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Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Afforess on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:43AM (#11126026)
To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Extremely restrictive construction laws and absurd rent controls distort the housing market, which is driving the expensive home market and massive rents. A large portion of the blame for this situation falls to the government - they wrote the laws, they built this disaster.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monkmartinez on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:02AM (#11126175)
This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't.

Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in my area better than I know my extended family. I have memorized their birthday's, the medications they should be taking, the street drugs they prefer, the kind of beer they drink, where they stash their stuff, where they have their main camp, what their childhood, and adult life were like, their medical history, what shelters they've been kicked out of and are not allowed back to... and more.

We are forced to talk with them, sometimes 3 or 4 times a shift. I lost sympathy for most of them a long time ago, that doesn't mean we treat them like sub-humans... we just have less patience with the shit they are inevitably going to give us.

Edit: here is an article specific to San Fran about EMS & the homeless: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefight...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by citizensixteen on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:21AM (#11126347)
>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"

I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skeptical at first now, he says, “It makes financial sense. That’s how I had my epiphany and was converted. You can actually save money by giving somebody some dignity and giving them a place to live.”

Medicine Hat on brink of ending homelessness

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medicine-hat-on-brink-...

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/medicine-hat-has-al...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mabbo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:29AM (#11126415)
Our super-Conservative government for the last decade (now replaced by a young, hip, Liberal one) was actually really big behind the 'housing-first' method of helping the homeless (you get an apartment, no questions asked, then we work on your drug problems, etc later), and put a lot of money towards it.

At first, this seems very socially liberal and at odds with a Conservative party kind of thing until you look at the financials and realize it actually is fiscally very conservative- it saves a ton of money on policing and medical care.

All that said, have you been to Medicine Hat? That's not a place with a very relaxed 'homeless lifestyle'. It's -15C here in Toronto today, and we're like 700km further south. In the west coast of the USA, you can survive on the street without the air itself killing you.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by themartorana on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:40AM (#11126499)
Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services.

So what's the political argument against it?

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by hluska on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:23PM (#11127454)
The political argument against HF comes down to the fact that it may not actually work very well. People opposed to HF tend to argue:

1.) HF is not effective at keeping recipients out of the criminal justice system. (This finding is controversial as, especially in Canada, 2-3 years often go by between arrest and subsequent criminal punishment.)

2.) HF creates 'slums'. (This finding is controversial as the solution is to attract a wider array of potential landlords. From a landlord's perspective, getting involved with HF is difficult as they feel that having one HF unit in a building will depress rents for the entire building.)

3.) HF is built around low quality data collection tools. HF programs always start with something called a point in time (PIT) count in which a city's homeless population is counted. PIT counts always show that homelessness is both older and whiter than frontline activists have found. This problem is highly complex and could easily turn this into a 250 page essay...:)

4.) HF is a one size fits all approach to a very complex problem. People who believe this fall into the narrative that a homeless woman with three children who lives from couch to couch is dramatically different from a homeless man who suffers from schizophrenia and pushes all of his worldly possessions in a cart. I'd argue that this is not so much a criticism as an example of ignorance - HF by its very nature recognizes that every community is different and each community must build its own program. Second, HF is built around personal relationships between recipients and advocates. The advocates are responsible for getting a particular recipient the type of help that he/she needs.

I mostly support Housing First, so I don't believe these, though #2 and #3 are definitely problems.

(source - I am an anti-poverty activist and have studied HF extensively.)

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monknomo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:37PM (#11127580)
As to point 2, if there are enough homeless people in an area to turn an apartment building into a slum, there is already a de facto slum. It's just that it's a slum made of tents under a highway, rather than in a building.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by hluska on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:35PM (#11128066)
Nicely said!

This is purely anecdotal, but in my experience, proponents of the 'HF creates slums' theory tend to fall into one of two camps:

- functionally blind

- landlords

The functionally blind (note that I'm not saying 'sight impaired...this is by design) tend to argue that homelessness is okay...as long as they can't see it. Often, they live in cities like mine (Regina, Canada) where for 3-4 months of the year, it is too cold to sleep outside. Because of this, homelessness in these cities often involves a mishmash of shelters, crashing on various couches, and sleeping in malls during the day/hanging out in coffee shops at night. The rest of the year, whether through policing or civic design, 'homelessness' consists of guerilla camping in parks and other out of the way places. HF does tend to make homelessness more visible. Programs generally start with a marketing campaign designed to attract landlords, then word gets out on which buildings house the formerly homeless.

And, that's when the functionally blind start to complain. Often, the complaints take the same form as people who protest against halfway houses opening up in their neighbourhoods. They print up flyers decrying the 'death' of their neighbourhood, and show up at city council meetings. Later, they seize onto minor crimes (ie - my sister's former roommate's cousin's veterinarian had her purse snatched two blocks from that building) to justify their beliefs.

Landlords are in a more precarious situation. Since HF does not have its own housing, it absolutely requires the support of landlords. Some HF programs are not terribly well funded so, while they guarantee that rent will be paid, they often require some form of discount to be financially feasible. That alone is a strike against them, at least from the perspective of business.

But, if you are a landlord and are willing to work with HF, you have a difficult choice. Realistically speaking, HF candidates have issues which create homelessness in the first place. Candidates often suffer from severe mental illness, chronic addiction, and health problems. They aren't always capable of basic upkeep in suites. So, do you offer up, say 15 suites in one building to the program, or do you spread the suites around multiple buildings. Some landlords have reported that the buildings that house HF candidates are more difficult to rent out and that the rent for all of the suites has to drop accordingly. This is one of the biggest reasons that landlords drop out of the program!

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monknomo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @04:26PM (#11129459)
I suspect a 'better' way of handling the landlord issue is for the government to be the 'landlord of last resort' but I'm pretty sure that would be a hard sell. Still, it would remove the profit motive.

As to the functionally or willfully blind, I wonder if the HF campaigns start their publicity too late. Perhaps if there were more pictures of tent cities and shelters people would realize there is a local problem?

I know up in Anchorage, AK housing first started gaining momentum after quite a number of extremely visible tent camps and homeless folks getting frozen to the sidewalk.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by hluska on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:51PM (#11131219)
I agree with you! Many European countries (and I think Australia, though don't quote me) use government funded social housing as part of their HF programs. To me, that seems like an obvious solution to the supply problem though others in the anti-poverty community point to the stigma of housing projects in the US.

I've never lived in a housing project and to tell you the truth, most of what I know about them comes from hip hop. But, I'd rather live in the projects than under a bridge...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday February 19, 2016 @12:05AM (#11131686)
Re Australia, it's run by the states. I'm form South Australia, which has 'Housing SA'[1], currently live in Tasmania where the service is called 'Housing Tasmania'[2] These services will help pay / pay in full a bond for private rental, as well as co-ordinate the renting of government owned housing. Houses, town houses, units, and flats, in a variety of locations throughout a city.

If you're a welfare recipient the typically arrangement is for the rent to cost somewhere in the vicinity of 1/3 of your payment. Full rate Unemployment benefit in Australia is $600 a fortnight including something like $100 a fortnight 'Rent Assistance' payment. I believe welfare payment for people unfit for work for whatever reason is slightly more.

Australia also has fairly good services to homeless and disabled provided by the outreach sections of church organisations. Salvation Army and Mission Australia are the two I'm most familiar with. These services will, in certain circumstances, furnish a home and supply clothes.

We still have homelessness. Services are still stretched to their limits. There's a waiting period for the able-bodied to get in to public housing. We still have rough neighbour hoods.

1. https://dcsi.sa.gov.au/services/housing-sa

2. https://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/housing

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by citizensixteen on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:33PM (#11128051)
Thanks for further exploring the ideas of HF. Do you support anything more than HF?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by hluska on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:14PM (#11128410)
Homelessness is damned near impossible. If we realistically want to stop homelessness, we need to:

- end racism.

- end childhood sexual abuse.

- decriminalize all drugs, treat addiction as a health problem and make addictive drugs available under provincial prescription drug programs.

- invest billions of dollars into mental health care.

If you think you can accomplish any of the above, I'll not only vote for you, but I'll quit my job and work for you (for free).

Traditional anti-homelessness programs kind of stink because they work in stages. Candidates have to pass a stage in order to move onto the next and if they fail, they move backwards. The problem with this is that it is hard to stay motivated to stay sober if you live in the same dormitory style shelter where you used to live, where all of your goods are subject to theft, and where you are surrounded by people who are high/drunk on the substance you are addicted to! The other problem is that if you stumble, you generally move backwards and end up even further away from independent housing.

I am Canadian where a striking percentage of the homeless population (especially in the west) is aboriginal. In Canada, we have something called The Indian Act which provides certain benefits to 'status Indians'. One of the benefits it provides is that income earned on a reserve is not subject to federal income tax. The big problem with this is that reserves are often horrid places with absolutely no employment and substandard housing. The second biggest problem is that the Indian Act also works to make the concept of status extinct, but that's far from the point. As an example, the reserve where I spent the first two years of my life (I am not aboriginal, but my Dad was in the RCMP) is more like a concentration camp than a community.

I argue (and this pisses just about everyone off) that one way to cut down on aboriginal homelessness would be to amend the Indian Act so that any money invested on a reserve (provided that the venture employed a certain number of people) would trigger an immediate tax credit and not be subject to any Federal capital gains taxes. Further, I'd argue that any profits earned from these ventures should never be subject to any form of Federal income tax.

Because aboriginal people with status (aka 'status Indians') do not pay federal income tax, if you provided strong tax incentives to investment, you can see a route through which manufacturing in Canada has a similar cost structure to manufacturing in either Asia or in our NAFTA partner countries. Employment on reserves would encourage aboriginal people to move back to their communities, provide more pressure to the federal government to fix the woeful state of housing, and ultimately give people an easier route to gainful employment. Studies have shown that when you bring aboriginal people back into their community and their culture, their mental health/addiction outcomes improve.

Alas, the odds of that happening are likely equivalent to the odds that I will be drafted in the first round of the next NHL draft. (I am 38 years old and don't know how to skate).

So, I think that HF is about the best policy that we have. Though, I would like to see it amended.

Purely from a business point of view, I would like to see HF provide more services (financial and otherwise) to the landlords that participate. I argue that landlords who participate in HF often put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing so. Therefore, I would like to see strong municipal and federal tax incentives for their participation.

