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Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by GlenTheMachine on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:18PM (#18562993)
This probably won't be popular, but what the hell.

I feel like, if you strip away the outward trappings and dogma, this is what religion is good for. Not in a "believe in Jesus" or "trust in God" kind of way, but in a "how to orient your life" kind of way. Which is to say, the actually useful portion of religion generally teaches that your best life is probably not focused on you. It isn't about finding yourself, or being true to yourself, or really thinking about yourself at all. It's in being of benefit to the human beings around you. And in serving those around you, you become something that is worth being.

It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, there are poor people around you. There are parentless children, drug addicts, parks that need cleaning, animal shelters that need dog walkers. You can always do something meaningful with your life. Try that, and see what kind of relationships you make. Look at and actually see a homeless person. See how that makes you feel. See if your worrying about your own future maybe drops away, or gets morphed into something you can do something with. See what kinds of other people you run into that way. Focus on, if not bringing joy to other people, then at least making their lives better. See if that doesn't - as a pure byproduct - change your own self-worth. Or maybe just make you less focused on it.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by rolleiflex on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:52PM (#18563883)
I think we in the west ended up replacing religion with, not an absence of it, but with a religion of the Self — where you are the god, or the only one that matters anyway.

That obviously doesn’t mean a sincere belief in one’s own omniscience, more that the the aura of ‘importance’ bestowed upon things naturally emanate from the centre of the Universe, which is you.

Mind that humans are already pretty much hardwired to do this. Removing external factors of pressure and adding validation in the form of the mass market gospel of ‘find yourself’ just made this a lot more visible.

Funny enough, the people who end up going down to the deep end of this road of finding yourself often find that there is nothing to find, since all your life, you’ve spent it looking for yourself and you never added anything to it. It’s an empty box. You’re the pot at the end of the rainbow that you never thought you needed to put gold into.

From there, people usually split to a few branches. The more transcendentalist amongst us call it the Buddha, the folks with a more philosophical bent call it existential nausea.

The more practical, most of us, go ‘oh.’ and they move on with their lives. Which is probably the most healthy way, anyway.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by wefarrell on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:27PM (#18564729)
I'd go a step further and say that we've replaced traditional religion with consumption, or more specifically consumerism. Most of the art produced in antiquity existed within the framework of religion, now it's advertising.

I think it's important to subscribe to some kind of overall framework with a worldview and community. We're hard wired for it and if you don't choose it, then consumerism will fill that vacuum and you will find yourself ensnared in mindless consumption.

I have an 80 year old aunt who is a nun who I consider to be one of the wisest people I know. I'm not religious and I have frank and honest discussions with her about religion and philosophy, completely free from judgement. Once we were sharing a drink at a family event and I asked her something to the extent of "at what point did you find yourself?". She replied that she's still finding herself will continue as long as she's alive.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by mar77i on Thursday November 29, 2018 @07:20PM (#18565496)
>>you are the god, or the only one that matters anyway.

> you will find yourself ensnared in mindless consumption.

Funny how you're both following the religion thing only on the surface. Take a bite, already! Western culture is based on a specific religion whose philosophy hinges around the realization of slave morality as the superior state of being. Following a school of fish is all you get from consumerism, but all those fishes take away things. The reason why it's not going to fill you up is exactly that there's no interest between you and the next fish, and you weren't going to give them anything, anyway. The only thing you effectively give is a few cents towards blood, sweat and tears in some Asian factory or sweatshop. And you're feeling that somewhere, deep down there.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by sizzle on Thursday November 29, 2018 @08:14PM (#18565769)
"That obviously doesn’t mean a sincere belief in one’s own omniscience, more that the the aura of ‘importance’ bestowed upon things naturally emanate from the centre of the Universe, which is you.

Mind that humans are already pretty much hardwired to do this."

I had trouble parsing your perspective as it was written in a unique way. I don't think humans are hardwired for this, can you back up that claim?

If you study evolutionary biology, there is a wealth of information and studies suggesting we are reciprocally altruistic and help others if they have helped us previously or we think they might help us in the future i.e. reciprocal altruism.

From a innate neuroscientific perspective, mirror neurons respond to actions that we observe in others which, if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), suggests several counterpoints to people in the west believing they are the "only one that matters" when our brains are constantly lighting up by noticing the actions of others which we are inclined to notice and react to (e.g. help those in need, whether family, friends, relatives, or stranger on the street).

This is a fascinating subject, hope others who know more about Neuroscience can chime in, I only minored in it in undergrad. Also, fusiform face area might be worthy of exploring w.r.t. noticing other and what this implies for the notion of human altruism.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by randomsearch on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:08PM (#18564584)
The West replaced God not with the self, but with shopping.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:10PM (#18564606)
That and "Science." "Scientists" (catch-all term nobody seems to have a problem using with increasing frequency) are the new priest class.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Meekro on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:30PM (#18564751)
There's definitely something to this. We HN readers see the occasional article about the crisis of reproducibility in science, which leads to some thoughtful discussion about the trustworthiness of the phrase "studies have shown," especially when it conflicts with one's own common sense.

Sadly, this reflection is quickly forgotten.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by phs318u on Thursday November 29, 2018 @06:46PM (#18565294)
I think that the overwhelming evidence of reality of modern existence - the fact that we don't live neolithic lives with neolithic lifespans - is sufficient proof that science has been overwhelmingly constructive and reflective of how the universe works.

Yes, there are issues, the incentivisation around publication etc makes it easy to game the system. However, to extrapolate this to a blanket attitude of distrusting science, "especially when it conflicts with one's own common sense", is incredibly dangerous because it's partly what has made large numbers of us so susceptible to overt manipulation.

