Not that I regret my choices, but that 13 is just a little too young to be career-oriented, and 16 is probably the bare minimum. I was into computers at that age, but if my decisions were based on profitability or professional viability they would have been very different.

Don't underestimate the role of a crappy jobs and bad bosses, either. Hard to say you'd want anyone to experience that intentionally, but a wide perspective is priceless and can't be taught by explanation alone.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it made a huge difference to my life choices either (you can learn a lot about crappy jobs and bad bosses in a couple of weeks' "work experience")

Only adults think that any such thing as child-like innocence actually exists. Children see and hear everything.

As someone who's done his fair share of shit jobs before working in the relative comfort of the "tech industry", this was a valuable lesson in what is the reality of any work relationship (that is: "I work x hours and you give me x monies", that's really all there is to it...).

Lots of tech companies wouldnt get away with their "We're all a big family so you have to do unpaid overtime because we're all a family" bullshit if their employees went through dishwashing or other menial jobs before.

(Simplifying a lot for emphasis, but you get my drift)

I'm not saying you're wrong. Sounds like a pretty good idea, even. _Please be damn sure you know what you're doing._ And I'm here if you've got questions.

Sorry you've had a rough go of it nfd.

I’ve come to think that going or not going to school is unlikely to be the deciding factor, and it’s rather up to parents and the overall environment. Homeschooling or sending your kid to school—neither seems ‘easier’ by itself, they just pose somewhat different sets of challenges to parents. The answer probably depends on given school system, the specific school, parents’ and kid’s personalities, etc.

In other words, one can go to school—and be bullied w/o the skill to handle it and w/o parental notice due to neglect, or grow up dysfunctional/struggling due to whatever else unhealthy family circumstance such as NPD of a parent due to them being an object of childhood abuse, etc.; and one can also be homeschooled—and be adequately prepared by parents, lose less time doing boring things, and have the necessary social interaction with siblings and friends. Now switch that around and there are indeed a lot of things that can go wrong with homeschooling, and an attentive parent can be able to help their kid deal with school just as well.

IMO it's more common among farmers and blue collar businesses than SV types.

They paid for my college which I wasted by going to vocational schools. I eventually paid my own way through university for a CS degree. Then I moved back closer to home and "work from home" mostly.

The public school system is more about socializing than gaining knowledge. But how could a person like you understand that, when you think that: "I think having them make $60 an hour while their friends make nothing will be a large deciding factor" is a deciding factor.

Also, I've never heard or seen any kid that listens more to their teachers than their parents. That says more about the parents than it says about the teachers or the school system.

You are truly a dangerous person.

And by the way, who's preventing you to teach your children to identify(and thus ignore) the flaws of this system?

What you're suggesting is the nuclear option and I don't see any reason for that.

It seems to me that homeschooling is a great option for kids well away from the mean of the 'bell curve' - in either direction. It's difficult for the schools to properly handle kids that are far from normal. So for the kid who just needs to learn life skills as well as the kid who is taking the college physics class at 15 years old home schooling seems like a reasonable choice- if the parents are up to it.

I think tokenadult has a lot of interesting insight on this subject.

Also, why should it be only the one or the other? These are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I went to school and I was homeschooled at the same time.

Removing regular school from the equation is almost always a bad idea.

What do you mean 'ignore'? If children are forced to go to school, they can hardly 'ignore' that they are being bullied or 'just go away' if a teachers is incompetent.

Most children are perfectly capable of identifying the flaws, they are just impotent and can't do anything about it which causes additional misery.

If they don't know how to handle those things then maybe: 1) they should have thought better before deciding to have children and 2) seek help on how to raise them?

We used to live in the fucking jungle and you think that today's society is cruel? What's the matter with you people?

True. Some parents see those problems and deal with them by, for example, homeschooling their children.

Homeschooling doesn't strike as a thing an 'incapable' parent would choose to do. It takes deliberate thought and lots of work.

Ideally, the parents will choose the method that lets their child learn most effectively. In reality, some of them will make bad choices and stunt their children's education. Which sucks, but life is not fair.

Strange comment. I'm thinking of all the girls I knew in public high school that would cut themselves. The boys did other kinds of self harm; severe drug use, and if they couldn't get drugs, they'd go huff gasoline.

What I expect from my children is that they do a few hours of work in the morning, a few chores after lunch, and then they can do what ever they want the rest of the day (like help me at work if they want since I work from home). Is that such mental anguish?

Of course none of my kids are over 5, so this is all my pipe dream. Might work, might not.

As far as socialization, that is a human trait. Some have more of it, and some have less. Environment does play a small factor. But thinking your child will get great social skills by hanging out with teenagers is...unfortunate.

