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Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by cldellow on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:05AM (#20222900)
This was a valuable article to read.

Facebook is enormously valuable. They made something like $15B in net income in the last four quarters.

Content moderators are a necessary condition for that profit. If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach.

And yet, there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Facebook: engineers ($150k/year, benefits, upward career trajectory) and content moderators ($30k/year, no benefits, likely going to acquire mental illnesses).

I understand the arguments about supply and demand of labour, but I'd have more respect for Facebook if they demonstrated awareness of this issue. The article talks about moderators re-evaluating the same piece of distressing content that they've already flagged. Why? I suspect because the moderator is cheap, and so Facebook isn't putting in the effort to ensure that every judgment needs to be made the minimum number of times.

More so than salary, I suspect Facebook considers the moderator cheap in terms of reputation risk. By outsourcing to contractors located offsite from main campus, engineers aren't thinking daily about the absolutely horrible stuff moderators are seeing, and so the one group doesn't impact Facebook's ability to hire engineers. This is a guess - can anyone at Facebook speak to whether engineers are aware of the working conditions of moderators, and agitate to improve their lot?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ummwhat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:30PM (#20228376)
I've talked about this somewhere else. What you're seeing is just a manifestation of what I call "the fundamental problem of user created content." Said problem is that warehousing and distributing content scales insanely well but curation does not. Until we have strong AI, curation is a manual process. Moderators just aren't efficient enough at processing content for their output to pay for a full time salary. You can cut costs by making end users into moderators (the Reddit model) but results may vary.

This problem applies to other forms of sites and content as well. The app store gets hundreds of submissions in the game category per day. Hosting and distributing that content is easy. Only a tiny fraction of those games are going to be played and rated enough times to show up in a recommendation engine. The bulk of the incoming content stream isn't being matched to interested people at all (sorting by interesting is the same curation issue as filtering by offensive).

Literally every content platform is going to have some problem similar to Facebook. We can blame Facebook, but the reality is no one has a good solution. Not even me.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by harry8 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:19PM (#20228955)
The solution is to legislate it be done properly which is a business expense. Where it is too expensive to be done properly, there is no business case to have a user created content platform. Being a platform is enormously lucrative, shirking the responsibilities to cut costs and make it even more so is evil. Really.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by gradys on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:21PM (#20229271)
Could you describe some potential legislation you'd be happy with? How would you define "properly"? I'm especially interested in how this would work in places like the United States where there are strong free speech laws.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by harry8 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:53PM (#20229412)
The detail of how best to regulate is a subject matter for experts, not me. In principle precisely the same way we have legislated against pumping sulphur dioxide out of a chimney in the atmosphere. Same rules for everyone. Now go and compete. You get experts on pollution, mitigation and economics to advise on what will work best for the outcomes you want to achieve. Similar domain experts are required here.

Now I have no doubt that facebrick and the evil-goog will try for regulatory capture and employ their vast army of Washington lobbyists in rent-seeking activities but that is a separate problem applicable in every industry where market failure means you have to regulate, not just this one. (And yes it does need solving, absolutely urgently). If you don't have to regulate because the market is working, great! Don't regulate! That's not what we have here, this is market failure but we haven't yet regulated. It will come because there are clearly externalities in this market, Well it will come unless we give up on democracy first. Something with which facebrick and evil-goog seem really comfortable as long as they supplant it.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by rhizome on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:20PM (#20228661)
>Said problem is that warehousing and distributing content scales insanely well but curation does not

I don't think it's a problem any more than weather is a "problem" that required the invention of the roof. As far as user-generated content goes, it's easy to invent the hose, but the faucet is much more complex.

It's irresponsible to provide only acceleration ("reach," "virality," etc.) for information without also implementing brakes. Moderation has been a known fix for decades, but people like Zuck -- in disposition and inexperience -- won't launch anything human-powered, and moderation requires a human eye. Fuck us, right?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ummwhat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:47PM (#20228795)
I think you're view will change when you start putting numbers on it. I'm going to talk about the games in the app store example because it's the instance of the problem that I first thought about and it is easier to put a monetary value on an app than on a comment.

Let's suppose Apple wants to make sure every game in their store gets at least 5 ratings. To do this they are going to pay people to play each game for 5 min and then assign a rating. In an hour a curator can get through 12 games. Over an 8 hour day thats 96 games. Apple would need to hire about 7 (iirc) full time employees just to give every game one rating. We wanted every game to have 5 ratings. Assuming that users on average provide one rating (but sometimes 0), we still need curators to provide the other 4. That means Apple would be employing 28 full time employees just to get their content minimally curated.

Let's use the salary from the article and say each curator costs 30k a year. That means this whole department of curation is going to cost about 900k a year.

Most of what they are sorting is going to be shovelware anyway. To justify the cost of this department, the curators need to find gems, content that's really good but would have otherwise been looked over. They need to find 900k of gems per year. Considering the average earning of an app, this is just barely plausible. If you want to do anything more advanced with your curation, like have the curators generate key words or figure out which demographic might like it, your budget is blown for sure.

IDK how the economics of comment curation works out, but I bet it's even worse. After all, no one is even paying for comments, and making a comment is way less effort than making an app.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by rhizome on Thursday June 20, 2019 @08:37PM (#20238845)
Why would they keep all the other numbers the same? They could raise the cost to list an app. They could charge extra for a "verified by Apple" designation. Charging monthly fees to be listed in the app store at all. Any of these would raise the bar on mere submissions to the app store, and beyond that supply a positive signal to the end user. There are plenty more options along these lines, too, but conventional business practice is to preserve the illusion that the internet is $free.

I don't care how much it costs, though, and I don't think Zuck cares either. If FB remains unmoderated it will invariably turn in to a shithole and people will go elsewhere rather than wading through a bunch of racist anti-vax cartoons just to find out where their friends are meeting for lunch next week. FB has plenty of money to pay as many human moderators as it would take to stop complaints, in all languages, but they won't. Where FB might go bankrupt if they don't implement brakes on reach, they'd just as soon prefer to go bankrupt rather than hire humans to do the work.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by BRAlNlAC on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:09PM (#20234932)
I don’t understand your argument at all. Is 900k/year to curate a store that’s on almost all of their products (or even one) supposed to be a lot for Apple? Seems like a rounding error to me. Not too mention that the real benefit isn’t from finding gems but from not allowing rotten content to spoil your platform. If they(FAANGs) can poach neuroscientists with 7 figure salaries like we saw yesterday, they can afford to have humans do moderation and not treat those moderators like garbage. Also they aren’t doing comment moderation, but content, mostly videos in the article it seemed. The fact of the matter is causing PTSD in your workers is an enormous (not to mention cruel) externality that Facebook absolutely needs to be held accountable for.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ummwhat on Thursday June 20, 2019 @05:17PM (#20237482)
The confusion arises because I'm not at all talking about filtering rotten content (aka facebooks instance of the problem). I'm talking about sorting for good content, possibly identifying a niche hit in a stack of shovelware. On the surface these are very different tasks but they are both manifestations of what I'm calling the fundemental problem. The task of curating, that is identifying the content of incoming data to either sort or filter it, must still be done by hand and thus rarely if ever pays for itself. Sure 900k is a rounding error to Apple, but how much do they make off that 900k? And keep in mind the 900k figure was a bare minimum just to accomplish 5 ratings.

