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Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by adwww on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:09AM (#19876458)
When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left.

I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:48AM (#19877646)
FYI for Americans, it is generally illegal to change your locks and not provide the owner (or agent aka landlord) with a copy.

It's their property, not yours, and depending on state/lease they have the right to have the locks drilled/replaced at YOUR expense because you are not allowed to lock an owner out of their property.

There are only a few US states which have laws permitting tenants from changing locks and not notifying the owner or giving them a copy (CA, NJ are two). Other states permit tenant to change locks (or don't have explicit rules) but require the tenant to give a copy to the owner (like say NY).

The reason why this is tricky is because in the case of an emergency if the owner of the property needs to make emergency repairs, but cannot because you have locked them out, depending on the law and the lease in question, you could be liable for all of the damage to the property since you barred the owner from making repairs. That could be a 5 or 6 digit lawsuit pretty quickly depending on the property, the emergency and if it's multi or single family. (Think burst pipe in a multi-family flooding other tenants.... very expensive very fast)

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by rcthompson on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:29AM (#19878033)
I live in CA, and my lease has a clause specifically prohibiting changing/adding locks to the doors. I wonder if the CA law invalidates this clause. It's not a problem for this lease because my landlord is very hands-off - I've never even met them, only communicated via email. But I'll definitely be paying attention to clauses like this in the future, especially if there's a "smart" lock on the unit.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Gibbon1 on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:58PM (#19883728)
Most leases are just canned boiler plate filled with completely unenforceable clauses.

A lease prohibiting changing the locks would give the landlords insurance agent palpitations.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by hugi on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:21AM (#19877949)
In Iceland, if the owner of a rented apartment would request key access to his tenants apartment, well… That would be considered "batshit crazy". But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sailfast on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:54AM (#19878333)
I think you might be conflating our current executive for the rest of America, which is 50 independent states operating together with a Federal government. Each state has its own way of doing things, and they're all different.

Recent Federal pushes into authoritarian areas, while an indicator that things are moving in that direction, do not make the country as a whole "Authoritarian", let alone VERY authoritarian.

We do tend to lean towards protection for owners of property, rather than renters of property (citation needed? In many states there are STRONG protections for non-owners even those squatting on land that is not theirs) That also severely limits the rights of the government to access the property without cause. That seems... decidedly _not_ authoritarian? But certainly skewed towards ownership.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:32PM (#19879387)
America is not authoritarian so much as "pro-ownership"

The idea that the owner of a building couldn't perform maintenance as necessary is shocking!

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by looperhacks on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:01PM (#19881691)
The thought that someone could enter the place that holds everything I own is more shocking to me. If my landlord wants to enter my flat, he can ask me and I'll let them in - I can't make sure that my landlord doesn't enter my flat.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by thatoneuser on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:06PM (#19882231)
No but tbf you can point a camera at your door and Sue his ass off if he comes in without justification or permission.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by kojeovo on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:28AM (#19886341)
Also an extremely American concept
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by asveikau on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:31PM (#19882882)
I disagree with you. It is absolutely authoritarianism at the root of these issues. (As an American who has been observing this for some time.)

A few hours ago I was summarizing this article to someone in person and concluded with "but this country is very authoritarian", the implication being that the letter and spirit of tennant laws are not widely known, and the more authoritarian cultural norms, biased towards landlords, end up as the de facto rules.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by romwell on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:15AM (#19885025)
"Pro-landlord" is not "pro-ownership", it's the opposite.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:43AM (#19885868)
Oh sweetie, oh no...

The landlord IS the owner.

They are inseparable. You cannot be pro-landlord and anti-owner, or pro-owner and anti-landlord.

"I'm pro-developers but against programmers!"

"I'm anti-programming, but pro-coding!"

Come on now.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by romwell on Monday May 13, 2019 @05:14AM (#19897373)
Oh, come on. Most houseowners aren't landlords (people who own multiple properties and make money by renting it to others).

It is in the interests of landlords that as few people owned property as possible. This being pro-landlord is being anti-ownership, numbers-wise.

I'm pro-owernship of property, I'm anti-getting-rich-off-mere-ownership (that is, quite literally, rent seeking).

Someone who only wants the police to have easy access to guns is anti-gun ownership.

Someone who only wants landlords to own property is anti-property-ownership.

And being pro-landlord is exactly that.

