Chuang Tzu held his bamboo pole still.Watching the Pu river, he said:“I am told there is a sacred tortoise offered and canonized three thousand years ago,venerated by the prince, wrapped in silk,in a precious shrine on an altar in the temple.

What do you think? Is it better to give up one’s life and leave a sacred shell as an object of cult in a cloud of incense for three thousand years,or to live as a plain turtle dragging its tail in the mud?”

“For the turtle”, said the vice-chancellor,“better to live and drag its tail in the mud!”

“Go home!”, said Chuang Tzu.“Leave me here to drag my tail in the mud.”

Unless inherited guilt is your thing.

I would also prefer it if you would write down a bit more on why you are disagreeing with the first point and not just that you disagree, it doesn't seem very productive to me.

Ultimately, Carney made this call. Thanks!

I will say Stephen Hawking absolutely deserves it, one day, but I feel like the notable person should be dead for a certain period before we throw them on currency (certainly longer than a year). Conceptually I like the "50 year rule." Helps mitigate populism or overly politicizing it.

That results in the Queen (or King) being a remark on today, and the Scientist or other note-worthy contributor being a remark on our history (and values?).

There are some down sides though in that now banks know exactly what you are spending your money on and stores are now facing increasing terminal fees from these transactions ( in Australia anyway).

Just to be clear - we talk about 2nd biggest city in Switzerland and life in and around it.

Tax evasion, avoiding deal with chargebacks, and not having to pay merchant account fees. However, those fees are nearly zero for debit card accounts, and chargebacks are pretty much non existent with Chip + Pin (or Apple Pay or EMV), so I would most likely guess tax evasion. I've been to many restaurants that offer 10% discounts for cash payments, versus card, which works perfectly as they get a portion of the sale on the record for plausible deniability, and a portion off the record.

Granted: germany and france are a bit behind in this.

https://alehm.org.uk/services/healthier-catering-commitment/

This country isn't what it used to be.

I mean, it's understandable that you don't want to be mailing banknotes to Google Play to get your copy of Despacito, but you can definitely buy credit with Google Play in cash (at least in Canada and the U.S.).

Amazon, Apple, and a handful of others are much the same.

This is often found in countries that don't have proper online payment infrastructures.

Edit: typo Fixed

But for a common person, there are definitely uses:

* Tipping, when you don't want your server to have to report the tip as taxable income

* Buying/selling in places without reliable internet service

* Buying/selling illegal items

* Certain types of bars, etc. where it's logistically easier to use cash than handle a card + tipping on a receipt

* Training yourself to be more frugal by restricting yourself to cash for shopping / eating, where the shock factor of "look how much I'm spending!" is more visceral

* Giving to the visibly homeless

* Buying lemonade from kids

Also, I just like paying in cash sometimes. I'm hoping that the practical uses of it would create enough public outcry if banks/governments ever tried to phase it out.

>Tipping, when you don't want your server to have to report the tip as taxable income; Certain types of bars, etc. where it's logistically easier to use cash than handle a card + tipping on a receipt

The 1st option is clear tax evasion. Tipping is quite unpopular in Europe. When I tip I just leave a note after paying by card and that's that. Cards are immensely better when it comes to bars, restaurants, etc. (Actually they are better in almost any regard as losing them is rather fine, just get a new one from the bank)

>Buying/selling in places without reliable internet service

I can't think of a place w/o mobile internet, even mountain treks have decent internet.

I'm not sure where you are located, but in the US there are still quite many rural areas without cell service, even in the areas fairly close to major metropolitan areas. I can drive two hours from NYC and find entire towns that have no service.

I also just got back from a two week trip around the UK, where I expected better coverage but actually found I regularly had no cell service (on the biggest mobile carrier) in the countryside, including in the center of some villages.

Payment terminals have a tip $ or % option, which is more convenient than pen and paper which we often still see in the US.

Unless it's a low-end restaurant, most restaurants in Canadian big cities pay well. There are huge staff shortages and lots of turnover because it's an exhausting and difficult job.

re:Europe and Internet: Bavaria has pretty terrible service outside of towns.

True that. Last year I went on a trip through and there were times the internet was proper bad GPRS (edge), still enough for map navigation. However, I cant recall areas w/o any service at all. GPRS is enough for bank card services.

As someone mentioned - if you use a NA based phone, you might lack a full support in Europe for LTE

I went to a wedding in Ireland two years ago, and we didn't have a data connection for most of the weekend. We didn't even have a reliable _phone_ connection most of the time (Best Man forgot his cuff links, and it took three phones before we found someone with a signal, and even then that was patchy).

Yes, and?

