Exactly! I've done intermittent fasting for many many years, it works for me. I've told people, "You know how a workout 'hurts so good'? Learn to think that way about hunger/cravings. Consider it the same way you would consider a workout pain, as progress not punishment".
Another way to look at it that I've found effective: think of food cravings as an adversarial agent. Your body is blackmailing you: if you give me food, I'll make this craving go away. Trick is, the food you're probably craving -- chips, soda -- don't make the craving go away. They make it worse. Once you notice that you're body doesn't actually make good on its promises to make the cravings stop it's easier to not give in to its demands. And that actually makes the cravings stop. It's no different than dealing with any other bully.
You need a laundry list of nutrients, and if your body is short of any one of them, it'll crave something that might have it. If it has it in insufficient density, it won't care that it needs to also get an extra 500 Kcal along for the ride - it needs to satisfy each item on the list.
I've seen this behavior in both cats and people -- feed them better quality food, and their cravings & weight go down as the full set of nutrients is found in fewer calories.
(Different topic, also very big on intermittent fasting, ensuring that there are frequent periods where the body recovers energy from fat stores)
I noticed one study a long time ago just about flavor. Basically, rats, being fed standard rat chow, with nutrients and calories kept constant, both groups had full access to the food. Group A had one flavor, Group B had six flavors. Group B gained a lot more weight. So, merely restricting flavor choice will reduce your inclination to eat, and conversely, food engineers creating foods with lots of flavors will increase food and eating...
A few weeks ago I decided to try 8/16 IF, which basically means I don't eat past 10 pm (mornings are not a problem, I wake up late and never need breakfast). I'll usually wake up around noon, have my first meal at around 3 or 4, then have a small meal at 9 or just before 10 and that's it for the day.
This has made a very big difference. I have already lost 2 kg without even thinking about it. It helps a lot that I will eat a small meal before I'm hungry (at 9), wheras before I'd wait until 1 am when I was starving and then would eat a large meal.
It has also made compliance a breeze by just not giving me a choice. I'm unable to say "I've eaten a lot today so I shouldn't have this snack too", I would just think "eh I'll have this snack and eat less tomorrow", only for the cycle to repeat the next day. Now, if it's past 10 I don't eat anything, simple.
I definitely recommend this to anyone with compliance problems. I can also 100% relate to your hunger statement, which I learnt the last time I dieted, years ago. Being hungry just means that my body is burning fat, and I can go 30+ hours between meals without really any ill effects.
I'm a bit of a fat bastard myself and I think what I've come to realise is that for a huge segment of the population eating just works fine and they can adjust diet to tweak this or that relatively easily. For the rest (like me), my relationship with food is broken and stuff like IF or keto or whatever are patches to deal with that underlying brokenness. It always works for a while, but it always go to shit eventually.
> Certain foods, particularly those rich in sugars and fat, are potent rewards [23] that promote eating (even in the absence of an energetic requirement)
If the subjects are used to carb- and sugar-heavy diet, the hormonal spikes will be very stressful on the body.
They also mention fat-heavy foods, but I suspect they are referring to foods high on both fat+sugars, not a green salad with copious amounts of olive oil.
It's so strange. My whole life I hadn't given sodas a second thought, but that reward signal is strong. I don't think I ever want to go back.
This is what I exactly tell people. It's the only way to sustain it.
However, I'm quite lucky in that I don't really get hungry very soon, if I don't eat. It's quite a weird effect; if I eat in the morning, I'll be hungry throughout the day, but if I skip breakfast (or even lunch), I'll only get hungry towards the evening.
So I just skip breakfast (almost always) and lunch (when I want to lose weight). Greatest diet hack I've ever discovered (actually, psychological hack).
I've actually had fights with my dietician who insisted I eat breakfast as soon as I wake up, and wouldn't hear any of my links to published research, or even arguments of "if I'm not hungry, why eat extra calories that will just make me even hungrier?!"
Just skip breakfast and eat the first meal when you're hungry (don't wait until you're starving, or you might overeat). You're literally not missing anything.
I only eat lunch (at noon) and dinner (at 8pm), pretty much like clockwork. It's very rare that I eat outside of these times during the work week. I don't snack through the work day, and I very seldom snack at home on work evenings. But I still end up eating too much; lunch + dinner is more than I need. I'm thinking about paring it back to just dinner (perhaps 2 days a week starting out), since that's the most important, socially.
I didn't have any problem sticking with my normal 60kg weight until I got over 35 or so, now I'm up to 70kg or so and I can feel my body fat jiggle as I run up or down stairs - an alien feeling to me.
