As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another language; 5 years in school trying to learn French + German, and can still only put together about two sentences. From what I remember, no one else seemed to really pick up the languages either.

>As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another language

I moved to Poland from the UK yonks ago, and have equally disastrous - if not worse - language skills as you.

Not long after arriving, I accidentally got a job at a startup, and I'd been led to believe everything was done in English internally: communications; client emails; heck, even variable names in the code, all was in English and I had nothing to fear.

This turned out to be a slight exaggeration; anything in English was the rare exception, rather than the rule.

You know what, though? Even without lessons and fully resenting Polish's grammar, you learn really quick. You also won't be facing this alone; as long as you're actually capable of getting the job done, plenty of local language speakers in your office will bend over backwards to encourage and help you.

Don't let language be the only thing holding you back. If I had my time again, I'd let things like bureaucracy and road safety guide my decision rather than what noises come out of peoples' mouths.

> even variable names in the code, all was in English

As a English-is-my-second-language person I can't imagine naming variables using any other language but English.

English is most of the times more concise than my mother language (Polish), and it is much easier to share code on the net, find help on stackoverflow, etc.

Say you're implementing a field-specific solution, do you use the US English term or the term that's written on the users know? (specs, documentation, etc)

If another developer comes on board, will their English be fluent enough to know those terms? There's also a huge risk in having a translation error. We're programmers, not translators.

For general variable names, I agree. On the other hand, in my experience, when the programmers aren't fluent enough in English, if English is imposed, they tend to choose really bad variable names and not comment their code properly. So I tend to impose clear names/doc over imposing a specific language.

In Poland it is generally assumed that a programmer knows English, most of the companies here are just branches of companies from other countries (not only US/UK based) and to communicate we use English as a common ground.

Another factor to consider is that if we write in language that has some constructs (e.g. C - if/then/else/while/return/int/double/class/void etc.) then writing:

    if (znalezione) {
       ...
    }

looks awkward.

Also one has to consider popular libraries and functions/methods/classes in them are English based, so this would add even more awkwardness to the code:

    zwierzęta.stream()
        .filter(z -> z.kończyny().contains(noga))
        .map(z -> z.toString())
        .collect(Collectors.toList());

As I said, I'm not talking about the basics, but more especially for field-specific terminology, comments, etc.

I agree with you, but the example you gave is more common than you think. We tend to over-estimate people's language skills. (keep in mind, English is not my native tongue, I'm including myself in there and it's not meant as an attack, just something we need to deal with, and I would not outright exclude bilingual code)

One problem for a startup (as opposed to a consulting firm), is that you would eventually want to have geographically distributed offices and teams, though. So if you start with a code-base in something other than english and then end up opening an office in Ireland, Germany, Singapore or India you will likely end up rewriting into english anyways (never mind the Bay Area, Seattle or NYC, which you will likely need before your company reaches 10,000 developers...).

> If another developer comes on board, will their English be fluent enough to know those terms?

That's why my startup uses language-neutral variable names like i, j, k and x, y, z.

Some advocates of code "expressiveness" would like (or perhaps dread) a word with your lead... ;)

Joke aside, for anyone curious: we use such i, j variables for abstract logic like a counter (e.g. i=0 at the beginning of a loop, and gets incremented by 1 each time the loop runs), or booleans maybe (e.g. P=0 or 1, true or false). But generally it is considered good practice to give names to variables that are self-explanatory (e.g. studentName or vehicle_age) for readability and ease of understanding. Even counters and booleans should be significant when possible (e.g. "hasResponded" or "day_num").

On topic, I think english or not doesn't matter theoretically. Its cultural and indeed 80% of computing/code happens in english on earth (no source, waddayathink!). What matters imho is that semantics are correct (both human and machine language...) and reasonably meaningful to a collaborator.

To anybody wanting to know better: read open-source code. Best school there is, actual practice.

  I can't imagine naming variables using any other language but English.

I spent some time as a consultant auditing other companies' software. Even with platforms where the coding-standards dictated the use of English, most of the projects I audited in Europe used the local language, rather than English - especially in variable names.

Admittedly there was a selection bias - I wasn't ever hired to audit perfectly good software - but it was remarkably common.

>>English is most of the times more concise than my mother language (Polish) [...]