TL;DR: all landlords are owners, most owners aren't landlords. And the rent is too damn high.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by zifnab06 on Friday May 10, 2019 @11:58AM (#19879002)
Where I live (Seattle), a landlord can enter your apartment immediately if there's an emergency (ie something like it's an apartment and the downstairs neighbor reports water leaking from the ceiling), or with two days (48 hours) notice. My current apartment does the second one twice a year for fire alarm testing and, well, that's been it.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by balls187 on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:09PM (#19879130)
One day's written notice if it's to show the unit to a potential tenant.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by thieving_magpie on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:27AM (#19878010)
Feudal and Authoritarian eh? Certainly not being dramatic over differing interpretations of property rights.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by lovich on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:48AM (#19878276)
A:the poster didn't mention feudalism

B: >differing interpretations of property rights The American interpretation is authoritarian. Just because it has a negative connotation doesn't make it untrue. The landlords are renting out a dwelling for someone, and because they are the authority of that land they get to enforce rules on who has access to it. That is authoritarian

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by thieving_magpie on Monday May 20, 2019 @12:15PM (#19961939)
A: Yes they did. They edited the post to remove it after my post.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sailfast on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:58AM (#19878382)
> But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.

That has nothing to do with the property owner but "America" based on my read, but I do appreciate this interpretation of the OP. If that's their meaning, I could see why the word comes up.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by lovich on Friday May 10, 2019 @11:28AM (#19878667)
You know, I think my interpretation was wrong after re-reading, but I dont think I would disagree still. America has a very strong cultural thread of authoritarianism. You see it in places like a cops word being given greater weight in court than a citizens, or how people treat rights as something the government has to give you rather than the government taking rights from you
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by tom_ on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:38PM (#19881495)
Policepeople are citizens.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by lovich on Saturday May 11, 2019 @09:43PM (#19889566)
The law as practiced by the state seems to indicate that they are not the same
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by oh_sigh on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:42PM (#19880874)
What happens if there is a gas or water leak and the landlord needs to let repairmen into your apartment in an emergency?

Do they just wait around until you show up with the key? Smash some windows or kick down the door?

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by pkaye on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:29PM (#19881385)
Iceland is small enough in population that the communities are small and everyone knows each other or has a mutual friend.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by colek42 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:08AM (#19877829)
If you need to get in a house you own in an emergency that could cost 100's of thousands of dollars why wouldn't you just break a window, or call a locksmith? I don't think the tenant would be responsible for these damages unless the incident was caused by their negligence.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:12AM (#19877859)
I'm not a lawyer but in many states these liability claims go through a system which determines the % of liability for each party.

A tenant illegally locking their landlord out and causing delay of several hours for a time-sensitive emergency would almost assuredly get a lot more % liability blame than a tenant who properly gave their landlord a copy of the key and who was able to give access to the plumber immediately.

Hopefully they have enough renters insurance to cover the claim and their insurance company will handle the court side of things when other tenants sue!

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by 0xffff2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:57AM (#19878377)
>A tenant illegally locking their landlord out...

That's not the question at hand at all though. The question is what kind of liability you incur by legally locking your landlord out.

IANAL, but I'd guess that if you change the locks in a state where it's not legal to do so you're totally hosed in terms of liability. I have no idea how liable and to what degree renter's insurance would cover you if you change the locks in a state that guarantees your right to do so.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by secabeen on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:39PM (#19882007)
I don't think there's any state that allows you to change the locks and not give the landlord access.

I've rented an over-the-garage studio in the past, and the landlord came in one time without notice when I was away because the supply line to the toilet burst and there was water dripping from the garage ceiling. That's the sort of emergency we're talking about here, where a landlord needs immediate access, and any delay will cause additional structural damage.

[dead]
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by umanwizard on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:38AM (#19878152)
Can you elaborate on what you’re talking about?
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by vraivroo on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:44AM (#19878225)
It's not legal for landlords to enter rented homes as they please, even in America.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:28PM (#19879348)
This is false. It's up to state law but generally speaking landlords can enter the premises without warning in case of an emergency, and can otherwise enter the premises for nearly any reason (inspection, routine maintenance, showing prospective clients, etc) with a 24 hour notice. Some states may increase that 24 hour notice to 48 hours, but yes a property owner can enter their property.

This is one of those cases where owners have rights too, and renters who want more rights should consider owning.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by jdmichal on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:50AM (#19878294)
It's a common carve out in most states to allow immediate access for "emergency access", which is why everyone in the thread is discussing exactly that.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by whttheuuu on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:22AM (#19877952)
You sir would be incorrect.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by vraivroo on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:45AM (#19878241)
It's also not legal for landlords to enter other people's homes at will simply because they own it.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:33PM (#19879402)
With a 24 hour notice (or 48), yes it is legal. They can post notice and come by merely to inspect the state of the property.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by HEHENE on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:03PM (#19881700)
This is not true in California. I had a landlord who wanted to enter all apartments to inspect for evidence of pets (someone had seen a cat inside the building) and I told them exactly where they could shove it.

(Paraphrased from CA Civ Code 1954)

A landlord may enter the dwelling unit only in the following cases:

- In case of emergency.

- To make necessary or agreed repairs, exhibit the property, or perform move in/out inspections.

