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Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by codingdave on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:28PM (#20559050)
> The marketing team had more than 1,200...

I fully admit that I'm not in marketing, so there are surely nuances I don't know. But that scale of marketing department is orders of magnitude above any other place I have worked, with the possible exception of IBM in the 90s. Just maybe... this was a reasonable move.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aresant on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:44PM (#20559226)
Uber's marketing / customer acquisition cost is their highest non-driver line item by a significant multiple.

They spent ~$3,200,000,000 ($3.2 billion) on sales & marketing in 2018 of which ~$1,800,000,000 is direct media / HR cost to drive customer acquisition.

In 2019 this number, as of the first quarter, has gone up substantially to a >$4b run rate.

With a burdened cost of $150k/yr for every single member of the 1,200 marketing team that makes up $180m of the total.

Uber operates in 600+ international major markets.

1200 employees (5% of organization total) covering and executing nuanced marketplace approaches for a budget of that scale is not out of range.

(1) https://qz.com/1592971/uber-ipo-filling-reveals-how-it-spend...

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by SilasX on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:00PM (#20559398)
Echoing twic's disbelief here. A quick googling turned up Coca-Cola's global advertising budget as being $4 billion/year [1].

>Coca-Cola has made a yearly commitment to large ad spends. In 2017, the beverage manufacturer spent $3.96 billion, in 2016, $4 billion, and in 2015 $3.96 billion on global advertising.

But I'm not sure if that's a comparable figure, as "advertising" is only a subset of "marketing". Still, if the latter is basically just the former plus salaries, it still suggests Uber is overpaying and/or has some inefficiencies in how they operate here.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/081315/look-co...

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by nemothekid on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:03PM (#20559429)
I think driver incentives falls under marketing spend at Uber. Driver Incentives are they will pay driver $X to make $Y trips. Essentially riders are paying $5 and drivers are making $6. I believe this is where most of the money is burned at Lyft as well.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aresant on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:09PM (#20559490)
UBER masks this real number across many of their general line items.

EG they put ~$300,000,000 of the "Driver Incentive" cost into "Cost of Revenue" line item that represents:

- "Any amount paid to a driver that exceeds the revenue earned by that driver (for instance, if a driver’s earnings from a trip exceed the fare for that trip). Excess driver incentives jumped by about $300 million in 2018 from the previous year, largely due to Uber Eats."

And then they stick $1,800,000,000 into "Sales & Marketing" representing:

- "Discounts, promotions, refunds, and credits for customers,"

- - - -

A popular criticism of UBER is that their unit economics are not sound - eg they can't make money at scale on a per ride basis.

So this giant $2.1b glut of Driver Incentives and Customer Incentives is one of the areas to deeply study and build a position around if you'd like to be an UBER stock holder :)

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by kiwidrew on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:54PM (#20561108)
In terms of unit economics, UberX is still (mostly) sound -- the rider is paying a fare based roughly on time/distance, and the driver is paid a fare that's also based roughly on time/distance; it's very rare to see a rider paying less than what a driver gets paid. (Even after taking into account the various driver incentives.)

Where the unit economics get completely messed up is Uber Eats. In my local market (Wellington NZ) the eaters are paying a flat delivery fee of $5.99 to $7.99, while the drivers are being paid $5 per pickup and $1.35 per km. This results in drivers earning anywhere from $5 to $20 for each delivery -- and that's without even taking into account any driver promotions. No wonder Uber had to come up with an "excess driver incentives" line item!

Sometimes Eats will have the driver pick up two orders at the same time. This lets Uber collect two delivery fees from the customers while only paying the driver a single pickup fee plus the kms from restaurant to customer A to customer B. In theory this should work in Uber's favour. But their system all-too-frequently will make insane assignments, such as batching together two orders for customers that live in completely opposite directions. There will be situations where the customers have each paid, say, $7.99 for delivery... and the driver ends up earning $30 from the trip!

So this is cutting very deeply into the 35% commission that Uber charges restaurants on the total order value. They're trying to hide the insane unit economics of Eats by spreading the various revenues and costs around different line items...

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by hef19898 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @03:44AM (#20562856)
Back the day I had a short stint at a bus charter business. There we also tried to reduce costs by bundling travel group's individual itenaries and match that against available busses to reduce empty rides. The result would have been that groups might have different busses on different days. Nice idea, in theory.