If one were to pick Polish variable names, would the default be the neutral forms[1]? I'm sure this applies to other languages that also have forms of complex declension compared to English. Which would make more sense in Polish?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_grammar#Nouns

> I moved to Poland from the UK yonks ago, and have equally disastrous - if not worse - language skills as you.

Interesting direction. As a Polish person I have to ask: was your reason to move personal, or did you notice a career opportunity and went after it?

So, I still live in the U.S., but generally try to meet people abroad as often as possible while remaining in contact via Facebook, Snapchat, and WhatsApp.

While, personally, the U.K. and Sweden remain the most viable destinations if I were to move abroad, Poland isn't far behind in terms of the personalities of the people I've met, the scenery they've showed me, and the cultural/historical depth there. Obviously, take that with a truck load of salt since I've yet to visit.

Curious what you think of Netherlands and Denmark as places to live and work..

Learning a language in school is different from learning it by yourself. School is force-feeding you everything, at a pace possibly not suited for yourself. You might even start disliking something you liked before because grading and tests sucks the joy out of things. If you, on the other hand, start to learn a language now you can get quite far in a reasonable amount of time (months). Its the difference between external and internal motivation.

Also necessity is quite a motivator and immersion helps tremendously. I'm terrible at teaching myself languages or learning them in school but can pick them up quickly when I'm living abroad where I am immersed in the foreign language and compelled to use it for daily interactions.

This is so true - I hated with passion all that was force-fed to us, for some reason particularly stuff in high school. The only exception for whatever reason for me were foreign languages, physics and history (probably because they were easier for me to learn compared to rest).

It took years to find surprising interest (even passion) in things like biology, geography, or literature for that matter (chemistry is still a big mystery to me, although basic principles seem trivial). Grammar in any language is is still a big no-no.

It might seem ridiculous but if you pick an expensive language course, that adds some proper motivation (with added value of good teachers/materials).

I did it in Japan. Picked up the language with decent enough fluency to handle my job and everyday conversation within 6 months of getting a girlfriend who didn't speak English. The trick to fast language acquisition is to put yourself in a situation where you need it to survive day-to-day.

I knew a colleague at work who tried for years learning German while serving in the U.S. Air Force in Germany. Never was able to pick it up.

Then one day he found his future wife who could speak only in German, and he picked it up instantly.

Duo Lingo found that "sounding like a fool" is a big inhibitor to learning a language. With his wife, I bet your colleague didn't feel that embarrassment and could thus plow through and pick it it up.

To echo the sentiment of other replies here - I learned Mandarin (an incredibly difficult and tonal language) because I literally would have starved without it, and I became fluent in German in 6 months because of a woman. And I too spent years in high school learning Spanish and still lack the ability to construct basic sentences. It's all about the situation you're learning the language in.

Also from the UK and I have the upmost respect for anyone that can speak a second language. I find it incredibly difficult to get beyond a base vocabulary to actually being able to use the language without sounding like a cave man. I assume there'll be a "click" moment somewhere but its hard work getting there.

Incidentally, if you're sticking with Indo-European languages, once you're past the base vocabulary it gets easier, as the "complicated" words are more or less all the same:

telecommunication, Telekommunikation, Télécommunications/communication électronique, telecommunicatie, telecomunicación, etc.

Funny, I'm from the US and find it difficult to understand some of the accents from both North-Eastern Americans (ayy Boston) and some of the UK folks I've met (when they write exactly how they speak).

I'm non-native English speaker and find that I can understand the severely broken pronunciation of people from China or India, but many of the English accents from England are quite impossible. I can ask them to repeat over and over again, and can't understand a thing, and feel rather silly.

I'm a native English speaker with the world's most broadcast accent (the main Hollywood movie accent) and I'm a fan of Sherlock and Doctor Who. Those programs are produced with the most well known UK accents.

And yet I still have to rewind a few times in every episode for dialogue that I just can't decypher. Sometimes I never quite get the words.

"5 years in school" means Nothing

You'll get better results within 1 month living in the target place

Regarding language: you'll surprise yourself. You will have passable French within 6 months or less, and excellent French within 2 years or less, but during the initial 6 months your life will be hell. Your pronunciation will never be as good as that of the natives, though, but if your grammar is all right, no one but complete assholes will mind.