- When the tenant has abandoned or surrendered the premises.

- Pursuant to court order.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by criley2 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:44AM (#19885877)
If I were your landlord and you refused, I would sue for violating a no-pets clause in the lease to get a court order to allow the inspection. Or perhaps just initiate eviction proceedings for the lease violation.

It is what it is.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:41AM (#19876833)
I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords.

Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without entering the property, because I had changed the locks. The property was left immaculate. I took photos to cover my arse. Edit: to note I completely ripped out the overgrown garden in that time and cleaned it up to the point it was workable and decorated half the place so I added value to his property. He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money.

Retribution was simple. He didn't have a valid address on the tenancy contract. When he asked where to return the keys to, he sent me an SMS to just put them through the letter box. So I did. I put the keys inside a zip lock bag and used an 8 foot bamboo stick to poke them through the letterbox half way down the hall, double locked the security door from the outside and chucked the keys for the actual barrels down the drain in the street. My wife decided to add insult to this injury by spreading marmite all around the inside of the letter box.

The next morning I woke up to about 20 missed calls and 3 voice mails calling me all sorts of names and threatening to kill me and was going to sue me for new locks and a new shirt.

I went and bought another pay as you go SIM and never heard a thing.

Edit: just looked the guy up. He's still going. If you rent in Nottingham, keep an eye out for a cunt who turns up on a motorbike. Ask for a passport or driving license for ID from direct rent landlords, not just business correspondence.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Waterluvian on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:07AM (#19876958)
"My wife decided to add insult to this injury by spreading marmite all around the inside of the letter box."

This was the part where you lost my support. That's a bit too petty.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:13AM (#19876984)
We changed the locks originally because we caught him in the place doing an inspection unannounced. All our clothes had been gone through and the computer turned on. Funny sounding inspection.

The marmite was deserved. If you’re going to make someone’s life miserable and insecure for six months then we’re going to roll out the red carpet on pettiness.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:34AM (#19877522)
Nothing is gained by being an asshole to an asshole. All you've done is provided him with documentable proof for how terrible and vindictive he thinks you are. It doesn't matter if every other claim he's made about you was a lie.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:39AM (#19877560)
Sometimes it is not about personal gain but making sure that any unfair gains are worthless.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:52AM (#19877674)
How does smearing marmite make the unfair gain worthless? It might make you feel smug for a few hours, but if your enemy is vindictive, it could be used against you.

The best move is to avoid playing the game.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:00AM (#19877743)
I just asked my other half how she was feeling about it after 16 years and she laughed so clearly petty justice has a lasting effect.

I think the person in question would be in vastly larger amounts of trouble for even raising his head above the cesspool he floated in for a moment. It would be like a chase from the Benny Hill show with local housing enforcement, HMRC, the police and a trail of angry and abused tenants.

The best move is making the game worthless so there are no winners. Shit on the board. It's a stalemate then.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by vraivroo on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:47AM (#19878262)
That is not just "an asshole". That is criminal.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by ubercow13 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:50AM (#19877663)
It probably felt good though!
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:55AM (#19877700)
If you prioritise the short term over the long term, then yes.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by ubercow13 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:09AM (#19877840)
I think the sibling comment demonstrates that it is was long term benefit.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:14AM (#19877874)
Only a long term benefit in hindsight. Could have gone any number of ways.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:25AM (#19877982)
Unlikely. There was some intelligence behind it. He was aware the locks had been changed as I explained his in an SMS so I did what he asked explicitly. Secondly I could apologise for the mistake of leaving the wrong keys inside the property. As for the marmite, some kid did a prank! Ooops. Based on the police's previous attitude, would they likely come out for a bit of marmite in a letterbox.

The put the keys through the letterbox thing was actually a masterpiece of idiocy on his part which I refrained from mentioning to him.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by JadeNB on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:24PM (#19880048)
> Only a long term benefit in hindsight. Could have gone any number of ways.

Isn't every long-term benefit long-term only in hindsight?

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by stale2002 on Friday May 10, 2019 @01:23PM (#19880038)
Well it seemed like there were zero long term consequences. So it worked out.
[dead]
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:50AM (#19877658)
I think you need to read my post again, I'm not talking about real ethics or so-called Christian ethics. I'm talking about doing what's in your selfish best interest. Put simply, don't do things that can be used against you by your enemy.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by dvtrn on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:36PM (#19879440)
Maybe it's my hyper-legal American sentiments (pardon the joke at the expense of America's litigious culture, if that's not your particular breed of sardonic humor), but I'm in full agreement here and a little surprised at some of the comments waving this off as anything other than something that would result in justifiable legal-reprisal, if the landlord really wanted to mess with people.