"Common sense" is no such thing, and much of proven science could be construed as contradicting common sense. The light-speed limit, quantum spookiness, spacetime curvature, biological evolution - all were once considered contrary to "common sense" - mainly because "common sense" is ultimately derived from the extremely narrow and limited range of human experiences.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Thursday November 29, 2018 @07:49PM (#18565654)
A post showed up on my twitter timeline the other day saying something to the effect of, "hey, these guys just landed a thing on a tiny thing in space, so hey, maybe listen to them about climate change, you idiots," completely devoid of sarcasm. A friend of mine had retweeted it. This is how many, if not most, people think these days; instead of looking to people wearing vestments and robes for guidance, they look to people they've never met who they assume probably wear white lab coats while "doing" their "science"—which naturally encompasses all scientific fields because all "scientists" are of course good at doing ALL the "science." (Sure, if you press them, they'll admit that there's different fields of science and not all "scientists" literally know it all... but that doesn't stop that from being the mental shortcut they make whenever they read a headline about whatever "Science" is saying today.) Instead of looking to Scripture, they look to headlines declaring "science" having been "settled" on the matter. We've moved away from religion as a people, yet all it seems to have done is instilled a false sense of rationality in everyone.

It's not about trusting or distrusting "science," it's about trusting or distrusting people who put too much trust into "science," on the principle of it being "science" that "scientists" have determined is truth. I'm not saying let's all go full Amish (or Kaczynski) and live off the land, I write code for a living. I'm just saying that it's easy to fall into the "religion is an old and outdated concept, only idiots and traditionalist fools would believe in such a thing, yet putting complete faith in anything said by anyone who calls themselves a 'scientist' that gets sufficient attention, that's completely totally different, Because Science" trap.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by saeranv on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:01PM (#18565976)
Belief in science is nothing like belief in religion. The former, ultimately, is a belief, based on evidence, in the scientific method (empirically acquiring knowledge).

So yes, I would argue that even if someone doesn't understand all the scientific principles behind climate change, they can still reasonably trust "science" and "scientists", since that work is built on top of empirically-backed, peer-evaluated research. In fact, this is necessary since the expertise required to have a critical opinion of the vast majority of scientific research is well beyond us.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:28PM (#18566105)
"Science" and religion are both equally fallible because both are interpreted, disseminated, and perpetuated by man, which as we all know is about the most fallible thing there is. It's obvious and demonstrable that various religious institutions have had varying levels of corruption over the years as their power has waxed and waned based upon how much faith the people have in them. Why is it such a stretch to see that in this modern era where religion has been pretty much been given up on in favor of a more or less blind belief in whatever headlines tell us "scientists" now say, that once again, power and political motivations corrupt once-pure institutions?

Imagine trying to convince someone of incredible religious conviction that their earthly Church demonstrably has repeatedly fallen victim to corruption over the years, only to have her respond to you with, "but that can't be; the Word of God is unquestionably infallible!" There shouldn't be any problem in holding both of those ideas ("the Word of God (Bible) is literally Gospel and infallibly true" and "absolute power corrupts man") in your head at the same time (if anything, the former explicitly reinforces the latter!), and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Catholic today that won't admit that their earthly Church hasn't gone through periods of incredible corruption and downright evil.

Nobody's going to argue the validity of the scientific method, but when you look at the innate nature of man (demonstrated time and again over the course of all recorded history), it's easy to believe that modern "science" is just as corrupt as any other institution man has made at any point in time that rose to power in the minds of the people, i.e. "very"

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by zaphod4prez on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:06PM (#18585875)
Okay, here's where I see an important difference.

Let's break it down into a few constituent parts. We have a thing (scripture / spiritual belief OR the scientific method as applied to the world). Then, nasty, messy fallible people who probably don't floss... do stuff with that thing: they teach it, they do it, they investigate it in their own messy wayd. And then regular joe-schmo's who aren't so involved in the doing-something-with-the-thing get reallll impressed by these doing-stuff people (priests/rabbis/gurus whatever OR scientists of all sorts).

Okay, well here's the thing. I agree that everybody is messy and fallible. I agree that hand-wavy "Science people are right!" talk is wrong, imprecise and has potential to be harmful. At the same time, I believe in the scientific-method-applied-to-the-world. I believe in its power to reveal truth. I do not have that same belief in scripture-or-organized-religion-applied-to-the-world. And I think that's REALLY important. Of course people do stupid things and make mistakes, but when someone puts blind faith in people-trying-to-adhere-to-science, it scares me a lot less than when someone puts blind faith in people-trying-to-adhere-to-a-religion. In fact, I'd much rather people put blind faith in "scientists" than in... any other type of group, really, at least when it comes to revealing knowledge.

Hopefully that made sense, if anyone has thoughts or disagrees, I'm more than happy to hear it.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by saeranv on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:34PM (#18566136)
Let's put it this way, do you feel a monarchy is as equally corruptible as a democracy?

Both are institutions constructed by greedy, corrupt, stupid, fallible human beings. It's just that the latter has built in several mechanisms to address this. Like science.

So over a long period of time, democracies have proven to be less corrupt then monarchies, and like-wise, science has proven to be less wrong then religion.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:48PM (#18566207)
Define "democracy." Purely democratic systems are absolutely fallible; mob rule is a thing man is prone to falling prey to in such systems. This is why basically nobody uses straight-up direct democracy today, especially in the age of everyone having read/write access to a global information network in their pockets at all times.

But even putting that aside, and accepting for sake of the argument that the political system in use in countries such as the United States is a "democracy" ...still, yes. Did political corruption magically disappear overnight when we stopped being ruled by monarchs? Were all monarchies corrupt to begin with?

"Democracy is to monarchy as science is to religion" is an incredibly muddled comparison that does not make much sense when you break it down. Modern Christianity would not be where it is today without Protestantism questioning core fundamental beliefs and then-current leadership. When does what is accepted as "Science" get to have its version of Protestantism, questioning not just the dogma of "settled science" (the most hilarious oxymoron of all time), but those who spread it to the masses as well?

Why is it that Christians, even Catholics have no problem admitting to the fallibility of what they consider to be their holiest of institutions, yet atheists seem to believe that "science" is inherently always impossible to be anything but utterly pure use of the scientific method conducted with nothing but the utmost honesty, at every level?