Your pronunciation can most certainly become native. The easiest path there is to immediately abandon all attempts to speak the language as if it is your own, and focus on the rhythm and intonation of the language. Also, pay attention to the shape of your mouth when speaking. I almost feel as if I have an entirely different voice when I speak French than I do in English. Focus on the sound and rhythm of the language as much as you focus on the vocabulary and grammar.

When I was first learning French 22 years ago, my teacher, an older woman who'd grown up and studied in France, shared a funny little joke about French women: their wrinkles start from the lips and spread outward across their face. This was said because they keep their lips far tighter, nearly pursed, than one does when speaking English. I've noticed and paid attention to how the French use their mouths when speaking ever since. It's been immensely helpful.

You are absolutely correct -- French speakers DO use their mouths differently than English speakers. Once I learned this in my Linguistics courses, my accent improved immeasurably.

The mouth is much more pursed, there are more sibilants, sounds either come from the very back of the throat or the very tip of the tongue.

It might help if you were immersed in it, as opposed to a small amount of time in school. But would you be able to function those first few months, that's the question.

I thought the same of myself until I actually tried. At 30 I started learning chinese full time for two years and eventually became fluent. It's possible, but you've got to take time off and dedicate yourself and immerse without using your mother tongue.

From my experience (as a french guys more interested in tech than literature) I really 'learned' spoken english by dating an UK girl (also joined a polyglot club: http://polyglotclub.com/, but living it was a real step forward, nothing compared to years of learning at school). That's the ultimate card up your sleeve to learn a foreign language.

Since brits will probably be loosing their EU work visas soon you probably don't have to worry about having to learn another language any more.

*losing

And English will still be widely used. Even after the rest of the EU breaks up..

Yeah, to learn a language you have to use it. School is a good start, but that's not usually how anyone progresses to the higher levels. Basically, you have to move to the country first and learn the language afterwards.

But yeah, English being the modern lingua franca is a major benefit to SV, London, etc.

If you go somewhere like Amsterdam you wouldn't have any problems since everyone speaks English.

Which is why for English speakers, the only reason to speak to another language badly is for the innate advantage in courtship.

My French improved a lot from just watching TV and looking up any new words in the dictionary.

I moved to France in 2007 and didn't speak the language, to do a math degree. It was fine. The first two years were rough, but after that I had no problems, and by the time I left in 2013 people regularly thought I was a native speaker.

The math/tech background helped a lot in the beginning. The texts there are more structured than normal, so you can get functional quickly without being conversational.

Moving there is the best thing that happened to me. Don't let the language discourage you from going anywhere. You'll struggle, and overcome.

European countries have signs in local language plus English. And then there is France, where even in Paris or even international places like Disneyland Paris you find hardly signs in anything but French. General joe also doesn't or doesn't want to speak English with you, you better speak a little bit French if you visit Paris.

Language lessons in school could be the least effective way to learn a a language. If you are own the ground using it, it is amazing how fast you can learn.

Language lessons are good at giving you the grammatical foundation you need to become literate. I agree that they're pretty bad for fluency in spoken language. To be fair, though, language classes are usually 3-5 hours per week, and you won't become fluent if you move to France or somewhere and only spend 3-5 hours per week trying to speak the language.

Motivations matter too.

I took three years of German in high school and a semester in college. I could never get the der/die/das stuff to stick. Later on I started reading German fiction for fun and then I got frustrated because I know the verb but not who did what to whom and then I got a lot better in the grammatical agreement area quickly.

I have gone through many years of on and off anime fandom without formal schooling. When I do pick up a book about the Japanese language, I often think "that is obvious" or alternately realized I'd heard the phrase many times without understanding it.

I feel the general consensus is that France is good at startup creation, but lacks the infrastructure, particularly capital, to support their growth. Many of the promising ones end up getting bought by an established player, often a semi-public company stemming from an administration, like Orange (former national telecom). In other words, good entrepreneurship, but no chance of disrupting anything.

edit: typos

People mention the lack of VC, infrastructure, tax or other issues, but to me the biggest problem is the lack of talent. I would say that in terms of business skills, there's a surplus of "salesmen" type of founders, but technical founders are missing. France engineers are very smart and engineering school are among the best, but unfortunately I find their curriculum still oriented towards hard engineering (civil, aerospace, nuclear, etc.). On the other hand you can go to a classic university instead of the engineering school and get a computer science degree, but then you don't get as much of the engineer mindset training. Instead you get something leaning towards the pure science training, and due to the lower prestige of the universities, the computer science teaching is lagging behind a US computer science school.