But again, that's probably (very most likely) just the result of me existing in a hyper-litigious culture where In pari delicto is very much a thing.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by n4r9 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:48AM (#19878265)
Right, but now he's telling his mates about how his absolute arsehole of a tenant spread marmite on his letterbox for no reason whatsoever. He still has a story, except this one just makes tenants look evil.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by heavenlyblue on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:38PM (#19879473)
Yeah, but let’s be honest - if he does mention the deposit though - his mates will quickly understand why the marmite ended in his letterbox.

So in the end we’re not giving any ideas to other people that their actions will have no repercussions.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Twirrim on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:20AM (#19877423)
Yeah, but it's a complete waste of Marmite. It ought to be illegal to waste such a heavenly thing as marmite like that.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:30AM (#19877487)
We'll agree to disagree on that. After 22 years of putting up with marmite in the house I still don't like it ;)
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Twirrim on Sunday May 12, 2019 @06:48PM (#19895101)
I'm a Brit who has been living in the US for over a decade now. Every now and then I try to introduce American friends and co-workers to the delights of Marmite, but to no avail. Luckily for me, it's relatively easy and affordable to purchase Marmite via Amazon.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by maxkwallace on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:26PM (#19882403)
To anyone reading this: if this happens to you, please talk to a lawyer. Please do something to protect future tenants, get the landlord's info online. Don't seek retribution just for yourself.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:04AM (#19885449)
(if you want to burn all your money on a lawyer that is)

It's honestly best to cut your losses and walk away.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by ascagnel_ on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:08AM (#19877828)
> We changed the locks originally because we caught him in the place doing an inspection unannounced. All our clothes had been gone through and the computer turned on. Funny sounding inspection.

That may be a criminal act in your jurisdiction. My local laws allow the landlord access, but the landlord needs to provide 48h notice of the inspection (with a list of specific exceptions for emergency work, mostly around plumbing and electrical work) and cannot bar the tenant from being present during the inspection.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by TomMarius on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:17AM (#19877902)
Entirely legal in EU, btw
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by ginko on Friday May 10, 2019 @11:03AM (#19878446)
That's not true. In Austria at least, a landlord certainly can't enter a rented-out apartment unannounced.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by TomMarius on Saturday May 11, 2019 @02:08AM (#19884835)
I replied to a wrong comment and didn't notice. What I meant is that changing locks is entirely legal in EU.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by ubercow13 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:24AM (#19877972)
That's..terrifying.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by jadyoyster on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:59PM (#19879741)
I've never heard of an EU country where it would be legal to enter without ample warning time.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by m_t on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:00PM (#19881096)
And also completely false!
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by TomMarius on Saturday May 11, 2019 @02:09AM (#19884838)
Yes, I replied to wrong comment, sorry. I meant that changing locks is entirely legal.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by henryaj on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:12AM (#19877861)
The landlord stole £600 off this guy... but the Marmite thing is too much somehow?
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by teddyh on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:14PM (#19881780)
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by arethuza on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:14AM (#19877379)
I experienced stuff like that from a couple of landlords while I was a student - one of the reasons I was quite happy to buy my first flat at 23 (mind you - that was a long time ago).

Edit: I almost attacked one landlord when I found someone rummaging in a cupboard at night! Landlord was quite indignant when we pointed out he couldn't come and go as he pleased.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:29AM (#19877477)
Yeah that's roughly what happened here. Although I knew he was likely in there because he parked his motorbike outside.

He was actually in my 2 year old daughter's bedroom when I opened the door. I heard him leave it and come down the stairs.

Small argument ensued and he sent me an SMS right there on his phone saying that he was coming to do an inspection on date X which was that day. Then said "oh sorry must have been delayed" with a smirk on his face, got back on his motorbike and rode off.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by arethuza on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:54AM (#19877692)
"He was actually in my 2 year old daughter's bedroom"

I think I would have phoned the police at that point!

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:01AM (#19877757)
I did. See one of my other comments.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by PyroLagus on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:29PM (#19881927)
That's probably a great way to get shot, especially in the US. Not only is sneaking into a tenants place (at night of all times) an asshole move, likely illegal, and a clear abuse of power, but it's also such an incredibly stupid thing to do if you value your life.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by fj39dkf on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:31AM (#19877070)
He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money.

Something about your comment makes me think there's more to this story.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:37AM (#19877120)
Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us.

The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff.

He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved.

Who’s the bad one? Hmm

Edit: also the place we had after that I rented for 11 years with no problems direct from landlord and they were excellent and we were excellent back.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by levosmetalo on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:14AM (#19877378)
> Who’s the bad one? Hmm

And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by being asshole to him, without doing the right thing and reporting him to whatever authority in UK is responsible for this.