The issue is that if you want to identify content as "fun", "offensive", "dramatic", "tense", "crass" or any other of the myriad of labels that haven't been machine learned, very quickly the labor to generate these labels will cost more than the value generated by these labels.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by BRAlNlAC on Friday June 21, 2019 @04:04PM (#20245884)
Thanks, this makes much more sense. Typically we’ve used the market as a judge/pre-judge, but low inspiration me-too content in an opaque marketplace seems to disrupt this model significantly. It seems to me the value, especially for Apple, would be from having a better store UX. Tags that find users good stuff may not lead to Gems that you can pump to get more sales, but it might mean on-boarding a % more users per quarter to your service/ecosystem—especially over time as reputation builds. Conversely, if the App Store becomes too cluttered with garbage users may lose interest in the device or even ecosystem entirely if the quality of new apps they discover drops off dramatically due to a lack of tools/curation. An efficient curated store certainly improves the feeling of an experience versus one loaded with junk. Tagging isn’t trivial, however it can lead to a much better experience.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ngold on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:22PM (#20228672)
15 billion dollars in pure profit. You could pay a living wage with health benefits, or you could hire twice as many people and have everyone work less while paying more.

This is just Facebook being cheap.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nojvek on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:57AM (#20230014)
Something something. Corporations are hive mind AI optimizing for growth and profit. They don’t give a shit. Amazon doesn’t give a shit unless it impacts the bottom line. Google barely has support and YouTube kids is full of questionable content.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by solstice on Thursday June 20, 2019 @07:16AM (#20231653)
The image of the Chernobyl liquidators just popped into my mind, each worker only allowed to shovel radiative shit for 90 seconds before having a mandatory time out. Treating content moderators in a similar way seems like a step into the right direction from a mental health perspective
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Meskupie on Thursday June 20, 2019 @08:33AM (#20232193)
The largest impact events will likely be the smaller percentage of posts that really resonate with the moderator. What would be best is the flexibility to take a break after reviewing those level of posts rather than simply periodically.

The most important thing for moderators would be group and individual therapy sessions run at work with hired therapists. Group therapy is great because you can relate to other moderators struggles which helps process, and individual to help process the most traumatic events. This is what Kik has implemented and seems to be effective.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:32PM (#20228387)
> We can blame Facebook, but the reality is no one has a good solution.

We can take a step backwards and eliminate Facebook, Insta, etc from our societies and enact legislation that will govern the second generation of social networks.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Jedi72 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:41PM (#20228439)
What legislation? Specifically? What do you want to make law, that they have to hire moderators (which they already do?) or do you want to make it illegal to post "bad things" on the internet?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:23PM (#20229285)
I would start with a few things:

- Make social networks mandated reporters for suspected child abuse. Like teachers or little league coaches, reporting would absolve them of liability.

- Prohibit generation of profit from illegal activity.

- Require transparency in political advertising, with an accountable entity and individual listed and publicly available.

- Require reporting of funding source and material individuals for paid political advertising.

- Make the platform liable for false product claims in cases where the platform facilitates direct or implied endorsements for a product. (“Jedi72 likes this homeopathic cancer treatment!”

- Make the platform responsible for reasonable efforts to block and report on actions against fictitious users posing as people. Share liability for any claims, including libel, resulting from the actions of fictitious people.

A regulatory regime like this would either improve the signal/noise ratio or cause the company to abandon or prohibit certain actions or functions.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:07PM (#20228598)
Let me start by saying that I am not running for elected office because it's a really hard job; even though I might believe I would do it with more integrity and rationality than the next person, I'm also smart enough to realize that everyone thinks that way and I'd probably end up within a standard deviation of average corruption.

What I'm saying, seriously, is that we need a society-wide blameless post-mortem on social networks. It needs to be a slow, careful discussion, where all the stakeholders have their voices heard, and we decide what is good for us all. I don't know that we need them at all, I'm not sure they provide ANY value to ANYONE, but as a non-user I'd of course be open to persuasion by current victims. Erm, users. In the meantime, it should be illegal to operate a social network. Nobody needs to go to prison yet, even though I think it's horrifyingly clear at this point that the ethics are out the window.

One obvious one: advertising and public conversation must always be separated; the same way no public schoolteacher may read scripture in class, it should be illegal for an internet service that hosts public conversation (e.g. Twitter) to allow sponsored content.

We should also establish guidelines for addiction. After cigarettes, drugs, sugar, etc; we should as a society be prepared to understand the various forms that addictive products can take and regulate them aggressively before they become serious problems. UX patterns like infinite scroll, pull-to-refresh, and push notifications are particularly suspect.

I also think we should close the apparent loophole in COPPA that allows parents to post photos of their children on social networks.

> that they have to hire moderators (which they already do?) or do you want to make it illegal to post "bad things" on the internet?

I tend to come down on the "free speech" side of these issues as much as possible; I would prefer unregulated public fora that (perhaps by requiring identity verification) encouraged good-faith participation in substantial discussions. I think if you are just fooling around, maybe you should head down to the bar and get drunk with your friends and do your shit talking there.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:19PM (#20228656)
> What I'm saying, seriously, is that we need a society-wide blameless post-mortem on social networks

Social networks aren't dead, so we can't have a post-mortem.

Also, you can't have a society-wide blameless analytical conversation about anything, especially if there are significant conflicting interests involved; that's not how people work. (It's perhaps noteworthy that even while suggesting this you offer no objective descriptions of impacts with reasoned analysis of contributing factors, instead jumping straight to blame and policy responses, with some labelled as “obvious”.)

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Macross8299 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @06:18AM (#20231405)
>In the meantime, it should be illegal to operate a social network

So what about the countless number of people whose livelihoods depend on social media in some capacity? They're supposed to just be fine with being irrevocably fucked over until the moral panic about social media subsides? (or, in your words, "we decide what is good for us all")

Where does the small business owner who depends on a social network factor in as a "stakeholder"?

Drugs, sugar, cigarettes are measurably and objectively harmful to your health and that's why they are regulated (or should be).