The motivations of man are not always pure, especially when in positions of power and/or authority. Even if you want to disregard religion entirely, at least take lessons from the history it has given us.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by phs318u on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:12PM (#18566599)
You keep raising the straw man of "settled science" - who here, or in fact in the scientific community, believes this let alone proclaims it? Even in broader (non-scientifically literate) society, there are few people (in my experience) that believe science knows everything already.

Science had its "protestant" moment - it was called the Enlightenment, and it result from questioning the dogma of settled knowledge as promulgated by religions through the infallibility of scripture.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:53PM (#18566793)
I'm not going to list politically-charged examples because that's highly unlikely to lead to productive discussion and everyone here knows it.

I'm not knowledgeable about philosophy or metaphysics but is there even anything approaching consensus on whether or not there even is a "knowledge ceiling" that an individual or even society could ever achieve? (If so, I'd love to know how anyone came to that conclusion lol)

>Science had its "protestant" moment - it was called the Enlightenment, and it result from questioning the dogma of settled knowledge as promulgated by religions through the infallibility of scripture.

You seem to have misunderstood the analogy I was making. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, yet view Protestantism as having been a positive thing for Christianity as a whole, including Roman Catholicism. When is dogmatic belief in whatever passes for "science" these days going to be scrutinized? Systemic corruption of any sufficiently powerful institution of man is inevitable, and just because the scientific method is about as pure of a means of reasoning about the world around us as we can come up with and has led to profound advancements in technology and our understanding of our world... doesn't mean that everyone's just going to ignore the fact that using the now-widespread dogmatic belief in its infallibility is a pretty powerful means of achieving external political and personal goals unrelated to the pursuit of truth. It's naive to think otherwise.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by phs318u on Friday November 30, 2018 @01:10AM (#18567121)
You keep bringing in disparate arguments as if they are part of the same thing - infallibility, knowledge ceiling, dogmatism - and also throwing in the odd barb - "whatever passes for science these days" (the answer to which, is "science!").

Yes, agreed that human systems have a tendency to corruption, however the scientific method at least has within it the seeds to "keep the bastards honest" (as we say where I come from). i.e.

1. Nothing stops you from learning and becoming a scientist. 2. Nothing stops you from attempting to repeat published experiments, or if you can't, then to point out why (which are likely to be faults in either the description or execution of the original experiment).

In other words, there is transparency and a basis for objective comparison. Lack of transparency (either through gatekeeping or lack of detail) is considered a bad sign in science. That's what differentiates the scientific method, from say, the "political method", or "the religious method".

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by mrunkel on Friday November 30, 2018 @02:09AM (#18567331)
I think you’re not going to win this argument, but I will point out that you can’t look at a giant meadow of grass, focus on a few weeds and say, “see, it’s not grass!”.

As a system, science has brought about a better understanding of the physical world around us and has dramatically improved the lives of every human on the planet.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by adamrezich on Friday November 30, 2018 @02:04AM (#18567316)
You keep beginning your responses with formal criticisms of my posts instead of the content within, starting with "You keep..." This time it accuses my previous post of "bringing in disparate arguments," but said post contains three paragraphs excluding the pull quote; the first two address pieces of the first paragraph of the post of yours my post was responding to, while the third paragraph directly responds to the second paragraph, indicated by a pull quote. It's clear you're either not really interested in discussion, or we're talking past each other, so there really isn't a need to continue this conversation thread.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by larksimian on Monday December 03, 2018 @04:49AM (#18587544)
Science as a system of producing knowledge (and rules for what to do and how to live) differs from religion in key ways:

1. It places empirical observation as the ultimate form of evidence, as opposed to scripture/existing knowledge.

If you observe something that contradicts existing theories and other people can make that observation then existing theories are disproven, the end. This still takes time to propagate, but really only for highly complicated abstract theories(of which climate change might be one!)

2. Science has a built in competitive market type process for selecting 'scripture' and an incentive to constantly be updating it.

Religions have more bureaucratic/despotic approaches to updating knowledge(college of cardinals/pope, influential preachers etc).

3. The core questions science tackles are physical and amenable to observation and maths. The core questions religion tackles are metaphysical, or to put them in evo-psych terms to do with selecting and reproducing rules of behavior that produce good societies in which to live over tens/hundreds of generations.

In as much as science tries to enter into that hyper-long term planning game it should be treated with extreme suspicion, it's a different statistical environment to that of physics and the existing statistical tools of science are probably not up to the task. It's the land of Taleb's fat tails and iterated games and exponential chaos, not statistically modelable quantum experiments(top pick a complicated but tractable problem).

Shitty metaphor: Hard sciences are about solving P problems, or at worst approximating NP or worse, but still computable, problems. Religion and social science are about providing heuristics to uncomputable problems(if you have a C program and all it does is return then it definitely halts etc). In as much as people take the NP approximations as seriously as the P solutions, they're in for some rude awakenings. In as much as a lot of our society does then we're in for a bumpy ride.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by scottlocklin on Friday November 30, 2018 @04:42PM (#18572930)
I dunno; there are vastly more people doing "science" now than in 1850, and a hell of a lot fewer technological changes, improvements and so on. I look at the people claiming the mantle now (used to be one of them!) as about as credible as if some MBA showed up and took credit for the Hoover dam.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by beaconstudios on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:23PM (#18564698)
it's funny to see this observation here. HN is one of the worse places for scientism. Having an argument? Drop a citation to NIH. Doesn't matter that neither of you read the paper, the title loosely alludes to your point so you win.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by el_cid on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:46PM (#18564875)
I really like and recommend CS Lewis articles and essays on Scientism
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by extra88 on Friday November 30, 2018 @04:46PM (#18572982)
What are examples the term "scientist" being used in an inappropriate way? To me, a scientist is someone who is educated in the scientific method and experience using it to perform experiments. It's mostly applied to people for whom it's their profession but you can be an amateur scientist.

