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Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by conanbatt on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:23PM (#12895270)
That surely sounds like a negotiation tactic was played on you. "I cant give you a raise without taking it from someone else" or "It's out of my hands" are cut and dry sales tactics.

I am a bit pejorative to that tactic because if answered correctly, it actually harms the salesman: proclaiming you cant give X salaries means that they dont respect market rates and thus an employee is incentivized to leave to someone that does. Their inability to give raises is a showing of weakness not of strength.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by JustSomeNobody on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:41PM (#12895434)
Sure it's a weakness, but they (management) don't care. If the developer leaves, they'll hire another and in the mean time the remaining devs get to pick up the slack. It's actually a convenient excuse for the schedule slipping; they blame it on the developer who left because he "wasn't a team player", even though management knows the real reason is because they simply don't ... know ... how ... to ... manage.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by kasey_junk on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:56PM (#12896409)
I can assure you as a (reluctant) manager I definitely care. Its literally the only reason I'm management. I'm also constantly having discussions with the people who generally make these kind of broad decisions about how unrealistic their decision making processes are. I tend to start those conversations with some variant on "it doesn't matter what you say the raise limits are for a person, the market sets those things and the market right now says you're wrong".

It turns out that deciding what a software developer is worth is a very challenging proposition because deciding which ones are good is an open problem. Probably the central open problem in our industry today. But salary conversations are largely not about that. In sufficiently large organizations they are about how well you, or your manager if they are good, play the game, and in smaller ones its about having the cash flow to back up outstanding liabilities.

In any case, I think its fair to characterize these approaches as a tactic, whether its a negotiation tactic or a real cost limitation varies from organization to organization but its not the employees job to worry about that. If you are in a good organization they are constantly making the value proposition to the company make sense, if not they aren't and you shouldn't feel guilty about either asking for more pay or leaving if it isn't provided.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by hvidgaard on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:56AM (#12898448)
> it doesn't matter what you say the raise limits are for a person, the market sets those things and the market right now says you're wrong

This is very common. They often justify it with "In this company we're not paying as much, but we have greater freedom/cooler tech/<other benefit>". Well good for you. We have already established that we're a good fit, but I'm not working for 20% less than I can across the street.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by kasey_junk on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @05:19AM (#12899033)
I don't think there is anything wrong with justifying a lower pay rate that way. I have definitely taken lower paying jobs for those very reasons. When you are making that value proposition you accept that some potential employees you'll miss out on because the money is not there.

The problematic behavior is when the people setting the pay bands get the value proposition wrong or they think they are paying market when they are not.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by reitanqild on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @05:39AM (#12899135)
Well, ATM I tell everyone that unless they add 15% to my current salary I won't even listen; I love the place I work ATM, they have been consistently nice for 18 months straight and I actually enjoy work.

I also have an OK salary so this is partially about reducing risk and partially about giving something back.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by madeofpalk on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @06:53AM (#12899495)
They can try and justify it, but as it turns out I can't pay the rent with "greater freedom".
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by crdoconnor on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @09:29AM (#12900455)
IME that's usually a lie. Worse working conditions almost always correlated with lower pay.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by conanbatt on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:41PM (#12895908)
Replace-ability is actually a solid negotiation tactic, but that's not the same as intransigence regarding budget.

The characterization of management as incompetents backastabbers is as childish as the one that says employees are lazy bums who should be grateful of their salary.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by dasil003 on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:05PM (#12896460)
A million times this. The insidious part is that if you come up in that kind of management culture, it destroys your motivation and ethics to where you actually become a bad employee. You will then be less hirable by good companies, and hence the vicious cycle. It's really a type of abusive relationship.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @10:49AM (#12901151)
You're correct. But it has been cultivated from seeing too many good engineers laid off due to bad management. Bad management who get to keep their jobs.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by dwightgunning on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:02PM (#12895623)
The type of company and management I'd recommend people strive to work with prefers to retain good staff rather than hire fresh.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by cormacrelf on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:15PM (#12897052)
Hiring itself and losses from going without are very expensive, I find it weird that any company wouldn't rather retain. I wouldn't ever be surprised that hiring cost $10k all up.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Taylor_OD on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:31PM (#12897134)
If a company only used external recruiters for any position above 100K it's going to cost them 15K+. More likely 25K. Now if they try on their own as well by posting jobs, hiring internal recruiters, network... Hiring is expensive.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by rezistik on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:33PM (#12897139)
Recruiters take up to 20% of first year salary or more plus the time to retrain, a 10k dev is a cheap one.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by jabzd on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @08:25AM (#12899992)
In Chicago, some recruiters have started asking for 30%. I've refused to work with these companies but rates are definitely going up.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by user5994461 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:23PM (#12903144)
London here. Thought it was 10-20%

I asked a recruiter that placed me and he said he's usually taking 20-35% :D

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by lgas on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:28PM (#12895814)
Great, that's win. The company gets another interchangeable cog that they value equally and the developer that leaves gets to work someplace better.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by jimbokun on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:37PM (#12895877)
I notice you don't mention increasing revenue or cutting costs anywhere in your analysis.

