We need to come up with a better way to (automatically) hobble this nonsense, probably at the os level.

It is not in consumer products, period. Unless you are paying me for this information (in actual money, not discounts, not services) telemetry should be banned.

Like all those “We value your opinion” customer feedback surveys. Yeah, you value it at $0.

If you have two feature-equal printers, but one doing data-collecting and $5 cheaper than the other, which one do you think will be sold out first?

I wish that manufacturers be forced to also show default/required data requirements on their products similar to how they already display minimum/recommended hardware requirements. This would at least increase consumer awareness of the issue, at best maybe abolish it entirely...

Force manufacturers to allow third party ink and to disclose data collection and you get a much different, better for the consumer, printer market.

So it's helpful when it's someone else's problem?

It is not helpful when the absence of competition forces you to accept one devil or another and little power (or time) to understand how your information is being gathered and used.

So what do you propose then? Every website have a paywall and block poor people?

If you aren't interested in sharing information without selling visitors data, your service isn't viable without charge, or nobody is willing to pay you, everybody is probably better off without what you're trying to offer.

I suppose the big problem is that everyone gets into the data broker business when they get big enough these days. It fundamentally changes the expectations of your relationship with the company.

It's a lot like the Vizio/Samsung/etc Smart TV privacy fiasco. Back when you bought a $699 21" Zenith tube television, their business model was transparently "we make and sell televisions." The up-front cost was sufficient that they weren't too concerned with a trickle lifetime recurring revenue. There's no real place in that business model to focus on a data gathering side hustle, and you as a consumer had no reason to think they'd be interested that you kept the knob on UHF all night.

Similarly, if HP's business model is legitimately selling printers and printer accessories, there's very little information they need but are not getting from their existing "what retailers order for restock" and "direct sales and ink-as-a-service" channels. Even the obnoxious personalized 'you print lots of photos, buy our photo paper' ad doesn't require remote data submission; you could calculate it on the fly locally and pop up a banner, just like with 'you've printed 29 pages, time for a new cartridge!" I could see system and document info for crash log purposes, but even that's a one-time permission request you can make on demand.

I guess what's amazing is how much the tail has come to wag the dog-- they'd rather creep out people and run the risk people finding out losing the $100-plus-years-of-expensive-consumable sale in order to get that sweet sweet consumer-profile data worth a few dozen cents per-user in quantity.

Honestly, I want to replace my arthritic LaserJet 5 with something offering duplexing and more than four real-world pages per minute, but new printers seem to be doing everything they can to be a distasteful purchase instead of an exciting one.

Its on my plate to make a go at it, with some inspiration from pihole. But really it'd be about enabling myself to use some of this great data without sharing it with a third party.

For example, I'd wear my fitbit if it wasn't reporting in to their servers. But if I force my phone through a VPN, which routes through my transparent proxy, I could feed fitbit junk data while scraping the pieces I want to my own system.

We need apps that take control of these devices and their telemetry away from the third parties.

On my Android, (sadly without root) I use NetGuard for similar purposes. I blanket disallow google for many apps. I allow carte blanch to my personal servers for apps that I use, but any telemetry of theirs is stonewalled.

In Firefox I use containers to separate FB/Twitter to their own hole, while I blacklist them in uMatrix for every other circumstance.

That said, things like doubleclick and crashlytics are fine to be black listed throughout a network.

My thoughts were more targeted toward a properly sandboxed os that gives users the chance to control on a port/ hostname level what is being connected to.

I do both.

I run a firewall on my phone mostly to prevent applications from communicating out without my express permission. I also don't turn on my phone's radios without connecting to a VPN that I run at home, so that all of my phone's traffic gets routed through the defenses I've set up for my home network.

On top of that, I avoid using the web on mobile devices to the greatest degree possible.

I know there is a Linux (python?) client that will sync (at least some models of fitbit) to their cloud service. But I've no idea if there is one that will dump the data locally. It's entirely possible that the cloud client is merely passing along an opaque blob.

I was responding to a comment that was talking about creating Free Software to communicate with the device, specifically the idea of proxying access to the corporate server and modifying the communication, rather than implementing the whole protocol from scratch.

I'd guess the Fitbit protocol is encrypted, from a desire to keep people from cheating their activity reports. If a company wants to spend the development time, there is basically nothing that can be done to prevent a device requiring Internet access on a dumb-pipe all-or-nothing basis.

Personally, I'm less concerned about privacy of DNS queries than the loss of control and need to have another centralised third-party in the process.

Mozilla I don't understand. The most likely explanation appears to be that they are still in a catch-up-to-Chrome mindset, which is a disservice to themselves and their community.

DNS queries should be encrypted. Centralization-by-default is not the answer and people should look more closely at the incentives in play by those pushing the DoH standard. I appreciate the efforts of e.g. OpenBSD to prevent this side-channel leakage of user data to private corporations: https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20190911113856

Mozilla also send tons of users data to Google, and, probably, gets money/better contracts/other benefits.

Proof: https://twitter.com/jonathansampson/status/11658588961766604...

Ideally one could change to any range of DoH resolvers - right now there's 3 or so.

As far as I'm concerned, Google are only interested in DoH so far as prohibiting DNS level adblocking within their walled gardens.

cloudflare DOH fortunately uses it own domain for dns, so you can block it at firewall level.

Google could be evil and make resolver "google.com", so you would have to block whole google.

I was talking to a few people, of creating a list of all public doh servers, so we could all use it on our firewalls to block them.

Here's what I use. There's a free tool called Windows Ultimate Tweaker. It'll help with basic settings.

Next, Du Meter - shows network traffic right on taskbar. If I'm not actively using the internet and Du Meter shows 1MB/s, I get suspicious.