Further, I argue that HF programs themselves could do a far better job of moving their candidates into jobs that they can do. There is no way in hell that many of the people I know who would be HF candidates could ever work in a traditional 'job', but I would like HF to do a better job of exploring non-traditional options.

For example, I am heavy into street papers and think that panhandlers are likely the greatest marketing force on the planet. When a friend and I launched our paper, we gave out a few hundred copies to two highly trusted friends in hopes of doing a nice soft launch to work out the problems. The 'soft launch' generated absolutely massive media coverage - we were featured in every print publication, more than half of the radio stations, and 2/3 of the television stations in our city. It would have cost me thousands of dollars to get that kind of coverage at a PR firm. More interesting, our advertisers had tremendously high conversions, to the point that within two months, our advertisers were offering to pay more to keep their competitors out!

One good friend of mine who sold the magazine those first days suffered from schizophrenia and had spent most of his adult life panhandling. In one very upsetting conversation, he remarked that he always believed that people were following him around with microphones and he wasn't sure, but he was absolutely convinced that this time they were real.

Or, I'm reminded of my friend Scott, an insanely talented artist who buys canvases, paints them at night in his shelter, and then sells paintings on the street.

Consequently, I would argue that HF could turn into something of an incubator for street businesses. Everyone, even the homeless, has an incredible array of talent and often it is more a challenge of how to monetize the talent without contributing to the underlying problem. I can foresee all sorts of businesses from online/bricks and mortar art galleries, to graffiti remediation businesses, to clothing design companies, to full blown guerilla marketing teams emerging out of HF programs. The HF of my dreams would give candidates the option of learning basic building maintenance by providing ultra low cost maintenance/building management services to the landlords who participate.

I also tend to argue that HF needs to do a better job of attracting a more diverse set of professionals to run their programs. Traditionally, they draw from social workers whereas I tend to argue that they should be drawing more from business people. Startup founders in particular have so much in common with homeless people that it would be a match made in heaven.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wfo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:46AM (#11127031)
The political argument against it is "I don't want a single dime of my money going to worthless scumbag lowlifes who are too lazy to get a job" or "anything the government does is by definition wasteful, the private sector needs to handle this problem like all problems" -- the same one that galvanizes the right against welfare, regulations, healthcare, etc.

The conservatives we have in the US are so extreme they make even the ones in Canada look very, very liberal. A proposal like that here would induce horrible rage and kicking and screaming about "the free market" and "entitlements". Someone would be called a communist. Maybe impeached. Conservatives run on platforms of removing programs that help the poor, not starting new ones.

There's a reason the blog poster addressed his open letter to the chief of police, and not to a local homeless charity with a check attached. He doesn't want to help solve the problem, he just wants to whine about it really loud to powerful people without doing any work or spending any money and hope it goes away.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by lintiness on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:16PM (#11127354)
wrong. conservatives in the states are more than happy to donate to programs that help the homeless and mentally ill, they're consistently the most charitable americans. they do tend not to like taxes and government waste, however.

it's a myth that the only way to solve these problems is with government.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by lmm on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:56PM (#11127714)
> it's a myth that the only way to solve these problems is with government.

Do you have examples of effective non-government solutions? Looking at my own country my impression is that government is far more effective than charities (in America or elsewhere) on this issue.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by webXL on Thursday February 18, 2016 @05:24PM (#11129826)
Do those "extreme" conservatives have any political power in the cities where this is the biggest problem? What about the liberal yuppies who live closest to the problem and who are most vocal about it?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Spooky23 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:24PM (#11127462)
"Homeless first" undermines the normal eligibility cycle for public housing. It also destroys the communities in these developments. If you find a man screaming obscenities while taking a dump on the sidewalk distasteful, I'll assure you that the people who get stuck living next to him share your reaction -- except they can't walk away.

So you pack housing developments with addicts, crazy people and criminals. Next step is they start attracting their friends, and all of the sudden the development turns into a crime-ridden shithole. The families living in these development get screwed.

It also causes other disruption. NYC is adopting this type of policy, so people on waiting lists or in housing they don't like are flocking there from all across the region, and are receiving enhanced benefits. (It's pretty difficult to prove that someone is bona-fide homeless.) Meanwhile, the chronic homeless people who can't hold it together are still addicted, still in need of mental healthcare and are still living under an overpass.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by VonGuard on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:35PM (#11127565)
Also, I would be REALLY pissed if I lived in a town where I had to struggle to make rent on a place I don't own every month, and the city is giving away free permanent houses to folks who don't have jobs or pay rent... I mean, I want homeless people to have homes, but if they're getting one for free and the economy continues to have housing prices way out of the reach of someone like me, I would be fucking pissed.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by k33n on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:10PM (#11127831)
This viewpoint pretty well summarizes why homeless people aren't helped. Homeless people are viewed as "what happens when you don't have a job or stop paying your bills". Trust me, the fact that you work hard and pay your bills isn't what's keeping you off the street. It's your (relative) mental health and your network.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Domenic_S on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:48PM (#11127654)
It already happens. My first apartment was a studio in a new downtown building that, with parking, I paid about 1/2 my monthly income for. Then I met my neighbor, who claimed to have been hurt by a city bus ("they closed the door on my arm"). She had a 2-br place with a terrace, and paid less than half of what I was paying.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zymhan on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:20AM (#11126817)
"We don't want to give people free houses just because they're too lazy to work" or some shit.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by emblem21 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:05PM (#11127231)
...or why should I work so hard to pay SF rent when I can be homeless and get free housing?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by foldr on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:22PM (#11127438)
Obviously because you'd rather have the housing that you could obtain by working and paying rent, which would be better.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by iofj on Sunday February 21, 2016 @01:15AM (#11143551)
Since most workers in San Francisco don't work in tech, that's not true. At least not if you want to live in San Francisco. The choice is a tent or a 2 hour commute, which may cost to much given service worker's pay.

The only solution is way more housing.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by foldr on Sunday February 21, 2016 @02:45PM (#11146122)
I agree with you that more housing is needed, but come on -- no-one prefers living in a tent to a 2 hour commute.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by iofj on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:55PM (#11147858)
True, but clearly there's people preferring a mobile home.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jrochkind1 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:34PM (#11128054)
I mean, 'you' (the speaker) could quit your job and become homeless and try it? I strongly suspect you'd prefer your original course.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by lintiness on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:49AM (#11126567)
political arguments against anything these days are emotional reactions to parties and politicians rather than policy. people need to turn off the cable news and live less angry lives.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by athenot on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:29AM (#11126892)
...and get to know some of the homeless on a personal level.

Seriously, this is a human issue. We somehow look on these individuals as if they were almost non-human, yet they have powerful stories and painful experiences.

I'm not doing a good job at that but I try to make it a point to reach outside of my fully-customized bubble, and engage other people who could use some respect and human dignity. My impact is minimal in terms of numbers but chatting for 10 min with someone on the street can really make their day. Who knows, if it happens enough, that person may regain the courage it takes to get back in society and reach out to services that are more competent than I at helping in the details.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by lintiness on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:00PM (#11127196)
a huge number of homeless are mentally ill and/or have serious substance abuse problems. re-acclimating can be very difficult. (and NO, i'm not suggesting we not try)
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by kifler on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:08AM (#11126723)
I think most people would argue that they had to pay for their housing but here we have people getting it for free.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by patrick_99 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:01PM (#11127762)
Another issue is the level of government providing the solution. If one town gives all homeless people a place to live, that could act to attract homeless people from other towns. So the burden of fixing a whole region's homeless problem falls on one town.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by dclowd9901 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:19PM (#11127402)
There's no more political arguments to it. Conservatives, anymore, are simply a tool to attempt to dismantle the government, full stop. They simply don't believe we should have a government, mostly because they don't like paying taxes.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by lintiness on Thursday February 18, 2016 @03:16PM (#11128953)
you live in a very simple place. "conservatives" (this term cracks me up) love government when it works, fear it when it doesn't. they tend to trust / prefer private institutions and solutions to public. american "liberals" prefer public solutions to private.

quit disparaging people who disagree with you. attempt to understand their real motivations rather than harping against some lame stereotype (that doesn't even make sense). that's the way to progress and solving our problems.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by shin_lao on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:28PM (#11128017)
Problem is that people just a bit richer than homeless might complain about not having free housing, too.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by brbsix on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:58PM (#11128282)
See welfare cliff. Why struggle to afford housing when a slight reduction in your income (or whatever the criteria) could net free housing? I can certainly see the appeal.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mc32 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:28AM (#11126882)
There are more than one kind of homeless person. There are the ones who simply fell on hard times and don't have money to pay for rent. There are the ones suffer addiction, there are the ones who suffer mental trauma there are the ones who have severe mental disorders, there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc.

Housing first works best for the fist class as well as those who have succumbed to addiction. Some of the others require intensive intervention, perhaps institutional. As someone pointed out, its complex, but it's something beyond any individual's purview, responsibility, etc., so inhabitants who do pay taxes, etc., should expect some kind of organization would be responsible for addressing the issue rather than the knee jerk public castigation for speaking one's opinion about a social issue.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mbrutsch on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:33AM (#11126920)
> there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc.

Indeed, something as simple as smoking weed (regardless of the reason) will exclude you from most government assistance. Living indoors is not always a suitable trade-off for giving up medications that work.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mc32 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:36AM (#11126951)
Not even weed, there are government assisted housing units which will remove people for regular smoking.

But you also have people avoiding an address for whatever legal or avoidance reasons.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by aggieben on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:18PM (#11127385)
Yep, I agree. They're definitely not all the same, and some are more helpable (better word please?) than others.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ktRolster on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:35AM (#11126462)
Utah did the same thing:

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...

The article mentions that some people had trouble adapting to their new houses. Some slept in tents inside their house, others still slept on the street several days a week until they got used to having a house.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by aggieben on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:03PM (#11127213)
Well, I think we might mean different things by "homeless". The kind of people who prefer homelessness (and I know a couple, even in my small town) don't prefer it because they don't have a house. If someone were to just provide them a house, they'd be perfectly happy with that. No, they prefer their lifestyle to the available alternatives because it frees them of any responsibility for themselves.

Naturally, though, not all homeless should be categorized this way. A great many of them surely have serious psychological disorders that prevent them from living normal independent lives. Surely many of them have suffered in many ways, and many of them are surely in the circumstances they're in due to factors they couldn't control. These are the ones that really do need help of _some_ kind.