>I can't think of a place w/o mobile internet

There are dead zones all over the rural east coast. I can imagine other parts of the country are even worse.

So the argument is the cash existence is providing support for tax evasion?

Edit: To be clear, I am not against taxation as a concept. However I do have issue with the American tax code and the atrocities committed with its revenue, so I am not morally opposed to helping other members of the middle-class avoid paying taxes on all of their income.

That was rather funny, had a good laugh at that...

Willing to bet not all of that money is declared to Mr Tax Man.

There are already homeless people carrying QR codes to accept digital donations, I assume a lemonade stand could do something similar...

Any idea what service that is through? Do people that are donating need to download an app, or just go to website or...?

I've never come across this

If tax evasion were not incredibly common among the wealthy, and if fewer of our tax dollars were used to create war, subsidize big business, etc., I'd be less inclined to feel this way.

My personal opinion is that there will always be a need for physical analog money. The power goes out in Puerto Rico (hurricanes) and Manhattan (ConEdison) sometimes (just recapping the stories covered on NPR during my drive to work this morning).

That's very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if the volume of physical cash is growing with a growing economy, but the fact that it's accelerating is unexpected. Do you have any links to learn more about this?

Is inflation speeding up, or are notes just retired more often?

Whether or not people's virtual cash valuation is going to continue to be represented by numbers on bits of paper and metal as opposed to numbers on computer databases seems like a yet more subtle idea to fail to fully grasp at the moment.

And in any case a map is a piece of safety equipment - you spec if for the worst case scenario.

But nowdays you get them coated in a plastic layer ... very nice, water proof and durable.

edit: or like the othe commenter mentioned, it is not a plastic layer and rather plastic itself called Tyvek or similar

NB When in Scottish mountains I take:

- An iPhone with offline OS maps

- An external battery for my iPhone and cable

- A paper OS map in a waterproof map case

- A printed A4 backup of an OS map in a plastic bag that I can give to others or to use if other maps become unusable (e.g. blown away - which has happened)

80% of the time I just use the iPhone - still have to use OS map and compass occasionally when things are particularly exciting.

And with each series of UK banknote in circulation for ~14 years, planning to put someone on a note in 4 series time is pretty forward-looking :)

Plus its only convenient because you had the payment method they accepted.

According to additional anecdotal evidence, no cash what so ever is their way of reducing the odds of a burglary. Within myriads of shops, one shop that doesn't offer cash payments is way less likely to be broken into.

One way to get around this would be to eat your candy bar or whatever in the store. Now they must take your cash, or accept not getting paid I guess.

That would be theft or criminal damage.

As an aside, I eat things at stores all the time. Grocery stores, convenience store, whatever. No one has ever said anything to me and no one cares.

Also I drink all the time at bars and pay at the end. The idea of “tab” is very very old, and it seems to work pretty well.

When I was a kid and my mom took me shoe shopping, I would always wear my shoes out of the store. Most other kids do the same things. And you pay at the end, not before!

Have you considered this is just some personal hang up you have and not representative of other people?

And you’re talking about common sense, but I don’t know where you live, but in America it’s very very common to eat in stores. Parents give their kid a candy bar and eat it. This happens all the time.

Honestly, what you’re saying sounds a little crazy.

And the idea of tabs doesn't apply to my comment since I excluded out situations where the customer's credibility is known by the store employees. I live in America, and while I haven't paid attention, I don't notice people using what they're buying before they have bought it.

The common sense is that what if someone comes into your store who can't afford to pay for what they have consumed? Do you think Walmart and Target and grocery stores can afford to make it official policy to let people consume before they buy and not suffer losses from people who toss the wrapper or empty bottle in an aisle somewhere? Or can't afford to pay?

It works if it's a small place and you trust everyone, but once you scale up, I don't see how it works.

Every person has many opportunities to steal pretty much all the time without consequence, and yet, they don't.

As far as I can tell stores have a policy they just don't tell the customers about.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20190227/danish-government-wants-to-...

Given the glacial rate of change in the direction that the actors involve favor that indicates, that's not really an argument for the cash will be gone in 50 years argument so much as one against it.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/privacy-and-data-security/nyc-...

Such contrast, you will not hear this anywhere in India. (Reverse is quite regular)

https://www.thelocal.dk/20190227/danish-government-wants-to-...

https://tangem.com

Of all the expected paper eliminations to come, this is possibly the most important one... and the most important one to get right.

(Why am I getting downvoted?)

What are your thoughts on a cashless society, given your experience.

Alan Turing was truly a great man.

Could you point me towards some more info please, I was entirely unaware of this.