Which is exactly why any developer in that situation needs to get out as soon as they can find a better position. Such a company is obviously not going to prosper in the long run.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by user5994461 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:47PM (#12895950)
> Manager: "I cant give you a raise [...]"

The employee got an offer the next week somewhere else for +30%.

He gave his resignation letter to the manager right away. It didn't even occur to him to ask the company to make a counter offer (even though they may have).

[Just to say that sometimes, negotiation strategies can backfire, but managers don't seem to realize (or care about) that.]

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by nikatwork on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:43PM (#12896340)
Being in that situation is so satisfying.

  Boss:      HR won't give me the money for your raise. 
  Employee:  I quit. I've been offered more money elsewhere. 
  Boss:      No wait actually I can get that extra money
  Employee:  Too late, kthxbai
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by jaimex2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:18PM (#12896824)
+1 Never take a counter offer.

You'll get more pay but you're stuck in the same company run by the same narrow minds.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Tom1971 on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:58PM (#12897780)
That's a rather narrow minded way to thinking about the issue.

I've accepted a counter offer twice, and both times I was glad that I did.

There could be many other reasons for a company not paying what you can get somewhere else. A very trivial one is the yearly update cycle: that may happen in January whereas you get an offer in June. Companies that hire don't align to the schedule of your current one.

And hiring companies inherently know asking somebody to quit and somewhere else carries a risk that needs some amount of kind of reward.

Hell, how can one personally even know what he/she is worth? There are so many factors at play. It'd be narrow minded to expect pricing perfection on something nobody really can get right.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by nowbacktowork on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:31PM (#12897381)
Yes, but these are the narrow minds you know. Be sure there will be a new/different set of narrow minds at the next company.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by meric on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:34PM (#12896902)
In my experience narrow minds can be expanded.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by MaulingMonkey on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:53PM (#12897225)
Sure. If you need to seek out an offer every time you want to expand them, it's going to take a bit of work however.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by edem on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @03:53AM (#12898664)
All narrow minds can be expanded in theory. With an axe for example.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by ionised on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @11:16AM (#12901416)
Plus they'll likely be looking to drop you in favour of someone they can play less soon after.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by user5994461 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:01PM (#12902962)
I'd like to strongly opposite to this advise.

You've got 2 companies you can work at. You should go to the one you prefer to work with. Maybe that's the one you already are in, maybe not.

Do what's best for yourself.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by acjohnson55 on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:32PM (#12897386)
Never say never.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by tormeh on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @08:25AM (#12899995)
Some employers have special exemptions for counter-offers; your boss literally gets more money for your raise if you have a competing offer.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by tuananh on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:34AM (#12898164)
Not always the case. I did accept counter-offer and it worked out pretty well.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by AcerbicZero on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:29PM (#12895322)
I've worked at a number of places which had this basic policy. Upper management gives middle management a % of their budget for merit increases, and its up to the middle manager to break it up how they see fit.

While you can certainly try to negotiate increases in compensation outside of this, I've never seen it happen successfully.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by byoung2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:45PM (#12895466)
I've never seen it happen successfully.

I've done it at least half a dozen times in my career. I was told "the maximum we can give is a $7k raise since there is a fixed pool for raises in the department."

I said if I quit and you have to replace me, not only will you have to hire 2 devs to replace me (as I pulled dev and sysops duty) and pay them market salaries, you will have to pay a recruiter 20-30%. They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making, plus some other perks. They not only matched, they also matched for other devs on the team.

Do not fall for that fixed budget BS...the pie can always get bigger.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by redwards510 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:52PM (#12895988)
> They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making,

Getting a counteroffer is not the same as what the OP is suggesting. Using another job offer as a leverage for a raise is not recommended by most experts. Just google "Should i accept a counteroffer?". Mainly because you create bad blood at your current employer and you have to be ready to follow through on your threat. Also, that employer you just pushed right to the edge of hiring you is going to be mad you were just using them. There are entire top 10 lists about why it is a bad idea!

I have pleaded the entire "it would cost you thousands to train a new guy, and you will have to pay him to start what i'm asking for right now!" line to bosses before. They are unmoved by financial arguments. It's as if management just decided to take a hard line against "persuasive" raises across the board, nevermind the damage it costs to lose talent.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by toennisforst on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:29PM (#12896588)
Of the top five results Google gives me, all are by recruitment agencies who have a strong incentive not to loose candidates and their commission.