Yeah, I put on 10 kg as well once I hit 33. I don't know what happened, everything I've read said your metabolism doesn't slow down until much later, but I exercise more and eat less than I used to, yet I put on a bunch of weight that I can't easily lose.
I'd love to figure out why that is, but I can't find anything.
I remained trim eating 4000ish calories a day of junk food from about age 15 to age 22 or so. Attempted to crash diet to a strict 1400 calories a day to make my comes-and-goes six-pack a bit more permanent. Kept it up for about two months. Nothing (more or less) happened. Stopped since it wasn't working. Promptly put on ten pounds. Have struggled to keep my weight under control ever since.
Metabolisms are weird.
We have a tendency to finish all the food that's put in front of us. So many times we continue to eat even if we are not hungry. So by reducing the plate size we end up eating less.
I think that's actually a pretty normal effect, though perhaps not usually as pronounced as "only get hungry towards the evening". You don't normally get hungry while asleep, so I think one of breakfast's purposes is to kick-start the metabolism, with the side-effect of getting hungry afterwards. Especially if you're on a diet and are sticking to small breakfasts, making that meal counterproductive.
(I replace my fancy beer cravings with fancy water)
Personally, one of the first things I had to learn when starting IF is to be okay with hunger.
Then, I had to learn what was real hunger. Because of IF I don’t get hungry when I wake up in the morning anymore. But after a week on a holiday with breakfast as a norm, it’s as if my body expects food in the morning and gets hungry just because.
Took some time to reconcile what I experienced with what I was taught growing up, that hunger was bad.
Your body isn’t stupid. You won’t turn into a ball of fat if you fast regularly. Cavemen and even animals have long feast/famine cycles. Our bodies are designed to store fat and burn it when food is scarce.
Now if folks are already in a healthy weight, then yea, extended fasting isn’t necessarily something you want to do a lot of, but for obese people, we have plenty of fat to keep things rolling as long as other essential nutrients are supplemented via multivitamins.
Warning: Don't take too much salt all at once, because that can trigger a regurgitation..
If that were true (it's not), there are all sorts of important "electrolytes" that are not in table salt (Calcium, Potassium, Magnesium, etc).
The reason your technique resolves your dizziness is likely a combination of placebo and hydration.
The biggest benefit to me from IF isn't the weight loss, it's the increased energy level. I don't know how it works, but I have way more energy, consistently, after routinely fasting.
Wait, what ? Could you expand on that ?
Well, she knew that she wasn’t supposed to sleep without her machine, so every time she got in bed, she’d put it on. This meant she was maybe spending 16 hours a day with this thing pumping air into her lungs. Now compound that with a sedentary lifestyle and a poor diet over a couple of years and it makes sense.
Her last days were spent in a hospital on a ventilator and every time the doctors tried to remove it for her to breathe on her own, her lungs just could not keep up.
Obviously this is a special case. Many people use these machines with no ill side effects, but for me, since it’s so personal, I have an admittedly irrational fear of them. For me though, I’d rather not need it in the first place if I can avoid it.
This also only happened a few years ago so it’s still fresh for me.
Thanks for sharing that. I have a CPAP and your account is one more point to something I have been suspecting for a while now, especially in the last few days.
Things that help: - Drinking water - Drinking Coffee - Gentle exercise (something like a walk)
After 3 weeks of IF and healthier eating, that number had already dropped below the threshold to just pre-diabetes. Within 3 months I had reversed that as well. This was all verified by bloodwork.
Now it is true, when you eat, even when not doing IF, insulin spikes. That’s how our bodies process food. During extended fasting, your body will become more sensitive to insulin so it is important that when you eat again, not to stuff yourself with high carb foods that will only exacerbate that.
Now how much you’d have to eat to do hurt yourself, I don’t know, but I guarantee the first time you break a fast with just a bit too many carbs you will feel it. The first time was enough for me!
I didn't start it for the mental side effects, but I haven't noticed any strong negatives during my day job. I get 4-6 hours of meaningful work done and then my brain is about finished like most days.
Many people who do IF actually suggest working/playing to keep your mind off the hunger as it's easier to ignore when you're busy.
I would like to hear more details on this. Being a CPAP machine user I have never heard of this (lungs failing) before.
Well, she knew that she wasn’t supposed to sleep without her machine, so every time she got in bed, she’d put it on. This meant she was maybe spending 16 hours a day with this thing pumping air into her lungs. Now compound that with a sedentary lifestyle and a poor diet over a couple of years and it makes sense.