If you're still in that community, please get out. It'll change your perspective when you realize that your experiences are not the norm by a long shot.

My daughter goes to public school. Her experience couldn't be further from my memories. Granted it's only elementary school, but there is no bullying. There's no fighting. Kids form their own groups like everywhere else. But, they live and let live. The school has good academics, a theater program, and a homegrown after school program for parents who can't afford a private one and and can't be there for pick up when school ends.

There's a wide spectrum of public school experiences. But, the ones my daughter is having are more the norm than your own.

I only have in support anecdotes, but I've met several people who were homeschooled, and they had a really hard adjustment to high school / college. All of them ended up being loners because of how different they were from everyone and how hard it was for them to relate. In the opposite direction, the person with the most impressive social skills I know is someone that had to overcome a childhood of poor social skill development and consciously train for it as an adult.

Honestly, as someone who is mediocre at socializing, I really wish I had more of it growing up (I lived in a neighborhood without other kids). It's a pain to improve as an adult.

We get it, you had some bad experiences and now what? You're going to isolate them from the rest of the world? And when did that ever work?

> As far as socialization, that is a human trait. Some have more of it, and some have less

Well, yeah if you make them anti-social, I suppose they're going to have less of it.

> and then they can do what ever they want the rest of the day (like help me at work if they want since I work from home)

What?!! Why would a child want to help you with your work in their free time? Are you serious? A child must play, play play!! Preferably with other children of their own age. Please talk to a professional about those issues. This is not even remotely a good way to raise your children.

And socializing, give me a break. Looks like you were never a victim of bullying, discrimination or racket.

And by the way public education was institutionalized even in the Ancient Greece era.

So what about bullying and discrimination? This is your response? Close your eyes and hide? The only kids that I saw getting bullied were weak kids whose parents were overprotecting them. Instead of encouraging them to join a team sport(or a similar activity), they were trying to steer them away from being exposed to social activities. You see their kids were special, so they shouldn't mingle with the "plebe". It didn't work out well for them.

I'm not saying that bullying is not something you shouldn't be aware of, but this is not how you deal with it.

Then you have e.g. Chicago Public Schools, which range from comparable at the very top end to "not particularly inspiring" to "attending this school is of comparable danger to being deployed to a war zone."

I was privileged enough to grow up someplace that allowed me to go to a great public school. It's a great city by many measures, but poor in public transport, affordable housing, and working-class jobs.

The OP has the means to pay their children nearly double the national average income (calculated on an hourly basis).

So, yes, in this case, the OP more than likely does have the means to move.

Or, the OP also has the means to be actively involved in the local schools and try to make them less awful.

My negative opinions on home-schoolers are based mostly on personal experience with home-schoolers in my area. They generally fall into one of two categories: - fanatical Christians (public school is full of heathens and rapists etc) - fanatical libertarians (I got mine, so fuck you)

You should try raising a family in Southern California. See what kind of school district you can afford to live in. See if you still believe that "you can move to whatever school district you want to."

Oy.

Those will not be a career path for much longer.

> Conversely, I fully expect to start "outsourcing" my web dev work to my children when they are 13.

Child labor got outlawed long ago, which is one of the reasons a lot of countries have mandatory education. High school is about much more than learning programming language or marketable skills, that's what you have secondary education for. Social interaction and other related skills are one of the big take-aways from regular school that are hard to replicate, also, that big bad world will still be out there when your children reach adult age and they then won't be prepared to interface with that.

Maybe consider moving to a place where schools are not useless, filthy, full of drugs and gangs if you really wish to solve this. And if the high schools are full of filth, drugs and gangs today what guarantees do you have that the community college won't be the same?

(And if the community college can keep it's grounds clean today, why can't the highschools?)

How can you tell?

EDIT: Swift being dependent for the most part on someone's ecosystem - maybe, but Python?

> work

Yes, child labor.

You don't want them to make friends, socialize, network with their peers? To explore their own wants and desires in the safety of a school without your constant disapproval?

You want them to spend their 20s in counselling complaining about their bizarre dad who schooled them at home and forced them to work instead of grow?

2 sides to every coin.

That is actually a marketing story, dangerous and unrealistic to believe.

Esaym is talking about teaching his kids a real skill they can use. It certainly won't override their ability to learn and persue things- it'll actually make that possible. It'll enable them to make decisions in life without having to pray they can find a way to make money, and they'll have a fundamental skill that'll help them whichever way they decide to go.

People don't generally get good jobs by their own elbow grease. They get them because of their network and connections. Your family is a huge part of that network, and passing on a skill like a trade is one of the surest ways you can ensure your children actually have a future.

I know a range of different people, none of them are programmers. Do you think only programmers make money?