Yes, day to day there's a certain level of trust put in what scientists say based on their research, everyone can't know everything, but it's not blind faith. With priests, ultimately there's an expectation of belief without evidence.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by ed_balls on Friday November 30, 2018 @08:36AM (#18568954)
It's other way around. Priests used to be the science class, but a few hundred years ago they split into 2 camps.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by moretai on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:13PM (#18564628)
Hence our fetishization that results in a watermill of these intellectuals
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by beaconstudios on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:22PM (#18564693)
shopping is making material sacrifices on the altar of the Self. How is buying some designer nonsense at 1000% markup to appease your ego much different from sacrificing a prize animal to appease an external God? Neither are likely to actually help you in return.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by krausejj on Friday November 30, 2018 @09:33AM (#18569345)
Isn't shopping/consumerism deeply entwined with a distorted notion of the "self" ? I am what I have, what I wear, where I fall on the status-totempole.

An alternative would be a community-outlook. I am part of a greater whole. I don't really own anything. We are living a story, together.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by JoeAltmaier on Friday November 30, 2018 @09:55AM (#18569478)
Simple skinnerism would also explain consumerism. Oh look! Shiny! That could stimulate my dopamine receptors briefly, I'll get it.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by w3gv on Thursday November 29, 2018 @06:51PM (#18565322)
I would say impulses rather than shopping. West is obsessed with being "free" i.e. do whatever I want at anytime
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by anon2775 on Saturday December 01, 2018 @01:09AM (#18575505)
Yes. What's missing from modern life is somewhat intended by corporations and the political elite: the atomizing of people from each other via glowing screens and burning down of community that churches functioned to anchor people together. The multitude of consequences are loneliness, isolation, friendlessness, depression, anxiety and more suicidal than ever. I'm not arguing magical thinking in any form has any inherent value, but the caring about each other and the social commonwealth collectivism, empathy and support it provided are indispensable to sane, decent, good and successful people. The charity, forgiveness and nonviolent disobedience by deed part of many traditional religous traditions embody virtues that to most are inherently inspirational, noble and provide the foundation of civilization as functional, decent and possessing integrity. If we let society devolve into Orwellian, Kafkaesque, social Darwinism, then feudalism, inverted or outright totalitarianism, bullshit and brutality will comprise the primary palette of the social contract.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by cmmartin on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:57PM (#18564969)
You are the messiah. Money is the god.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by krausejj on Friday November 30, 2018 @09:28AM (#18569307)
Have you read the book "Stand Firm" ? It was a best-seller in Denmark, with the idea that our new religion is "find yourself inside." The author advises that most who look inside won't find anything, and that we should look outward instead.

Ultimately, the author is making a case for a modern version of Stoicism.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by betamichael on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:06PM (#18564566)
"Wherever you go, there you are." I've that saying a couple of times.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by thisisit on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:29PM (#18566670)
> I think we in the west ended up replacing religion with, not an absence of it, but with a religion of the Self

More like objectivisim or individualism. Many of my small talks with people in the west include discussion about Ayn Rand and her work on FountainHead and Atlas Shrugged. After hearing about it for a long time I read the book. And frankly, the whole concept of individualism is strange to me.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by scarecrowbob on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:52PM (#18563335)
I'm more or less an atheist by most standards, and I'm okay with that description.

I fundamentally agree with you.

We need things (that we imagine to be) outside of ourselves that are good in order to structure what we do. That otherness can be in the form of God or in the form of ethics, or in the form of whatever we unconsciously pickup as meaningful.

Culturally (in the US at least), I don't think that there are a lot of serious options just laying around for people to pick up if they aren't into religion, and so we unconsciously pick up other people, transient material successes, short term goal fulfillment, or novelty seeking as a substitute for these long term orientations.

When we unconsciously adopt those things (human relationships, solving our short term projects, being smart, or whatever) I think that we're bound to be disappointed because all of those things are pretty finite in what you can do with them: there is always a limit to how close a relationship can be, how healthy your body can be, how much professional success you can attain, and so on.

I have a 17 year old who lives with me, and when he goes off to college, I will be happy. I am glad that I have a lot more in my life than just my children, because in the end it's important that they leave, eventually.

Even your closest human relations need to have limits.

So the choice seems to be between living with short term successes, picking up religion, or doing a lot of intellectual work to try and find meaningful stuff that doesn't have the same frustrating limits as the short-term goals.

At this point, I have been finding that last option much more useful... finally, after two decades of being a dead weight of alienating drag, my degree in philosophy is starting to work out some things.

So, yeah, I think that you're right: an ethic where you place meaning in your life in the wellbeing of humanity in general is a strong idea.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jf- on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:54PM (#18563353)
That’s more a value system, or maybe an ideology, than a religion. Though I’ll agree the two do more or less occupy the same cognitive space. There is no need for anything mystical to be involved.

Today we are experimenting with new phenomena that have never been available to humanity en mass. Effective birth control, gender equality, freedom from restrictive social norms, all of these are very new, and indeed evolutionarily novel. We have not yet learned a tradition of how to operate in this space, we are the pioneers, and unfortunately a lot of missteps befall the pioneers.

Eventually through trial and error, and a kind of evolutionary process, we’ll figure it out, and then that will get passed down as the new value system. Then we’ll have kids again more or less following in the footsteps of their parents, they’ll just be footsteps we wouldn’t necessarily expect.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by r00fus on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:21PM (#18564688)
> That’s more a value system, or maybe an ideology, than a religion.

The difference is that the social structure which promotes the value system is valuable in and of itself (this said as someone who grew up religious but is not anymore). A lot of people can't "walk the path" without others to walk with them.

The only issue is that sometimes that social structure has downsides like occasionally becoming politically charged, self-serving or abusive.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by maratd on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:46PM (#18563829)
> Today we are experimenting with new phenomena

Pretty sure every generation from the beginning of time has thought of itself as a pioneer exposed to new forces and new phenomena. It's a bit arrogant to think that you're the one and only.