Turned out that avoiding empty trips in transportation is hugely dependant on volume by time and region. It is also a very hard problem to solve as you need to match availability data from busses (which needs to be collected in a scaleable way), trips (which need to be in the correct regions and times) and then simply come up with an optimization algorithm to sort it all out. Peace of cake... Not. Especially if you want to link that to your pricing already during customer booking instead of after-the-fact discounts.

One might suspect that the transportation industry which has the volumes and the cost pain of empty trips might already have solved it if it woupd have been that easy.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by dcposch on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:08PM (#20561168)
The elephant in the room for ride sharing is unit economics (and, closely related to unit economics, the race to self-driving).

Hiding $1800m of ride discounts under Sales and Marketing feels deceptive. If a store advertises "summer sale, 30% off!" for a month, you can reasonably call that marketing spend.

Uber is different. If my flight's leaving in 1h30m, I pull out my phone, open Uber, type in LAX, open Lyft, type in LAX.

Say Uber is $17. Lyft is $20. I pick Uber. If there's a "promotion" going on under the hood to produce that $17 number, is that marketing? It's really just price competition in a cutthroat, negative-unit-economic market.

Given that, Uber laying off 400 people has a dual effect. It's cutting sales spend. It's also creating news to distract from the fact that >50% of the sales spend is really per-ride losses.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by SilasX on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:29PM (#20561607)
Really good point there. If Uber can charge $1.01 for something it pays $0.99 for, then it might have a sound business model. But if it's in a perpetual state of offering discounts down to $0.98 to keep users buying rides, then it probably doesn't, and to relabel the underpricing as a marketing effort is just obscuring that.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by resters on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:49PM (#20560287)
I am not a shareholder, but I think market share is the short term goal. The incentives can be phased out as prices increase a bit after competition cools off.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by stevietopsiders on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:23AM (#20562314)
A criticism of this "model" is that building a ridesharing app and cloud backend is now not that hard.

So some developers with VC money can develop an app, launch in a city, and force Uber to cut prices, because people will be happy to install a FastRyde app and get rides for $3 less than Lyft/Uber.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by bloemy on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @04:48AM (#20563145)
And that is exactly what is happening in Paris, for instance. There are a ton of different apps there. Kapten is one of them. They simply cut their commission by 15% compared to Uber, pay the drivers 7.5% more and make the rides 7.5% cheaper, basically. Since they don't have as much legal costs and marketing costs as Uber, it seems to work out for now. I really don't see how Uber will be able to prevent this in other places too...
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by AJ007 on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:11PM (#20560458)
The big question is driver retention and how much Uber subsidizing drivers is required. Maybe Uber spends 0 extra, drivers drop out of the system, ride prices increase, and drivers return as riders stop using Uber, bringing it to some sort of equilibrium. Maybe not.

These retention numbers, for any business that needs returning customers or service providers pretty much make or break all the customer/provider acquisition economics.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by sprafa on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:19PM (#20560921)
In London Uber is unravelling already. Here Citymapper is the default transit app and Uber is just one of the options listed. The transfer cost for a customer changing app is 0. We keep saying we’re “not sure” whether Uber will have customer retention... no, of course it won’t! Unless they change their model, they’re the biggest VC folly in recent times. Just proves how overheated the market become when F/A/G acquired everything in the market that competes with them, leaving ridiculous Vc money to flow to dumb ideas like Uber.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by ddalex on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @02:32AM (#20562545)
no VC money anylonger, now it's stock market money, i.e. our pension funds
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by VRay on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @04:41AM (#20563117)
Wait, you guys get pension funds?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by flukus on Monday July 29, 2019 @11:13PM (#20561837)
> The big question is driver retention and how much Uber subsidizing drivers is required.

In Australia we've got drivers advertising other services directly to riders. Most of these are probably subsidizing rides to enter the market, but how long can uber continue losing money as competitors try and enter the market?

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by amiga_500 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:43PM (#20561046)
> market share is the short term goal.