I am actually shocked and disgusted by his idea of parenting. He wants to isolate them from other children and teach them one skill instead of letting them learn a range and choose.

Re-read what he said, he wants to exclude them from school and get them to work on his business from the age of 13.

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending.

I fully expect to start "outsourcing" my web dev work to my children when they are 13.

I have two young kids and let me tell you the siren song of mediocrity is strong. Everything that requires a little bit of extra effort is undercut with "Daaaaad can we watch teeveeeee instead of soccer/coloring/math/bubbles/running/programming/bicycling/gymnastics/dancing/karate/naval-frickin'-gazing?"

Obviously what the GP is saying is that he's at least /intending/ to (a) send them to private school (b) teach them a skill he thinks will give them self-confidence and the ability to value their efforts. That's it. That's all ANY parent wants.

My only real caution would be to say that I really don't expect web development to be a shockingly high paying job for my kids' lifetime. But yeah, basically you teach your kids to love solving problems and the world will be their oyster.

So the theory goes.

If your parent is a minister, you'll be helping around the church as a teenager.

Or how about the common last name 'Smith', as in 'that family of blacksmiths'?

Parents teaching their kids the family trade is as old as history. Maybe there are other ways, but to 'shock and disgust' seems a bit extreme.

Other comments have made the required comparisons to other idiotic appeals to antiquity, but there's another thing. It seems almost barbaric when we're past the time when people had almost no say in their career path to limit your children's exposure to add many ideas and experiences as you can. A farmer in the 1600's didn't have much choice, but we do now.

Let's lay it out simply: As a [whatever I am] I have the ability to teach [X]. Therefore, I will teach [X] to my children to help them be a useful member of society.

In my particular case, for example, I have the ability to teach my child about math, logic, critical thinking, problem solving, general computing, and rudimentary electrical engineering. I'll also teach them about hiking, backpacking, a love of nature, fine art, an appreciation of music and storytelling... but as far as "making a wage" skills?

I just can't teach them skills I don't have.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to teach my child how to be an extrovert, an athlete, a politician, an actor, a doctor, a singer, an agriculturist, a CEO of a major corporation... but... those are not in my skillset.

And to call this guy "a horrible-sounding parent" for doing what he should be doing just means you're not a parent.

He didn't say this anywhere in his post.

The "minority" issue you speak of is interesting. Up until 4th grade, I went to a small country school where every one was white. There was only one teacher per grade, and each grade had 15-20 kids or so. Then because my mom re-married, I moved to a more city location. It was the complete opposite. I was bullied for the next 4 years for being white...

You should acknowledge the weakness of your children's characters and that without parent's strong influence they will most likely be hype-driven, drown to many interesting but useless, maybe even damaging prospects. They will need your guidance, and hopefully you'll be able to provide a good enough one.

My dad was athletic and supported me in being a nerdy band kid programmer. I will do the same for mine. I will make sure that the school they go to is good, but I won't force them to be passionate about something by bribing them with $60/hr.

Web work pays substantially more and could entail graphic design, copy-writing, backend programming, marketing or all sorts of useful skills. I think we have this idea of the OP forcing his kids to write code in a basement and it doesn't need to be that at all.

Also written by OP, which does suggest they might not have a lot of other options

I've worked plenty of other jobs, from clerk, to auto mechanic, to IT, they'll be getting a dose of it all. This is what you do as a parent, you show your kids where you've been, what you've done, and the wrongs you've done.

Have you met a child before?

The math taught in high-school is pretty simple stuff and if we frowned upon innumeracy as much as we do illiteracy, people would just learn it. Reading is hard but we spend the time and make the students do it anyway. We don't give them the "who needs this reading crap" script.

Math skills are life skills for a thinking citizen of a democracy.

Every term I have game development students who struggle with basic arithmetic (fractions, exponents), but somehow want to make a game.

I was that kid. I went to the "best" high school in all the surrounding cities. It was a mess, sub-pair on every academic, legal, and social level. Teachers taking bribes, drugs, fights, teachers that didn't know their subjects well enough (I helped teach one class).

I dropped out and went to college.

There are many people who are doomed to stressful lives living paycheck to paycheck because early in life they didn't learn a lucrative trade and they didn't learn how to learn. Once you are out of school and have a job and maybe a family, just the day-to-day demands of living can drain most of your energy and time.

For your example, you can teach your children how to be very successful at making money and achieve an accomplished financial situation, then they still may get abused somehow through some weakness you left them out with in your parental education.

We started with Logo at 9. In 1996.

Do public schools in other countries not do this kind of stuff?