Because of that, both of you are bad, though he is a bit worse.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by dang on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:29PM (#19879359)
Please don't scold people like this on HN. Threads here are for good conversation, and scolding makes conversation bad.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:25AM (#19877453)
Actually it's not quite that easy. If you think anyone even gives a crap about this sort of stuff then you're mistaken. Even today.

Firstly, I spoke to the police and they said they couldn't do anything because I likely couldn't prove he was snooping and couldn't prove that it wasn't against the terms and it wouldn't be worthy of their time investigating it and it was probably a civil or contractual issue. "go see a solicitor". Which I couldn't afford.

Secondly, local housing officer was contacted and I was asked to attend the local council about it and I sat there for 4 hours and was told to go home because they had run out of time. I got a letter apologising and attempts to get a second appointment were fruitless.

This was option three.

This was one of the points in my life I realised there is no magical state run safety blanket who will protect you from dickheads.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by henryaj on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:15AM (#19877886)
Sounds familiar. I have some friends suing their old landlord for essentially walking off with their entire deposit (several thousands of £). They moved out of that place more than a year ago - the case is still working its way through the courts. Nothing is simple.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by soulofmischief on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:32AM (#19878075)
Oh screw that. Come into my home when I'm not there, and enter my 2 year old daughter's room? If the police don't see that as a crime, it's vigilante time. The chances your landlord wasn't attempting some creepy perverted shit is zero to none.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by mAEStro-paNDa on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:24AM (#19877442)
Have you considered some of the landlord's actions might not have been illegal? Anyone from the UK that can chime in on this? Is there an authority responsible for this?
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by iam-TJ on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:25AM (#19877989)
Here's a clause from a U.K. (England and Wales) lease agreement that is pretty standard:

35. Landlord's Covenant for Quiet Enjoyment

The Landlord covenants with the Tenant, that, so long as the Tenant pays the rents reserved by and complies with the obligations of this lease, the Tenant shall have quiet enjoyment of the Property without any interruption by the Landlord or any person claiming under the Landlord except as otherwise permitted by this lease.

There are clauses covering emergency entry for repairs (e.g. burst water pipes, leaking gas) in short-term rental agreements but - as others have said - they require "reasonable" notice in almost all cases aside from dire emergency, and the tenant can still refuse entry.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by addicted on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:41AM (#19877572)
I don’t know abounthe UK but I’m pretty sure I’ve had a lease agreement when I was a student that gave the landlord the right to enter at Will.

It could still have been illegal, but it was definitely in the lease.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:45AM (#19877603)
It's not quite that straightforward here in the UK. Well it is but the other way. The landlord has no right to enter a property outright. The property is for exclusive enjoyment by the tenant according to law. They can give 24 hours' notice and enter to do repairs etc but you can refuse that outright and they have no rights beyond that without taking you to court.

If they turn up unannounced this is actually harassment under UK law.

We had some rather unpleasant slum landlords between the 1950s and 1970s which caused a few laws to be introduced. Unfortunately the nature of being a landlord seems to attract certain people who find new and creative ways to be dicks. Not the majority of landlords I will say who are mostly pretty good, but enough to cause problems.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by yrro on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:14PM (#19879177)
> If they turn up unannounced this is actually harassment under UK law.

They probably have to do this repeatedly to meet the threshold for harassment.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by js2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:59AM (#19877727)
You might be interested in the not very good movie "Pacific Heights" about a psychopathic tenant, if you want to see a fictional telling of how bad it can get for a landlord.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:03AM (#19877776)
I certainly understand how bad it can get for landlords. I'm not excusing any bad tenants here for sure. I will at least read the synopsis for that film :)
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by js2 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:20AM (#19877927)
If you ever get stuck with another terrible landlord, it might even give you some ideas. :)
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:21AM (#19877942)
Hahaha that's never a good thing :)
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by quickben on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:55AM (#19877698)
Doesn't have to be. That landlord move was so popular here in Toronto, that they outlawed it.

For example, $75k in fines:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/02/24/landlord-fined-7...

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:04AM (#19877788)
Totally agree. Good to hear this level of enforcement is taking place.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by mAEStro-paNDa on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:37AM (#19877118)
Why? I agree some of the actions are taking it too far, but this part is not that far-fetched. It happens.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by setquk on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:47AM (#19877195)
I thought I went too far for a few years to be honest. Now I realise that no protection whatsoever was afforded to any private tenants back then other than taking the landlord to court which was expensive, time consuming, resulted in unpaid days off work and generally a waste of time. The moral high ground doesn't necessarily drive the point home either.

Now we have a deposit scheme in the UK which stops landlords doing this because the deposit is held in trust. The landlord has to prove it. Therefore there's escrow and a third party involved. Not being in this scheme is illegal and results in fines that go directly to the tenant as well.