There isn't similar comparable scientific evidence that social media is nearly as harmful except for questionable non-reproducible psychology studies, so I don't think it's comparable at all.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Thursday June 20, 2019 @11:30AM (#20233885)
I hear you saying you don't believe social media is addictive. Will you please kindly open the "digital wellbeing" app (or whatever it's called on iOS) on your phone and share the number of hours you've used social networks over the last week?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by reciprocity on Thursday June 20, 2019 @11:10PM (#20239565)
I couldn't help but notice that your comment doesn't address the other parts of his argument, nor did you choose to respond to the earlier reply you received (by dragonwriter) outlining the legitimate flaws in the reasoning you provided with your initial opinion.

Social media has a lot of problems - even this article on just Facebook outlines a number of them [0] but I agree with the above poster in saying that you can't have a societal post-mortem analysis of the effects of social media given its very much _not dead_ state. Advocating that society just presses a 'shut down' button until "we collectively decide how we should proceed" is an entirely unrealistic scenario.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @02:39PM (#20338107)
> nor did you choose to respond to the earlier reply you received

HN's posting frequency limits made that choice for me. The system is unfortunately biased towards drive-by comments and against engaging with feedback on your own comments.

Edit:

> Advocating that society just presses a 'shut down' button until "we collectively decide how we should proceed" is an entirely unrealistic scenario

But that's what I'm advocating. I don't think I'm obligated to respond to people who only came by to reject the premise of my argument. More interesting discussions are available to anyone who shows up with an open mind.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jki275 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:33PM (#20229620)
You claim to be for free speech, yet most of what you propose directly infringes on the concept. You don’t get to determine who gets to say what.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by closeparen on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:56PM (#20229431)
The point of free speech is that it’s not regulated according to an opinion about “what is good for us all” or what is “needed.”
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by 1stcity3rdcoast on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:50PM (#20228501)
Ah, yes, Congress — the most competent subject matter experts regarding the internet and technology.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Chazprime on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:07PM (#20228596)
Well, to do that you’d need a congress that has the first clue what social media even is, and I’m guessing the US is easily 5-10 years away from that.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ummwhat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:15PM (#20228640)
How does that solve the problem that the incoming content stream flows faster than any curation mechanism we can economically build today?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by joeblubaugh on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:08PM (#20234259)
Well, first you slow the content stream by imposing a rate limit per-user, and users who post things that violate the policy are stopped from posting for a longer time.

Second, you do better at automatically detecting duplicate content that’s already been banned.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:17PM (#20229256)
It’s fundamental that some members of the public are problems. By prohibiting the content but keeping the people around, they are curating a culture where predators are allowed to roam on the platform as long as they don’t cross a specific line.

They do this because acknowledging and dealing with bad users would also mean impacting fake users that make them money with ad fraud, growth metrics and ginning up engagement.

End of the day, if you operate a social platform, and you have people uploading child pornography and animal torture video, you should do everything in your power to make the user go away, for good.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nojvek on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:01AM (#20230033)
I don’t get the point of animal torture videos. The asking of meat consumed in the world is ludicrous. Eating meat is supporting animal torture in a way.

Just saying.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xodice on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:14PM (#20234972)
Eating meat is part of life, no one is torturing them. Torture is for a reason or for fun. There is a reason some animals are raised and used for food and its not to have fun torturing them.

I let you live your way, don't try to force others to live your way by using "scare tactics".

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by c0vfefe on Friday June 21, 2019 @10:22PM (#20247652)
Well, certain practices common within the meat industry are torturous, regardless of whether they're intended for fun. "Food, Inc." & "Earthlings" are good resources.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nibbula on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:46PM (#20229676)
"Strong" AI is a person, whom you also shouldn't mistreat. Let's hope they think the same about us.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lone_haxx0r on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:05PM (#20229477)
Do you mean a bussiness solution or a solution to the "social problem" of people posting disgusting content?

I have no bussiness solution, but the solution to the latter is to simply ignore/block people who post stuff you don't like.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Miner49er on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:17AM (#20223564)
Facebook won't do anything to help these moderaters unless the cost of the negative PR exceeds the cost of doing something. Engineers at FB could help achieve this by causing agitation, for sure.

Maybe the best solution is for the moderaters to unionize.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by plankers on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:29PM (#20227992)
If you can think of a practical way to unionize workers on a 1-2 year contract with a high turnover rate, I'd love to hear it.

The deck is stacked against employee organization. If I were conspiracy-minded, I might even say this was by design.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Barrin92 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:53AM (#20229992)
>If you can think of a practical way to unionize workers on a 1-2 year contract with a high turnover rate, I'd love to hear it.

Adopt the Danish model, make it mandatory for companies with workforces over a certain size to at least vote on unionisation. Will shift the default from not being unionised to being unionised except for cases were the workforce is actively convinced its detrimental.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by plankers on Thursday June 20, 2019 @05:30AM (#20231210)
I love that idea! But I have a hard time seeing a law like that being passed in the U.S., even in liberal California.

Side thought, things like this help me understand why the Danes are so darn happy.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:30PM (#20228378)
They don't actually meet the legal requirements of contractors. In CA, anyway, they'd have to be full time employees since they do the same thing every day, full time, they are required to be on-prem during dictated hours, and the business relies on their work (e.g. they can never finish their project.)
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by otterley on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:34PM (#20228401)
The moderators are employees of the contracted organization (Cognizant, in this case). They’re not employees of FB.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:38PM (#20228420)
Cognizant pays them hourly; they are referred to as "contractors" multiple times in the article, while the word "salary" does not appear.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:27PM (#20228699)
Hourly employees are still employees. Salary v. Hourly is completely different distinction from employee/contractor (you can have an hourly or fixed monthly/annual contract rate, and you can get either model as an employee, though salary is more common if your pay and working conditions make you an FLSA exempt employee, since otherwise you might need to be treated as hourly for overtime and certain other things anyway.)
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ihm on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:01PM (#20228203)
The union would be stronger if it included the engineers too, who have more leverage.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by consumer451 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:25PM (#20228351)
In my idealized universe FB engineers would have to rotate through moderation for 1 week per year. In my impossibly idealized universe the C suite would do the same.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by esoterica on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:50PM (#20229401)
Every single union in the planet was formed because workers wanted to improve their own wages and working conditions. Nobody organizes to protect other people’s interests. Why should engineers be the only rubes on the planet using their bargaining power to help other people instead of themselves?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by mistersquid on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:36PM (#20229633)
> Every single union in the planet was formed because workers wanted to improve their own wages and working conditions. Nobody organizes to protect other people’s interests.

This overlooks the possibility that workers with different statuses can recognize commonality and, so, unionize as a coalition.

This is precisely what happened when the graduate students at the University of Virginia unionized with the University classified staff under UAW for health care and a living wage in 1996ish (? IIRC).