I sympathize with people like the mayor of the town you use as an example, but he's wrong: you don't give people dignity by giving them a place to live. Housing isn't the source of human dignity. When you give people with no dignity things of value, they don't value those things, and then eventually they become valueless through abuse and neglect. That's why homeless shelters have to have volunteers to monitor when they house the homeless. That's why simply building a big apartment complex and giving keys to the homeless isn't a long-term solution and in all likelihood a fast-track to a destroyed property and a bunch of people spending some time in the clink.

Outside of personal interventions and great investment of resources into individuals, I'm not sure there are really any great solutions. It makes me sad, but I don't have any great ideas for how to help them better (writ large), than try to meet some basic material needs (food pantries, temporary shelters) and keep them safe.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jonknee on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:28AM (#11126403)
Being homeless in Calgary is a lot different than the SF Bay area (you don't die in the Winter being a big one!). I'm positive there are many in SF who would benefit from a similar program, but there would still be a ton of homeless people.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by maxerickson on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:37AM (#11126475)
http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-...

I searched "salt lake city homeless" remembering the program there and the SF Gate article discussing it's applicability to SF happened to be the first result, so I'm just embracing the irony, not trying to force it.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by BurningFrog on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:43PM (#11127622)
Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar.

In reality, the homeless population in 2016 SF and in 2014 Medicine Hat are shaped by the specific conditions and incentives in those communities.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by citizensixteen on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:28PM (#11128007)
>Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar.

Certainly, being homeless in Iceland would be different that being homeless in Liberia. I was just sharing an example of a situation where a person had their views about the homeless changed. In this case it was the mayor of Medicine Hat.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by middleq on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:01AM (#11126661)
Not having a "home" might be a side effect of the homeless lifestyle. There is a difference between a free roof and working.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ryanlol on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:04AM (#11126684)
The record low °C in SF is -3. I don't think there's anywhere in canada that's even remotely comparable.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by st3v3r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:06PM (#11127802)
Part of the difference in attitude might be the difference in climate between San Francisco and Medicine Hat.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by odonnellryan on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:43AM (#11126525)
The homeless often have mental illnesses. Forget less severe illness, 1/3 have been found to have severe illness: http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mentall...

So, it isn't they are homeless because they like the lifestyle, but it is often because of an illness that they prefer that lifestyle.

We've all certainly felt extraordinary pressures related to common every-day life. Mental illness makes dealing with these pressures very difficult, often almost impossible. I would not blame someone for trying to escape those pressures.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by notthegov on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:12AM (#11126749)
Where I live, it is more the opposite. People come here with irrational dreams, get on the street, fall into bad things, and then through dehydration, stress and living on the street, they become more irrational, and eventually permanently changed.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by odonnellryan on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:21AM (#11126819)
That's a good point, but if you're talking about addiction, mental illness is a precursor to addictive behavior. It is one of the major reasons why people self-medicate. Certainly is not the only reason.

My philosophy is: certain things are good for everyone if everyone has them. Some of these things: food, education, healthcare, place to sleep (securely), modest personal possessions, and so forth.

Reasons are mostly because of what you said. Homelessness leads to a general decline in society. If more people have healthcare, the general health of everyone goes up. If more people are fed, more people are productive, and production is good for everyone (to draw an incredibly broad generality). And so on.

It's unrealistic to say we'll do all those things 100%, but I do not think they are unrealistic goals for a modern and technologically advanced society.

Price breakdown:

30bil/year to end world hunger. 175bil/year to end world poverty.

20bil/year to end homelessness in the US.

I can't find numbers for everything, but those are some good ones to think about.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by notthegov on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:43AM (#11127013)
Humanity and biology in general is a precursor to addictive behavior. One of the major reasons people self-medicate, is because they think they are their thoughts. They indulge every whim and emotional impulse as if it is a command line directing their life.

If people could separate themselves from their emotions, if they were taught stoicism, Buddhism or how free will and the self is a (likely) an illusion, then maybe they'd be stronger.

I can't elaborate, but I know people worth hundreds of millions of dollars, that are young, beautiful and have everything, but can't handle life, and tried to kill themselves but why?

Because an obese corrupt doctor told them that he knew the mysteries of the brain, and that they need to take a lighter form of methamphetamine every day for the rest of their life to be normal.

As Dr. Carl Hart explained, adderall is basically meth- http://www.vice.com/read/a-neuroscientist-explains-how-he-fo...

That person is in college, and the social acceptance of taking adderall to succeed is scary. If you can handle a low dose, great, I'm all for practicality. But most can't and the idea that amphetamines can cure a lack of focus is pseudoscience.

So excuse my tone, but I don't believe in what you said. The problem is behavioral choices (health, what you read/watch/interact) and learning how to deal with one's own thoughts and impulses, not mythical theories on brain chemisty.

What you are saying is often the cause of the problem, not the solution.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by rudolf0 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:30PM (#11128028)
It's both. Many likely have some pre-existing mental condition, maybe completely latent or or maybe just early in onset. Awful life conditions combined with substance abuse then lead to a feedback loop exacerbating the mental illness, substance abuse, and shitty choices.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by astrodust on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:13PM (#11127870)
If you're homeless and turn to drugs to try and take the edge off, it can be hard to pull out of that downward spiral.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by creshal on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:10AM (#11126245)
> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't.

A lot of them are mentally handicapped or dealing with acquired mental illnesses. Even under good conditions, treating either is hard. Of course EMS/fire fighters/volunteers working in shelters aren't able to do that.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monkmartinez on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:25AM (#11126375)
I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine to take to the local Crisis Resource Center/ Behaviour Rehabilitation center because they begged and pleaded that they want help. Great!

More often than not, we see them a few days later with Steel Reserve cans littered about after someone calls 911 for what appears to them a dead man on the side of the road.

Mental illness is brutal. I feel for these guys, especially as I get older and start seeing my age equivalent homeless folks with PTSD and the like. The Vietnam vets are being replaced with Gulf war and Afghanistan vets. It is heart breaking to be sure... especially because many of us have served. We try, again, to hook these guys up with the VA... but they must want the help. It will not work otherwise.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zepto on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:47AM (#11126554)
Wanting help is not the same as being able to be helped. Veterans often have what is called 'treatment resistant PTSD', which is another way of saying that we haven't figured out how to treat them. There is a wealth of material on how even veterans who have supportive families and are housed and in treatment can't always hold down a job.

New treatments such as VR based exposure therapy, or MDMA therapy are promising, but the standard of care is currently CBT and/or drugs, which have generally poor outcomes.

We just don't know how to treat PTSD in general. This has nothing to do with whether people 'want' help or not.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monkmartinez on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:17AM (#11126782)
Sure. We do our best with the training we've had to handle the situations we are presented with. I know there are subtleties and nuance, especially with vets. That doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with them now.

I'm not minimizing their issues, nor am I saying one-size fits all... but I would be remiss to not say: there are a lot of people dealing with mental/medical problems that are resistant to traditional therapies that don't resort to self-destructive behaviour to cope.

To wave off all the choices they make on a day-to-day basis is a disservice them and flies in the face of the people that are dealing with the same issues in non-self-destructive manner.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wpietri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:35AM (#11126940)
If you think addicts are making "choices" in the conventional sense of that term, you haven't quite caught on to the nature of addiction. They no longer have a choice. That's why there are no ex-addicts, just people in recovery. They spend the rest of their lives learning to avoid waking the beast that dwells within them. They very carefully construct lives that keep them away from circumstances where they lose the power of choice.

It's not an easy thing. I have friends who have made it so far, and their struggles were enormous. I have friends and family who didn't make it, and they're now dead. And I know plenty of people who just aren't addictive by nature; they made all the same choices and never had a problem at all.

I get why people don't like this. We all want to believe in the power of will. In particular, we want to believe that the power of our own will is sufficient to the challenges we face. But sometimes it isn't, and if we accepted that, we'd have fewer homeless addicts.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knughit on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:58AM (#11127159)
Holding down a job isn't relevant. They did a job for us, we owe them care in the face of the disability that job created.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Kristine1975 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:23PM (#11127444)
> They did a job for us

Only if we are the Military-Industrial Complex.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jonknee on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:30AM (#11126417)
I wouldn't trust the VA to actually give them the help they need. Navigating a giant bureaucracy is tough for the most sane among us, let alone someone on the ropes.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by yuudu_literal on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:17PM (#11127373)
> I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine

Err... why? Were they on fire? Why is the fire department involved in homeless people?

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monknomo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:40PM (#11127598)
The fire departments in most towns in America provide emergency medical services. 911 calls about health related things often result in a fire truck arriving, rather than an ambulance.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by chei0aiV on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:58PM (#11131248)
What?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monknomo on Friday February 19, 2016 @06:27PM (#11137565)
I don't know what the history is, I'm sure it's complicated.

You've got hospital ambulances, private ambulances, city fire departments, county fire departments, volunteer fire departments and federal fire fighting organizations all potentially in the same place, all summonable by a 911 dispatcher. They all have EMT training and gear. Who shows up and how is it decided? Beats me.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by chei0aiV on Friday February 19, 2016 @07:01PM (#11137723)
Well, as long as whoever shows up has the required experience and equipment to solve the situation, great! I guess the fire fighting orgs have medical equipment and training too?

Sometimes human organisation is baffling if you are seeing it from a step further out but makes complete sense when viewed from the inside.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by _b8r0 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:56AM (#11127136)
> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't.

As someone who's been homeless twice, I appreciate that you don't intend to offend, but this is a very loaded and offensive statement. You appear to work with homeless people and have very little sympathy for their situation, which I can understand but it still makes me a little sad.

Becoming homeless is something that can happen to anyone for any number of reasons, and there are different kinds of being homeless. Once you become homeless it becomes harder as time goes on to move back to something permanent. Booze and drugs can sometimes be a simple manner of being able to sleep, or to get away from the situation you're in or how you got there. Choices that seem nonsensical for those who have a warm bed every night make perfect sense when you're worn down by the elements and incredibly poor sleep. After a while the prospect of having to deal with the build up of shit in your life and get shit together becomes a bigger mountain to climb than carrying on when you are, even though your everyday struggle is a mountain of shit in itself.

It's not that people choose a lifestyle as such, it's that sometimes it feels less painful to have a permanent known level of shit in your life than to fight all the way back up to get a permanent place to live and risk being knocked back when you're already pretty fragile. Being homeless is the suckiest thing you can probably reasonably imagine.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monkmartinez on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:11PM (#11127843)
I have empathy for everyone. Sympathy is completely different. Why should I feel sorry for <bob> my regular that I've known for years and absolutely does not want help? I empathize with his situation as I wouldn't choose that lifestyle. Beyond that, society doesn't owe him anything.

