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Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by koeng on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:26AM (#22557816)
I work with some groups trying to build synthetic cells, and honestly there isn’t even a good definition for what a “cell” is or what “life” is in the scientific communities. The best proxy I can come up with, which is universally true on earth, is that life is anything that fully encodes ribosomes and can replicate (there aren’t any discovered exceptions to that yet, though some are close). Very intellectually unsatisfying, but so far factually true for anything generally considered “living”.

Evolution/competition between ribosome encoding and capsid encoding organisms[1] has driven a lot of cool stuff to be developed: for example, bacteria and archaea (+ eukaryotes) gained DNA separately (presumably from viral infection) and retroviruses enables placentas.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19845628/

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by azeirah on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:32AM (#22557868)
It reminds me of a philosophy class where the goal is to find an accurate and all-capturing definition of what a chair is.

It is tremendously difficult, perhaps impossible.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by politelemon on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:01PM (#22558177)
I just tried to come up with a definition and I feel like I'm almost there but not quite.

A chair is something you can sit on (but you can also sit on a rock)

&& it has a backrest (but the foot of a tree serves as a backrest)

&& it elevates you off the floor (but not all chairs take you above floor level very much)

&& it is manmade.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:44PM (#22558722)
I believe the correct approach is by looking at purpose, and more importantly primary purpose, rather than try to describe the chair itself.

Eg, a chair is any object whose primary purpose is to sit a single individual

If it's meant to seat multiple people, it's a bench, a sofa, etc, but not a chair

If it's meant to be extra comfortable, it might be a single-seat sofa, but this itself a chair

If it's a rock, but positioned such that it's primary purpose is to sit an individual, such as next to a table, then it's a chair.

And most notably, primary purpose is subjective -- it might be understood as a chair, or as a doorstop, depending on your viewpoint, and what you use it for.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by notJim on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:50PM (#22558791)
What about stools? I don't consider a stool to be a chair, I consider them two subtypes of seating. If someone told me to grab a chair and gestured to a stool I'd find it very slightly odd.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:19PM (#22559917)
Fine

To sit an individual at close to, or at, a right angle in regards to their legs

A small rock versus a big rock; Approximating a squat, or standing, is out of bounds

But a stool may consistute a chair when sitting a child

Regardless, I'm mainly talking about the approach to defining it, and that definition by purpose rather than structure is more likely to find a correct definition, not that my example definition is sufficient

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by umvi on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:10PM (#22559063)
> a chair is any object whose primary purpose is to sit a single individual

So is a zabuton[1] a chair?

[1] https://www.dharmacrafts.com/01_zb/zabuton-mat

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mamon on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:23PM (#22560715)
what if we add: "with one's feet firmly on the ground and legs bent at knee at more or less right angle?"
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by wizzwizz4 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:57PM (#22561078)
Highchair.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by angel_rs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:20PM (#22558398)
Now you have to find an accurate and all-capturing definition to all the terms you used (manmade, floor, backrest, ...)

It's a game you cannot win.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by com2kid on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:38PM (#22558654)
Plenty of ergonomic chairs don't have a backrest.

There are also ergo chairs that you "kneel" on instead!

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ken on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#22558809)
This would classify a Honda Goldwing as a chair, but exclude the Balans kneeling chair.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by namanyayg on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:04PM (#22558211)
Also applies to a Sofa
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:14PM (#22558313)
Now I'm doubting if car seats are chairs too...
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by hhjinks on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:10PM (#22558265)
What is a sofa if not shared chair?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by d4mi3n on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:24PM (#22558462)
A chair is anything used as a chair. :)

EDIT: Addendum: It may also be worth asking what definition of truth you're using if we're going to be getting into philosophical arguments about what things are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by scoutt on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#22558640)
And what about an expression like "accounting department chair"?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by msla on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:24PM (#22559276)
An accident of the English language; some people would insist on "chairperson" there, and some older people might still insist on "chairman" but that's becoming less and less acceptable over time. As an even better example, there's "fluke":

1. A fish, and a flatworm.

2. The end parts of an anchor.

3. The fins on a whale's tail.

4. A stroke of luck.

The meanings are etymologically distinct (for the most part) and it's only chance they ended up wit the same spelling and pronunciation.