There are a multitude of other changes that have transformed our environment (agriculture, spoken language, written language, barter, commerce, etc.) over the millennia.

> There is no need for anything mystical to be involved.

And yet something mystical has been involved for thousands of years, in virtually every culture. When we tried to eradicate it forcefully (communism), bad things happened. Perhaps there's more to it than you think?

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jf- on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:57PM (#18563936)
The pace of change over the last century makes the pace over the last few thousand years look like a crawl. Agriculture was not invented and brought to the point of industrialisation within a single human lifetime. I’d wager that spoken language took a bit longer than a few decades to perfect as well. You’re not comparing like with like.

> And yet something mystical...

People need explanations for things, when they don’t have them they invent them.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by zapzupnz on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:14PM (#18564083)
> When we tried to eradicate it forcefully (communism), bad things happened

This is a little disingenuous.

Yes, states described as communist attempted to eradicate religion; to do that, they merely replaced religion with the state. The state became the church, its leaders became the saints.

Don't conflate the example of failed, corrupt Stalinist communist states with the concept of the eradication of religion, they're not at all mutually inclusive.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by maratd on Thursday November 29, 2018 @08:20PM (#18565804)
> The state became the church, its leaders became the saints.

Can you name a single attempt to eradicate religion that didn't end up with the very description you provide?

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by zapzupnz on Thursday November 29, 2018 @10:21PM (#18566367)
No, but history’s follies are not the full extent of all possibilities and potential consequences.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by dempseye on Friday November 30, 2018 @06:52AM (#18568426)
Stalin brought back the orthodox church after Lenin got rid of it. When Stalin died, Khruschev cracked down on the church again.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by maratd on Friday November 30, 2018 @11:51AM (#18570384)
Not quite. When he took power, he ruthlessly enforced atheism and slaughtered anyone who stood in his way. Only when he was fighting for his life with the Nazis did he find the Orthodox Church useful in his efforts. After he was done with the Nazis, he went back to his old tricks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_t...

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by dempseye on Friday November 30, 2018 @12:44PM (#18570800)
Stalin's relative clemency towards the orthodox church does give the lie to the idea that the policy is "Stalinist." It was a Leninist policy of long standing. Khruschev reverted to it despite his explicit denunciation of Stalinism.

> After he was done with the Nazis, he went back to his old tricks.

According to the article you yourself linked, he was pretty soft on them from after the war until his death.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by samhain on Thursday November 29, 2018 @08:46PM (#18565903)
>Effective birth control

What if at the end, we end up realizing that all there is to life is a struggle in order to propagate our own DNA, and that really this struggle may not be worth it? Humanity as a whole could decide that this is all there is, and then that ultimately there really is no point other than what you make it. What if humanity bucked it's genetic programming, recognizing it for what it really is. And recognizing that what we are really up against, is the laws of physics themselves. That we've been dealt a raw deal, meaning that we must work in some way to sustain our own being, and that only the laws of the universe stop us from being truly free. That in the end, birthing children really isn't a blessing, but a curse. And that truly the best gift you can give your unborn children is the gift of non-existence.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by gus_massa on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:35PM (#18566143)
The other half of humanity that think that birthing children really is a blessing will outnumber you.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by ionised on Friday November 30, 2018 @07:44AM (#18568660)
A blessing from who?

God?

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by zaphod4prez on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:20PM (#18585929)
What's the "this" that is all there is? What is the struggle you describe, exactly, and what would it mean for it to be "worth" it? What do you mean by freedom, exactly, and on what basis is it good (you imply that it's good and important to be "truly free")?

Those questions are semi-rhetorical (although I'd love to hear an answer if you want to have a convo about it), but your paragraph rings some alarm bells for me. Have you read Thomas Nagel's "The Absurd"? I think it directly and decisively addresses many of the concerns you bring up.

Here's a link to the paper: https://philosophy.as.uky.edu/sites/default/files/The%20Absu...

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jf- on Thursday November 29, 2018 @10:25PM (#18566386)
I prefer to imagine our descendants being happy.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by EdSharkey on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:09PM (#18564596)
The hitch is that you can't work hard enough to stem the tide of suffering in the world. It's a hopeless situation because the world is broken and suffering and death are unavoidable. If the world is broken, then there is no path to salvation through works.

The message in religion, particularly in the message of Christianity, is that life is suffering because of ubiquitous sin - BUT - God came here bodily to teach us how to live, freeing us from the sin of broken laws, and died as a final blood sacrifice to wipe the sin slate clean.

Jesus is definitely the superman to model one's life after (be charitable, be loving, forgive, don't lead others to sin, speak truthfully, don't be a hypocrite, etc...) But, the main point the religion teaches is that salvation can only come through faith that Jesus is God and not by any good works you do.

You can get all rational and say that's all magic mumbo jumbo, but it's actually really good psychology. Belief in a higher power that saves leads to good people. It's beneficial to mental health when you can surrender the notion that anything you do will fix the world and that life isn't hopeless. And there is a power to prayer. We can definitely make things better here, and we are, but no works can eliminate all of the evil in the human heart.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by NeedMoreTea on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:23PM (#18563614)
No need of religion, just the new way of doing things. I feel you are talking of a loss of community. Of human beings being of benefit to each other that can be separate from religion. I do see that the church provides a community for many who can participate in that, even though I am a life-long atheist. But broadly, I agree with you.

For my parents and their siblings that meant the furthest apart they were until mid life, ignoring war service, was around 50 or so miles. Not by choice, but there were jobs, opportunities and housing locally. Not in each other's pockets like in a small village, but near enough to meet up regularly, visit when passing, take me over to my uncle or gran if they needed to go somewhere. There was some overlap between friends. There was always someone pretty locally.