It is complex and every story is different. I am sure if I knew every story, there would be some that I would feel sympathy and perhaps compelled to act... but so far, those have been very rare.

> Booze and drugs can sometimes be a simple manner of being able to sleep, or to get away from the situation you're in or how you got there. Choices that seem nonsensical for those who have a warm bed every night make perfect sense when you're worn down by the elements and incredibly poor sleep. After a while the prospect of having to deal with the build up of shit in your life and get shit together becomes a bigger mountain to climb than carrying on when you are, even though your everyday struggle is a mountain of shit in itself.

I am not guaranteed a warm bed every night. No one is, if you really think about it.

Further, you just described being a police officer, fire fighter/ems person with the stresses of the job. Suicide[1], booze/drugs, divorce, anger management are all unfortunate parts of the job for many. How they choose to deal with these issues are another matter entirely.

Sleep issues are a major pain point for me. I choose this life so I have had to develop strategies to deal with it. Some people can't deal with the stress, so they quit/move on, mask it with booze/drugs, have significant behavioural (anger) issues, or kill themselves. Sound familiar?

[1]http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseac...

http://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/Firefighters-Addres...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by yuudu_literal on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:16PM (#11127362)
These kind of responses have a chilling effect on debate and progress.

> this is a very loaded and offensive statement

So the fuck what? If you aren't allowed to consider anything offensive, we'd never discuss the difficult issues and make progress on them.

> something that can happen to anyone for any number of reasons, and there are different kinds of being homeless

Yeah blah blah blah he's not saying 'absolutely every homeless person is like this', he's suggesting that maybe the situation isn't as everyone assumes, which may be the case. But you've shut him down with some 'not every homeless' person bullshit.

> It's not that people choose a lifestyle as such

He didn't say choose did he? He said they prefer it - I presume he means prefer it to being institutionalised. You seem to suggest that he thinks they prefer it to being a millionaire, which of course they do not.

Have you ever heard of the idea of being charitable in how you interpret other people's thoughts?

> Being homeless is the suckiest thing you can probably reasonably imagine.

Who are you arguing with here? Who disagrees with you? All he said is that some of these homeless people may prefer being on the street to being taken into the care of the state.

You are destroying debate!

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by dang on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:22PM (#11128507)
Please don't create throwaway accounts on HN for the purpose of breaking the rules. There's no point here that you couldn't have made civilly.

You reacted as if iuguy had tried to "shut down" discussion with an ideological dictum, but that's not at all what he did. Both iuguy and monkmartinez have commented out of deep personal experience. We're incredibly fortunate to have commenters posting from that level, most of all in so rage-baity a thread.

Showing up with a bullhorn and blaring angry arguments is the last thing you should be doing on HN to begin with, but to insert that at the most meaningful point of human communication in this thread is really an abuse.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jefurii on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:20AM (#11126812)
> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"

For a number of years I helped run a Saturday morning soup kitchen at a church near the VA in West LA. Talked to a lot of people, mostly guys, and heard this a lot too, but for most of them it's not the whole story.

Most of the homeless people I encountered had a point in their lives when the system failed them. Many of them had some traumatic event and fell into alcoholism or drugs. Many of them either had a weak social net (family or friends) or burned through that net. Counselling was not available or came too late, and once they were far enough along unemployment ran out. Eventually they embraced homelessness because they could no longer imagine an alternative, so that they could think something positive about themselves.

My sense is that there was a window during which the system could have helped them with their problems when it became too much for their friends/family and before they went too far down that path. But certain elements in our society (cough Republicans/Libertarians) just don't want to help people at risk.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by stvswn on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:30PM (#11128031)
"had some traumatic event and fell into alcoholism and drugs"

This phrase is doing a lot of work for your argument -- the implication is that alcohol and drugs are like open manholes, and people are just falling in.

I believe in treating addiction. I also believe in removing stigmas associated with drug crimes. I think we should help people. But we shouldn't all assume that drugs cause poverty, 100% of the time. Poverty sometimes causes drug use. Hopelessness and despair (economically, socially) lead to chemical escapism.

My point is that not every drug addict is a victim of a disease which keeps him from contributing to society. People use drugs for a lot of reasons.

I am a Republican/Libertarian, and I take a small amount of offense to the accusation that we "just don't want to help." On the contrary, I believe the current strategies -- house them, feed them, give them clean needles -- is doing more harm than good. It makes the lifestyle sustainable without giving them any hope for something better.

A better way forward: - Stop charging drug users with felonies that prevent them from getting jobs in the future - Legalize almost all drugs, except for those that put the public at harm by causing psychosis. - More mental health services, including committing more people. We're failing schizophrenics when we don't force them into treatment. - Grow the economy. We need more jobs for the lower rung of the labor force. The first step towards despair is often unemployment. - If we're going tax dollars, let's create public jobs for people. I don't mind if subsidized housing is part of the package. - Stop creating homeless havens. It's counterproductive. You can't allow people to defecate on the street in broad daylight and call it compassion. When you do that, people travel to that neighborhood from all over because it's a place where they won't be hassled. It becomes impossible to run a small business there, families leave, the neighborhood dies.

I'm not saying we should fill the jails with the homeless. But why not provide public restrooms, and then arrest and/or commit those who are using the sidewalk? If we need someone to maintain the restrooms -- pay the homeless.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by a-saleh on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:33AM (#11126448)
Sometimes I feel this "most of them prefer the way it is" is just a way to make excuses for us not solving a problem.

For example in my city of ~ quarter mil. people, there are approximately 1000 people living on the streets and another 1000 without home (no adress, permanently living in hostels, people in prisons that no longer have home).

Currently I know that there is project that focuses on the families without home (afaik 300-400 ppl?), where the plan is to move them into the city owned flats (there is more than 20 000 flats owned by the city with several hundred empty)

I like the logic behind that. To catch people without home before they end up on the street and give them an adress. What do you think?

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by monkmartinez on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:57AM (#11126621)
Maybe, but funding new programs for homeless/mentally ill is problematic for a lot of reasons; A lot municipalities have budget problems with structural deficits. This puts pressure on basic infrastructure like roads, water, and sewer. Public transportation is under severe stress due to the budgets. Public safety agencies have been relying on grants (SAFER) from the fed to get basic needs met as the cities are tapped out. Government employees in my area haven't had a raise in 10 years while the costs for insurance, medicare, and everything else has gone up more than 10%. To put it bluntly, asking voters to approve bonds/money for homeless will go over like a turd in a punch bowl.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by a-saleh on Thursday February 18, 2016 @04:37PM (#11129530)
Well that is why the reasoning here is

1. "We already have lot of empty flats nobody lives in and need to maintain them" 2. "We already rent many flats for like 300$ a month to low income families, that have the courage for like 10 different visits to municipal office" 3. "Families that are on the edge of homelesness already live in some hostel and might be paying more than 300$ a month just to have a place to stay."

At least that is the gist of it as far as I know.

Second, this is an EU city, so I know that they want to get some initial funds from EU funds (the first set of flats needs to undergo reconstruction, because the basic utilities, like water and electricity are in terrible state) as a pilot 'housing first' project in the republic.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by chris_wot on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:54AM (#11127116)
No wonder there is a homelessness problem then. With an attitude like this from both public officials and voters alike is it surprising that homelessness is getting worse and worse?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by tim333 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:18AM (#11126319)
The issue my be complex but you don't see the same thing in most of Europe or Canada which suggests it's not immune to government action.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by rconti on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:21AM (#11126820)
Just an anecdote, but when I studied in a mid-sized city in France a bit over a decade ago, one night after walking home from the bar, I commented to my host mom that I was surprised at the number of homeless people. She seemed confused, so I mentioned people sleeping in the doorways of businesses that were shuttered for the night.

Her reply has always stuck with me. "Oh! No, they're not homeless, they're Roma."

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by talideon on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:46AM (#11127036)
Well, she's not wrong. The situation with the Roma across Europe is a weird one that's completely separate from the homelessness situation.

[All of this is a simplification, and I'm omitting a lot here. The gist ought to be correct, and, I hope, fair to all.]

There are certain cultural barriers when it comes to the Roma. When you have an itinerant population like the Roma (and in Ireland and the UK, Travellers), you will naturally end up with with a conflict of some kind between the settled and travelling populations in a given area, unless both populations are familiar with one another, and even then the opportunities for discrimination are huge. The situation with Travellers in Ireland and the UK isn't as bad as the Roma situation, as the itinerant Roma population is self-isolating and can't speak the same language as the host settled population, whereas at least Travellers can speak the same language, so they're not as isolated from the settled population as the Roma are.

With Travellers, the core issue is that the trades that once allowed them to afford their lifestyle are no longer useful to society at large, so their opportunities for employment are few and far between, which unfortunately leads a greater number down the path of criminality [aside: the vast majority are decent people, but when you're deprived of opportunities, that's going to lead some people to crime]. Add to this that the modern state practically demands a settled lifestyle for things like taxation, education, healthcare, &c., which even further alienates the Traveller and settled populations. Now, you could suggest that they just settle, and some do, but people tend to be attached to their heritage, so for many that's not a runner.

With the Roma, all of that is even worse because they have the added language barrier and an even bigger cultural barrier. Moreover, you also have a trafficking problem surrounding some of the Roma where they're exploited as beggars, and sometimes worse.

So yes, the Roma situation is a completely separate situation from that of homelessness in general, and one nobody has any good answers for yet.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Shivetya on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:56AM (#11126611)
You really need to read up on the issue more then. Even a simple browsing of Wikipedia will show the statement is wrong. What is primarily different is reporting by news sources. If the US is nearing a million or two homeless (numbers reported are lower) for the size of its population how does that put it in perspective of Canada listing around three hundred thousand out of thirty five million people. The EU reports nearly three million.

Worse is the homeless situation in third world countries where even less services are available. Being homeless in a Western nation is far different than anywhere else. It may be exaggerated in SF and LA simply because of two reasons, climate and more support for those in need. So the city may actually being doing a good job but is simply attracting more people because they are

tl;dr do not for a moment think that homelessness isn't as bad issue elsewhere, let alone countries where the US is equal to economically.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by sologoub on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:35AM (#11126942)
Visited Paris last November and the situation looked very differently - homeless were present, but did not appear to be the same mentally ill types that I see in LA and SF. That's not a coincidence - France has universal healthcare (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France).

