinery. And what is a book but a similar sort of dormant form, without the fertile replication machinery of the [human] mind to remix it and help its ideas fuck with other ideas. This view of viruses and words as life perhaps isn't as wrong as it first sounds, and some linguists on the fringes argue that language is more like a semiotic symbiont that has "moved into" our biology, specifically our neural structures, like a creature moving into an ecological niche and modifying it to suit its purposes. Or as I prefer to think about it: maybe we're already cyborgs straddling structures of biology and semiotics. (See: The Leiden School of Language[1]).

Maybe humans are just the first example of this language portion of our organism starting to venture cautiously outside of our biology, like astronauts exploring outside spaceship corpus ;) Reality might be pretty weird imho, and hard to see for what it truly is.

[1]: https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=_ind5AbdQaAC&oi=f...

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by m_eiman on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:18AM (#22557744)
They're like memes, I suppose. Cannot live on their own, but replicate like mad when the circumstances are right.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by wool_gather on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:32AM (#22557873)
You've formed a funny circle: the concept of a meme was explained by analogy to a virus when it was introduced. (In The Selfish Gene.)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by captain_crabs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:26AM (#22557818)
A kind of concerning thought: who's to say there aren't higher-level versions of this same concept playing out? Say we figure out the nature of consciousness and are able to effectively interact with it's "thinginess." Then we find: there are things in our universe that're semi-conscious, but feed and replicate on/inside/with the consciousness of others and are incapable of existing on their own.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by dnautics on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:22AM (#22557770)
The ontology on those concepts goes in the other direction.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by jacobush on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:32AM (#22557874)
I don't understand. :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by asadkn on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:38AM (#22557946)
You mean they go viral?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by aloknnikhil on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:26AM (#22557821)
Time for Kurzgesagt (What is life?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOCaacO8wus
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by extropy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:36PM (#22558629)
+1 the old homeostasis argument. In that regard viruses are definitely life.

Maybe they actually are vastly superior to us and the hosts are just their air to breathe.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by openfuture on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:06PM (#22559797)
In Icelandic the word for life is "líf", there is also another word "eilíf" which is concatenated from "ei" meaning "not" and "líf" meaning "life". This word means "eternal".

Therefore: The definition of life is "not eternal" (if you assume the law of excluded middle - actually the definition of "eternal" is "not life" :)