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Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:37AM (#20223748)
I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. If it's an okay job that isn't really worth the pay, they will have high turnover. High turnover has a cost, maybe it's worth it to them. If the turnover is so high or the job is so undesirable, maybe they'll axe the role. If the role is so important to the business that it can't be axed, but people aren't taking the jobs, they'll have to pay more for it. If they can't pay more for it because it cuts too much into profitability, but it's necessary for the company to operate, then they are no longer a viable company in the market. Or they'll have to innovate or adapt. All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sandworm101 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:42AM (#20223795)
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

That assumes perfect knowledge. As mentioned in the article, these moderators often do not understand what they are getting into until long after they have committed to the job. Once you have quit a previous job, moved, setup your new life, only then do you realize your new "brand consultant" job means watching kittens die all day.

Jobs like this also open persons to realities that we normal keep tucked away deep in our brains. We all know that cops don't investigate most reported crimes, but that doesn't come up very often for us. A facebook moderator sees the crimes, sees the lack of response by the police or anyone else, every minute. Repeatedly, every minute. Nobody can appreciate what this does to ones' mental state until you have been there.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by debacle on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:44AM (#20223822)
Nobody moves for $30k a year.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by skyyler on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:49AM (#20223859)
Are you serious? I know people that have moved for less. Making absolute statements like that doesn't do much for anyone.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sandworm101 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:51AM (#20223887)
Lol. Ever seen a migrant camp? Ever talked to a seasonal farm laborer? People will literally walk across continents for 30k/years.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by jumbopapa on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:58AM (#20223949)
Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by lifeformed on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:40AM (#20224300)
The word is "exploitive". Desperate people will do things because they have to. If I pay a homeless person $20 to humiliate himself, is that a fair transaction, or an exploitation of the asymmetry between our conditions?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:31PM (#20229313)
To the chubby engineer type in 2019, yes. Make the drunk dwarf dance, it’s a free market.

When recession strikes and the gravy train ends, the same folks will be wearing Che Guevara T-shirts crying about unfairness.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ekianjo on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:08PM (#20228602)
There is no obligation for anyone to do anything. Do you assume that there is no free will and we are all like robots driven by short term profits?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pizza234 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @08:01AM (#20231958)
That doesn't answer the parent's question.

If you call 20$, for a person who owes nothing and is probably starving, a "short term profit", you've very likely never experienced how is it to live in poor conditions.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:17AM (#20224099)
It is very possible to "improve" somebody's life and still be abusing your power over them and causing them damage in other ways.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:59PM (#20228184)
> Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?

Being put in prison is an improvement for many individuals in so far as they are guaranteed three square meals and a warm place to lay their head. Would you seriously argue that that's an improvement that is worth the cost to the individual?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by bluntfang on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:40AM (#20224301)
yes.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by zild3d on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @08:29PM (#20228706)
That's really absurd to say, do you realize that $30k/yr is in the top 4% globally?

https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/how-rich-am-i/?...

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by vageli on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:57PM (#20228181)
> Nobody moves for $30k a year.

I personally know people who have moved for half that amount.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:49AM (#20223858)
"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "Both very busy, sir..." "Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

C. Dickens: A Christmas Carol. In Prose. Being a Ghost Story of Christmas, 1843

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:46AM (#20224359)
That literally describes the problem though. There are too many people that can do that job, so there's a surplus supply for it to be valuable to the market. It isn't the responsibilities of the Scrooges and the Facebooks to account for the fact that there isn't enough demand for that position for it to pay well. If people are unable to find work, or are otherwise unable to have enough stability so as to avoid exploitative work, that becomes a societal responsibility. Don't tell Facebook what that job should be worth, or what it should entail, that doesn't make any sense. Just like minimum wage laws, they don't make any sense.

If we're legitimately talking about situations where the balance of power is so unfavorable to the unemployed individual, the solution is to start talking about UBI, not micromanaging very specific roles at very specific companies.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:49AM (#20224391)
https://twitter.com/lil_yenta/status/1140788295175233536

edit: if it was not clear, facebook is in fact part of society (by definition) and their responsibility is proportional to their role in society, no more no less.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:55AM (#20224451)
Yes, and taxes + UBI would represent that proportion. This meme is also only ridiculous because of the $100 figure. What if someone paid you $20k to fuck off. $100k to fuck off?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:32PM (#20225287)
Sorry for the discourse, my polisci past is flaring up but I do in fact explain why I support this (silly) tweet.

There are some kinds of nonviolent behavior we don't allow because we (I guess we is majority of society?) think it's wrong, often around issues of financial exploitation. For example, even if you are mentally sound you can't sell yourself into indentured servitude because that tends to only happen when someone with power exploits someone desperate, often (but not always) due to reasons out of their control.

UBI is basically an artificial wage. Like a lot of things in life, a wage is a negotiation between two entities of vastly different levels of power. As every public company proudly proclaims, the value of what employees do for them is far far less then the value the employees receive.

Why do you think those workers accept this fact? They like getting less value than they generated? It's clearly the result of an exploitative power dynamic - one side has to work or not eat, the other does not.

If you think someone should not have medicine and food dangled over their head in work negations, the answer is workers need to be paid in real value of the capital that they create and that needs to law.

I hope one day our wages are looked back on like no minimum wage, the 6 day 14+ hr work day, child labor, indentured servitude, slavery and etc which were often viewed as normal at their time but now disgusting.

This GIF is mocking the idea of UBI and while for sure a silly meme, has an element of truth IMO.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by closeparen on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:04PM (#20229473)
Why would it need to be law? Since, in your view, capital / management / entrepreneurship contribute nothing of value, workers should have no problem creating successful businesses without them. Particularly if UBI takes care of basic needs during the early stages.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:06AM (#20230061)
Why do feel the need to misrepresent my argument? When did I say that management contributes nothing of value? Of all the arguments I was expecting, this one surprises me as it makes no sense.