The notion that accepting counteroffers is always hurtful to your career is contested to say the least: See this [1] HN discussion from about a month ago.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624112

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by op00to on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:56PM (#12896984)
When considering this tactic, ask yourself one question: "Do I work for psycopaths, or for (relatively) rational human beings?" If rational, go ahead and let them know the market rate of your labor by showing a competing offer, knowing full well that you're ready to take it and move on. It's only business. If you work for psychopaths, just take the offer and leave because fuck that shit.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Whitestrake on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:24PM (#12897642)
I feel like any company large enough to have a significant HR department won't count as a "rational human being". They'll probably fall into the "psychopath" category by virtue of dispassionately and emotionlessly assessing how much of a liability you are to them if you're willing to demand they make counter-offers.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Tom1971 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:05AM (#12897816)
In a large HR department, chances are you're dealing with somebody for whom you're just a number instead of somebody has a personal grudge.

Nothing personal, just business is the attitude you want when handling something as trivial as a salary negotiation.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by marvin on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:49AM (#12898420)
Being a psychopath isn't about holding a grudge, it's about acting in pure self-interest with no regard for the effect on others. So psychopathy is a good way to describe an HR dept that does its intended job.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Whitestrake on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @05:15AM (#12899016)
Exactly - given the prevalence of "psychopath" in common conversation as violent, unreasonable etc., perhaps I should have specified further or instead used "sociopath".
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by kobeya on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @06:19AM (#12899308)
That is not what psychopath means. Maybe you are confusing with sociopath?
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by mcv on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @06:47AM (#12899464)
As far as I know, the two are synonymous or nearly so.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by JamesBarney on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:21PM (#12896547)
Just as a head up, most of the people who write answers to "Should I accept a counteroffer?" are recruiters who next mortgage payment is contingent on you not accepting the counteroffer.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Can_Not on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:10PM (#12896485)
I've read that, are you sure it's not a scare tactic by recruiters?
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by ap3 on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:50PM (#12897465)
Why would there be bad blood if you decide to stay?

If you can bring in more than you make they will pay - management doesn't care about another 10k. They know what the replacement cost is.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by _puk on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:51PM (#12895525)
Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone?
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by byoung2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:04PM (#12895643)
Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone?

It worked out well for all parties, depending on how you look at it.

Management was a little out of touch with market rate salaries, since they weren't tech guys (once the CEO referred to engineering as "black magic" since he didn't understand it). So while they were shocked at an offer I was able to get in a few days, they understood that engineers are in an enviable position in the job market.

This was 2013 and I was making $110k in Los Angeles, and they were offering $117k. The counteroffer was for $130k plus perks valued at about $10k (401k plus match, extra week of vacation, etc). So they matched at $140k.

I stayed there and after a year I got a promotion to director of engineering and a raise to $155k + up to $25k bonus. A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k.

During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue.

In December 2015 I left to work as a remote freelancer, which would have happened eventually regardless.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by jimbokun on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:42PM (#12895914)
Thank you for including real numbers. Helps understand what's possible or realistic.

"During the time after I pulled my stunt I expanded on a pet project using sentiment analysis and that became the core of a new product that is now 40% of their revenue."

This is the most important number you give! Very important to understand the need to point to concrete revenue generated (or costs cut) when negotiating a raise. Otherwise, management will probably just call your bluff.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by nikatwork on Monday November 07, 2016 @06:50PM (#12896381)
> management will probably just call your bluff.

You don't need some enormous revenue or productivity win on the board to ask for a raise (although it helps). It just needs to be less hassle for them to pay you a raise than to replace you. In most cases it's really that simple.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by bcbrown on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:00AM (#12898027)
> A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k.

What was your negotiating strategy here? Did you just say "I'm going to make the bonus anyway, please let's just write it in now", or was it more "I might leave if we can't work this out"?

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by branchless on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:59PM (#12895587)
That's the puppy. You have to have a card, you have to be willing to play it, and they have to believe you are willing to play it. And they have to value you. That is base camp for negotiating.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by cel1ne on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:01PM (#12895607)
Same here. If you're somewhat good, getting a new developer will always be expensive and it is a risk for the company.

The new developer needs to familiarise himself with everything and what happens if he's actually worse than you?

Of course no sane boss will ever tell you this. Just nag them and don't accept "no" for an answer.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by byoung2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:09PM (#12895673)
As director of engineering, I gladly gave generous raises to retain people, because it cost way more in lost productivity to read resumes, interview candidates, and onboard new devs, not to mention the $30k check you have to write to the recruiter. And you're right, one bad hire can be disastrous...apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Can_Not on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:30PM (#12896591)
> apparently the guy that replaced me wanted to prove his value by rewriting the whole architecture. So they spent a whole year doing that which I'm sure is much cleaner than the original under the hood, but to the end user, it is not apparent

Anecdote: We had a guy show up, he claimed that we had to do a rewrite. We spent 2 years catching up to the base product. Complete waste of time, had to fire him 1 year into the rewrite. Gained no value from it. He was simply too arrogant, vain, and/or unskilled to bother to read other people's code.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by zo1 on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:50PM (#12896689)
What position did he come in as? Seems awfully odd to have a new-hire making such a decision. From the sounds of it, he effectively tied up resources for almost a year before being pushed out?