Workers can unionize across pay grades and professional classification if and when it suits such workers to do so.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by zamber on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:26PM (#20228697)
I'm convinced that unionizing at this scale does not work. They'll always find cheaper people to do the grunt work which presumably is there only to teach the AI. Maybe when the AI is stable enough this AI "caretaker" position will take over and the burden of traumatic content will be alleviated. Maybe.

Up until then people should unionize. Do whatever it takes to create a workplace whichd by human eyes at all, or worst case just once.

reply

Miner49er 10 hours ago [-]

Facebook won't do anything to help these moderaters unless the cost of the negative PR exceeds the cost of doing something. Engineers at FB could help achieve this by causing agitation, for sure.

Maybe the best solution is for the moderaters to unionize.

reply

plankers 1 hour ago [-]

If you can think of a practical way to unionize workers on a 1-2 year contract with a high turnover rate, I'd love to hear it.

The deck is stacked against employee organizatio does not drain sanity from people.

Personally I understand browsing toxic content to foster "immunity" or at least familiarity. Doing it for money sounds like a lose-lose scenario. Call centers seem to sound better given the conditions.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by shujito on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:30PM (#20228003)
...which it's unlikely to happen because of the NDA's they have to sign.

If there's something wrong with this reasoning, please elaborate.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:56PM (#20228173)
> ...which it's unlikely to happen because of the NDA's they have to sign.

> If there's something wrong with this reasoning, please elaborate.

I would be utterly surprised if an NDA could be used to prevent an employee from exercising their right to organize (in the US at least). Just because you sign something does not make it legally enforceable.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by greghatch on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:17PM (#20228298)
Yeah - but how would they know what is legally enforceable or not?

It's really complicated and I don't think it's reasonable to assume people have access to a clear answer on enforceability and certainly not an answer they could rely upon enough to risk their job over,

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:54PM (#20228522)
I agree the whole thing is complicated and especially hard to navigate without guidance. I was merely responding to parent asking to validate their reasoning.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:37AM (#20223748)
I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. If it's an okay job that isn't really worth the pay, they will have high turnover. High turnover has a cost, maybe it's worth it to them. If the turnover is so high or the job is so undesirable, maybe they'll axe the role. If the role is so important to the business that it can't be axed, but people aren't taking the jobs, they'll have to pay more for it. If they can't pay more for it because it cuts too much into profitability, but it's necessary for the company to operate, then they are no longer a viable company in the market. Or they'll have to innovate or adapt. All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sandworm101 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:42AM (#20223795)
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

That assumes perfect knowledge. As mentioned in the article, these moderators often do not understand what they are getting into until long after they have committed to the job. Once you have quit a previous job, moved, setup your new life, only then do you realize your new "brand consultant" job means watching kittens die all day.

Jobs like this also open persons to realities that we normal keep tucked away deep in our brains. We all know that cops don't investigate most reported crimes, but that doesn't come up very often for us. A facebook moderator sees the crimes, sees the lack of response by the police or anyone else, every minute. Repeatedly, every minute. Nobody can appreciate what this does to ones' mental state until you have been there.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by debacle on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:44AM (#20223822)
Nobody moves for $30k a year.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by skyyler on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:49AM (#20223859)
Are you serious? I know people that have moved for less. Making absolute statements like that doesn't do much for anyone.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sandworm101 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:51AM (#20223887)
Lol. Ever seen a migrant camp? Ever talked to a seasonal farm laborer? People will literally walk across continents for 30k/years.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jumbopapa on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:58AM (#20223949)
Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lifeformed on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:40AM (#20224300)
The word is "exploitive". Desperate people will do things because they have to. If I pay a homeless person $20 to humiliate himself, is that a fair transaction, or an exploitation of the asymmetry between our conditions?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:31PM (#20229313)
To the chubby engineer type in 2019, yes. Make the drunk dwarf dance, it’s a free market.

When recession strikes and the gravy train ends, the same folks will be wearing Che Guevara T-shirts crying about unfairness.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ekianjo on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:08PM (#20228602)
There is no obligation for anyone to do anything. Do you assume that there is no free will and we are all like robots driven by short term profits?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pizza234 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @08:01AM (#20231958)
That doesn't answer the parent's question.

If you call 20$, for a person who owes nothing and is probably starving, a "short term profit", you've very likely never experienced how is it to live in poor conditions.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:17AM (#20224099)
It is very possible to "improve" somebody's life and still be abusing your power over them and causing them damage in other ways.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:59PM (#20228184)
> Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?

Being put in prison is an improvement for many individuals in so far as they are guaranteed three square meals and a warm place to lay their head. Would you seriously argue that that's an improvement that is worth the cost to the individual?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by bluntfang on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:40AM (#20224301)
yes.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by zild3d on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:29PM (#20228706)
That's really absurd to say, do you realize that $30k/yr is in the top 4% globally?

https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?...

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:57PM (#20228181)
> Nobody moves for $30k a year.

I personally know people who have moved for half that amount.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:49AM (#20223858)
"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "Both very busy, sir..." "Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

C. Dickens: A Christmas Carol. In Prose. Being a Ghost Story of Christmas, 1843

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:46AM (#20224359)
That literally describes the problem though. There are too many people that can do that job, so there's a surplus supply for it to be valuable to the market. It isn't the responsibilities of the Scrooges and the Facebooks to account for the fact that there isn't enough demand for that position for it to pay well. If people are unable to find work, or are otherwise unable to have enough stability so as to avoid exploitative work, that becomes a societal responsibility. Don't tell Facebook what that job should be worth, or what it should entail, that doesn't make any sense. Just like minimum wage laws, they don't make any sense.

If we're legitimately talking about situations where the balance of power is so unfavorable to the unemployed individual, the solution is to start talking about UBI, not micromanaging very specific roles at very specific companies.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:49AM (#20224391)
https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536

edit: if it was not clear, facebook is in fact part of society (by definition) and their responsibility is proportional to their role in society, no more no less.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:55AM (#20224451)
Yes, and taxes + UBI would represent that proportion. This meme is also only ridiculous because of the $100 figure. What if someone paid you $20k to fuck off. $100k to fuck off?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:32PM (#20225287)
Sorry for the discourse, my polisci past is flaring up but I do in fact explain why I support this (silly) tweet.

There are some kinds of nonviolent behavior we don't allow because we (I guess we is majority of society?) think it's wrong, often around issues of financial exploitation. For example, even if you are mentally sound you can't sell yourself into indentured servitude because that tends to only happen when someone with power exploits someone desperate, often (but not always) due to reasons out of their control.