Capitalism works on leveraging advantage to pay workers less than the value that they create. Do you have anything to say about that, or are you going to continue to suggest magic discount coupons (UBI) which are worth less than the value a worker creates are something besides slavery with extra steps?

Feel free to scoff/mock me for questioning sacred holy capitalism - when immoral ideals are questioned and no logical answer is available, history tells us emotion and feelings are the standard responses.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by closeparen on Sunday June 23, 2019 @05:50AM (#20254303)
A thing is worth its market-clearing price. Facebook has $15B in revenue and pays $12B in expenses (for the sake or argument, it's all payroll). I claim the workers are getting exactly what they're worth, and the remaining $3B is the value contributed by capital/management. Your claim seems to be that workers created the full $15B in value, and the $3B is being stolen from them. Apologies if you meant something else.

If that's true, Facebook's workforce could quit tomorrow, go build a competitor, and claim the full $15B for themselves. Why don't they do that?

The traditional Communist argument has been that they can't because capital owns the means of production. Factory workers would happily go start their own factory, but they can't afford the machines to fill it. That argument doesn't work too well here: the means of production needed to build Facebook are accessible even to college students. Basically an editor, a scripting language, a web server, and some linux boxes.

Another reasonable argument is that they can't because they need to eat. The time it would take between quitting their jobs at Facebook, Inc. and seeing revenue from Facebook Co-Op would exhaust their savings. That is a problem UBI can solve. It's not that UBI pays what you are worth, but that it removes the urgency that sometimes prevents people from getting their full value in the market.

This idea - that workers create all the value in a company, not just the subset they are paid for - is testable. If you're sure it's true and you want everyone else to believe it, then I think you'd want to run the experiment. UBI could be a way of doing that. Could also do grants that pay living expenses during entrepreneurial activity, or just straight-up house and feed co-op founders without asking for an equity stake.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:32PM (#20229316)
Do you know what a Victorian-era workhouse is?
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by xnyan on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:09AM (#20230072)
If someone suffered more than you, your suffering is invalid - is that your argument? Trying to understand what you are arguing.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:21PM (#20234392)
Workhouses were the UBI of the era. Sort of a combo welfare and prison.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by pfortuny on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:55AM (#20223913)
Thanks for posting this. There are people who do not get it.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Lewton on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:48AM (#20223851)
> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

That is not how the labor market works... At all.

"Worth the pay" is overridden by "absolutely need this money for me or my kids to survive"

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by ralusek on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @11:54AM (#20224434)
I responded to another poster. Desperation (debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States) breaks markets, sure, but that doesn't mean that they suddenly need to be micromanaged. I have long been in favor of UBI in order to remove desperation from the table. I'm not, however, in favor of micromanaging roles at companies and arbitrarily determining what they're worth.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by dragonsky67 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @03:02AM (#20230557)
I've seen desperation in Australia, and our social welfare is head and shoulders above the US. US$30,000 would revolutionise many peoples lives. They would put up with a lot of crap to get that type of money.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by p1necone on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:59PM (#20229157)
> debatable regarding whether or not this is possible in the United States

Wha...? Are you really that far removed from reality?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by 8bitsrule on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:24PM (#20228344)
>> If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it.

Tell that to the people who pick your fruits and veggies.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by social_quotient on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:55PM (#20228525)
I think the same about Uber and the drama with drivers. If the work is so bad, pay so terrible, riders don’t want to pay more, then why hasn’t the market killed itself?

Now we have gov externalities trying to legislate something that shouldn’t have existed?

I’m not saying any of this is write or wrong, I’m just at a loss how people get mad at Uber when the model shouldn’t have made it. Where did the market dynamics go wrong here?

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:38PM (#20229339)
It will, but it will take a few years.

The issue with Uber is they pay $0.70/mi for a task where the cost of fulfilling the task is $1.00. The drivers do it because they can get quick cash with no friction.

You can already see the system breaking down. Uber XLs are getting older and shittier. 2012 Dodge Caravan that picked me up at the airport will be dead in a year. As the situation goes on, someone will die in a fiery wreck by an Uber with no brakes, and it will gather the national attention and kill the company.

Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by manfredo on Thursday June 20, 2019 @10:49AM (#20233445)
I always thought that the car age requirement was dumb. I drove a 2007 Subaru and it still worked perfectly. Another person I knew drove a 1997 BMW that's better than most Ubers I take.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by Spooky23 on Thursday June 20, 2019 @12:20PM (#20234382)
I drive a 2003 Honda. It’s a great car in great shape. If I used in as an urban livery vehicle, it wouldn’t be in great shape.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by michaelt on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:04PM (#20225055)

  I don't understand how this
  isn't a problem perfectly
  solved by the market.
If I offer a homeless person $30 to let me spit on their face and they accept, the market has worked perfectly - but some people will still think I'm an asshole for spitting on that homeless person.
Re:Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions by sonnyblarney on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @07:32PM (#20228388)
Below a certain level, people don't have any leverage at all.

Most people depend on their meagre income quite greatly, it's a bold thing to say someone could just 'quit' their job and spend 9 months looking for another one, especially if they don't have some pretty hard skills.

So in the realm of talent, yes, it would solve itself, which is why devs et. al. often get 'free lunch' among other things.

For most working people, it's much harder.

"All possibilities are fully encapsulated in very simple dynamics."

Yes, of course, but the incredible power asymmetry between FB and not hugely skilled workers is the dynamic that drives all of this.