Creating a monopoly then jacking up the price. Not doubt shafting drivers and their customers.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by amelius on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @03:24AM (#20562765)
But Uber's business model doesn't have lock-in potential. So if a price change happens, people (drivers and customers) will just switch to a different app.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by amiga_500 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @08:59AM (#20564365)
I have sympathy with your view. Do Uber even care about that? It's selling the prospect of a lock-in that got them the IPO.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by phatfish on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:48AM (#20564792)
To me this only works out if they are a monopoly bribing politicians to allow them to keep being the only smartphone-app-based taxi and food delivery service in town.

As others mentioned, its not hard to clone Uber. They don't even have the network effect of Facebook or Twitter. No one cares if their friend uses Lyft and they use Uber, they just care about the one time they make a journey, and how much it costs (along with safety I suppose, but that is an extra cost Uber try very hard to avoid).

The drivers are free to run whatever apps they want simultaneously, because Uber only works when exploiting them as "contractors" free to choose when and how they work.

I think Travis Kalanick was right, they need self driving cars, now...

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by CamelCaseName on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:06PM (#20559464)
From their S-1:

>Driver incentives. Driver incentives refer to payments that we make to Drivers, which are separate from and in addition to the Driver’s portion of the fare paid by the consumer. For example, Driver incentives could include payments we make to Drivers should they choose to take advantage of an incentive offer and complete a consecutive number of trips or a cumulative number of trips on the platform over a defined period of time. Driver incentives are recorded as a reduction of revenue to the extent they are not excess Driver incentives (as defined below).

>Driver referrals. Driver referrals refer to payments that we make to existing Drivers to refer new Drivers onto our platform. Driver referrals are recorded in sales and marketing expenses, as they represent the receipt of a distinct service of customer acquisition for which there is evidence of fair value.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1543151/000119312519... (pp. iii)

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by sct202 on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:40PM (#20559744)
Also in comparison with Coca-Cola, Uber is supposedly counting discounts and sales to riders in a way that inflates revenue, which does not sound to be the norm. https://www.lctmag.com/news/733960/uber-lyft-use-accounting-...
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by nabla9 on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:48PM (#20559820)
Uber blew as much as $3.2 billion on advertising alone in 2018 on its way to one of the biggest US IPOs on record https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-shelled-out-31-billion-...
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by SilasX on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:55PM (#20559874)
Yes, I joined the thread in response to a comment that cited the $3.2B/2018 figure.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by moksly on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:05PM (#20559958)
> Uber operates in 600+ international major markets.

Maybe it’s because I’m from a small country, but can a single country have more than one “major international market”?

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by martinald on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:08PM (#20559983)
It means cities/metro areas.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by walshemj on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:27PM (#20560964)
Does it really? I would not have said so. I work as a consultant for a major international (I wont say who ) company and they only quote 190 or so "international markets"
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by pandapower2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:08PM (#20561498)
They must be counting multiple markets per country. There aren't that many countries in the world and there are a significant number of countries where Uber doesn't operate all. As an example, afaik they no longer operate anywhere in south east Asia.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by RussianCow on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:38PM (#20561017)
I don't think it's necessarily standard to use it that way, but it makes sense for Uber because their areas of operation (markets) are defined by cities (i.e. you can't just call an Uber in the middle of the country; it has to be within one of their operating cities).
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by chrisbroadfoot on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:33PM (#20560614)
Read this sentence as "600+ major markets, internationally".

A "major market" is basically a city/metro.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by twic on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:49PM (#20559275)
Have you got the right number of zeroes there? Three billion per year?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aresant on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:56PM (#20559350)
Yep - $3.2b is the headline cost of sales and marketing in 2018.

In 2019 that number as of Q1 has shot up to a $4b+ run rate:

https://investor.uber.com/news-events/news/press-release-det...

- -

Even more interesting in that number.

The accounting department came up with a nice way to mask their "unprofitable rides" and call them "customer discounts".

This is the line item for costs where they pay a driver more than they collect from a customer.

So they put the "customer discounts" number, which represented $1,400,000,000 in total expense, into the marketing budget.

Leaving ~$1,800,000,000 spread for all other sales & marketing activities.

I am very in the weeds in the 2-sided logistics marketplace customer acquisition data if you have other questions :).