This action is not necessary now, but changing the locks still is because it's your personal space and security and you genuinely don't know who has access to that unless you do it. Could even be the previous tenants with key copies.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by DanBC on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:14PM (#19880613)
There are two types of eviction in England: section 8 (non-payment of rent) and section 21 (no blame).

There are strict protections around section 21 during the "fixed term" (normally 6 months to a year), but after that it's pretty easy to get tenants out even if they've done nothing wrong, and it's common to evict tenants, re-paint, then re-let the property at a big markup.

If you're a tenant in England it's probably a good idea to talk to the landlord each year about a small rent increase.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by lqet on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:19AM (#19876501)
Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0]

I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

[0] as others have mentioned below, this does not seem to be enforceable, even if it is part of the contract, and you are free to change locks after moving in. You only have to give the landlord access to the apartment in case of emergency, and he may enter forcefully if you don't do that (or if you are not present / have changed locks).

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by schlowmo on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:00AM (#19876666)
> "At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations."

I am not a lawyer but I know that this is a common misunderstanding in Germany. The landlord is not allowed to keep a key to the apartment he rented out, unless you're explicitly consent to it.[0]

You have to grant him access in case of an emergency and if you don't do that, forced entry may be legal (like in the case of a pipe burst).

[0] https://www.mieterbund.de/index.php?id=566

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by djsumdog on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:51AM (#19877664)
It's most likely built into all standard landlord agreements. I can't imagine a landlord not wanting to have keys a unit they rent out.

In most US states, landlords are required to give 24 hour notice prior to entering a unit (unless it's a maintenance emergency like a broken water pipe).

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by cyborgx7 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:31AM (#19878062)
If it is in the landlord agreement in Germany, that part of the agreement is void. Such a thing is against German law.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by cyborgx7 on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:30AM (#19878047)
That's good to learn! I think I might replace the lock this weekend.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by cr1895 on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:45AM (#19876613)
My rental contract in the Netherlands forbids it, but at one time I discussed it with a lawyer and it's not an enforceable clause. Eventually I had to get the lock replaced and I have no intention of giving the property company a key.

>the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

The fire department/emergency services would absolutely be allowed to (force) enter...why should the landlord be the savior? Perhaps it's different in Germany.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by skrause on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:07AM (#19876690)
> Perhaps it's different in Germany.

It's not.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by _delirium on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:35AM (#19876572)
It's legal in the UK for a tenant to change the locks, and there's also no law requiring them to provide the landlord a copy of the key. You do have to allow the landlord in for certain reasons (like maintenance) with advance notice, but you can do that by just being home and letting them in yourself. However, the letting contract might prohibit it, and I think commonly does. It's not a right of the tenant to be able to change the locks, so the contract can restrict it, but it's allowed by default if the contract doesn't say anything.

Details: https://www.urban.co.uk/landlord-university/questions-and-an...

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjtgraham on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:57AM (#19876653)
Tenants have common law "exclusive possession" and "right to quiet enjoyment" in a UK residential AST. Landlord's presence must be with tenant's consent, it is trespass and possibly an "unlawful eviction" offence otherwise. Landlord don't even have a right of entry to comply with their own statutory requirements, e.g. gas safety check. The only exception is in an "emergency", e.g. a fire.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by cr1895 on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:10AM (#19876706)
>"right to quiet enjoyment"

Ah, yeah I encountered the same in Netherlands. A while back the law changed and some legal liability shifted towards landlords if their tenants were found to be growing cannabis. So my property management company decided that they would do random, unannounced inspections of all their tenants four times per year. Plainly contrary to the authorized, agreed-upon reasons for visits and counter to my right not to be bothered. Cue some unknown to me guy knocking on the door asking to look around. Nope! After I argued with the company a few times and refused them entry they finally stopped pestering me. And I'm not growing cannabis...but neither am I a freshman in a college dorm!

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by robaato on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:33AM (#19877512)
From a recent tenancy agreement I've seen:

g) Permit the Landlord or the Landlord's agents on reasonable notice and at reasonable hours to enter the premises to view the state and condition thereof and if necessary to carry out repairs, alterations or other works.

s) Not to change or install any locks on any doors or windows of the premises or to make duplicate keys thereto and to return all such keys to the Landlord or the Landlord's agents at the end of the tenancy.

v) To permit the Landlord or the Landlord's agents during the last two months of the tenancy to enter the premises at reasonable hours during the day time together with any prospective tenants or purchasers to view the premises.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sjwright on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:44AM (#19877596)
The first and second terms are unpalatable but could be tolerated under limited circumstances. I would look at concealing a remote-monitored security camera by the front door to catch and alert any unwelcome visitors.

But that third term is a deal-breaker. Eight weeks of living in an unsafe, insecure home with no privacy? I'm not paying rent for that.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by hmhhcycbtsc557 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:55AM (#19877703)
My rental contract (AU) has those three clauses parent poster presents, verbatim. It's sickening. I actually have a mind to go and find out from a lawyer if they're enforceable.