UBI is basically an artificial wage. Like a lot of things in life, a wage is a negotiation between two entities of vastly different levels of power. As every public company proudly proclaims, the value of what employees do for them is far far less then the value the employees receive.

Why do you think those workers accept this fact? They like getting less value than they generated? It's clearly the result of an exploitative power dynamic - one side has to work or not eat, the other does not.

If you think someone should not have medicine and food dangled over their head in work negations, the answer is workers need to be paid in real value of the capital that they create and that needs to law.

I hope one day our wages are looked back on like no minimum wage, the 6 day 14+ hr work day, child labor, indentured servitude, slavery and etc which were often viewed as normal at their time but now disgusting.

This GIF is mocking the idea of UBI and while for sure a silly meme, has an element of truth IMO.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by closeparen on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:04PM (#20229473)
Why would it need to be law? Since, in your view, capital / management / entrepreneurship contribute nothing of value, workers should have no problem creating successful businesses without them. Particularly if UBI takes care of basic needs during the early stages.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:06AM (#20230061)
Why do feel the need to misrepresent my argument? When did I say that management contributes nothing of value? Of all the arguments I was expecting, this one surprises me as it makes no sense.

Capitalism works on leveraging advantage to pay workers less than the value that they create. Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue to suggest magic discount coupons (UBI) which are worth less than the value a worker creates are something besides slavery with extra steps?

Feel free to scoff/mock me for questioning sacred holy capitalism - when immoral ideals are questioned and no logical answer is available, history tells us emotion and feelings are the standard responses.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by closeparen on Sunday June 23, 2019 @05:50AM (#20254303)
A thing is worth its market-clearing price. Facebook has $15B in revenue and pays $12B in expenses (for the sake or argument, it's all payroll). I claim the workers are getting exactly what they're worth, and the remaining $3B is the value contributed by capital/management. Your claim seems to be that workers created the full $15B in value, and the $3B is being stolen from them. Apologies if you meant something else.

If that's true, Facebook's workforce could quit tomorrow, go build a competitor, and claim the full $15B for themselves. Why don't they do that?

The traditional Communist argument has been that they can't because capital owns the means of production. Factory workers would happily go start their own factory, but they can't afford the machines to fill it. That argument doesn't work too well here: the means of production needed to build Facebook are accessible even to college students. Basically an editor, a scripting language, a web server, and some linux boxes.

Another reasonable argument is that they can't because they need to eat. The time it would take between quitting their jobs at Facebook, Inc. and seeing revenue from Facebook Co-Op would exhaust their savings. That is a problem UBI can solve. It's not that UBI pays what you are worth, but that it removes the urgency that sometimes prevents people from getting their full value in the market.

This idea - that workers create all the value in a company, not just the subset they are paid for - is testable. If you're sure it's true and you want everyone else to believe it, then I think you'd want to run the experiment. UBI could be a way of doing that. Could also do grants that pay living expenses during entrepreneurial activity, or just straight-up house and feed co-op founders without asking for an equity stake.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:32PM (#20229316)
Do you know what a Victorian-era workhouse is?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:09AM (#20230072)
If someone suffered more than you, your suffering is invalid - is that your argument? Trying to understand what you are arguing.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:21PM (#20234392)
Workhouses were the UBI of the era. Sort of a combo welfare and prison.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pfortuny on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:55AM (#20223913)
Thanks for posting this. There are people who do not get it.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Lewton on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:48AM (#20223851)
> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

That is not how the labor market works... At all.

"Worth the pay" is overridden by "absolutely need this money for me or my kids to survive"

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:54AM (#20224434)
I responded to another poster. Desperation (debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States) breaks markets, sure, but that doesn't mean that they suddenly need to be micromanaged. I have long been in favor of UBI in order to remove desperation from the table. I'm not, however, in favor of micromanaging roles at companies and arbitrarily determining what they're worth.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by dragonsky67 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @03:02AM (#20230557)
I've seen desperation in Australia, and our social welfare is head and shoulders above the US. US$30,000 would revolutionise many peoples lives. They would put up with a lot of crap to get that type of money.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by p1necone on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:59PM (#20229157)
> debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States

Wha...? Are you really that far removed from reality?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by 8bitsrule on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:24PM (#20228344)
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

Tell that to the people who pick your fruits and veggies.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by social_quotient on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:55PM (#20228525)
I think the same about Uber and the drama with drivers. If the work is so bad, pay so terrible, riders don’t want to pay more, then why hasn’t the market killed itself?

Now we have gov externalities trying to legislate something that shouldn’t have existed?

I’m not saying any of this is write or wrong, I’m just at a loss how people get mad at Uber when the model shouldn’t have made it. Where did the market dynamics go wrong here?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:38PM (#20229339)
It will, but it will take a few years.

The issue with Uber is they pay $0.70/mi for a task where the cost of fulfilling the task is $1.00. The drivers do it because they can get quick cash with no friction.

You can already see the system breaking down. Uber XLs are getting older and shittier. 2012 Dodge Caravan that picked me up at the airport will be dead in a year. As the situation goes on, someone will die in a fiery wreck by an Uber with no brakes, and it will gather the national attention and kill the company.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by manfredo on Thursday June 20, 2019 @10:49AM (#20233445)
I always thought that the car age requirement was dumb. I drove a 2007 Subaru and it still worked perfectly. Another person I knew drove a 1997 BMW that's better than most Ubers I take.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:20PM (#20234382)
I drive a 2003 Honda. It’s a great car in great shape. If I used in as an urban livery vehicle, it wouldn’t be in great shape.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by michaelt on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:04PM (#20225055)

  I don't understand how this
  isn't a problem perfectly
  solved by the market.
If I offer a homeless person $30 to let me spit on their face and they accept, the market has worked perfectly - but some people will still think I'm an asshole for spitting on that homeless person.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sonnyblarney on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:32PM (#20228388)
Below a certain level, people don't have any leverage at all.

Most people depend on their meagre income quite greatly, it's a bold thing to say someone could just 'quit' their job and spend 9 months looking for another one, especially if they don't have some pretty hard skills.

So in the realm of talent, yes, it would solve itself, which is why devs et. al. often get 'free lunch' among other things.

For most working people, it's much harder.

"All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics."

Yes, of course, but the incredible power asymmetry between FB and not hugely skilled workers is the dynamic that drives all of this.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Shivetya on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:18AM (#20223566)
anyone who has done moderation for any active forum can tell you how nightmarish it can be. the more popular the platform the more problems you can have.

anecdotal, friend who streams on twitch also mods for a few streamers and they even have issues when a stream is in subscriber mode only. simply because anonymity and distance from those being affected empower people to do bad things

edit : I am really surprised there is/are not companies which would spring up to provide these services seeing how most of these activities are required by law.

however before bemoaning what they are paid, just go look at your local 911 operators who are government employees. just because we think it should be paid more doesn't mean others do.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by kevingadd on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:42PM (#20228072)
Anonymity is definitely empowerment (especially because Twitch has no effective ban system, so bad actors will create dozens of accounts and keep coming back), but even people acting under their real names will do horrible things. We've seen this with real names on FB/Google+.