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by MetalGuru on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:12PM (#20559518)
What’s your take on the sustainability of these subsidized rides? Will drivers still drive if this incentive is taken away? What are some of your favorite interesting insights from that data?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aresant on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:24PM (#20559608)
(1) What’s your take on the sustainability of these subsidized rides? -=>

The gigantic and unsustainable CAC numbers experienced by Uber, Lyft, and others is due to the present level of competition for these drivers & customers. This demand has been inflated for years fueled by Vision Fund and other late stage VC money with their winner takes all approach.

This cost has now been handed off (in the USA anyways) to Lyft & Uber stock holders. Somebody is going to run out of capital or experience a precipitous drop in stock valuation that will force the market's hand here and reduce demand and re-normalize.

It is financially unsustainable for this # to keep climbing as a percentage of revenue barring a massive change to the cost structures.

The only massive change imaginable in the structure was when Travis got away for a few years claiming autonomous would cure all, this is obviously not going to happen in the timeline he was pitching.

I think that the CEO taking a hard position and firing 400 people in his marketing department is a good indicator that when they next report earnings CAC is going to be a huge mess and maybe shed some light on how UBER plans to navigate that downshift.

(2) Will drivers still drive if this incentive is taken away? -=> Yes, following my comment above I think that the current CAC and retention numbers will normalize (for one or other other of the major players) and that the delta savings will be pushed back into increased driver wages.

(3) What are some of your favorite interesting insights from that data? -=> Outta steam sorry :)

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by inflatableDodo on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:34PM (#20561285)
>This demand has been inflated for years fueled by Vision Fund and other late stage VC money with their winner takes all approach.

Do you think it is even possible to have a winner takes all in the global hire car market? The barrier to entry is exceedingly low.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by sundvor on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:19PM (#20560055)
It sounds like prices should be higher. They sure appear unsubsidized in Australia.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by knicholes on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:52PM (#20559310)
I don't see aresant saying "per year" but just in 2018.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by uponcoffee on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:58PM (#20559376)
They even cited a source
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by user5994461 on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:52PM (#20559846)
Just fire half of them to save half the money.

Marketing has large budgets to spend (multiple of their salaries) on marketing campaigns. They're usually incentivized to spend as much as possible on whichever marketing campaign they can come up with, with little accountability on whether it brings any ROI.

It's the equivalent of software engineers wanting to use the latest tools for resume building, no matter the situation. The difference is that marketing lives on spending money, hence cutting headcount there has a big multiplier on cost savings.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by lapnitnelav on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:36PM (#20560188)
I don't know when was the last time you got involved in anything marketing but if anything, marketing teams are fairly metrics driven nowadays.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by hef19898 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @04:52AM (#20563166)
Good ones are.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by user5994461 on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:10PM (#20560453)
I don't know when is the last time you got involved in marketing but if anything, the metrics driven culture is precisely a free pass allowing to justify any decision whatsoever, through a careful selection of data points and scale, whether intentional or accidental. God forbids having to point out to your manager that he mixed up the X/Y axis and sales have been decreasing month over month, not increasing.

By the way, a lot of marketing is still not quite metrics driven. Unlike the internet, when spending money on national TV, sports teams, tube station ads, there is little feedback that can be captured.

And even on the internet, how do the new junior marketer learns that google/facebook ads don't have a positive ROI for his use case, assuming he's measuring at all? That's by spending a few million dollars in vain.

Anyway, that is not to say that marketing is useless, it's an important aspect of some businesses. The capital costs involved are fairly high though and can quickly spiral out of control. A big part of the marketing/advertising industry is a scam operating at a loss, an elaborate conduit to transfer money from the client to the advertiser.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by dalbasal on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:01PM (#20559405)
Since we're talking about tech startup marketing budgets, it's a good time to reread http://www.paulgraham.com/yahoo.html

By 1998, Yahoo was the beneficiary of a de facto Ponzi scheme. Investors were excited about the Internet. One reason they were excited was Yahoo's revenue growth. So they invested in new Internet startups. The startups then used the money to buy ads on Yahoo to get traffic. Which caused yet more revenue growth for Yahoo, and further convinced investors the Internet was worth investing in. When I realized this one day, sitting in my cubicle, I jumped up like Archimedes in his bathtub, except instead of "Eureka!" I was shouting "Sell!"