I recently dealt with a 1000 CHF (= £811 = $1018) banknote in Switzerland. It's not very commonly used, but it exists.

I would routinely pay for things (groceries, electronics, etc.) with 100CHF and 200CHF notes without the cashiers batting an eye, while I used the 1000CHF note once or twice for large purchases.

Another interesting point around the money laundering aspects, he was talking with one of the central bankers and it was now considered unpalatable to introduce any bigger sized notes. My friend's point was that when the 1000CHF note was introduced in the early 1900s, adjusting for inflation it was worth a lot lot more.

People [wrongly] get called a paedophile for such behaviour and get pilloried in the social press.

Aside: it always seemed like the simplest explanation for the strangeness around his arrest was that he was compromised (in the national security sense).

Of course none of that relates to his fantastic achievements in computing.

Fry (Christian fundamentalist) and Newton ( Christian fundamentalist writer) -- both of whom have been on bank notes -- probably wouldn't fair well in the court of public opinion nowadays either. Not sure Churchill would make it on anymore either tbh.

You can call it whatever you'd like, but this isn't illegal today.

I've never seen anyone being accused of being a paedophile for having sex with a 19-year-old. Do you have an example? This frankly seems like a backhanded slur on Turing.

> Not sure Churchill would make it on anymore either tbh.

Churchill was added to a bank note a mere three years ago.

Churchill was a drinker. There's plenty of evidence into the 21st century that functioning alcoholics are able to maintain status in most walks of life including politics. Or were you thinking of something else?

His order to bomb Dresden [2]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Debate_a...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_Wa...

Dresden is a much trickier call AFAIK, I don't think this is used widely as an indication of Churchill being morally deficient.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

Churchill was added to the note quite recently. Unfortunately, most British people seem to have a nearly uniformly positive opinion of Churchill, despite the unconscionable atrocities he committed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

No, you're still wrong -- and spreading an awful lot of misinformation in this thread. The age of consent for straight sex was 17 when Turing was convicted. There was no "age of consent" for gay sex as gay sex was illegal at the time. When gay sex was legalized in 1967 (long after Turing was convicted), the age of consent was set to 21 for gay sex and remained at 17 for straight sex. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform_in_the_U...

It's so easy to find this stuff out that I have to wonder if you have some kind of agenda here.

I don't wonder at all!

It says 19 on his Wikipedia page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing_law

This says his conviction was in 1952.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_young_people%27s...

This page says the age of majority was actually 21 for both genders until 1970. So, I had it wrong, Turing would also have been considered as having a relationship with a minor if he had been with a 19 year old girl. Supposedly the actual law he was convicted under was written in a very vauge way due to "Victorian morals" (Wikipedia), and he was convicted under "Gross indecency" without much description.

But if you want to quote the Wiki articles, that's fine, but it seems like you're missing the most important parts:

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing (emphasis mine):

> During the investigation, he acknowledged a sexual relationship with Murray. Homosexual acts were criminal offences in the United Kingdom at that time,[131] and both men were charged with "gross indecency" under Section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885.[132] Initial committal proceedings for the trial were held on 27 February during which Turing's solicitor "reserved his defence", i.e., did not argue or provide evidence against the allegations.

The above flat-out contradicts what you are saying.

Just in case, here's what the Section 11 of the Criminal Law act says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_Amendment_Act_188...:

> The clause provided for a term of imprisonment "not exceeding two years", with or without hard labour, for any man found guilty of gross indecency with another male, whether "in public or in private". No definition was given of what, exactly, constituted "gross indecency", as Victorian morality demurred from giving precise descriptions of activity considered immoral. In practice, "gross indecency" was widely interpreted as any male homosexual behaviour short of actual sodomy, which remained a more serious and separate crime.

Nowhere in any of the above does it say anything about him being arrested or convicted because his partner wasn't at the age of majority, and all of the above say that it was for homosexual acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_indecency

Note that both Turing and Murray were charged with the same crimes, though which of them was charged with 'committing the act' and 'being party to the commission of the act' changes from date to date.

For heterosexual sex. It wasn't until the Sexual Offences Act in 1967 that male homosexual sex was legal at all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history_in_th...

And even then, it was only in your own home, England and Wales, and groups of two. The law wasn't brought into full equivalence with the law for heterosexual sex until 2001:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history_in_th...

2001! Fucking 2001! What is wrong with this country?

[1] https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news/2019/july/50-pound-bank...

$100 bills are more than common, for example, and similar (actually quite a bit more) in value.

They're really not that rare, about 9% of all notes in circulation, or 25% of the total value in circulation.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/banknote

Makes sense to have ones and zeros for the father of electric computers...