It seems like there are no easy solutions for this and it's really frustrating: Societal norms are just completely shredded right now.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nvr219 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:54PM (#20228160)
> but even people acting under their real names will do horrible things. We've seen this with real names on FB/Google+.

And on twitter. Their most famous user uses his real name.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by m463 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:55PM (#20228524)
Stuff like this should be brought in-house. You can't outsource responsibility. Engineering and AI/pattern matching should be in the loop as a key ingredient so that a terrible image/video won't have to be viewed by human eyes at all, or worst case just once.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by laminar_flow on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:53PM (#20228825)
I would agree. Having to watch some of this stuff is a great incentive to make the AI better.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jfindley on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:47AM (#20223844)
Given the description of the videos in the article, I'm not sure that merely paying the moderators more would solve it.

I think for most people that I'd want to be moderating content (e.g. not sociopaths) making them richer isn't going to do anything to deal with the real reason this is worse than a call centre - the content itself. I'd rather see facebook put more effort into protecting moderators from the content they're viewing. I realise this is a non-trivial problem, but here's a few ideas of things they could do which may help:

* Once a video is confirmed bad, fingerprint it and block future uploads.

* Provide colour-inversion buttons to help reduce visual impact

* Rotate people between areas, so they aren't looking at the same class of bad content constantly

* Use ML training to detect which content is likely to be the most severe and for this content, reduce minimum viewing interval to ~ 5 seconds, and ensure that a single individual doesn't get too many of these.

* Flag accounts who post bad content too often, and shadow-ban them so their posts are not visible by anyone else (this could go in stages, starting off by blocking re-shares of their posts or something)

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jnbiche on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:40PM (#20228437)
> Flag accounts who post bad content too often

Too often? If we're talking about content that is traumatic to view (extreme violence, child porn, etc) then I think one time is enough for a flag, no?

That said, I do agree that shadow banning is the best option. Let them spin their wheels for a few weeks posting content before they realize no one is seeing it.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by zanmat0 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:33PM (#20225303)
>* Provide colour-inversion buttons to help reduce visual impact

To add to this, some degree of pixelation would help without impacting the accuracy of assessments.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by quadcore on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:46AM (#20224361)
Provide colour-inversion buttons to help reduce visual impact

I was thinking also about blurring the picture/video.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by afasadaf on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:08PM (#20225090)
They could have levels, and use moderator consensus to remove the pictures

1. Blurred+Mosaic 2. Contour lines only 3. Windowed/Striped (only showing like 10-25% of the photo)

If 2/3 of the moderators above agree that it's a bad photo, it moves onto stage 4:

4. Color filters - Break the photo down into k-means color clusters, moderators choose which colors to see. They can see 100% of the colors, or one, or two, or however many they need.

If #4 agrees, the photo goes into the round folder.

No need for anyone to ever see the whole photo. It'll be pretty obvious that something was violating the TOS without anyone being able identify anything specific about the photo.

We're not talking about 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' here, we're talking about 'yeah, that's probably not ok.'

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by RegBarclay on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:12AM (#20222975)
I thought the same thing -- that once content is moderated, it should be trivial to block exactly the same content from being posted and moderated again. What a waste.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Nasrudith on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:01AM (#20223966)
The problem is actual use and context sensitivity. Since if they let historic signifiant images get flat banned they also look like big bad idiots trying to memory hole history for blocking say death camp images while still having to ban asshats who post it and say "Not enough."

Neither the text nor the image themselves would be ban worthy but in combination it is boot-worthy. Extrapolating has Scunthorpe problem issues.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by LinuxBender on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @04:40PM (#20227121)
The content may get modified quite a bit if censored though. A good example was the ChristChurch video. 4chan members modified it so many times, there are probably 4k-5k different iterations of it. NZ made a big deal about blocking it and arresting people for viewing it, making the demand for it significantly higher. There would have to be some really efficient and highly optimized ML to group all the variations together with a common label. AFAIK this does not exist for videos yet.

The only partial mitigation that comes to mind would be if a small circle of your friends had to "approve" your video before people outside your circle could see it. That would put them on the hook for sharing bad things too. That might even reduce the psychological load on the moderators.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by baud147258 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:10AM (#20222947)
> cheap in terms of reputation risk

Also in terms of the reputation of Facebook: any issue with moderation failures and Facebook can easily says that it's the contractor's fault

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:29AM (#20223658)
Re: salaries, don't forget that there's also salaries working on the content moderation problem - taking the huge datasets that the content moderators are reviewing and applying machine learning and content ID and I have no clue what else more to automatically filter out a lot of the content, ideally with such a high certainty rate that the moderators don't see it in the first place.

I want to believe the content moderators only end up seeing the 1% of content that is dubious, or brand new content (not published and hashed earlier). I don't understand in that regard why the one video mentioned in the article (about the iguana) wasn't marked as "ok" in the systems, or marked as "on hold for law enforcement" so the moderators didn't have to see it again.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by anon029102 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:47AM (#20223283)
> Can anyone at Facebook speak to whether engineers are aware of the working conditions of moderators, and agitate to improve their lot?

They are passively aware but mostly don't care. The engineers who express frustration are in the vast minority. Most engineers are just super happy about their own situations, very focused on PSCs, and try to keep to their own stuff. Any internal frustrations are channelled towards appropriate feedback channels where the anger is watered down.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by plankers on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:40PM (#20228067)
Nobody's making waves when everybody is focused on their own struggle. Gamifying for a docile workforce.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by johnkpaul on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:43AM (#20223811)
PSCs?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by tristanperry on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:07AM (#20224018)
From a quick Google, "Performance Summary Cycle" - presumably regular reviews and bonuses.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by hashkb on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:23PM (#20228338)
> Facebook is enormously valuable. They made something like $15B in net income in the last four quarters.

Their profit is not proof they are valuable, because they are willfully abdicating responsibility for the damage they cause, and, further, involving themselves in government debates over their own regulation.

Advertising businesses are inherently suspect, and when one is addictive and potentially enabling election fraud etc, we need to be extra careful in declaring its value.

Anyone participating in the debate should have to disclose if they are a daily user or if their company advertises on any social network. (I'm clean)

Edit: my opinion of course is that FB, Insta, etc (any advertising product with push notifications and/or infinite scroll) ought to be illegal. In 50 or 100 years we'll all recognize that social networks are like internet cigarettes.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by mehrdadn on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:37PM (#20228412)
> my opinion of course is that FB, Insta, etc (any advertising product with push notifications and/or infinite scroll) ought to be illegal. In 50 or 100 years we'll all recognize that social networks are like internet cigarettes.