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by cortesoft on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:56PM (#20559887)
Makes me think of my days working on a facebook app in 2007-8... every single app had the same revenue stream - selling installs to other apps. The price per install was crazy high, and this was before Facebook started enforcing rules about shady practices, so every app would do things like "Install this other app, and we give you these perks in our app"

It was ridiculous. There was no real money, just app developers paying each other for installs.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by duskwuff on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:37PM (#20560638)
The same thing has been true of mobile games for a while. A lot of the ad inventory displayed in free games is ads for more free games -- sure, there's some real revenue from in-app purchases, but there's also a lot of money getting passed from hand to hand for ads.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by BigJono on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @12:23AM (#20562124)
I think that 'some' real revenue probably dwarves most industries tenfold. Look at what something like Candy Crush makes in IAP, the top 5 players could probably support the entire ad industry themselves in perpetuity without breaking stride.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by mrnobody_67 on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:07PM (#20560426)
40% of all invested VC dollars go to Facebook and Google in the form of customer acquisition costs
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by cm2012 on Monday July 29, 2019 @11:20PM (#20561868)
90% of all new ad spend goes to either FB or Google because they actually work for acquiring customers at scale. Every other ad provider squeezes into the last 10%.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by dalbasal on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @06:17AM (#20563467)
Not sure this is true anymore. The market is so big, those two can't cover it all.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by pandapower2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:09PM (#20561505)
Curious what percentage goes to AWS...
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by bloemy on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @04:50AM (#20563158)
If you look at Uber/Lyft, quite a lot...
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by scarface74 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @12:05AM (#20562059)
This is no different than what happened with Yahoo and AOL before the dot com bust.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by cm2012 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @12:46AM (#20562193)
Most modern ad spend is tracked to ROI. Yahoo and AOL was not.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by dalbasal on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @06:18AM (#20563472)
tracked to does not necessarily imply "limited by."
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by bmiller2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:47PM (#20561068)
Source?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by vmurthy on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @02:24AM (#20562503)
Thank you for this. Lovely read! :-)
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by noego on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:04PM (#20559434)
Your comment reminds me of something Dan Luu had written about.

https://danluu.com/sounds-easy/

> I can't think of a single large software company that doesn't regularly draw internet comments of the form “What do all the employees do?"

Granted he's mostly talking about engineers, but I'm sure someone more knowledgable about marketing could write an almost identical essay.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aresant on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:49PM (#20559826)
A really simple way to think about this.

The promise of software at scale is that the marginal costs of selling one single additional unit are basically $0.00

As a result if your product sells for $500 you can spend $495 and still make money.

This leads to all sorts of adventures in driving that additional marginal unit sale such as:

- Localization - eg Microsoft Office is available in 102 languages! So now we need a local market product manager, sales team, distribution team, translator, QA, etc, etc.

- Enterprise - Huge swaths of money spent on conferences, thought leadership, any bullshit you can think of to potentially get a decision maker CTO to befriend somebody on your sales team.

- Government! - Selling to the gov't is extremely profitable but extremely long and complex sales cycle. Now we're hiring lobbyists, contract specialists, etc, etc.

- Support - Happy users are your mostly likely next buyers

etc etc

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by mr_crankypants on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:30PM (#20559651)
> I can't think of a single large software company that doesn't regularly draw internet comments of the form “What do all the employees do?"

I also can't think of a single large software company that doesn't, in the long run, survive by either endlessly buying and extracting all the value out of smaller software companies, or creating a moat that makes it almost impossible for new competitors to emerge.

Having worked for a small software company that got acquired by a large one that used the former survival strategy, and therefore witnessed firsthand the subsequent doubling of headcount and simultaneous halving of overall productivity, I can offer one of what I assume are several possible answers: Paperwork. And lots of it.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by muro on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:41PM (#20559756)
I don't think large companies just "extract value" from the small ones. They prove that the small company had a great idea and make the idea successful by providing sales, marketing and support that the small.company wouldn't be able to provide (if for no other reason than reduced risk and existing customer relations).
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by mr_crankypants on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:49PM (#20559835)
It might depend. In the case I experienced, sales, marketing and support were already in place and quite successful beforehand, and the acquiring company did an admirable job of teaching all three how to do less with more.