It's really disheartening to see the plight of people who could have been helped. Especially, given that we (US) spend more per capita on healthcare...

Another interesting observation is the difference between LA and SF. In LA (beach areas and west LA/Westwood) a side from minor inconvenience of a line outside public beach restrooms/showers and some encampments, there really isn't a disruption. In SF, people walk in yelling into stores, act out aggressively in broad daylight and generally don't seem to feel any restraint. I never felt particularly unsafe in LA, but definitely had to watch my surroundings last weekend in SF, much more than ever before in the last decade.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Joeboy on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:14AM (#11126766)
> Even a simple browsing of Wikipedia will show the statement is wrong.

I looked up "Homelessness in the UK" on Wikpedia and the first line is:

> Homelessness in the United Kingdom is kept somewhat at bay

> by a reasonable volume of housing, statutory rights, and

> various government initiatives.

I don't know what figures you are looking at, but one caveat that occurs to me is that the UK's main homelessness charity, Shelter, has a fairly broad definition of homelessness. You don't have to be sleeping in the street for them to consider you "homeless". Which is good, because relying on your friends' sofas for housing is indeed a very crappy situation which government policy should seek to minimize, but bad, because that's not what other people consider homelessness to be.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by icelancer on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:17AM (#11126791)
What? Have you been to Paris or any major large city in Europe? It's not different than most of American large cities. SF and Seattle just happen to be two of the worst in the nation for homelessness issues and a lot of that is because they move there.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by BurningFrog on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:46PM (#11127645)
One common government action is to lock up or beat up vagrants.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Justsignedup on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:58PM (#11128277)
Do you have any idea how taxing it is on the psyche to be homeless? Maybe there are one or two people who chose this lifestyle like developers mooching off Google. But overall this is the exception, not the rule.

Reasons many are homeless:

- Psychiatric problems. They can't fit in to normal working conditions because they are for lack of a better word crazy. They also don't get the necessary help due to poverty.

- Lost a job. In a city like New York where the cost of a studio apartment over an hour away by train can cost 1 grand a month, and minimum wage is still $9 an hour, and food is pricy, and metro isn't exactly cheap either, it can be very easy to fall into the homeless problem if you don't have friends and family helping. I know quite a few people who were fortunate to have had a car and able to get up and leave the state rather than sleep on the street.

- Being homeless often means no access to cleanliness which limits your ability to find a job. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

- If you are injured to a point where you can't work, it is not very easy to get government disability. My friend took 2 years to get the benefits while she was completely crippled. She was surviving on the generosity of her friends. When the government finally gave her money, she was able to afford a teensy apartment. If she ended up homeless the government wouldn't give her the benefits because you need an official place of residence.

- Speaking of a place of residence, a crippled homeless person cannot go to a shelter because they will be preyed upon. And they can't physically fight back. And so they also can't claim benefits because of this. I know one such person.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by huuu on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:02AM (#11126667)
Homeless people lost trust in the system so they prefer to live without it. But they don't prefer to be homeless.

Try living on the streets and you will become an addicted asshole. I don't think there are a lot of people who can do it for years and stay 'normal'.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wpietri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:22AM (#11126836)
From what I can tell your main complaint here is that homeless addicts are... addicts?

I really appreciate that you serve homeless residents just like other residents. But you might consider that the people who you are most frequently called to help are not representative of the homeless population. Look at the national stats:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta...

That's a lot of families. It's a lot of kids. A friend of mine put years into making a documentary about homeless youth in Chicago. I got to meet some of them, and they are entirely different than the picture you paint:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/homestretch/

I think it's also important to note that active addicts generally refuse help no matter what level of society they're in. That's part of the addictive cycle. Homeless addicts claim to prefer their "lifestyle" and will fight to keep it. But so do gainfully employed alcoholics. So do wealthy coke fiends. It's a disease that will kill all of them eventually unless they can start facing how much addiction has screwed up their lives. And as hard as facing that has to be for a well-off person, I expect it's way harder for someone who has fallen so low as to be sleeping under an overpass and living out of a trash can.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by dragonwriter on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:32AM (#11126917)
> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"...

To the extent that's true, I suspect that says a lot more about the alternatives that they are presented with than anything else.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mbrutsch on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:30AM (#11126900)
> most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness."

When I worked at a VA Medical Center 25 years ago, the problem was identical. You end up feeling more for the social workers than for the vets.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by borkabrak on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:48PM (#11127655)
> that doesn't mean we treat them like sub-humans... we just have less patience with the shit they are inevitably going to give us.

While I have difficulty agreeing that the homeless generally want to be, it seems worth noting that they're not better than normal people, any more than they are worse - they are normal people, with the same charm and/or asshattery as the rest of us. They're just in a situation most of us (or so I think) find singularly undesirable.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Mz on Friday February 19, 2016 @02:18PM (#11135835)
I am homeless. I have never spent a night in a shelter. I prefer sleeping in a tent. It is cleaner and more humane. The services aimed at helping the homeless are mostly pretty revolting. The free meals are lower quality than fast food. The emergency shelters have mold problems. And you get crowded in with other sick, poor, desperate people to have a shot at the dregs they are willing to provide you.

This is part of why I have this blog: http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/

Homeless people need the same things other people need: Work that works for them and other middle class solutions that are largely disappearing from an increasingly polarized America. But what they are offered is mostly contempt and really low quality options and services rooted in a broken, abusive, horrifying set of mental models. And then we are vilified for not being adequately grateful for the shit offered to us.

I don't want to be homeless. But, yeah, I prefer this to the vastly shittier alternatives available to me.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by notthegov on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:29AM (#11126887)
I agree, most prefer the lifestyle because A) life is hard and B) they adapt and/or give-up.

There are 25,000 homeless in my city. I don't know exact numbers but a lot come here to pursue their dreams and some to escape a bad situation back home.

But it is so expensive here. Housing is difficult. Deception is everywhere, in terms of convincing people they have a chance at a career. But more often, they fall into drugs and prostitution, and running the streets -- because it is fun and easy, at first.

So an 18 year old kid who wants to be a singer, can run around meeting interesting people, act like he/she is achieving their dream but really is just partying. Then their irresponsible ways get them on the street.

And a once bright kid becomes diminished by drugs, and stress, and the struggle and emotional pain and torture that living on the streets causes. They then look "mentally ill" but most, in my experience, are merely exhausted and are irresponsible.

I have young friends who are homeless, and I'd start my day drinking coffee with them at Starbucks and then later eating breakfast at my building (a 5-star hotel) with people who could afford to feed a million people for a year.

And my rich friends, a lot are on drugs, and some do insane illegal things, and are generally way worse for society than my homeless friends. And I could often trust my homeless friends more than my rich ones.

At the time, I lived in an $8 million condo for free. And through a conflict of over our philosophies on pandering and prostitution, I moved out abruptly, and was nearly homeless myself. I then got to experience first hand the atrocious public transportation services, the difficulty in renting an apartment and how the City just doesn't care about working class people or the homeless.

The City is inept and just not thinking about solving the problems in a valid way. Instead, they take away electrical outlets in most areas which just punishes tourists, commuters, regular working people etc.

And great institutions, like the pubic libraries, which Carnegie saw as a way to lift up all of society, become refugees for the homeless.

Of course, the majority of homeless people are too far gone. Most are lazy, selfish, destructive and just terrible people.

Were they like that before or did they learn to be that way? Maybe if schools taught kids critical thinking skills and stoicism and how to separate themselves from the emotions, then we'd have a stronger society that knew how to deal with adversity better.

A lot of people, rich poor, smart or uneducated, are slightly fragile and weak. Life is hard, for us all, and society doesn't teach us how to live life very well.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by myblake on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:38AM (#11126964)
I suspect also many of the homeless in San Francisco, especially the ones being complained about here, have pretty bad mental health problems going on treated. Government probably needs to step in and help on that front as well.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Fede_V on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:46AM (#11126052)
I completely believe in being the charity principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity) when interpreting what someone said, but in this case, I think you are being too generous.

He was not complaining about the suffering of those people and the lack of government intervention on their behalf - he was unhappy because poor people made his own personal life marginally worse by subjecting him to unpleasant views/smells.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by RodericDay on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:47AM (#11126065)
yeah that's wildly charitable:

https://justink.svbtle.com/open-letter-to-mayor-ed-lee-and-g...

> Every day, on my way to, and from work, I see people sprawled across the sidewalk, tent cities, human feces, and the faces of addiction. The city is becoming a shanty town… Worst of all, it is unsafe.

> [...]

> I am telling you, there is going to be a revolution. People on both sides are frustrated, and you can sense the anger. The city needs to tackle this problem head on, it can no longer ignore it and let people do whatever they want in the city. I don’t have a magic solution… It is a very difficult and complex situation, but somehow during Super Bowl, almost all of the homeless and riff raff[1] seem to up and vanish. I’m willing to bet that was not a coincidence. Money and political pressure can make change. So it is time to start making progress, or we as citizens will make a change in leadership and elect new officials who can.

> Democracy is not the last stop in politics. In-fact, the order of progression according to Socrates via Plato in the Republic goes: timocracy, oligarchy, democracy, and finally tyranny. Socrates argues that a society will decay and pass through each government in succession, eventually becoming a tyranny.

This guy knows there's sides, and he knows what side he's on.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by StavrosK on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:50AM (#11126087)
The GP didn't say the letter meant it that way, he said the letter is right in that there shouldn't be homeless people living in the streets, they should be taken care of by a stronger safety net.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by bonaldi on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:11AM (#11126259)
I'm going to be pedantic, but only because I think that's how the letter guy is going to try and get out of this too. The letter did not say that "there shouldn't be homeless people living in the streets".

Both it and GP said he shouldn't have to see homeless people. The letter writer certainly wouldn't care if the homeless people were still homeless, so long as they were bussed somewhere he didn't have to gaze upon their poor faces.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ktRolster on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:42AM (#11126508)

   > so long as they were bussed somewhere he didn't have to gaze upon their poor faces.