Well cigarettes are still not illegal, so we have some ways to go...

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by allthecybers on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:02AM (#20229753)
This was an earlier comment that disappeared. Frankly I ask myself consistently "what net value does Facebook add to the world?" other than being a 100% optional vice.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by scarface74 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:15PM (#20225152)
$30k/year, no benefits, likely going to acquire mental illnesses

Why do you think they don’t get benefits? Facebook contracts out to another company. The company they contract with still is probably providing some benefits

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by cldellow on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:24PM (#20225233)
That's true, the article says Cognizant offers "a 24/7 hotline, full healthcare benefits, and other wellness programs". But at the same time, it quotes the on-site counsellor as having said "I don’t really know how to help you guys" when an employee went to him for help.

This leads me to believe that there is a qualitative difference in the calibre of benefits Cognizant provides versus those that Facebook provides.

Further, since the job has high turnover and can be expected to put a high toll on an employee's wellbeing, it's also important to me to think about what happens to their benefits if/when they quit. In the US model of employer-linked healthcare, this tends to result in losing your benefits when you need them most. By contrast, other organizations that do similar moderation jobs seem to offer psychological health care treatment even after the employee leaves the company. See https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/may/25/facebook-modera... for more info.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by krick on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:52AM (#20229987)
> I understand the arguments about supply and demand of labour, but I'd have more respect for Facebook if they demonstrated awareness of this issue.

It is a very politically correct statement, which, as it usually happens with politically correct statements, really says nothing. I mean, what exactly do you propose they should do about it?

I am the last person to defend Facebook, but, seriously, they are running a business. That is, essentially, finding a way to do/own/produce some stuff while spending less on it than you receive for it. And cost management is all about supply and demand.

After all, it's not like Facebook wants to pay engineers $150k/year and for them to be happy. It needs good engineers and the only way to get them is to keep them happy, or else they stop coming. Engineers are not really special, they are not even exactly more necessary than cleaners, and loaders, and content moderators. The only difference is, demand for them is higher than supply.

And that would be tragic in a sense, if everyone would be randomly assigned a role and if you draw an "engineer" you are lucky, but if you draw a "content moderator" you are not. Or if we were talking about some factory in some giant village in Vietnam, where no matter how smart you are and no matter what you do, you'll be working much harder job in conditions far, far worse than described for $500/year and you really don't have any choice.

But we are not. No, this is Florida, $30K/year and these are people choosing the job of content moderator over a job of an engineer, either because they don't want to or cannot do otherwise. They while many of them may have stories that can be seen as tragic (because who hasn't, really?), they are no more victims than anyone else born into living a life on the Earth. And thus, hardly entitled to anything.

Let me be clear: I really hate Facebook and I find companies with a modus operandi like Congizant's distasteful to say the least. And I can see how Cognizant can be held accountable for giving somebody a false hope, luring into doing the job while promising something else. But what exactly do you want for Facebook to do? They want a service as cheap as possible, they get asked a given price, they agree. That's it. It won't save their reputation after an article like this (because, well, public relations...), but it seems just fair.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Bakary on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @02:07PM (#20225591)
>This is a guess - can anyone at Facebook speak to whether engineers are aware of the working conditions of moderators, and agitate to improve their lot?

If you go work at Facebook as a engineer chances are you aren't too bothered by ethical questions

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pawelmurias on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:15AM (#20223000)
It's knowledge workers vs unskilled labour.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by baud147258 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:26AM (#20223638)
There are enough rules that I'd say it still qualify as knowledge work (not as much as developer, but still some level of knowledge):

-Public (https://www.facebook.com/communitystandards) and private guidelines

- A "Known Question" document (15k words)

- Facebook internal Workplace, with real-time (and sometime contradictory) decisions, for breaking news events

from https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebo...

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by McWobbleston on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:29AM (#20223124)
It's also people not being paid nearly the value they produce for an organization. Everything is always a race to the bottom for us
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by eswat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:32AM (#20223156)
I was thinking about this more but you’re right. I doubt there’s any acquired knowledge needed to know what’s repugnant to the human mind.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by cldellow on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:45AM (#20223271)
I don't have first-hand experience with the job, but I've read a few articles about these sort of teams, as they're widely deployed by all the large Internet companies.

In my view, it's knowledge work. Sure, it's knowledge work that almost anyone can be trained to do, but there's a skill set required.

For example, moderators need to make judgment calls that distinguish between offensive uses and artistic/journalistic/parody uses. There are many cultures and in-groups on Earth, which makes this harder than it might seem at first blush. Not all nudity is obscenity, not all hate speech is blatant.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by qudat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:58AM (#20223385)
> For example, moderators need to make judgment calls that distinguish between offensive uses and artistic/journalistic/parody uses. There are many cultures and in-groups on Earth, which makes this harder than it might seem at first blush. Not all nudity is obscenity, not all hate speech is blatant.

In these cases I'm not sure it really matters. Over-moderation is going to win overall and I don't think moderators are going to get into that much trouble for being slightly over-zealous. I could be wrong but I feel like after a week of being on the job you'd get the hang of it.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by baud147258 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:14AM (#20223534)
From the article (and the others on the subject linked at the end of the article), there are many rules, many exception and edges cases and even mandates for current events (for example, there's been a shooting 15 min ago, do you ban or keep the videos?); in addition to judging if content is infringing the rules, the moderator has to select the right rule being broken ("Do I delete it for terrorism? Do I delete it for graphic violence? Do I delete it for supporting a terrorist organisation" from https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/facebook-s-d...).

Some of the decisions taken by the moderators are then reviewed by a "super"-moderator and the match between the two decisions (including the rule chosen) is used as a performance indicator, which has to be above 90% to avoid troubles.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by skybrian on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:28AM (#20223657)
It's not "unskilled" so much as (a) it can be learned on the job and (b) people don't see why they should pay more for top talent.

The second one is pretty important. Consider that sales, sports, and entertainment work similarly, where you can make a case that you should pay more to get the best and workers (or their agents) can use this to good effect.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by svachalek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:29PM (#20224754)
I think "unskilled" and "can be learned on the job" are usually considered equivalent. Nearly anything you need to hire a human to do requires some kind of learning, at least to do "well" or "our way".
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by isolli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:02AM (#20223421)
No, it's market forces. If the world was overflowing with employment opportunities, then unskilled labor would leave unpleasant jobs, and employers would have to pay them as much as it takes for someone to put up with the unpleasantness.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sneak on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:29AM (#20223662)
US unemployment rates are lower than they have been in more than a decade. There are more jobs than applicants.