To take the example of support, pre-acquisition, the support team had a reputation for being one of the best and most knowledgeable in the industry. That reputation went up in smoke rather quickly when the acquiring company decided to merge support into their existing support vertical and adopt its existing policies, including things like requiring the support and the product development teams to communicate through JIRA instead of using informal channels like instant messages or (in exceptional cases) pulling a developer into the call.

The end result was that the mean time to find a resolution for the non-routine issues went from hours to days. Ironically, while management claimed this would reduce disruption for the development team, it actually increased the time that developers had to spend on supporting the support team, since it made communication so much more difficult. Which, in turn, means that it slowed down both customer support and product development by bogging them both down with paperwork.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by pessimizer on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:57PM (#20560794)
Or killing that small company to protect one of their own products.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by gridlockd on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:57PM (#20559894)
Up to a point these arguments make sense, after that the much better explanation is Parkinson's Law.

Of course all these employees are doing something. People will always invent more unnecessary work if the budget is there.

If the budget isn't there, the unnecessary work just isn't done and nobody notices.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by dawhizkid on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:32PM (#20559107)
The "marketing manager" role at Uber is an operations role and part of a local operations teams. Your main job is not "brand marketing" but attracting new drivers and managing local incentive spend.

They've most likely (wisely) decided to centralize those decisions, so not a huge surprise.

FWIW, the operations teams (small, local, non-technical teams stationed random cities around the world) built Uber into what it is today. Scaling/automating those jobs was always an inevitable.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by freewilly1040 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:39PM (#20561020)
Why is it wise? It wouldn't surprise me if some of the best strategies for this kind of ops is location specific.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by rrix2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:14PM (#20561195)
Most of Uber's early virality came from local teams being forced to innovate to survive. Ice Cream, Eats, Pool, Puppies, rentals all came from those folks who're now being laid off
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by rlanday on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:30PM (#20559078)
Uber's business model has the same problem as Groupon's, which is that they don't really have economies of scale. Every market requires a new team of people to run promotions to attract drivers and customers and match supply with demand.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by ethbro on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:59PM (#20559384)
"Do things that don't scale" ... and then cash out before the market notices.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by larrydag on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:43PM (#20559771)
Yes. Seems to be a mostly variable cost business. That means you need to lower your per unit cost. This might be their plan.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by exadeci on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @02:19AM (#20562486)
Yeah, Groupon did something similar in France, hired hundreds of sales guys to go to every possible shop in every city then fired them all and kept just a handful in each city and a team of permanent ones only contacting by phone in the main office.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by smallgovt on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:40PM (#20559185)
I can understand why every new market requires an operations team on the ground, but marketing ought to be centralized.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by _bxg1 on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:48PM (#20559272)
I could see there being localization challenges, especially when you start talking about multiple countries. Not just languages; cultural nuance, idioms, and political awareness all matter.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by bduerst on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:40PM (#20559748)
This is precisely why you have regional marketing teams. It's all situational, but IME a dedicated team for a region (APAC, EMEA, etc.) is better at executing than a single centralized global team. Typically the operational aspects can be delegated to the regions who know the individual markets best, while things like branding stay central.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by Twirrim on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:26PM (#20559623)
Does that particular aspect require full time staff in-situ, though?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by Angostura on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:51PM (#20560302)
Just the legal aspects of regulation would. See Uber's struggles in London.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by freewilly1040 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:40PM (#20561025)
Where better to get expertise in a region's culture than the region?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by Twirrim on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @12:49AM (#20562202)
By hiring a local business to do it, rather than hiring a set of full-time staff yourself?

For a company that's about the gig economy, they make some strange staffing choices.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by quickthrower2 on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:37PM (#20559707)
I'm not sure. There is a big billboard ad here in Sydney, which seems to be coordinated with a radio and online marketing campaign, around saying how 'safe' Uber is. Could campaigns like this all around the world be centralized into a smaller team?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by zemotion on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:39PM (#20560215)
It's not quite that simple. The needs and responses of a local market can be completely different from one to the next.

Because of differing cultures, we respond very differently to color palettes, design aesthetics, safety concerns, cool factors, etc. And since the entire point of marketing is to sell, then the the brand's visuals, branding strategy, responses to concerns, etc, all have to be completely customized for the local market in order to engage customers.