Lucky him, San Francisco offers one way bus tickets to anywhere for homeless people: http://www.ibtimes.com/homeless-bus-ticket-programs-across-n...
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by curun1r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:51AM (#11127085)
If you read your article, SF only offers tickets to people to return home. They're not trying to get rid of people who grew up here. This speaks to how much of SF's homeless problem stems from being a homeless destination. If you're homeless in a part of the country that is less accommodating, both politically and climatically, you come to SF. Based on your article, it seems that a lot of places will even buy you the bus ticket.

This issue reminds me of the refugee problems happening recently in Europe. The problem was refugees trying to get into Europe and should've been the responsibility of the entire EU to solve. But the problem was felt most acutely in the Greek islands where refugees were showing up. And when an national/continental issue is felt primarily by a single, smaller region, it's highly problematic.

As a thought experiment, what would happen if SF started sheltering the homeless and ensuring that all their needs were met. Well, suddenly those bus tickets bought by cities around the country become a lot more effective and more cities around the country start buying them. It's even the moral thing for social workers to do, since the political climate in their city means that it's better for the person being bussed out to go to SF. It becomes a tragedy of the commons situation where the disincentive for doing the right thing is that you get to deal with the problems from the places that do the wrong thing. A homeless person going elsewhere is a living externality.

This is a national problem (probably international, though deportation is considered entirely acceptable in that situation) and needs to be treated as such. If the Federal government doesn't want to deal with the problem, it could pass a law that allows the city that provides services to a homeless person to bill the cost to the homeless person's home city. Suddenly that bus ticket wouldn't seem like the cheapest option and SF could provide all the services necessary to solve its own homeless problem. Until then, the situation will remain fucked. SF is too liberal to be take a GTFO stance and too poor to comprehensively solve the problem for all the homeless that are there now and would show up if they started such a program.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ktRolster on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:36PM (#11127572)

  > If you read your article, SF only offers tickets to people to return home.
They offer tickets if someone will take care of the homeless person. In practice, we see homeless refugees from San Francisco showing up in Turlock and Modesto, given free tickets, and still being homeless just in a different place.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wpietri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:47AM (#11127048)
Your summary is flatly incorrect.

A lot of SF's homeless are from elsewhere, people who came here on a hope, or just because of SF's reputation as a city that's friendly to weirdos. (That's certainly part of why I came.)

If they can't make it here, SF offers them a way to get home again, but only if there is actually someone there who can put them up, and only if they're in good enough condition to travel. Details are here:

http://www.sfhsa.org/79.htm

That is distinctly different from places that dump their homeless residents here. E.g.:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Nevada-reach-tenta...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by StavrosK on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:25AM (#11126376)
Or if he went blind!
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mc32 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:14AM (#11126761)
It's unfortunate people always have to play politics and angles. "'bro" is the new "thug". It's a label imposed on a person you disagree with in order to garner antipathy against them.

And yes, there should not be homeless people, they should be managed and taken care of by either government agencies, charities or families. It's a failure of society, rather than a failure of the people complaining about unhinged people who at times panhandle, sleep, urinate, defecate, scream, accost, spit, voice their inner monologues, eat, in public often times at the expense of the public.

And to be sure, this should not be a locally addressed problem but a national problem. Addressing it locally only attracts more homeless into homeless friendly areas.

Render homeless services to homeless based on where they lived the longest, from federal funds so you don't get concentrations in Santa Clara county, or Los Angeles county from people from all over.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by StavrosK on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:48AM (#11126066)
I visited SF a few times, and I was always horrified to see how such a wealthy city leaves its homeless people to wander around, sleep in the cold and generally live in inhuman conditions. I won't claim I know enough about the city from two visits to propose any solutions, but I know that the fact that there are hundreds or thousands of people living like that is inexcusable. I've never seen this before to such extent.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ctlby on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:38AM (#11126479)
The city spends $167 million [1] for a homeless population no larger than 15,000 (and probably closer to 7,000) [2]. The wealthy city isn't leaving anyone to his or her fate. To the contrary, it's expending vast amounts of wealth with precious little to show for it.

[1] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/S-F-spendi...

[2] https://sfgov.org/lhcb/sites/sfgov.org.lhcb/files/2015%20San...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by spikels on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:29PM (#11128021)
And that $167 million is just services specifically for the homeless. It does not included other city services which are heavily used by the homeless such as medical, housing, police, sanitation, etc - probably well over another $100 million - or the extensive private, non-profit and church spending.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mattlutze on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:23AM (#11126849)
To boot, that would be 6-7% of the city's 2.5B in receipts from 2012-2013:

http://sftreasurer.org/sites/sftreasurer.org/files/TTX_Annua...

That there's not a significant dent in the continuing issue raises some questions.

Expatistan's crowd-sourced info finds SF housing to be the most expensive in the world, and cost of living in general nearly there:

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/san-francisco

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zepto on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:52AM (#11126585)
That's between 12k and 20k per person. Way less than you'd need to provide accommodation and treatment for a person with mental illness. It's not surprising it doesn't work.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knowaveragejoe on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:06AM (#11126710)
The people blasting the city claim the city isn't doing enough, and when shown that they are actually are providing a remarkable amount of support, it still isn't enough. 12-20k annually is more than a significant chunk of the population earns in wages.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zepto on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:37AM (#11126960)
I don't really know what your point is. The amount may be a large dollar figure, but it is clearly not enough to solve the problem, therefore the problem still exists.

I'm curious how many people live in SF on 12-20k, but that's irrelevant. If someone has accommodation and is able to earn wages as a steady state, it is obvious that their costs will be less than a homeless person who needs mental health treatment, rehabilitation and maybe even education before they are employable.

The figure that employed people can survive on is well below the lower bound for what is needed to rehabilitate a homeless person.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ctlby on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:16PM (#11128432)
The point is that no amount of money will solve the problem with San Francisco's current approach (whatever that is). If they spend $50 million with zero effect, and they spend $100 million with zero effect, and they spend $150 million with zero effect, where do you guess the problem stands at the $200, $250, $500 marks?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zepto on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:32PM (#11131557)
What are you talking about? How do you know the approach has zero effect?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ctlby on Friday February 19, 2016 @09:04AM (#11133477)
Check out the chart on page 18. $1.5 billion spent over 10 years, and the homeless population... increased! What a humiliating statistic for anyone who thinks this can be solved with mental-health treatment, rehab, empathy, or [homily of choice].
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by peanut_merchant on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:15AM (#11126769)
Throwing money at a problem is one thing. Intelligent allocation of that money is another.

I'm not saying it isn't allocated effectively, just that the numbers themselves do not tell the whole tale.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knowaveragejoe on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:39AM (#11126974)
Sure, I agree, but that's a bit different from whether they're supposedly ignoring the problem and/or not doing "enough".
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by trimbo on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:14PM (#11127332)
That's just the city's spending though. There (edit: is) other money: state and federal, private donations, churches, the VA system, and so on.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wlesieutre on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:19AM (#11126331)
> sleep in the cold

Are we talking about the same city here? I'd call SF "occasionally chilly" at best. That's part of why so many homeless people gravitate to CA; if you're sleeping outdoors there are many, many worse climates for it.

> The coldest day of the year is December 26, with an average low of 44°F and high of 55°F.

https://weatherspark.com/averages/31587/San-Francisco-Califo...

Related: did you know that windows can crack from thermal stress like cookware that you cool too rapidly? I learned that last weekend! Windchill -30F, fun times here in New England.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by JoeAltmaier on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:21AM (#11126344)
...and why we have few/no homeless in my town: it stays around 16F for weeks at a time. And goes negative overnight.

Also, the Emergency Housing Project, an Ecumenical service my UU Church started 20 years ago.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by StavrosK on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:25AM (#11126382)
A solution to the OP's problem presents itself: Make SF colder!
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by staz on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:41AM (#11126994)
another reason to fight global warming !
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by frik on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:32AM (#11126919)
The fewer homeless sleep in public buildings like train/bus stations.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by DINKDINK on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:36AM (#11126468)
>did you know that windows can crack from thermal stress like cookware that you cool too rapidly?

This is called thermal shock [1]. Basically thermal expansion mismatches cause internal stress beyond the material's Ultimate Tensile Stress and causes a fracture. It's the underpinning to how tattoo removal works too.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by scrumper on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:15PM (#11127340)
Please can you elaborate a bit on the tattoo link? Sounds interesting.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by DINKDINK on Tuesday March 01, 2016 @06:38PM (#11207053)
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by runamok on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:32AM (#11126916)
2000 chronic homeless from what I have read. However, the city spends about $40000 per person that is not on the streets. A good article on the last 10 years or so: http://www.sfchronicle.com/archive/item/A-decade-of-homeless... 1 reason there are so many is probably because the city does try to help them and not abuse them like many cities. That and the mild weather...
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knughit on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:16PM (#11127358)
SF cares for a substantial fraction of the entire nation's homeless population, who migrate to SF for weather and public services. SF gets blamed because SF helps homeless folks the most, not the least.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jimmytucson on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:42AM (#11126511)

    > To play devil's advocate, he's right.
You're not really agreeing with him though, are you? He's saying homeless people are an eyesore. You're saying the government should create more homeless shelters. I don't think you guys are even on the same planet in terms of your views.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Lawtonfogle on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:57AM (#11126622)
>He's saying homeless people are an eyesore. You're saying the government should create more homeless shelters.

I think the difference is found in empathy. Take two cases: One, I feel bad when I see a homeless person because my empathy makes me feel bad, and I want to remove that bad feeling and thus I help them. Getting them 'out of sight' might reduce the bad feeling a little, but any time I think of their being homeless people, I still feel bad for them.

Two, I feel bad because the homeless person is making the place look worse. So I want them to be gone. Once they are out of sight, I no longer feel bad.

I think the two above are more similar that many people treat them because of how selfishness and empathy interact, but I do also think their is still a significant difference because one is based off of empathy and the other is based off of pure selfishness.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by patorjk on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:18PM (#11128448)
I think a lot of people fall into both categories. Most people have empathy and most people like beautiful things. What differs is the weight of one feeling vs the other in these types of situations.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ryanlol on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:06AM (#11126711)
He's saying homeless people are an eyesore and trashing the city, that's unquestionably true.

He's also saying the government should fix it, what other options are there but homeless shelters?