It could be people prefer working at a desk and a screen in an air conditioned office to, say, schlepping boxes in a warehouse.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by eswat on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:25PM (#20225235)
> It could be people prefer working at a desk and a screen in an air conditioned office to, say, schlepping boxes in a warehouse.

And judging from the article, agencies hiring content moderators are going to do more to paint the work more colourful and being a career-builder, by outright lying about what contractors will actually do day-to-day.

Of course that’s going to look more attractive at face-value than being pitched a warehouse job by the foreman.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sneak on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @03:55PM (#20226741)
There is no penalty to quitting if the workers are unhappy with the work or feel it was misrepresented to them, and the warehouse jobs are still there waiting.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jschwartzi on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:42PM (#20228451)
The penalty is the amount of time you have to spend looking for a new job, and doing it while you're still working your soul-sucking current job.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nswest23 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @09:05AM (#20232458)
for the record the article states that cognizant, the contractor that FB deals w/for content moderation, does provide health benefits:

> Cognizant also offers a 24/7 hotline, full healthcare benefits, and other wellness programs.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by deegles on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:09PM (#20228911)
I think all companies with user generated content should require every employee to moderate content for some amount of time. 1 hour per quarter would be plenty.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nonwifehaver3 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:22PM (#20228330)
How can kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty "flood the network" for people using Facebook? Don't you normally just see things from your friends, ads, and groups that you are a part of? If they post that, either call the cops, block them on Facebook, don't hang out with them irl, or leave the group as appropriate. Problem solved? I haven't used Facebook in 5+ years so maybe this is no longer accurate.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lazyasciiart on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:36PM (#20228410)
As you may have guessed from the downvotes, this is not even close to accurate. It should have been possible for you to realize this was inaccurate simply from how trivial the problem looked to you in comparison to how much effort is being spent on it.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by nonwifehaver3 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:41PM (#20228442)
I genuinely don't understand how an average Facebook user would encounter videos like those described in the article. Is it some recommender system gone awry?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lazyasciiart on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:45PM (#20229672)
As far as I know, mostly because people post them as comments on public or widely shared items, along with "get free sunglasses" and every other kind of spam. There are tons of these public posts from pages that do news, memes, politics, trolling, regular advertising, whatever.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by p1esk on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:09AM (#20224040)
How about training a classifier to detect and remove potentially bad stuff, then let the users who uploaded it argue that the classifier made a mistake? Only in those cases have human moderators look at it?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Sharlin on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:23AM (#20224151)
They already have classifiers, of course. It's not like the moderators go through everything posted to FB–you'd need millions of people to do that. What the mods actually do, presumably, is review content reported by users.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by p1esk on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:30AM (#20224206)
Then perhaps they need better classifiers? I don’t remember seeing any papers from FB about that, so it does not seem like a priority for them. Or just make the existing bad classifiers more aggressive and shift the moderator’s effort to reviewing good content.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by wrongdonf on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @02:09PM (#20225604)
It says right in the article that the content moderators have full medical benefits
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by cldellow on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @02:56PM (#20226184)
Sorry, yes, I could have expanded on that. You're right, they provide health benefits, in theory.

My experience with the US health care system is that there is a wide gulf in health benefits. When I worked for Microsoft in the late 2000s(as an employee, not as "dash trash", as contractors were called), I paid some very small premium like $10-20/month for a plan with 0 deductible, 0 copay, and pretty much every doctor was in network and covered at 100%. When I dislocated my shoulder, some orthopedic surgeon who used to consult for an NBA team looked at it for me.

I understand that that was considered quite good insurance and that most people in the USA don't get that level of care, much less at that price.

If you read Glassdoor reviews of Cognizant, people complain about the insurance offerings available to employees. https://www.homebaseiowa.gov/sites/homebaseiowa.gov/files/do... looks like it might be what they offered 2 years ago. It doesn't look very good to me. If I was earning $15/hour, I think I'd pretty much buy the cheapest plan and only use it if I was actively bleeding to death.

I'll also link to https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/may/25/facebook-modera... again - it describes how other companies that moderate distressing content approach this. It includes the company paying for psychological treatment, including after the employee leaves the company.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pravda on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:11PM (#20228264)
>I understand that that was considered quite good insurance and that most people in the USA don't get that level of care, much less at that price.

AFAIK, Microsoft 'self-insures', in the sense that they simply pay the medical bills for their employees.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by meerita on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @04:11PM (#20226867)
"If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach."

I bet this can be done with ML and IA instead human power. Yet, FB uses their human cattle to censor conservative voices.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by kartan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @04:16PM (#20226911)
> I bet this can be done with ML and IA instead human power.

IA and ML work in bulk. But they misclassify things that a human easily can discern.

Think Tesla VS Google. Google wants a self-driving car, and that is not working yet. Tesla wants a car that helps you to drive and that is good enough.

It's order of magnitude easier to be almost always correct that to be correct all the time. And you only need one kiddie porn video in your Facebook feed to start to worry about Facebook.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by meerita on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:46PM (#20228471)
It is matter of time this will happen. Even with self-driving cars. Using people to do this is just killing people. Think all the mental effort that has to be done to censor. Humans aren't that perfect and cannot oversee the entire FB daily activity.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by mythrowaway1124 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @04:14PM (#20226892)
Good luck! There's at least a billion dollars in it for you if you figure out how to do this.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by geggam on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:39PM (#20224833)
150k a year in Silicon Valley is similar to 30k a year in the midwest...

Where are the moderators living ?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by kixiQu on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:13PM (#20227886)
This is very much an answered-in-the-article question.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by unicornfinder on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:42PM (#20228083)
Poland
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sandworm101 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:33PM (#20224784)
>> If kiddie porn, gore and animal cruelty flooded the network, it would cease to be a destination visited by people that advertisers will pay to reach.

Or the opposite. People flock to the internet to see this stuff, the material that isn't on TV or even dedicated commercial websites. They get to view it in the privacy of their homes, a secret between them an their trusted "friends" on facebook. Facebook knows that if it really cracks down, if cops bust down doors over this stuff, that people will go elsewhere to share horrible material. So facebook does a poor job of moderation, one just good enough to avoid new regulation but not so good as to actually make a difference.

Advertisers care about eyeballs. They may claim to not want to be associated with X or Y content, but in reality they would rather be in front of an audience than not.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lapnitnelav on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:55PM (#20225469)
Advertisers do care a lot about where their ads are displayed.

There's a whole section of adtech dedicated to brand safety.

I believe it's over the top[1] but it's something marketing folks do care about.

Also the good old pop up ads were created for that reason, aeons ago.

[[1] https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/advertisers-embrace-n...