For me and my siblings, friends and cousins, we are a far flung bunch, and it is the same for most of my friends. I have a relative 300 miles one way, one on another continent, another 200 miles the other way who I've almost completely lost touch with. Some friends have even more far flung friends and family. For the most part that seems to have come at a high cost. Not just when someone is taken ill, or at Christmas, but in day to day life, in our ways of parenting, in our closeness (or more accurately our lack of closeness) in day to day life. The lonely mum stuck miles away from relatives, the dad trying to keep it together alone. Maybe it even explains some of the addiction to social media.

Maybe I read far too much into it, having reached an age where mortality is far more apparent, and people I thought as young have died. My parents and their peers seemed to have had a level of contentment with their lot, even though many were in WW2 - sometimes at great cost, that me and my peers have utterly lost.

I have no answers. I wish I did.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by magicnubs on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:31PM (#18563682)
> I have no answers. I wish I did.

I think this is something that VR tech good enough to make you feel like you're really in the same room as someone (meaning not just visuals, but sight, sound, touch, smell) will help with. That may be hundreds of years away though.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by acabal on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:22PM (#18564141)
I very much agree and I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Interestingly enough, this line of thought is not new. People like Auguste Comte in the 1850s saw the industrial and technological revolution as an engine working to erode religion, and he wanted to work towards an alternative.

For many people, religion generally provides two things: 1) An overt faith-based explanation of why we're here, how the world came to be, and how important events are driven (God), and 2) a system of ethical and moral rules evolved over centuries to allow everyone to life their "best life".

As science and technology advanced, many people lost the need for #1, and started to abandon religion entirely. That kind of makes sense, because #1 is often the marquee headline of religion. But in abandoning religion, they also lost #2, the quieter, but perhaps even more important, aspect. There is nothing in today's modern society that can seriously fill that gap. (In the past, fraternal organizations played that role to some extent, but they are largely irrelevant today.)

Comte put together a "Religion of Humanity" in an attempt to provide people with point #2, couched in the familiar structure of religion and ceremony, but without the faith-based belief of point #1. It saw some medium-level success in its day but is now defunct. It was perhaps too early for its time.

However I think the idea is more important now than it ever was. People need an ethical, community-based, traditions-based societal structure they can attend regularly and fall back on, but without the requirement that one believe in faith-based myths and legends. We need a new "Religion of Humanity".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_of_Humanity

https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/auguste-comte/a-general-vi...

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by justhelpingout on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:43PM (#18564341)
A system of ethics and moral rules that is evolved over time with no relation to how things are in themselves is simply so much legacy code, to be replaced by the stronger man at a time convenient to him.

If, on the other hand, moral rules and ethics are due to the natures of things then there must be someone who intended things to exist in the manner they are intended to exist. That being must be a person because of the principle of sufficient cause (since we exist). Faith is the response to communication from this person. It does not require abandoning of reason, but simply picks up where reason cannot ascend to because of its lack of perspective.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jf- on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:03PM (#18564537)
> If, on the other hand, moral rules and ethics are due to the natures of things then there must be someone who intended things to exist in the manner they are intended to exist.

This is not at all clear to me. Can you clarify?

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by justhelpingout on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:17PM (#18564654)
Morals and ethics are either relative or absolute. If they are relative then they are not based on "what a thing is" (it's essence, to use an Aristotelean term) but on "how useful it is to me" or some other relative criteria). If, on the other hand, "what you ought to do with this thing" is based on "what is this thing and what is it intended to be", then there must exist some `intender` who is the reason for this thing's form / end being what that form / end is.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jf- on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:35PM (#18564788)
Thanks for the explanation. Something that is absolute needs an absolute reference frame, in other words. Here you’re saying that the absolute reference frame is what God intends.

I’m not sure that there is such an absolute reference frame for morality, but this is too long a conversation to get into here!

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by kirse on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:55PM (#18563907)
I think it is in a "believe in Jesus" way. In the book of Matthew, Jesus reaches out to folks who have finally come to this exhausting revelation:

Matthew 11:28-30 - “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

If anything she is blessed to have finally reached the end of her self-effort and encounter the weighty truth we find in Ecclesiastes -- that everything under the sun is indeed meaningless (vanity).

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by acqq on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:51PM (#18564918)
More Matthew, from, 10:34 and on, writing what Jesus personally says, according to him:

"“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

Or maybe Mark 11:12 and on:

"12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it."

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by TheBeardKing on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:33PM (#18563695)
Voluntarily serving others through time or money is definitely a good way to find some purpose, or at the very least, just not feel so selfish. A good opportunity that I've found that other HN folk might be interested in is donating your time to STEM clubs at public schools, especially those with less advantaged kids. They're usually after school and the one I'm doing is in the Lego robotics competition targeted towards 5th-7th graders.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Domenic_S on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:54PM (#18563352)
Love this.

We don't want happiness out of life, we want meaning. And we have the most meaning when we're impacting other people. Impacting people can start small, like your wonderful examples, or be huge like starting a successful company. There are so many ways.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by trevyn on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:28PM (#18563660)
I deeply disagree with this — if you can achieve happiness without meaning, there is no need for meaning.

Of course, I understand that achieving happiness can be challenging, and that seeking meaning can be a meaningful step on that path.

But it is possible to have happiness without meaning, and that seems more valuable than meaning without happiness, or happiness that relies on a sense of meaning.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by extragood on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:50PM (#18564410)
According to Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics", happiness is the greatest good in life.

The pursuit of a meaningful life puts way too much pressure on identifying what is meaningful and worth our energies. That would probably decrease my happiness.

What if I can't find any pursuit that I consider to be the most meaningful? Am I OK committing to something that could potentially be less than optimal in terms of meaningfulness?

It isn't that important for me to evaluate my actions on meaningfulness - I'm bound to disappoint my self by that metric.

Prioritizing meaningfulness over happiness is putting the cart before the horse, in my mind.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by trevyn on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:59PM (#18564504)
Ha, I think you just explained why Effective Altruists always seem so stressed out.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Domenic_S on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:57PM (#18563938)
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by trevyn on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:25PM (#18564165)
Ah, interesting. Thank you for challenging my assertion.

