There's actually quite a lot of competition within EU, and France is not too shameful in that competition. It's hard to compete with London which is undoubtedly the #1 tech hub in Europe, but aside from that, Paris is top notch.

Also, you're begging the question.

I would still pick Berlin or Amsterdam over France. Maybe even Sweden or Finland because of the average English language level spoken in those countries even though the startup scene there is smaller than Paris.

France, or Paris? The joke my former (Parisian) co-worker used to tell was that he missed everything about Paris except the Parisians. I've heard nice things about Lyon: Largish city, easily accessible, and not full of Parisians.

Lyon? Pft, go to Grenoble. Friendly city, techies everywhere, mountain activities year-round, and it's not full of Lyonais ;)

(it was the classic regional thing: when we saw a car with a '69 license plate, we'd grumble ;p)

I could say the same about San Francisco and I lived there for a couple of decades. It is insanely crowded now with Uber drivers cutting through neighborhoods obeying their GPS overlord.

As for Paris, I love Paris but then I'd have a hard time getting work done there. Being near would be enough. I worked in Milan and Geneva and would take the train into Paris for the weekend but not for work.

and bad internet.

I'd say both. Sure there are other large cities in France but for tech I don't think that other cities have anything interesting to offer.

Yep, that's a valid point.

Plus employee welfare in France is ridiculous, ultimately harmful to their economy..

We've actually had this welfare for 70 years, and the harm was supposed to come any minute now for all this time. Ultimately, its demise is likely going to come from the propaganda against it rather from it actually being a problem.

Who says you haven't seen harm? You're erecting a straw-man.

Also, you have to factor in that when the coffers are empty, France may be more willing to sell weapons abroad... So maybe it's not France that sees that harm.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150503-arms-sales-becoming-fran...

Ok, is there some French Defamation League, downvote-brigade choosing to censor realities it dislikes, rather than respond?

I note I have down-voted responses to replies that do not have further responses. Hence, from my point of view, it seems when the argument got difficult, down-voting was resorted to..

note: this comment was also down-voted within 5 minutes, again without comment. Those who never comment, never run the risk of malicious down-votes.

To clarify, as I just realised that the above is ambiguous:

> I note I have down-voted responses to replies that do not have further responses

by "have" I mean, I have received down-votes, not I have down-voted them.

Even if what you said was true, what would be the point of a strong economy if people cannot have healthcare? I'd rather have a less strong economy and better health for everyone.

Not surprisingly, it helps the economy: people dont lose their savings, jobs and houses when they get sick in Europe.

I didn't say "they can't have healthcare". I'm talking about employment.

> I'd rather have a less strong economy

There are plenty of countries/citizens that can't dictate what they want.

Do competing developing countries have this choice? Why not?

because London is sat next door with considerably higher salaries, and everyone there speaks English

not to mention setting up a company costs £14, 20% corporation tax (dropping to 17%), tax back for individuals investing in SEIS companies (which is easy for a firm apply for), and R&D tax credits

>because London is sat next door with considerably higher salaries, and everyone there speaks English

That's a bigger deal than it might seem, even if you're recruiting from countries that aren't nominally Anglophone.

If you pick a random engineer in, say, China, there's a lot higher probability that the engineer will speak English than French.

English also opens up India, where most educated people have studied English, and English is actually one of the official languages.

French is only common in countries where French is an official language, most of which have small populations and/or not much of a tech scene.

Because those of us in say, Berlin, are doing our damnedest to encourage them here, where we need them for our engineering teams?

Why would France chase an engineer in Germany? That has to be considerably more expensive then acquiring talent from abroad.

Just eyeballing this would indicate going after a German or Fin would likely cost more, because 1. They have similar programs, 2. They don't care about Visas and therefore are less likely to be invested in being or staying in France long-term. If France gives me a visa you can be sure I'm there for more than just my business. 3. Language. 270+ million people speak French, so why not pull from countries and cultures that have some shared history and association.

Seems to me this makes way more sense for France than chasing down Germans, Dutch, Fins or anyone else local.

> France can't even retain its own engineers.

I confirm!

Leaving the country = Best decision in my life :D

I've worked with a number of folks from France in Montreal and they all say the same kinds of things.

I had chalked it up to some kind of national self-deprecation that is the pride and birthright of true French people :)

So you spoke only to French people having left the country, who, obviously, do not regret having left, but to no one happy to have stayed...

Does it really matter what we've done? We're both just rationalizing our positions ;)