I'm not Australian, but my sense is that tenants are viewed by the law as something between children and moral degenerates.

EDIT: and landlords are permitted to (and do) "inspect the property for damage" on a six monthly basis. At which point they tell you the day before they'll be poking around in your home. I don't know why we stand for it, frankly.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by adwww on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:47AM (#19878264)
Doesn't stop you leaving laundry, tools, bike parts, raw meat, or whatever else you think might put prospective tennants off all over the apartment.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by djsumdog on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:53AM (#19877685)
That third one is pretty common in many countries. In New Zealand one of my letting agreements allowed them to show the unit a month prior to moving out.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by fwip on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:33AM (#19878089)
About six years ago I had to deal with this. The guy showing our place kept forgetting to lock our door afterwards - one time even leaving it ajar.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by flarg on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:35AM (#19877096)
I've done this and you are correct. Decent landlords won't mind if you request permission to change the locks.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by skrause on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:05AM (#19876685)
> At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations.

This is completely wrong. In Germany the apartment owner is not even allowed to keep a copy of the key unless you voluntarily give them one. I live in Germany and I also changed the lock the day I moved in and the landlord is not allow to forbid me from doing that.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by sstephant on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:30PM (#19879363)
Same in France. The owner has to relinquish all its means to access the appartement to the tenant.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Faaak on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:54AM (#19876644)
If there's an emergency, you kick the door.

If it's not an emergency, then you don't need to enter the apartment without the tenant.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by djsumdog on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:54AM (#19877693)
What about a broken waterpipe? That's the most common emergency where a landlord or maintenance staff needs access to prevent building damage.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by icebraining on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:23AM (#19876754)
Who pays for the broken door?
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by thrower123 on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:28AM (#19876773)
If it is really an emergency (fire, heat failure, plumbing emergency, etc), not kicking down the door will cost far more than the $200 that a new door costs.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by icebraining on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:42PM (#19879523)
Apparently everyone decided I was proposing letting it all burn down. I was only wondering if, by letting the landlord have a key who could be used in an emergency, the tenants where reducing the risk of being on the hook for those extra $200. Of course the emergency must be dealt with.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by doikor on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:06AM (#19877318)
Insurance company.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by cr1895 on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:27AM (#19876767)
The apartment owner, or perhaps their insurance.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Sendotsh on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:34AM (#19876565)
In Australia you’re legally allowed to change the locks on your rental but you’re required to give a copy of the new keys to your Agent within x hours (my contract says 24hrs).

We do it for all properties and highly recommend it, as we’ve had an ex-contractor (had worked on renovations) walk into our rental a week after we moved in, letting himself in with his keys thinking no one had moved in yet. Wifey was on the couch and let out a hell of a yell, and we chased him out before calling the Police.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by jfk13 on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:38AM (#19876581)
In my experience (UK), a typical rental agreement will require you to inform the landlord/agent and provide them with a key, or even get their prior consent to make the change. (I'm not sure if there's actual law on the subject or if it's purely down to the terms of the contract.)
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by jon-wood on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:20AM (#19876743)
UK rentals typically require prior approval for any sort of modification made to the home - I've had contracts where they considered hanging a picture to be a modification, so I'm pretty sure changing the locks would come under that clause.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by alphager on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:47AM (#19876622)
It is completely legal to change the locks as a tenant in Germany: https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Darf-der-Mieter-das-Tuerschloss...
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by _Codemonkeyism on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:13AM (#19876719)
A little bit of googling tells me that in Germany you are allowed to change the lock [1]. Never thought of that, will do it probably next time I move.

[1] https://www.advocard.de/streitlotse/mieten-und-wohnen/schlos...

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by Loic on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:00AM (#19876664)
The owner is allowed to keep a key only if the tenant is allowing him. You can change all the locks as tenant if you do not allow him and if you are not sure he is not keeping a key. If your contract stipulates that you must leave the owner a key, you can still change the lock, the clause in the contract is by law not valid.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by gpm on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:24AM (#19877445)
In Ontario, it's explicitly illegal. One of the very few parts of the law here that isn't tenant friendly.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by jethro_tell on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:56AM (#19876892)
Wouldn't say fire, they're going to break the door down anyway, but something like a pipe burst or sewer backup, is also time sensitive but not life threatening and in that situation, you might be liable.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by tinus_hn on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:27AM (#19876768)
Then you aren’t allowed to use a door latch. A rule an owner is allowed to enter doesn’t mean you have to make it possible, just that you can’t complain if he succeeds in entering.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by pjc50 on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:11AM (#19876466)
Good idea - I did this when I bought my house but didn't bother on rental properties. "Euro Cylinder" locks are standardised and really easy to change.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by vonuebelgarten on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:33AM (#19876797)
This is also standard practice here in Brazil.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by balabaster on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:02AM (#19877770)
It never occurred to me not to change the locks. The minute I start paying rent, I always saw it as my home.