Either the universities could invest more in a better computer science degree, but finding good fundings is probably difficult for public universities whose budget is decided by the government. Or the engineering schools could join the 21st century.

French billionaire Xavier niel recognizes the problem and tries to address it with his "42" school[1], I wonder how much impactful this has been

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(school)

The French engineering talent is top notch... but you'll never see it.

Go to a graduation ceremony at a top school (note: it's delayed 1-2 years after graduation) and you'll learn that the top 10% have ALL left the country, no exception.

(I'm talking about the top in terms of technical abilities, entrepreneurship and/or skills that are valuable to execute , not necessarily school grades).

Given the size of most engineering programs in France and the way students are admitted into these programs, talking about some 10% top doesn't make sense, especially with the criteria that you mention and that cannot be assessed just 2 years after graduation.

Many of these students do start their careers elsewhere, partly due to the way the curriculum is planned (which leads many of them to finish their studies abroad). If you do look for them for your company/startup you'll be able to see them, although you could have to dig a bit deeper due to the small size of these programs (advertising in one specific French university does not have the same impact as in the UK/US and most other countries in the world).

I find it believable and surprising at the same time. Believable because despite what everyone claim, lot of people put money on top of everything else and they will head to where they are welcome to make more money.

Surprising because if a first world nation with high quality life in so many ways faces this problem what about the rest of the world.

It's not about money. There are no jobs in the tech industry in France.

Moved for the job. Stayed abroad for the job and the money.

Then whenever you look at what the country has to offer if you ever go back, you're like: "Fuckkkkkkkk" (yeah, it's that much of a disaster).

I will ask citation on that one, as that's not my experience at all.

I can not find a quote because the numbers are hidden.

But i am in an engineering school, i am in the top 10%, and it is true.

There was even a note from the ministry this year asking engineering school to stop the mandatory semester in a foreign university for all engineering student, to try to reduce the drain.

The truth is it is a lot more complicated than you make it sound.

There are some schools which are relatively young and focus on coding. Historically they were expensive (for French schools), even though one of them is now free thanks to the generosity of a French billionaire. They recruit students with different profiles than the traditional "Grandes Écoles" and they get much less recognition from French employers, especially large companies. Because of that, their top students may indeed be inclined to move abroad, where degrees matter less.

In the more generalist, traditional engineering Grandes Écoles, however, the phenomenon is a lot less prevalent. Some students do move abroad, but my experience is that it is not correlated to their competence. Those with propensity to found companies are more likely to go to the US, but that is mostly because the ecosystem there is like no other. On the other hand, you may have noticed that some large US companies (Google, Facebook...) have been opening research labs in Paris, while top French companies such as Criteo send their marketing department to the US but keep development in France. This is not only because talent is cheaper (others have already explained how low salaries for not mean low costs) but also because top technical talent doesn't necessarily want to emigrate. This is cliché, but Fabrice Bellard is still living in France, and Yann Le Cun moved back. :)

Which number is hidden ? Certainly not proportion of people working outside France (e.g. it took me 2 mins to find the one from my own former school, ~25 %).

I am dubious because as mentioned by hiq above, you would need to wait much more than 2 years to figure out who are the "best". Another reason I am dubious is that working in France or at least in a French company is still the best way to climb the hierarchy fast when you're coming from X/Central Paris/ Mines de Paris/Telecom/etc... except for a few specific fields (finance comes to mind).

> working in France or at least in a French company is still the best way to climb the hierarchy fast when you're coming from X/Central Paris/ Mines de Paris/Telecom/etc...

For those in those French "Ivy league" it makes sense to stay in a non-meritocracy / credentials based company then, but for all other engineering schools, it's a better deal to get a 6 figures salary job in the US, where it's much closer to a meritocracy than in traditional French companies.

In US tech you certainly see some Harvard, Stanford, mit graduates, but also a lot of non ivy league colleges with jobs such as software engineer, program manager, management, etc. One extreme example is Satya Nadella who got his MS from University of Wisconsin. Even if is undergrad degree was prestigious is India, it doesn't have the ivy League "power" similar to a X/Centrale/Mines in France or Harvard in the US in traditional jobs.

Agree, it makes sense for the ones who are from these schools AND have family/friend leverage to get right into a position of power they shouldn't get, out of school or soon. They guys definitely stay in France.