I'm curious about other countries now because I never really gave that a thought. I was surprised though when I was in China for the first time and learned the largest one is 100rmb which was around 10€ at that point. It's now more like 15€ and China is rapidly changing to a completely cashless society anyways but it was really weird back then; since using the ATM included a fee, you would get like 4000 bucks at once (depending on how long you stayed) and run around with 40 bills in your pocket.

In the U.K. it’s almost at the point of being cashless - indeed I ate at a restaurant on Saturday night which didn’t accept cash.

In Germany it’s like going back to the UK in the early 90s in that regard. Charges to withdraw money from ATMs, the newly built canteen at the office of a large experiment doesn’t accept card, but also wouldn’t take a €50, which was also what the ATM gave me!

It's frustrating.

(Paying a fixed amount to the bank was a thing in Germany like 10 or 20 years ago.)

Can't be said enough, cash is king in Germany. Go north or east (Poland not so much but Lithuania+) and cash is only useful for tips.

In a part of London with many tourists, I saw them used by people ahead of me in the queue daily. There are some cash machines somewhere in London that dispense them -- possibly in Canary Wharf, I forget.

Conversely, I don't think I've seen a cash machine with fivers.

https://imgur.com/a/sJu9y (cash machine showing it has £20s and £50s).

I remember seeing a preview of the redesigned £5/£10 notes a few years ago and thinking exactly the same thing — seeing Trebuchet MS on a bank note was a bit of a surprise, but thankfully the end result looked far better.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/withdrawn-banknote...

There’s larger note for which you could be receiving it as change.

I know people who get out their cash for the month from a branch and do get 50s.

(Used to be around $80 a few years ago. Thanks Brexit!)

What you want, IIRC, is known as an "uncirculated proof note" - at least, that's what I know it as when it comes to US currency.

They are fairly easy to get from the US Treasury, I believe - as they will typically sell low-denomination proof sets (with coins too) as "collectibles". Whether other countries do the same or not, I am not sure.

If you go to the Bank of England's website:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/

There's a contact link at the top - I believe they are the organization that releases Britain's currency, so I would contact them to find out how you can obtain such an uncirculated note.

Indeed, I want to do the same, and that's where I plan to start. Hopefully, we can get it for the face value (about $63.00 USD at current exchange rates), plus maybe a tad more for shipping, handling, it being uncirculated, etc. I'm expecting - well, hoping - to not pay more than $100.00 USD for the note.

Seems a bit crazy, but then again, I've paid a lot of real money for a fake money note (it was something shot out as "confetti" into the crowd of a concert, and it was in great condition - I never went to that concert because I didn't know the band then - plus I doubt I would have been in the pit where those notes landed - price and danger (mosh) would have deterred my older self).

There might be a nice little side-business for somebody that wants to get fresh new notes and sell them to people like us.

Doesn't seem possible.

I mean - could you potentially get 50 pounds worth of physical British currency at the current exchange rate from a US bank? Certainly - but it won't be proof condition - not by a longshot.

I think if you wanted proof condition (uncirculated) for any note, you have to contact the treasury of that country - which I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) for the 50 pound note, is going to be the Bank of England (I've linked to it above in another reply).

In the US, I believe you have to contact the US Treasury Department; but you could probably just go to a bank for such a note (or an entire filled band if you wanted it) - but for certain things you would likely need to contact them directly I think.

For instance, you used to be able to get uncut bills; IIRC, one of the Steves of Apple fame used to pay things as a joke with these, in the one dollar denomination - he would get the sheets, then have them professionally perforated, and then punched to put them in a binder, and when he'd pay for stuff, he'd open the binder, and tear out the money - it was perfectly legitimate cash, but it threw a lot of people for a loop - I believe it was Woz who did this; Jobs was a bit uptight for that kind of hack - which is what made them a perfect pair - it's just too bad that Woz didn't get to really share in the "fame" of Apple (I think that was his choice, though - from what I know of him, that's how he is mostly).

To get those uncut bills, though, I think you had to travel to the US Treasury and purchase/pick-up in person; it wasn't something you could just easily grab at your bank. Today, they don't sell them at all, probably due to counterfeiting (bleach the paper and re-print higher-denomination bills all at one shot).

Still, I stand by my point that you can get a note of the local currency from a bank brand new (you may have to ask around) and it will be good enough for someone who just wants to have a new one and isn’t going to get it graded.

It might have been a big amount of money 20/30 yrs ago but today it's a bit weird that's the biggest denomination.

Alternatively, there are a lot more £10 notes in circulation, and the previous £10 note had Charles Darwin.