I don't get why people are acting like this guy wants to send the homeless to concentration camps and gas them.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by dsaint-pierre on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:16AM (#11126776)
Well, repealing the Ellis Act, for one. You (and he) are looking at this as if the homeless spontaneously came to exist as NPCs in the RPG that is his wonderful techie San Francisco existence rather than identifying the things that led them to this place in life like the Ellis Act, skyrocketing inflation, lack of lower-middle income jobs, etc.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knughit on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:19PM (#11127395)
What? The homeless are here because the city attracts more people than there are room for (development reasons) and because SF spends huge sums to care for homeless immigrants
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by dsaint-pierre on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:34PM (#11127557)
No. 71% of San Francisco's homeless population once lived in the city: http://sfist.com/2016/02/11/71_of_sf_homeless_once_had_homes...

"Seventy-one percent (71%) of respondents reported they were living in San Francisco at the time they most recently became homeless, an increase from 61% in 2013. Of those, nearly half (49%) had lived in San Francisco for 10 years or more. Eleven percent (11%) had lived in San Francisco for less than one year."

What are these "development reasons?" Airbnb? Property owners have had no issue knocking down buildings in places like the Mission to build high-rent properties in their place. There is ample opportunity to satisfy demand for low-to-middle income housing by building upwards which developers choose to ignore in favor of satisfying the rich.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ryanlol on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:01PM (#11128308)
29% is a lot though.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knughit on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:17PM (#11127372)
The article specifically coted the Super Bowl as a positive example. The Super Bowl bullied people away from the venue, didn't help them into homes.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by curun1r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:38PM (#11127586)
The thing that people are missing is how much dealing with this on a day-to-day basis changes you. You can't walk past/through that much human misery without hardening your heart towards it. My commute to work for the past 4 years has taken me through the 6th st corridor. I walk past homeless people, SRO hotels and what I believe is a methadone clinic. People in wheelchairs with diabetic amputations are disturbingly common. And even those with all their limbs seem broken physically in a way that means they'll never be productive members of society, even if they could get past the mental illness/drugs. Any money spent on them is simply softening their descent into death rather than helping them live.

At first, you feel bad for these people. But, over time, it changes you and you stop feeling as much empathy towards them. They're the people yelling at 3am in the morning that make you tired at work the next day. They're the people shitting on the sidewalk and forcing you to jump around it or walk in the street. They're the people leaving uncapped needles on the sidewalks.

And add to this that the situation has gotten significantly worse lately. SF is a powder keg ready to explode. There are two SFs living in close proximity to each other and both headed in opposite directions. As the one SF has gotten richer and the other has gotten poorer and evictions have increased, there's a general feeling of combativeness that's very scary. It's common for people to try to intimidate me on the sidewalks as I walk to work. They stare at me and walk directly at me no matter which side of the sidewalk I attempt to walk on. My projection is that there's a message being delivered..."you may have everything else, but I'm taking the sidewalk." Homeless people will urinate/defecate in the middle of the sidewalk in ways that make it as difficult as possible to avoid. And while it's mostly passive aggression at the moment, it feels like we're not too far off from that aggression turning active. This deeply unhealthy dynamic is why I've chosen to leave SF.

It would take an extraordinary person to be dealing with this on an everyday basis and not try to compartmentalize it in ways that appear cold and unfeeling to people viewing it from the outside. You can't understand the fear, and fear will cause people to do and say things that others would consider unconscionable. You can't understand the hopelessness of the situation that leads you to write those people off a subhuman. Out of sight is really out of mind. And anyone that isn't experiencing this problem on a daily basis isn't going to really understand this open letter. They're going to attribute the tone and callousness of the letter to the individual who wrote it rather than the experiences they've been subjected to.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by sandworm101 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:47AM (#11126058)
And let's see his opinion on the evils of regulations when the city taxes him and/or turns his favourite ping pong parlour into a shelter.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:01AM (#11126173)
Asking for homeless people to be moved out is basically asking for regulations and enforcement which has to be funded from taxes, isn't it. Not all that different from a shelter, except much crueller.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by sheri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:21AM (#11126825)
To be fair, he's wrong and you're wrong. It's not about what he wants to see or not see. He says homelessness is bad because it affects him and his lifestyle. To couch this problem in such a narcissistic way leads to solutions like Super Bowl city (a solution he mentions and actively endorses). It leads to solutions to just resolve the rich lifestyles, and not actually help the homeless. His letter doesn't highlight the problem (like so many commenters here are saying), but just highlights the impact it has to his lifestyle.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by coldtea on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:05AM (#11126206)
>To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless.

Only if people agree, offer their solidarity, and approve the city government of doing so (with their taxes etc too).

Which is exactly what people like him don't allow.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by ves on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:46PM (#11128173)
You shouldn't have to pay any more. Cali already takes an insane amount of your income, and it's not like the spending isn't happening. I think SF spent something like 240mm on homeless last year, which works out to something like 30-70k pp if just handed out as cash.

Paying more to the govt isn't what you should be asking for, rather, you should be asking for a more efficient and accountable govt.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by return0 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:33PM (#11127544)
> Which is exactly what people like him don't allow.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by coldtea on Thursday February 18, 2016 @05:52PM (#11130013)
From actual experiences talking to multiple upper class people who "don't want to see those homeless" that are invariably anti-taxes/government spending for such issues.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by 010a on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:33AM (#11126440)
His wording might have been harsh and maybe he's coming from the wrong viewpoint, but he's ultimately right. Fixing homelessness and mental illness in the right way would be a net benefit to both people like him and the people on the street.

California has the highest income tax in the entire United States. San Francisco is up there among county income tax. Its inexcusable that our star tech capital of the entire world is simultaneously infamous for its homelessness and mental health problems. You can phrase it "I hate looking at these people" or you can phrase it "these people need help"; the right solution remains the same. Fix it.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by viscanti on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:21PM (#11127429)
Of course the city should do more to help the issue. Turning a blind eye to tents on the street (which are illegal) isn't doing enough. It just makes the issues of a poor mental health system even more obvious.

The article is interesting as it's attempting to vilify "rich tech bros". Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems weird to point out that he took his parents to a restaurant that serves Lobster (no word on if they ordered or considered ordering it) and that he once spent $20 on a ticket to a special theater. He's then called a tech bro nearly 10 times, always with the presumption that being a man who works in a tech job is both a "bro" and that because of that he's inherently responsible for everything wrong in the world.

He shouldn't have written his medium post, or at best he could have found a much better way to word it. The city DOES need to treat it's homeless in a more humane way. But I wonder if journalists don't also have some soul searching to do, and if they might want to back off the "All techies are evil" rhetoric which is really the basis of this article.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by FireBeyond on Thursday February 18, 2016 @02:21PM (#11128491)
It's because if you read the article, or his letter, there's very little about "what can be done to help fix or solve this issue" or help these people, and their plight...

and very much about how someone who can afford the nice things in life, a luxurious / extravagant lifestyle by many standards, 'shouldn't have to be subjected to the unpleasantness thereof' and how uncomfortable / annoying it is -for him-.

He's not trying to solve the problem for them, he's trying to solve it for himself. He even says as much, talking about how easy it is to 'sweep the problem away' for Super Bowl. No-one thinks that SF temporarily solved the homeless issue for SB weekend, and he doesn't want it solved either (or makes no real mention of that in this letter), he just wants it swept.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by at-fates-hands on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:07AM (#11126219)
Not sure what kind of solution the government should have.

There's already a myriad of local, state and federal housing programs already in place. Whether its temporary emergency housing, eviction protection, child care services, or in some cases, low income housing and federal subsidies for permanent housing.

There's plenty of safety nets in California, let alone the SF area. If people want to get off the streets, there's an abundance of resources at their disposal. Saying the government isn't doing enough is a bit myopic considering all the local, state and federal help readily available.

http://www.sfhsa.org/76.htm

http://sf-moh.org/index.aspx?page=130

https://www.mercyhousing.org/california

http://www.homeless.org.au/directory/us-california.htm

http://www.freeprintshop.org/download/shelter_english.pdf

http://www.sfcenter.org/resources/housing

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/states/california/h...

http://ssa.ocgov.com/calfresh/calworks/emergency/homeless

http://www.needhelppayingbills.com/html/calworks_homeless_as...

And that's JUST for the homeless services. It doesn't even START to address the free addiction clinics, low cost prescriptions, free health care clinics, food shelves, and other resources homeless people might need help to get off the streets.

In my mind the government is going way above and beyond trying to solve this issue.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by joosters on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:11AM (#11126254)
How many of these myriad services are already running at full capacity? Just because there are homelessness support groups out there doesn't magically mean that there is enough support.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by nxzero on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:46AM (#11126546)
More to that point, most public resources are not required to report that they have exhausted their capacity. Further, such resources often actively waste the time of those looking for support under the pretext that resources are available and they need to prove there is demand that exceeds their capacity; even when year after year it's clear that documenting demand will not result in additional resources.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by SomeStupidPoint on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:19AM (#11126327)
In my city, most of the programs to help homeless people have waitlists on the order of years.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by kefka on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:31AM (#11126425)
I live in Bloomington, IN.

We have (Way) better than average care for homless in probably a 3 hour driving distance. There's tons of services available. And that too is a problem. Every service we provide means that more homeless come and flock to our city. Ideally, we'd like to provide for everyone, out of a sense of human decency.

The only problem with that is we could provide for everyone in the county, we cannot do the same for south central indiana, parts of Kentucky, parts of Ohio, and parts of Illinois, and wherever they come from via bus. What started as a problem of 100 people disenfranchised now is a perpetual 400.

The solution, as ugly as it may seem, needs to be a cross-country (national level) anti-homelessness mission. That means comprehensive low/no barrier essentials, possibly even a minimum income. Until a national answer happens, any community that offers above and beyond will get punished with multiplying numbers that far exceed any local budgets.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by pfarnsworth on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:55AM (#11127130)
You forgot the most important link:

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record...

SF spends $241 million per year on homeless, with no accountability and no ability to track results. They are NOT going above and beyond, they are wasting money with no improvement in results.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by at-fates-hands on Thursday February 18, 2016 @03:45PM (#11129167)
Funny, I did some research and found this article which seems to know where most of the money is going. So what happened in two years between my article in 2014 and your article that came out in 2016?

How are you able to track this and then in two years, you suddenly have no idea where all the money is going?

http://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/sf-spends-1657-m...

The lion’s share of the funding goes toward supportive housing, which provides specialized and intensive services to the recently homeless as they adjust to a new way of life, with some combating drug addiction and receiving mental health care.

The City spends $81.5 million annually for 6,355 supportive units, or about $13,000 per unit. Of the 6,436 homeless individuals counted in last year’s homeless count, 3,401 were on the streets without shelter while the other homeless people counted resided in shelters, transitional housing, resource centers, residential treatment, jail or hospitals.