However, if you're from these schools but have nothing except your hard work to sell, you're better off in UK/USA (and your alumni network definitely extends there)... but you're likely a Parisian with friends/family/housing in Paris, so there are strong incentives to stay in the place you already are. Your school name alone will afford you a career decent enough for little effort.

For someone from any other school who ain't Parisian, there is no incentive to emigrate to Paris. The opportunities are much better in the UK/USA to the point of insanity, and it may even be easier logistically (it was for me).

For an European. Why the hell would he go to Paris? It's not even worth if for French people who ain't already in Paris.

I can't find anything online about that note from a ministry, do you have access to any sources? (either French or English)

Well I am french, top 1 and it's false... Sorry guy just open your eyes and go to the dynamic part of the french society.

Thank you for saying that. I am top 1 too, we're meant to work together =)

How much does the dynamic part of the French society offered you for you work?

At CES's startup area Eureka Park, I was stunned by the French turnout -- with, of course, the usual wide variation in seeming quality or likelihood of finding a market you might expect, still it wasn't another row of VR headsets for my phone.

The timing can't be too much of a coincidence.

The french tech stuff actually predates brexit.

There's been a lot of nice french initiatives to promote tech, in the last few years. It's still hard to overcome the anglosphere bias and to promote internationally, but from the inside it's still a nice atmosphere.

The issue is why can't France even attract engineers and investors from WITHIN the Eurozone, these people don't need Visa. The issue is elsewhere, not in the pool of engineers. France can't even retain its own engineers.

There's actually quite a lot of competition within EU, and France is not too shameful in that competition. It's hard to compete with London which is undoubtedly the #1 tech hub in Europe, but aside from that, Paris is top notch.

Also, you're begging the question.

I would still pick Berlin or Amsterdam over France. Maybe even Sweden or Finland because of the average English language level spoken in those countries even though the startup scene there is smaller than Paris.

France, or Paris? The joke my former (Parisian) co-worker used to tell was that he missed everything about Paris except the Parisians. I've heard nice things about Lyon: Largish city, easily accessible, and not full of Parisians.

Lyon? Pft, go to Grenoble. Friendly city, techies everywhere, mountain activities year-round, and it's not full of Lyonais ;)

(it was the classic regional thing: when we saw a car with a '69 license plate, we'd grumble ;p)

I could say the same about San Francisco and I lived there for a couple of decades. It is insanely crowded now with Uber drivers cutting through neighborhoods obeying their GPS overlord.

As for Paris, I love Paris but then I'd have a hard time getting work done there. Being near would be enough. I worked in Milan and Geneva and would take the train into Paris for the weekend but not for work.

and bad internet.

I'd say both. Sure there are other large cities in France but for tech I don't think that other cities have anything interesting to offer.

Yep, that's a valid point.

Plus employee welfare in France is ridiculous, ultimately harmful to their economy..

We've actually had this welfare for 70 years, and the harm was supposed to come any minute now for all this time. Ultimately, its demise is likely going to come from the propaganda against it rather from it actually being a problem.

Who says you haven't seen harm? You're erecting a straw-man.

Also, you have to factor in that when the coffers are empty, France may be more willing to sell weapons abroad... So maybe it's not France that sees that harm.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150503-arms-sales-becoming-fran...

Ok, is there some French Defamation League, downvote-brigade choosing to censor realities it dislikes, rather than respond?

I note I have down-voted responses to replies that do not have further responses. Hence, from my point of view, it seems when the argument got difficult, down-voting was resorted to..

note: this comment was also down-voted within 5 minutes, again without comment. Those who never comment, never run the risk of malicious down-votes.

To clarify, as I just realised that the above is ambiguous:

> I note I have down-voted responses to replies that do not have further responses

by "have" I mean, I have received down-votes, not I have down-voted them.

Even if what you said was true, what would be the point of a strong economy if people cannot have healthcare? I'd rather have a less strong economy and better health for everyone.

Not surprisingly, it helps the economy: people dont lose their savings, jobs and houses when they get sick in Europe.

I didn't say "they can't have healthcare". I'm talking about employment.

> I'd rather have a less strong economy

There are plenty of countries/citizens that can't dictate what they want.