If you're somewhere else, go to your local money exchange place with the equivalent of £50. I almost guarantee they will have some.

[1] https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-...

It's more likely a concern about a counterfeit note, although I've never had that problem with a €50.

And a policy of "no €50s" is simpler and clearer than a policy of "€50s accepted only if we have at least 2 €20s in the till" which means customers won't know if they can pay until they reach the till.

The reasons a small business might not keep a large float of €20s in their till is probably obvious!

That problems happen if you try to use the 100EUR one and obove.

Having said that, when I have friends visit from Singapore, they often seem to carry £50 notes... and most places seem to accept them (although maybe this is less true outside London).

What a great quote.

As for a society honouring it's heroes, it rings a bit hollow when it through persecution killed said heroes. Being honoured when you're dead does you very little good.

I’d rather not have every single bit of communication contain a reminder of some past horror.

Yes.

"If history were different and he were hit by a bus or lived a long life, he would still be an icon, no?"

Yes, but in that situation he would not be such an icon for disenfranchised minorities because the nonsense gay people had to deal with back then wouldn't have been so visible. Are there any other people from that particular point in time and location who are remembered for suffering and dying as he did?

In other words, he's an icon to different people for different reasons? That makes sense.

Young people want to learn about heroes that are like them.

Perhaps some people feel “empowered” by a victim mentality, but that doesn’t seem very socially progressive to me.

The reason we should talk about his fate is that I don't believe in white-washing history. Society was full of assholes who had no problem destroying the lives of people who were different. Keeping light of these atrocities fresh in peoples' minds provides for a mechanism to show the progress of society and helps prevent regressions.

I would hope they're doing this to honor Turing, not to apologize for what they did to him. Face on a bill is nice, but doesn't make up for ruining some one's life, so it would be a lousy apology any way. So I kind of hope the media more covers what Turing accomplished than the things Engkand did.

I bet you want an editorial (and I bet you want one that mirrors your own beliefs and is a bit preachy about it). That's not what this article is for.

Yeah I agree, I assume this is actually the main reason he is so well known and celebrated today. Mere obsession with computers would make Godel, Alonso Church, and others with equivalent models of computation just as famous.

I absolutely disagree.

For one thing, Turing didn't just invent a model of computation - he invented what is seen, in some sense, to be the precursor to the actual, physical computer (the Turing Machine).

But more importantly, in addition to doing that, he actually built one of the first actual computers. And he did that in order to break the German encryption in WW2.

I am a huge fan of Godel's work, don't get me wrong, but Alan Turing was far more important in world history, and indeed in math/science history (though Godel is of course hugely important too).

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte#Second_World_War

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Lorenz_ci...

Everyone talks about Enigma during WW2, but the Poles had mostly figured things out pre-War (for which they're generally forgotten), and it was largely a matter of brute forcing things during the War IMHO.

Not quite. He built the Bombe, which was not a computer. Elsewhere at Bletchley Park, other people built Colossus, one of the earliest electronic computing machines - but still not a computer, really, as it had no program.

After the war, the first computer was built in Manchester, and although Turing was around, and it was clearly based in part on his ideas, my understanding is that he wasn't directly involved with building it.

I think it's Turing's dual role in laying the theoretical foundation of computing and winning World War 2 that made him famous.

I don't think his tragic death has made him more famous; if anything, it delayed his fame - imagine how well-known he would have been if he'd lived on into the computer age! Not a BBC documentary would go by without photos of Turing looking seriously at an ICL 2900, Turing sat at a BBC Model B, an elderly Turing and a thirtysomething Tim Berners-Lee mugging at the camera, etc.

> I don't think his tragic death has made him more famous; if anything, it delayed his fame -

I agree! I was very tempted to answer the parent by saying that Turing isn't very famous. I don't think most people have heard of him, or at least, hadn't 10 years ago. The movie coming out helped, I imagine.

So while it may not be true that the lurid nature of his demise is the reason in a "people like to rubberneck" kind of way, his death at an early age is likely part of why the world knows of his work. Many crypto experts worked secretly for the government and lived and died in obscurity.

Being famous for your work (while still working) and doing secret work tend to be mutually exclusive.

The Turing Machine is something else he is known for (as an aside for his contributions during WW2) but I suspect if you were to ask the average person, they'd suggestion foremostly he cracked German transmissions not built the precursor to the computer.

Perhaps more recently he will have been known to be gay and had committed suicide, because in recent years there has been a lot more about him in the media.

I've got to confess I didn't know much about his later life and suicide for a long time and only really knew of him in regards to WW2 and his part played in computing history.

Thanks for helping win that war.. shame about your sexuality tho