Finally BWMeter. I'll say it's little snitch for Windows. It'll alert you any time an application tries to access the internet. You can allow/forbid temporarily or permanently.

They are all light on resources. BWMeter's UI isn't great but it gets the job done.

https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html

And Activity Monitor in the Dock (Icon set to Network Access)

There's also Little Snitch for network monitoring.

For the rest, haven't researched much.

Tackling on edge firewall, looking what goes through, and blocking it there is second step (but since a lot of it is going to various cloud providers and cloud flare) this is often not an option

Tools are becoming available though. Projects like PiHole are making it easier to block many malicious trackers. There are even companies selling pre-built PiHole devices. Unless HP is hardcoding IP addresses, it's only a matter of adding the required domains to a tracker blocklist (if they're not already on there) and most of these problems go away nearly instantaneously.

I've noticed my PiHole helping a lot in regards to stuff like mobile apps (Google Analytics, Facebook Graph, etc.) and embedded devices like these are probably no exception.

I went through it with a magnifying glass to make sure it didn't select anything.

In addition, I set up the IP stuff manually on the printer to ensure there was no gateway... can't get out without a gateway.

At some point, though, I noticed that "something" [0] still managed to "get out".

After running some packet captures, it became clear what was going on. Although the device was using the network settings that I had manually configured, I had not specified a default gateway. The device decided it would use DHCP to discover the default gateway for the network and began automatically using it so it could get out to the Internet.

Since then, I've started specifying a default gateway for any devices that I don't want to get out. I give 'em an IP address that isn't in use on the network and, fortunately, I haven't ran into any other instances of crap like this happening.

[0]: I really wish I could remember what device this was but it's been a long time ago and I really have no idea, sorry.

http://corecom.com/external/livesecurity/vlans.htm

They're dirt cheap and have been for the better part of a decade. If you're looking to upgrade, cost isn't a reason not to.

• http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Linux_Router_with_VPN_on_a_...

• https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Linux_Router_with_VPN_on_a...

My printer is in a VLAN which has no route out over the Internet. (The second link there uses VLANs).

It does not protect you from compromised, malicous (IoT) devices. Think about a network printer doing ARP spoofing and MiTM-attacking your VoIP phone or IP cam. E.g. googeling immediately turns up vulnerabilities like this [1] one. A properly configured VLAN setup can help to prevent or limit this threat.

[1] https://www.scmagazine.com/home/network-security/hp-officeje...

Note how often people say "insert law here". Compare that with how many times they actually propose the text of a law. Our most effective laws are exceptionally simple and short. It's not accidental that "modern" laws are intractably complex.

How about try it? Propose the law.

Government regulation of the net (aka speech) is a non-starter, so the people who think "insert rule" fixes something are forced to rebrand it to "net betterness". More than half of the general public is wise to these techniques.

What "pragmatic" law do you have in mind?

All OS vendors benefit from this telemetry, so they all have it and support it. Microsoft collects lots of data, but don't be fooled, Apple also collects lots of telemetry.

I think what folks will start to realize is that RMS was right and only free software will be the only way to navigate this mess (since users are not denied access to the source code, which can be analyzed and the idiocy removed, like people do with ubuntu).

Fortunately for me I have the skills to do so. Unfortunately the majority of users have to suffer the bloatware and weep for the lost CPU and RAM that garbage wastes.

Check our Samsung or Brother for printers that don't involve bullshit. Any Asus beats any HP laptop and HP "server" gear, jajaja

The HP Spectre line runs Linux out of the box with full device support. Asus is hit or miss.

Otherwise, yes, you're absolutely correct.

And guess most of HP ProBook line. Asus sucks here, plus zero chances to get any support.

This was very a different experience from the monochrome DeskJet 500 that was such a workhorse. And the 7470A plotter that dad used for over a decade.

Beware, however, that if you live in a very humid climate, toner will clump easily. I suspect this is why inkjets are very common in Southeast Asia, whereas lasers are not as popular there.

Many printer manufacturers nowadays sell inkjet printers with laser-printer like operating costs, where ink is dirt-cheap, but the printer is correspondingly more expensive. Google for Epson EcoTank or Brother Inkvestment.

Color laser printers are slow, but not expensive.

After this I would only get a printer which has IPP Everywhere or at least is supported by foomatic-db. hplip can get lost.

I can also get non Brother branded cartridges as they don't make a habit out of selling the printer so cheap that they have to then rape you on the price of the cartridges when it's time to refill.

The non-Brother branded cartridges work just as well as the official ones and I can go into any major office chain and buy them off the shelf.

I can attest that in Windows 10 I always have to delete and re-add the network printer whenever I want to print something because apparently being offline even once is enough of an upset to send the Windows printing system into paroxysms of fear, where it will tremble mightily, unable to re-try in less than 20 minutes. Don't get me started on how it's impossible to share a cellular connection over Ethernet because plugging Ethernet in turns the cell connection off to "save power" either. That little turd of a feature cost me a couple hours last week.

I have actually physically assaulted several HP products since then. Literally nothing but aggro.

Enterprise. Not so good. Arguing with Broadcom NICs and blade chassis switch problems for a decade and a half makes me happy about AWS.

http://www.icanbarelydraw.com/comic/365

The customer needs to download and run an installer, accept a license agreement and configure a bunch of options that have nothing to do with the primary function of the hardware, then they can configure the actual hardware. In the end the user will usually end up interacting with vendor specific (or even model specific) software to manage the printer or configure print jobs.

None of that is truly necessary. Microsoft can detect hardware and provide plenty of drivers under their operating system. The typical desktop Linux distribution can do the same. In both cases, the key are licensing agreements that allow for it. Those licensing agreements are much more flexible if the software isn't collecting analytics (either for telemetry or marketing).