For example one common difficulty tech companies often encounter while trying to enter Japan was how difficult it was to acquire and retain users compared to anywhere else. Some gave up, some would keep trying, and surprise—it would magically work out when you hire a local ad team, local designers, art directors, etc. Western companies' sleek, advanced designs are easy to use and navigate, but the locals understand that culturally, the Japanese society resists change. They are used to early day yahoo/geocities level of banner ads and flashing gifs on a page so that they can feel certain that what they are using can be authentically catered to the Japanese people and supported. Overly simple designs like a Bootstrap framework was simply too frightening, new and confusing.

Same can be applied to pretty much anything from fashion, beauty, food, retail of any kind, to things like Uber, which specifically has its own complexities to solve while trying to enter a taxi-efficient market like that; a completely different marketing problem to solve than say Australia's safety concern as you mentioned.

TL;DR: Can't easily centralize marketing because local cultures and needs are always different; and you need locals to know what locals will want/engage with.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by ghaff on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:47PM (#20560276)
I'm in Japan at the moment and I was talking to someone the other day about design. There's a contrast that always strikes me. On the one hand there's this very restrained aesthetic in so much of traditional Japanese art and culture. On the other hand, most display advertising and a lot of signage in general looks like something knocked out by a random intern with no design experience at all turned loose on a desktop publishing program and told to go wild.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by cpeterso on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:17PM (#20560036)
A small centralized team will have a challenge trying to coordinate billboard, radio, and online ad campaigns in dozens of cities in dozens of countries. There will be different language, culture, legal, and logistical issues in every market.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by aserafini on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:12AM (#20562285)
I think it could be yes. We have the exact same campaign for Uber in Berlin right now (in German language of course). But the essence of the campaign is identical.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by lonelappde on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:26PM (#20559630)
That roaring sound you hear is the majority of the world's population wailing about how Silicon Valley companies don't understand that San Francisco is a tiny portion of the wide world.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by astrodust on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:48PM (#20560731)
Localization is a big deal, or you're going to make an epic cultural faux-pas. What if "Uber" means something lewd or offensive in the local language? What if your marketing team cranks out English copy that doesn't translate well, or at all?
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by choppaface on Monday July 29, 2019 @04:46PM (#20559253)
It might be centralized, but not entirely automated, at least not yet. Thus each city requires headcount.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by grecy on Monday July 29, 2019 @06:20PM (#20560063)
Marketing runs the world now, because we've reached a point where companies really, really have to convince people to spend their money on whatever useless product is being pushed.

Ever notice there isn't marketing for potatoes, bread, rice, etc. ? People buy those things anyway. The latest smartphone? gotta convince everyone to buy it.

At my last company engineering spent $10m installing fiber into some remote community. The marketing for that project was $15m.

So the marketing around "doing something" costs more than actually doing it.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by pessimizer on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:59PM (#20560804)
Quoted film budgets are usually about half the actual budget as a rule of thumb, because they don't mention the half spent on marketing.

That's why films are often known as flops even when they make their "budgets" back. You're not in the money until you double the budget.

edit: Also, considering the vast majority of that marketing money is spent before the film comes out these days, and all the sales are made within a month - as much is spent on convincing people that a film that nobody has seen is going to be good as is spent on the film.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by rightbyte on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:51PM (#20560752)
15 million? How can local ads for a fiber network be so expensive? Just pay a bunch of kids to hand out flyers. Fiber is usually something people want.

If your numbers are correct it sounds like some kickback scam.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by toast0 on Monday July 29, 2019 @11:46PM (#20561990)
Fiber might be something people want, but it's also something people have been falsely sold so many times. In the late 2000s, my cable company said they were putting in fiber, and i got a cable modem. AT&T called adsl2 (and sometimes simply rebranded adsl1) U-verse and sent people around neighborhoods saying it was fiber.

How are normal people supposed to know fiber to the home is actually fiber?

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by kyshoc on Monday July 29, 2019 @10:57PM (#20561753)
> Fiber is usually something people want

According to this survey[0], only 25% of people even know what "fiber-to-the-home" means. Not a perfect proxy for "fiber" itself, but I imagine most non-technical people are not aware of it.