There are two problems there, from what I can ascertain:

1. The guy wanting to rewrite your product.

2. Management that allowed him to do so without proper motivation and/or cost-benefit analysis.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Can_Not on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:27PM (#12897121)
I was a noob at the time and had assumed he was a minimum of 1 year experience better than me and really knew what he was talking about. He used great business terms and convinced the non-techies, too. In retrospect, it's a very obvious mistake. He convinced us the open source project that we based our business on for the 6 months before hiring him had limitations, but it turns out that the open source project was packed full of features, well polished, well designed, easily extensible, etc. and we spent 2 years catching up to where that product was, just in a different framework.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by edem on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:14AM (#12898767)
In 2011 we had to rewrite a backend which was architected by a guy who left after his plan didn't work which was effectively a rewrite of the rewrite. I left the company in 2013 and in 2014 they hired him at my new workplace (we had no contact before and this decision was oblivious for me). I left that company when they put him as team lead on my team and several years later I heard from an ex-colleague that they dumped a backend which was architected by this guy.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by radicsge on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:55AM (#12898441)
Very similar story to mine! :) I was hired together with a guy like this, knew all the fancy keywords and didnt want to touch the old code. We were lucky to refuse him, but it was just by chance. He left the company few months later.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by tjtrapp on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:24AM (#12898814)
"Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make:

They decided to rewrite the code from scratch."

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by usrusr on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:47AM (#12898915)
It's always a risk, but it comes with the tiny chance that the new hire will be the guy who designs the next iPod.

From the employer point of view, keeping someone aboard who is willing to jump on every opportunity for leverage is also a risk. You might want to have the fiercest of negotiators in sales, but the same thing is not a trait you want to see in developers. Bad for their earnings, but that's how it is. The most capable developer in the world would not be a someone you want as an employee if you suspect that he could use his powers for extortion tactics. (It's bad enough already that the worst developers become "irreplaceable" without even trying)

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by cgore on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:51PM (#12895519)
It's often a bit true though. I bet your direct manager didn't have that authority himself and had to go up higher and justify it to either his boss or his boss's boss.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by byoung2 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:11PM (#12895695)
That is true but in this last case I became that manager and suddenly there was no such set pool for raises.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by Spooky23 on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:31PM (#12895828)
It's just reflective of the level of trust invested in the business leadership.

Bigger orgs manage compensation seperately and usually only gives management limited levers to pull to affect changes. They do this to manage costs, avoid internal competition and because they don't trust line management.

Workers are a cog in the wheel in these orgs, and treating shiny cogs better is ultimately worse for the org.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by manyxcxi on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:03PM (#12897549)
It's not a tactic. It's, in fact how a LOT of companies do it. As the guy in charge of doling out my pool of raise money it has absolutely been a zero sum game everywhere I've done it.

If our across the board raise rate is 3% and I give you 5%, I had to give someone else 1%. In practice, I would like take 0.25-1% from more people to spread the pain out some.

If there was someone performing at a level that made me feel it was okay not to give them a raise, I might grab it all from them. But doing this pretty much means they will leave in 3-6mos or I will wind up letting them go sooner. They were likely already on a PIP or we've had serious performance discussions throughout the year.

It's not a tactic, it's simply the way it is. not giving a raise to someone is a signal that puts the wheels in motion for them to be gone. Your relationship with them will be tested, likely broken. If I want to keep everyone on my team, barring extraordinary circumstances, I need to generally even them out. Evened out seems to settle between 2.75 and 3.25%.

What most people don't say is that a good company will have set aside a pool of money for retention. It could be a salary correction because someone got in cheap and we recognize that we need to adjust them up more than a simple raise- most of the time it's the emergency money I can go to the CEO and beg for in order to match that offer you got if I really want to keep you and think you'll be happy to stay.

Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by rifung on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:46AM (#12898210)
I don't know if you can assume it's a negotiation tactic. My friend is a manager for Amazon and he wasn't able to give people raises like he wanted to. I don't remember if he couldn't give them a raise or couldn't give them as much as he wanted to, but either way, it's definitely a thing in some places.
Re:Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing ... by LoSboccacc on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:20AM (#12898326)
That's still a negotiation script, just one set from above the first line manager.

Double effective because now first line are insulated from negotiations and grunts don't know who are the negotiatiors they need to talk to.