Upon deeper introspection, my own personal experience of “happiness without meaning” is closer to “the meaning is just the universe/physics unfolding (and I happen to be a part of that)”, which is so all-encompassing that it has little meaning itself, in the Kolmogorov complexity sense. And concomitant well-being, which I would define as closer to “completely neutral affective experience” rather than the “positive affective experience” described as hedonic well-being in the study you referenced.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by nradov on Friday November 30, 2018 @09:47AM (#18569441)
Why is happiness valuable?
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by alexashka on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:34PM (#18563715)
The lady isn't struggling with meaning - she's struggling with having lived a care-free life and is now realizing that the ability to form a family and/or have a career that earns above average, has passed her by.

There isn't anything to 'do' to solve this - because there is no problem. She's made trade-offs she wasn't fully aware of and now she's coming to see them for what they are. She'll pout for a few days/months/years and then move on with her life.

This 'become something that is worth being' aka Jordan Peterson cult of 2018, is going to run it's course too, because most people are average, and this 'worth being' is always something an average person isn't already doing. When they start doing it, 'worth being' will become something more difficult surely because it's never enough. What a great way to view yourself as above others and continue being an ego-maniac (what Jordan Peterson is)

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Nomentatus on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:10PM (#18564604)
I agree, she exploited her good fortune (including youth and beauty as a woman in a society that gives that enormous power), and along the way she didn't spend much effort helping others or figuring out how to so that's no satisfaction to her now. She still wants her lottery ticket to win, she just doesn't see how.

Most people are average, which means they can become well-above average at some one useful thing that is "worth being." Most people do get there. "Worth being" clearly implies, that being enough.

If J.P. were actually an ego-maniac he would have been chewed up and spit out by society long ago; standing against the crowd isn't easy work.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by dominotw on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:01PM (#18563408)
> You can always do something meaningful with your life.

There lies the rub. What if you don't find anything to be meaningful to you. This implies that there are some activities that are inherently more meaningful that others and you just have to find them. Now you are back to square one.

Can it be rewritten to

> You can always find meaning in anything you do

This doesn't handwave the problem away. Main task is to find meaning in yourself not keep looking for activities that will give you meaning and hope you get lucky.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by astrocat on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:40PM (#18563783)
It seems like "you can always find meaning in anything you do" turns the sentiment back into being about YOU, which is what OP seemed to be lamenting in the first place.

As you expressed, you see the task as "find meaning in yourself," a concept that can maybe be expressed as "meaning comes from within." This sounds nice! I think what OP was getting at is that this perspective has two problems: 1. It requires you to produce your own sense of "meaning" (whatever that means) that is self-satisfying, AND that works well in the society/community in which you exist; and 2. it is fundamentally self-centered. A hypothesis could be that this perspective seems to most frequently result in a failure to find "meaning" (probably better called "contentment") in anything.

As OP said, faith/religion traditions tend to hand you a set of pre-defined "here's what's meaningful" morals, and these also tend to be skewed towards group value instead of just self-satisfaction. When handed this outlook on meaning/morals, it seems possible there might be benefits - not having to come up with a self-fulfilling sense of meaning that also meshes with broader society, as well as a focus on being useful to the community instead of just yourself.

I personally find the whole "be yourself" / "do what you love" dogma-du-jour to be terrible, and prone to actually resulting in depression and shame. It is at the same time selfish, and self-sabotaging.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by technobabble on Thursday November 29, 2018 @06:50PM (#18565315)
Because here's something else that's true. In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism.

There is no such thing as not worshipping.

Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And an outstanding reason for choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship – be it J.C. Or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan mothergoddess or the Four Noble Truths or some infrangible set of ethical principles –

is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive.

If you worship money and things – if they are where you tap real meaning in life – then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. On one level we all know this stuff already – it's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, bromides, epigrams, parables: the skeleton of every great story. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart – you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. And so on.

David Foster Wallace, from This is Water, a commencement speech he gave in 2005.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by samhain on Thursday November 29, 2018 @08:51PM (#18565928)
>If you worship money and things – if they are where you tap real meaning in life – then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It's the truth.

The only reason he has to assert it like that is because it isn't true. He has a lack of imagination if he's not able to imagine someone who doesn't worship anything. I imagine he'd just move the goalposts though, and say "oh well they worship their lack of worship, which is a form of eating them alive." It's disingenuous at best, but probably just ignorance, so that he can sound profound without really giving a convincing argument.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by kaizendc on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:09PM (#18586078)
You're right, the hedonic adaptation is all imaginary. David Foster Wallace and the many psychologists who support it's existence are all wrong.

Perhaps they should read your dissertation on it?

/s

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by ransom1538 on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:41PM (#18563789)
If you are in this situation, if you have 20 minutes, watch 4 vidoes:

https://www.youtube.com/user/DaveRamseyShow

This man specializes in this.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by lackbeard on Thursday November 29, 2018 @06:05PM (#18565012)
Which 4 videos?
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by detcader on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:32PM (#18564236)
How you've written things is exactly how Buddhist mindfulness authors Christina Feldman, Sharon Salzberg, Jon Kabat-Zinn, and Pema Chödrön have been writing and thinking about it. I recommend checking out Wherever You Go, There You Are.

It's clear to me how all of the reaction and distraction we've started to discover that the current Internet lets us cling to will drive people to start seriously evaluating teachings of mindfulness and Buddhism.

Mindfulness interest is trending the highest it's ever been: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=m...

Also interesting, searches for Buddhism peak yearly in the fall/winter?: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=b...

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by PascLeRasc on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:01PM (#18564517)
I'm a data point of your last sentence. Meditation and reading Buddhist writings is part of how I survive SAD.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by solatic on Friday November 30, 2018 @09:37AM (#18569371)
> It's in being of benefit to the human beings around you. And in serving those around you, you become something that is worth being.