[0]: http://www.bbpmag.com/Features/0714feature-ConsumerSurvey.ph...

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by grecy on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @03:16PM (#20577279)
The marketing department is twice the size of engineering, and they just contract out all the work to external agencies anyway. So they are just a team of middle-men to agencies who charge WAY more per hour than the most experienced Engineer on the team of people who actually built and designed the thing.

Gotta pay all those salaries somehow.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by sjg007 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @10:22AM (#20565050)
There's plenty of marketing for potatoes (Idaho), pork, milk, pistachios, avocados, beef, chicken etc... Usually trade groups but still.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by ryguytilidie on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:58PM (#20559900)
I do recruiting and I had a client tell me they wanted a Design Manager from a specific set of companies. This included Uber. When I looked at how many Design Managers Uber had, I was blown away. I remember them having 50+. Seemed crazy.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by raverbashing on Monday July 29, 2019 @05:12PM (#20559519)
My guess is: a specialized marketing team per country. Also remember they have to market to both sides: rider acquisition and driver acquisition
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by owaislone on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:46PM (#20560721)
Uber has stalls in popular areas like shopping malls in all major cities. I see at least half a dozen Uber employees trying to sign people up to be drivers all the time. Considering the number of international markets they operate in and the nuances of each market, I don't think it's as that surprising.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by yashap on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @02:26AM (#20562517)
When you grow as fast as Uber has been, you accumulate a TONNE of fat. Multiple teams hiring people for the same role, creation of roles that have no real value, too many middle managers, etc.

It’s so hard to not get into this state during rapid growth, and to get out of it, and return to being a focused, lean, efficient (and eventually profitable) company, layoffs are basically the only answer. Often LOTS of layoffs. In a few years, I’ll bet many other departments at Uber are hit the way marketing just was.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by themagician on Monday July 29, 2019 @07:25PM (#20560548)
Marketing is all they are.

The driver aren't employees. The cars in the fleet aren't their assets. The insurance is handled by someone else and there is no licensing.

Uber, itself, is just an app with a giant marketing department. The app itself isn't even that different than it was in 2011. 99% of the functionality that people actually use is exactly the same as it was when they started.

Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by freewilly1040 on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:46PM (#20561065)
The "just an app" critique is often repeated and makes no sense. The app is just the interface.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by themagician on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:06AM (#20611429)
The interface is all their is. The drivers aren’t employees, and the cars aren’t theirs.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by QuixoticQuibit on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:15PM (#20560899)
Doesn’t Uber also lease cars to drivers? I was surprised to see in the Bay Area that so many drivers had fairly new cars. I asked one about it and he said that Uber leased it out. Presumably a portion of the driver’s income goes directly towards the car.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by selectodude on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:37PM (#20561008)
100 percent of their income goes to the car until its paid off for that month, and the interest rate they charge to lease the car is downright usury. $200/wk to rent a Hyundai Elantra that Hyundai leases out at under $200/mo.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by williamDafoe on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:59PM (#20561440)
Not exactly true. If you drive full-time for Lyft or Uber you MUST change the oil of your car EVERY MONTH. Leased Hyundai's don't see that kind of stress until a year goes by so the Lyft/Uber car is getting destroyed at least 4x more quickly.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by selectodude on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @01:02PM (#20566795)
Depreciation curves aren’t linear. At $20,000 which is the list price of the car (which is almost certainly overstating it) you’re depreciating the car to zero after two years. Even a beat to shit two year old car isn’t worth zero.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by UncleEntity on Monday July 29, 2019 @09:35PM (#20561289)
The difference being that $200/wk covers everything but gas, lease a car direct from Hyundai and you have a lot more overhead to deal with -- maintenance, insurance, going over the "average miles" in a few months, &etc.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by sjg007 on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @10:26AM (#20565090)
Most lease agreements now include maintenance. Why? Because they don't want you to run the car into the ground since then you'll just return it. Modern cars need oil changes at 10k miles. With a 30k lease you are talking 3 oil changes which is like $50 in wholesale cost. Brakes and tires should last the whole 30k.
Re:Uber Lays Off 400 by themagician on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:05AM (#20611424)
Uber doesn’t directly. They just find partners who do.