> "There currently are just over 42,000 high schools in the United States. But only 2,100 of them were certified to teach the AP computer science course in 2011"

http://www.exploringcs.org/resources/cs-statistics

edit: Wish I could find the numbers for public high schools, but I'd wager that they're much lower than 5%, with public middle schools smaller still.

Most of the schools in my area have offered some kind of technology class in middle school or high school that has basic programming modules, but only a few offer AP CS.

I remember programming a robotic arm in middle school almost 20 years ago.

And have you managed 13 year olds?

I'm sure they will be well-incentivized at $60/hr., the question is whether you will have an incentive to put up with them.

You seem to prematurely optimizing your kid's lives. It can backfire very bad. Programming or any profession in general is way lower in priority before learning Math and other stuff.

Career returns are always non linear, getting to greedy at the start can cost a lot in the long term.

While I didn't have to worry about gangs, or really even drugs in high school; for myself, and my little sister--we learned absolutely nothing in high school. Actually, I had a good biology teacher, but that's about it. My sister only achievement in high school was being voted best looking. She was there so little, I'm suprised the students noticed her.

That said, I made up everything I missed in high school, and a lot more, in two semesters at a community college. (Complete honesty. It was two semesters. I actually enjoyed school again.)

I think I'm older than a lot of you, but going to high school was a waste of time, and even left emotional scars on my own psyche? I hated high school. I hated the different groups. I hated the after school fights. I hated showing up to class tired, my skin inflamed, hormones seemingly off the charts; all to a teacher who obviously didn't care to be there.

I recall going to the school counselor, and asking to drop out. He looked at me for a few awkward seconds, and said, "------, I know it's a joke. Just finish. Get that diploma. College will be different. I give you my word. Just finish. Just show up."

Well I finished, and I'm glad I did. If I was able to do it over again, I would definetly have gone to a community college as as soon as possible though.

Community college has it's downfalls, but for myself I really enjoyed my two years there, actually 2.5 years. If you are young, and reading this, I think going to a community college is a great idea. While in that community college, your main goal should be trying to transfer into a four year college.

Yea, I know. College is a lot of bs, but this rediculious society still judges people on wether they went to college.

I see that changing though. If you are interested in computer programming; I honestly don't see the need for college, but I'm nobody. Actually, I take that back. You need a diverse backround. Some of you have parents that can point you to the right books, but I didn't.

Again, I loved going to a community college. I saved a fortune, and learned a lot.

I learnt those things, and while I really did not want to learn most of it back then, I am glad now that I did.

"Non scholae, sed vitae", as they used to say back at my school.

And even if you restrict the use of a school education to "preparing you for work", I for one did not know what I wanted to do until I was roughly 17-18. And then, I was spectacularly wrong about it and took a few years to find my calling in computers at about 22.

On the other hand, school is - let's face it - where kids learn a huge percentage of their social skills and make friends. That is not to be underestimated.

What's depressing is "parents" that think complete strangers are responsible for the upbringing of their children.

I was being nice...

Still, plenty of people make it through and go on to achieve great things. Plus, they are grounded in the realities of what is commonly referred to as the 99%

<sarcasm>"Social mobility" doesn't necessarily mean moving upwards only. Public schools therefore may indeed contribute to public mobility and even be an accelerating factor to it!</sarcasm>

The fact that the graduates of your class are still in your hometown does not really say much about social mobility, it does only about mobility.

Why is being indoctrinated by parents any better?

while parents aren't perfectly incentivized, they have a larger stake in you growing into a happy and healthy adult than teachers do

Many parents do want their children to be happy and healthy, but I believe the number who do this because they assess what their stake in "Project Children" is and conclude that their expectation value is higher with happy healthy children is vanishingly small.

Home schooling has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas ever.

At the end of the day you're placing your trust in someone. They are just going to teach your kids what they think is important. Are you not willing to have an opinion on whether they are choosing the right things to teach?

I think I heard something about how people that get a lot of expertise in one area like doctors, lawyers, programmers, tend to far overestimate their skills in unrelated things. Sounds like you and the OP fall into this logical trap.

Whether the teachers are good or have good resources or have a class too heterogeneous to teach effectively is a different matter. But people who assume they know so much more than the experts need a humility and reality check.

  "Those that can work, work. Those that can't, teach."

Parenting rights can be revoked if there is enough evidence of potential damage to be inflicted upon the subjected children. I think the same should go for a lot of other things. People should not be let to freely teach or heal or whatnot without some minimum qualification when stakes are high enough, even it it's about their own children. Not when an actual free and qualified alternative option is available. You think you know better for your children, but if your children get damaged it's the society that will support the consequences when they'll grow up. The freedom to inflict damage upon others has to be limited even when others are our own children.

There's an expectation that we are providing an education, but until our kids want to enter the system in one way or another, they won't be tested against its requirements.