Do competing developing countries have this choice? Why not?

because London is sat next door with considerably higher salaries, and everyone there speaks English

not to mention setting up a company costs £14, 20% corporation tax (dropping to 17%), tax back for individuals investing in SEIS companies (which is easy for a firm apply for), and R&D tax credits

>because London is sat next door with considerably higher salaries, and everyone there speaks English

That's a bigger deal than it might seem, even if you're recruiting from countries that aren't nominally Anglophone.

If you pick a random engineer in, say, China, there's a lot higher probability that the engineer will speak English than French.

English also opens up India, where most educated people have studied English, and English is actually one of the official languages.

French is only common in countries where French is an official language, most of which have small populations and/or not much of a tech scene.

Because those of us in say, Berlin, are doing our damnedest to encourage them here, where we need them for our engineering teams?

Why would France chase an engineer in Germany? That has to be considerably more expensive then acquiring talent from abroad.

Just eyeballing this would indicate going after a German or Fin would likely cost more, because 1. They have similar programs, 2. They don't care about Visas and therefore are less likely to be invested in being or staying in France long-term. If France gives me a visa you can be sure I'm there for more than just my business. 3. Language. 270+ million people speak French, so why not pull from countries and cultures that have some shared history and association.

Seems to me this makes way more sense for France than chasing down Germans, Dutch, Fins or anyone else local.

> France can't even retain its own engineers.

I confirm!

Leaving the country = Best decision in my life :D

I've worked with a number of folks from France in Montreal and they all say the same kinds of things.

I had chalked it up to some kind of national self-deprecation that is the pride and birthright of true French people :)

So you spoke only to French people having left the country, who, obviously, do not regret having left, but to no one happy to have stayed...

Does it really matter what we've done? We're both just rationalizing our positions ;)

Interesting. I live there and frequently joke about the 'frenchtech' with colleagues. Sadly, in our experience, french companies are very slow to adopt new technologies.

There are of course some exceptions, but right now I plan to try to move to the USA.

What's "currently inflicting generational economic damage on themselves"?

Would you do an ELI5?

Brexit!

When the Prime Minister was asked what this means, she replied with "Brexit means Brexit." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36782922

When people have asked specific questions like "am I going to be able to continue to live here?" or "am I going to continue to receive scientific funding that is distributed by the EU?" or "how is this going to affect my business?", they haven't recieved answers.

In the words of Douglas Adams, "This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

Ah, got it.

Sorry, I didn't know what you were referring to.

:-)

Why would they get answers? They might ask well as if any particular stock is going to go up or down.

> When people have asked specific questions like "am I going to be able to continue to live here?" ... they haven't recieved answers.

the UK Government is has stated it will guarantee the right for EU citizens to remain, if the same right is given to Britons in rEU, however the European Union refuses to engage on the issue ("no negotiation without notification")

It most certainly has not: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/09/uk-eu-citize...

That article doesn't say what you apparently think. Just like blibble, I have to ask if you read the first line.

"Home Office says in letter that it cannot give unilateral assurances until status of Britons in other EU countries is protected"

(emphasis mine)

have you read the first line?

> Home Office says in letter that it cannot give unilateral assurances until status of Britons in other EU countries is protected

Then maybe they should not exit the union? The brits have to come with all the answer, and can expect no help being given since they are the ones breaking up the relationship.

I cannot quite understand the thinking behind this comment (even if I'm in a country staying in the union).

It appears that some people in the union want to retaliate to the British for wanting to leave the union and thus insulting the honour of Juncker et al. They are even ready to shoot their own foot in retaliation, instead of just accepting that Britain leaves and life goes on, and new agreements are made, and trade goes on based on new agreements, for mutual benefit.

Most assuredly the relationship of Britain and EU will have to be formed based on proposals and answers from both sides. It would be really, really strange if EU could make general schemes of preferential trade with Cuba and South Sudan but not Britain, out of sheer malice.

Well we accept that UK leaves. UK now have to accept to leave the EU market. No issues just clarifications on accountablilities.

My guess: Unreflected "Brexit" bashing.

I don't think that's a proper topic for HN though.

They're referring to the UK/Brexit. There's a lot of opinions and some decently complex economics involved, but for a short summary, Brexit created economic uncertainty which acts as a general damper on business investment/growth, and if/when it's actually completed it will complicate foreign investment from elsewhere in Europe.

Yes, as others have pointed out, I was referring to Brexit, which has created a lot of uncertainty for those wanting to start or grow a business (and others, too).