And

Even though The City has built 3,000 new supportive-housing units since 2002, the homeless population has remained mostly flat. The population has ranged from 6,248 to 6,514 since 2005, after dropping from 8,640 in 2002.

You claim "zero accountability" but there's several paragraphs and a large graph showing where the money goes in your article. Not sure how you fix "accountability" if your city continues to build housing for these people and continue toe expand their budget to help them. What else do you want them to do???? Most other cities would see this and spend the money elsewhere and cut the spending on these programs in a heartbeat.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by pfarnsworth on Thursday February 18, 2016 @03:57PM (#11129256)
Not track the money, track the results. We have no idea if this is helping to decrease homelessness or not. There are no metrics. That's a huge amount of money to spend, and not know if it's actually helping, or if the money is just being wasted.

Accountability means that if it doesn't work or if the money is being wasted, then someone needs to be held accountable.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by cylinder on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:03AM (#11126677)
I disagree. Handling this on a city level is absolutely wrong. That's how it is in NYC and why taxes are so high in the city. This needs to be a shared expense and program on the federal level. Otherwise, you increase the tax burden in SF and other cities/states compete in a race to the bottom, luring away businesses with their lower taxes.

Homelessness, poverty are not San Francisco's problem, they are America's problem. If the rest of America takes issue with that, perhaps the Union should be questioned.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Lawtonfogle on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:12AM (#11126267)
>the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless.

This helps the short term homeless. Long term homeless often have problems that can't be met just by giving them housing.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by tim333 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:21AM (#11126346)
If you give them housing they may still have problems but at least they won't be homeless.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by leshow on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:52AM (#11126588)
by definition giving them housing would make them not homeless.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Lawtonfogle on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:20PM (#11127933)
Assuming they would accept it and stay in it. As I said, that would work great for the short term homeless, but for many (not all) of the long term homeless, they have mental issues strong enough that they would end up homeless again.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wpietri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:04AM (#11126687)
The devil doesn't seem to need more help, so maybe you should question your hobbies. That aside, what both you and he miss: the problem with the pain, struggle and despair of homelessness is not a comfortable person having to see it. It is a person having to experience the pain, struggle, and despair of homelessness.

As a San Francisco with 5x his tenure, I am entirely proud that SF has not swept the homeless problem out of sight. I would rather that everybody were safe, whole, and housed. But as long as we have the problems we do, I would rather they be on public display. Because fixing them is going to require public action.

If that is uncomfortable for him, then good. He should be fucking uncomfortable that people are suffering in the streets. I am, and anybody with half a heart is. As long as the pain exists among his fellow residents, he should see it. We all should.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by skewart on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:58PM (#11127741)
His post was incredibly tone-deaf, and he comes across as an entitled jerk. That said, there's a big difference between being reminded of other peoples' suffering and being assaulted. Leaning on someone's car, yelling at someone, and interrupting a theater are all acts of aggression. It's understandable that he's upset. Nobody should be subjected to this kind of behavior.

Honestly you come across as kind of callous by not seeming able to empathize with why he might be upset.

Of course saying that just sweeping people away is an acceptable solution is incredibly heartless. That's where he lost my sympathy. At the same time, embracing the status and also kinda heartless. It doesn't help anyone, except for people who are neither living on the street nor being confronted by people living on the street.

People often seem to think we should give the homeless and drug addicts and mentally ill free reign to do whatever they want as some sort of act of kindness. I think that's belittling and infantalizing. Nobody should punished harshly for acting a little obscene in public from time to time, but we should do something so that people actually can get help while also enforcing laws that ensure public space can be shared and enjoyed by everyone.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by wpietri on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:33PM (#11131561)
Being upset is reasonable, and I do empathize with that. Asking the police to make the homeless disappear because wealthy market winners feel uncomfortable is not reasonable.

> Leaning on someone's car, yelling at someone, and interrupting a theater are all acts of aggression.

He describes exactly none of those instances as even directed at him or his family. I get why people find mental illness to be troubling, and why they might feel unsafe. But he described nothing that was aggressive. Your feelings, although important, do not prove anything about what other people intend.

> People often seem to think we should give the homeless and drug addicts and mentally ill free reign to do whatever they want as some sort of act of kindness.

That is a ridiculous straw man. If they "seem" to think that to you, I don't believe you're trying very hard to understand what they actually think.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by st3v3r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:05PM (#11127787)
Blaming it solely on government is a pretty meaningless and shallow look at it. There are many, many actors at play who have all made decisions of their own volition which has lead to this. Land developers, tech companies, VCs, zoning commissions, they all have a hand in it.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by Shivetya on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:59AM (#11126639)
Every consider that both the climate and the abundance of social programs could be exaggerating SF homeless issue for many? Simply put, its a good place to go and this word gets around. In other words, its good having such support systems but residents must understand that for that all people gravitate to cities that meet their needs. Techies and the like want the climate, the history, and high tech goods and services they desire. The homeless want the climate and access to the social services provided. One city can be the same refuge to vastly different social levels.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by beatpanda on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:10AM (#11126734)
Yes, people often consider that, and then they look at the data:

http://sfgov.org/lhcb/sites/sfgov.org.lhcb/files/2015%20San%...

70% of homeless people in San Francisco were housed residents of San Francisco before the became homeless, and most of the remaining 30% were in a city adjacent to San Francisco before coming to SF after becoming homeless.

Also, the idea that social services are "widely available" to homless people in San Francisco is a farce. For example, there is only 1 available shelter bed for every 5 homeless people.

Source: I worked as a service provider for homeless people in SF and I've seen our supposed "generous benefits" up close.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knughit on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:11AM (#11126742)
The government is our employees, not some Other power above is. We need to make the changes. Make demands , build consensus, and run for office if needed.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by pj_mukh on Thursday February 18, 2016 @05:36PM (#11129911)
You are right, except we can't have that conversation till the entitled techies in the bay area just shut up for a sec. Our flooding of the market has showed how the lack of supply is the problem, but like you correctly pointed out, the deportation of techies is not the solution. But we certainly should not be writing articles like this, it makes solving the problem that much harder.

There are a lot of activists (mostly behind the scenes) trying to increase the supply the side of the economics. However, the weird alliance between the NIMBY's and progressives in the city keep pointing at the entitled techies (like the author of the article) to show how the techie's are part of the problem.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by joosters on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:08AM (#11126233)
So how many people are going to pay more taxes to raise the money for the government to do all these things?

In the end, it still comes back to the people. It's not the government's fault.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by refurb on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:23AM (#11126366)
San Francisco has a $156M annual budget to address homelessness. That's not a small amount of money. First let's make sure that it's being spend efficiently.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by rahimnathwani on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:42AM (#11126514)
That's over $20k per homeless person, per year[0]

[0] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-homeless-populatio...

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by sandworm101 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:28AM (#11126405)
Or, rather than get bogged down in never-ending "efficient government" debates, we can increase spending today and simultaneously address efficiencies. Far too often the demand "efficiency first" is just a means to delay the actual commitment of resources.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by rahimnathwani on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:13PM (#11131487)
If your doesn't work, do you upgrade your CPU or re-write your code? Sure, if your code sort of works but is maybe only 50% as efficient as you want, go ahead and upgrade your CPU.

But if your code is O(n^3) and just doesn't ever give you an answer, upgrading your CPU is throwing good money after bad.

The current system and people are not able to solve the problem, even after spending >$22k per homeless person per year. How much more do you suggest spending, and why do you think it would make any difference to outcomes?

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by knowaveragejoe on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:14AM (#11126763)
But what if the already non-trivial sum isn't being spent in the best way possible? It sounds like a lot of that is going to landlords in the form of rent; granted that's a burden off the people living there.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by joosters on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:57AM (#11126624)
Most of which is spent on rent, so it ends up in the pockets of the landowners. And it doesn't go as far as it needs, thanks to the crazy high rents. It's a vicious circle.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by refurb on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:43AM (#11127010)
And you can blame the city's policies for the high rents since they've absolutely refused to build more housing.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by zo1 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @03:55PM (#11129235)
>"So how many people are going to pay more taxes to raise the money for the government to do all these things?"

If you were to ask me, I'd say "not me". And not because I don't want it done, but because I already pay taxes with the assumption that this is what a government of a supposedly enlightened society should be spending it on. I.e. to care for its weakest members, the ones that need it the most.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by jboggan on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:14PM (#11127884)
Maybe this isn't a city government problem but a federal one. What would you think about re-enacting homesteading? About half the land in this country is federally owned. Why not offer 50 acres and a trailer to whomever would be willing to work and improve it?
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by x1024 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:47AM (#11126553)
Yep, he's right. But like many a programmer, he just does not have a way with words.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by leshow on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:53AM (#11126593)
he's not right. his position is that he shouldn't have to 'see' homelessness. he doesn't care if it exists or not, just so long as it's out of his view.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by curun1r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @12:47PM (#11127649)
Not having to see homelessness sounds harsh.

But what about not having to dodge shit, piss and uncapped needles on the street? What about not having to be asked for money constantly? What about not having to hear people yelling at the top of their lungs at 3am? What about not having to feel unsafe?

If it were just seeing people being unobtrusively homeless, there would be no problem, even if they were plainly visible. His phrasing may seem harsh to people that aren't not exposed to the situation on a daily basis. But let's try to not look for reasons to be offended in this situation and, instead, search for the meaning behind the words. Because there's a serious problem that needs fixing in San Francisco.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by orthecreedence on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:06PM (#11127800)
> I know people are frustrated about gentrification happening in the city, but the reality is, we live in a free market society

He is free to be rich while others are poor because of the free market. Seems like his free market has created a number of people who leave urine and feces in the streets and ask people for money.

He wants the benefit of a free market without having to deal with the consequences.

Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by curun1r on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:51PM (#11128211)
He's not appealing to the free market to fix the problem. He's appealing to his city's government, to whom he pays taxes and has a reasonable expectation that of dealing with problems like these.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by kaonashi on Thursday February 18, 2016 @10:43AM (#11126517)
Homelessness is a byproduct of capitalism in the first place, in feudal societies there is no homelessness.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by mason240 on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:05AM (#11126698)
Great satire.
Re:SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle,... by kaonashi on Thursday February 18, 2016 @11:52AM (#11127103)
I'm just wrong.