Her last days were spent in a hospital on a ventilator and every time the doctors tried to remove it for her to breathe on her own, her lungs just could not keep up.
Obviously this is a special case. Many people use these machines with no ill side effects, but for me, since it’s so personal, I have an admittedly irrational fear of them. For me though, I’d rather not need it in the first place if I can avoid it.
This also only happened a few years ago so it’s still fresh for me.
Well, she knew that she wasn’t supposed to sleep without her machine, so every time she got in bed, she’d put it on. This meant she was maybe spending 16 hours a day with this thing pumping air into her lungs. Now compound that with a sedentary lifestyle and a poor diet over a couple of years and it makes sense.
Her last days were spent in a hospital on a ventilator and every time the doctors tried to remove it for her to breathe on her own, her lungs just could not keep up.
Obviously this is a special case. Many people use these machines with no ill side effects, but for me, since it’s so personal, I have an admitently irrational fear of them.
Well, she knew that she wasn’t supposed to sleep without her machine, so every time she got in bed, she’d put it on. This meant she was maybe spending 16 hours a day with this thing pumping air into her lungs. Now compound that with a sedentary lifestyle and a poor diet over a couple of years and it makes sense.
Her last days were spent in a hospital on a ventilator and every time the doctors tried to remove it for her to breathe on her own, her lungs just could not keep up.
Obviously this is a special case. Many people use these machines with no ill side effects, but for me, since it’s so personal, I have an admittedly irrational fear of them. For me though, I’d rather not need it in the first place if I can avoid it.
This also only happened a few years ago so it’s still fresh for me.
I’ve noticed it’s much harder to do in the summer as that cold beer at the end of a hot day is ever so enjoyable.
If you really do want to drink that much milk, and are worried about blood sugar, you should try lactose-free milk - it's just milk that has the enzyme lactase added to it, which breaks down the lactose to galactose, and also results in a bit less sugar overall (to something like 3.5%). I can't tell the difference, taste wise.
Everyone should try lactose-free milk just once just to see how very sweet it is. It has the same sugar content as regular milk, but regular milk’s lactose is a form of sugar that we don’t taste as strongly.
I don't personally notice lactose-free milk as being any sweeter than regular, and it doesn't look like galactose is any sweeter than lactose?
Feel free ask any more questions if you want. If this is too open of a forum for you, my DMs are open @DaronSpence on twitter.
After that, I’m not sure what I’ll do. The “healthy” range for my height is a bit lower than 200 but I imagine I’ll cut back on the intensity and focus on reinforcing new habits that I’m starting to form.
Already I’m making better food choices which is a huge first step but my portion control is not great. My drastically cut eating schedule let’s my eat a ton in a short period but I want to stop doing that eventually.
It’s a daily grind though; hard to deal with as a software developer that is used to brute forcing any problem I have.
Overall though, I’m excited for the future and happy I’ve learned this lesson while I’m still young and before I have kids.
I used to snore like crazy, probably had sleep apnea but was too afraid to go get tested since my grandmother died from becoming dependent on the machine and her lungs failed. Now I don’t snore at all. My wife sleeps better, I sleep better; win win!
I haven’t exercised at all and I don’t count calories. My biggest diet changes have been cutting out soda entirely and I try to keep my carbs under 100g a day. Many days I’m under 50.
It’s honestly been amazing and I’m glad that I did it now while I’m still young and will be able to physically play with my kids in the future.
One of the other big wins has been physiological and my relationship with food and the feeling of hunger. Living in America, and especially here in the south, food is a religion. Stopping whatever is going on to eat is never looked down on. Snacks all the time, large comfort food meals, etc. While the community aspects around food are a good thing, our dependence on it as a society has crossed over into causing more harm than help.
After starting to fast, I’ve learned that hunger is just another feeling, like being too hot or too cold. Sure, it can be uncomfortable, but it won’t kill you and we can tolerate it a lot longer than we think.
Right now, I’m in the middle of a 7 day fast where I’m only drinking water. Every week I normally fast 48 hours twice a week and then one meal a day for the other 5 days in the week. My relationship with food has morphed and now I’m totally in control of my body. Skipping a meal is no problem and I have no ill side effects.
I’ll wrap this up by saying that I still enjoy food, a lot! When I do eat for my one meal a day, I can easily eat a large salad and a burger and a side. My favorite pastime is going to the movies and eating a meal and a large bucket of popcorn with my wife. Some days though, I eat a “normal” portion and call it good. Sometimes I have dessert. The difference is now that I can manage my love of food in a sustainable way for my body.
Happy to answer any questions. AMA.