I both agree and disagree with you. On the one hand, you're right that most people would be happier if they committed more and gave more. Human relationships are a positive-sum game.

But people who mindlessly follow that advice are asking to be exploited. History is full of dictators who grew rich and powerful off the backs of people whom they persuaded to think of something other than themselves. "Blut und boden." "Deus, pátria, e família."

What religion is supposed to be (whether it succeeds is a different question) is a moral compass so that one may find happiness and meaning in service to others, without your good intentions being exploited or usurped against your interests.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Noumenon72 on Saturday December 01, 2018 @08:03PM (#18580097)
How does it prevent you from being exploited? By only helping coreligionists who are not supposed to exploit each other?
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by j45 on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:02PM (#18563421)
If we see religion as a dominant world viewpoint, it becomes less about one particular religious interpretation (or not), and more about the benefits of having a practice that helps you be better for yourself and others.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by austincheney on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:11PM (#18564061)
It could be argued that belief systems are an inescapable component of the human experience and religion forces a person to channel thinking about such in a deliberate cognitive way.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by kelnos on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:29PM (#18564746)
I fundamentally agree with your message (and, as an atheist, try to live it as well as I can), but I don't see why you need religion to propagate it.

Then again, perhaps religion is just helpful here in the sense that people -- especially those going through emotional/existential crises -- might find it easier to climb out of a hole with dogma as a guide rather than rational thought.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by GlenTheMachine on Thursday November 29, 2018 @08:06PM (#18565727)
I wasn’t trying to say one needs religion to look past oneself. I was instead tipping my hat to religion, in the sense that I think this is a thing religion very much gets right. And it is through religion that most people in our culture are exposed to the idea.

That being said, religion does a pretty poor job of spreading the gospel of loosing oneself in the service of others. It tends to focus on religiosity instead. But imho it does a better job than almost any other institution we have.

Which is to say that as a culture we are pretty terrible at it.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by teekert on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:29PM (#18563667)
Until you are the type of person that is always focused on others and wants everybody to be happy, often at the cost of expressing your own opinion. Then you'd need a dose of Ayn Rand and you also won't be popular on HN, but what the hell.

If you strip away all the industrial entrepreneur worshiping, there is a beautiful lesson about the ethics of expressing what you want and allowing loved ones to do things for you, because they want to see you happy, because they love the real, full you. I guess one can come from many sides but in the end I agree with the writer of this piece, it is about accepting yourself, including the things you don't like. If you've seen Naruto, this is the height of the series for me: [0] (None of the movies will play though.)

[0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=naruto+hugs+himself&t=ffsb&ia=vide...

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by MagnaEterna on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:40PM (#18563784)
Religion and conservatism is really good groundwork for those who aren't exceptional. Hard to say if the world is a better place with religion in it but it's easy to say that some people's lives /are/ better because of it.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Brockenstein on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:30PM (#18564222)
There's a million ways to be. One of them is good for some group of people.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by madrox on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:11PM (#18564609)
I identified with the person in the article, and what you described is how I pulled myself out of it. It was a mix somewhere between depression and existential despair. The notion of putting others first, kindness, and empathy is absolutely compatible with a secular lifestyle.

That said, I'd also encourage this person to seek therapy. Sometimes knowing the answer isn't enough and you need help getting there...perhaps with the benefit of medication.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by laurex on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:52PM (#18564428)
Religion might also be thought of as a part of social evolution necessary to establish trust among increasingly larger social networks. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23297205_The_Origin...]
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by the_clarence on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:37PM (#18564279)
As an atheist I’ve been thinking about that lately and I think I can agree. It looks like in the US nobody cares about the poor people and the homeless and the church is pne of the last organization trying to help people (and convert them, but still).

As long as the US will demonize socialism, people who have nothing won’t get help from the government.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by justhelpingout on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:46PM (#18564371)
Socialism without morality leads to Stalinism. Socialism with morality requires strict (e. g. sworn) obedience to a higher authority (see the monasteries of Catholicism which are strictly speaking socialist).
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by the_clarence on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:09PM (#18564595)
But capitalism without morality ends up being America. Where people sleep in the streets at every corners and need to pay to go to college or get medical treatment.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by justhelpingout on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:25PM (#18564714)
Oliver Twist's England, surely, where children are pressed into service in dangerous factories that can severe limbs and kill, for mere pennies a day?

Otherwise, we definitely agree. We are fallen creatures and will drive earth to hell, regardless of which car we decide to drive there in. Only external help can save us from ourselves.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by r00fus on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:24PM (#18564705)
While the rich own multiple houses in the same street or zipcode.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by CryptoPunk on Thursday November 29, 2018 @07:13PM (#18565444)
America has become substantially more socialist over the last 50 years, if you look at the statistics on social welfare spending, or the number and breadth of social programs in force.

In the past, without the safety net, and with anti-vagrancy laws, the street people would have been doing the work now done by low wage legal and illegal immigrants. It was a hard life, but better than slowly poisoning themselves to death with opioids while living on government aid.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by ahel on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:28PM (#18564204)
I'm from the flock that value his own practical and hard-learnt lessons over prepackaged answers. Yes it could be said it's more inefficient but I see a beautiful depth in earning your own growth.

Following an ethical life path does not provide the same value as rediscovering it.

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by VLM on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:39PM (#18564307)
I think what you're talking about isn't so much a religion as a culture, and we're indoctrinated to actively avoid and make fun of that, so ...
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by philips on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:03PM (#18564535)
I agree! Society is missing a non-theistic answer to this. The closest I have found is the Stoic concept of virtue.
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by kakarot on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:46PM (#18563283)
[deleted]
Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by Domenic_S on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:58PM (#18563390)
Religion, like drugs, can be useful and life-affirming, or it can be misused.

Learning to code in high school is great, you should be proud of that!

Re:‘I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whol... by jfk13 on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:03PM (#18563435)
> Religion, like drugs, can be useful and life-affirming, or it can be misused.

So can computers and programming, come to that.