Upon viewing the place, I make explicitly clear that I expect it to be cleaned and anything that's broken shall be fixed prior to my taking possession and that I will consider the contract null and void if it's not. I ensure this is written into the contract so that if it's not taken care of, the contract is null and void the moment possession is granted.

I ensure that the landlord understands that I expect to be allowed to treat this as my home and that I will decorate to my taste for the duration of my occupation of the property.

The locks get changed the day I move in, pictures are taken to record the state of repair before furniture is moved in. I write up an inspection report with copies of the pictures attached and send it to the landlord.

I decorate as I see fit.

When I leave, I put the house back to the same state or better than it was when I arrived. If I have had to replace any appliances that didn't meet my requirements, I put the original appliances back and take mine with me. The place is left as I would expect it to be when I took possession, which is immaculate.

I take pictures as evidence of the cleanliness of the property and hand copies of these with my keys to the landlord the day I move out. This is mostly as a "You know I took pictures of everything when I moved in, and now I've taken pictures of everything as I'm moving out so don't try anything shady or you will be caught in a lie."

If the landlord wishes to complete an inspection during my stay, they can give me the legally required amount of notice so I can be home to let them in and see them out.

In the 25 years I've been renting properties, I have had only 2 landlords on short leases give me any kind of problems. I've never had a security deposit withheld. I've never been evicted and barring these 2 particular landlords, who failed to meet their obligations as landlords - i.e. fix broken water heaters and burst pipes etc. which I had to foot out of my own pocket and then go through arbitration to recover the costs, I've had nothing but cordial relationships with every landlord I've ever had.

I know there's a shit ton of bad landlords out there and that my experience has largely been one of luck given that I rented student digs too and there's plenty of landlords that prey on students who don't know any better; but it horrifies me how many people allow landlords to treat them with anything less than complete respect. It's your home, you're paying for it. They may own the deed. They may pay the mortgage company. They may be responsible for the upkeep. But it's your home. You should ensure the lease/contract allows room for you to treat it as such before you agree to sign it.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by nate_meurer on Saturday May 11, 2019 @12:04AM (#19884479)
I don't how it works in Canada, but in the U.S., if the lease becomes "null and void", whatever that means, then you lose the contracted right of possession. If you don't leave immediately, you're in material breach, and the landlord will start eviction.

I've had applicants who insist on similar changes, and I'll decline their application every time. It sounds like you're a good guest, but without knowing anything more about someone, I take such behaviour as a big red flag.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by balabaster on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:03AM (#19899330)
Agreed, if the contract is null and void, then the right to possession is negated. As such, I would expect the return of my deposit, which I usually pay upon signing the contract. I usually negotiate to pay the first month's rent upon acceptance of the property after the move-in inspection, at which point I'm satisfied to accept tenancy. If the contract becomes null and void after this time, I fully expect to be required to vacate the premises in a timely manner.

If a landlord decided to decline me for those requests, I would equally see that as a giant red flag and would likely consider that I'd dodged a bullet.

I'm a great guest. I treat the home I live in - including the landlord and neighbours with the greatest of respect. If the landlord is unwilling to accommodate such changes to the contract, then I would assume that they're unlikely to treat me with the respect I would afford them. All business relationships are a two way street. If that affordance is not forthcoming, I wouldn't consider that any kind of arrangement I wish to pursue or maintain.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by whttheuuu on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:23AM (#19877963)
Uhm yeah, this is illegal in most states. And in case of emergency (fire, flood, gas/water leak, etc.) where a landlord is unable to get in - guess who's going to pay for damages?
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by balabaster on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:37AM (#19878135)
If this happened in a property you owned, the fire department would kick down the door anyway. This is no different. Why would a landlord even know your property is on fire before the fire department kicked the door down? Emergency services would be there long before the landlord even knew anything was amiss... and there's a high statistical probability that it was me that called emergency services in the first place and the door would be unlocked. I'm not calling my landlord first, shit needs to be dealt with now, not when the landlord finally checks their voicemail.

So this argument makes little sense to me.

And as another commenter notes - that's what renter's insurance is for.

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by RHSeeger on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:39AM (#19878162)
> And in case of emergency (fire, flood, gas/water leak, etc.) where a landlord is unable to get in - guess who's going to pay for damages?

Renter's insurance?

Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by simonebrunozzi on Friday May 10, 2019 @10:44AM (#19878221)
Smart, and this should be the default.
Re:Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from ... by boobsbr on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:18AM (#19877410)
Standard in Brazil.