If that's philosophically troublesome, linguistics is not for you.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by klodolph on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:51PM (#22558794)
There’s a bit of leeway here, since that’s the word used in a different sense. But I would say that if you ask someone to “define what a chair is” that the word is being used in one sense only, compared to what happens when you ask someone to “define what ‘chair’ means” which is about the word.

That is, when we refer to a word like “chair” we use quotes, but without the quotes, we can say that an accounting department chair is not a chair.

Alternatively, we could analyze “accounting department chair” as a use of metonymy.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#22558811)
limited namespace conflict? Same word, different abstract concept than the chair under question
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by tux1968 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:10PM (#22559064)
I always assumed it came by naming the person who sat in the special seat after the seat itself.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by klodolph on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:20PM (#22559218)
This has a name! It’s called “metonymy.” It’s incredibly common in casual speech and poses unique challenges for natural language processing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by setr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:57PM (#22561087)
that might be the case but the person himself is not an object to be sat upon (though this may be true metaphorically... hopefully not literally).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by selectodude on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:50PM (#22560339)
“The person that sits in the chair generally used by the head of the accounting department” :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ashton314 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:43PM (#22559524)
So the world is… duck typed? :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by sosborn on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:56AM (#22558111)
That exercise makes me feel like too many people believe that accurate == perfect.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by angel_rs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:46AM (#22558023)
The boundary between "life" and "not life" has some fascinating organisms/structures[0]:

  Virions
  Viroids
  Satellites
  Prions
  Defective interfering particles (DIPs)
I would also add t-RNA[1] to that list. It can almost replicate by itself, and sits right in the middle between "data" (DNA/RNA) and "code" (a small machine that can selectively hold an amino acid)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_classification#Subviral_...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_RNA

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by exabrial on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:50AM (#22558062)
Prions are the things of nightmares. Good god, I wish I never read up on them.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by djtriptych on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:17PM (#22558361)
They're the strange matter of the biological world :)
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mncharity on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:24PM (#22559978)
>> viruses [...] are alive. Until reading the above quote, I had never considered the idea there was any question about this.

> in the scientific communities

"Is it alive? <long property checklist> Yes/No" is an example of K-12 science education content diverging from science community practice. Both by emphasizing a little used concept, and by being inconsistent with community use.

With bonus points for it being... widely taught; taught as if it were science; an unnecessary hook for learning a set of properties; and an incoherently unfruitful predicate.

I don't know if there's a real name for such? I call them science-education-isms.

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by slavik81 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:41PM (#22562106)
The categorization of life and non-life is the first step in taxonomy, which was historically based on long property checklists. I think it may be more the case that advances in biology have changed the science. The emphasis moved from stamp collecting to modelling as we acquired better tools and a deeper understanding of biological processes. Education just got left behind.
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by mncharity on Friday March 13, 2020 @06:13PM (#22571328)
Interesting idea. I wonder how one might easily explore it?

Google trends has data to 2004. "living nonliving"[1], aside from being a school-year detector, seems to show a 3x increase in the 2010's?

I'll also link [2], but I don't know what to make of it.

[1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=living%2... [2] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=living+and+non...

Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by achillesheels on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:06PM (#22560529)
I’d love to connect with you. I’ve been developing a discrete time control systems model of the central dogma as a signal processor of environmental EM radiation (eg heat).
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by glouwbug on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:47AM (#22558036)
So would that younger than a fetus be considered life?
Re:Why soap works so well on most viruses by ASalazarMX on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:15PM (#22558333)
Bacteria are considered life and you kill them by the thousands daily. You meant conscious life?