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Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eksith on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @04:51PM (#6175528)
Technically, the man did nothing wrong. His bank agreed to the altered terms.

I've seen some credit card and bank card forms that include language which make the agreement void if its terms are altered in any way, but if it doesn't have that, there's nothing really stopping you from doing the same.

That said, legal teams for credit card companies and banks are notorious for finding ways to beat you with technicalities and/or drag their feet through the court system so your own bills rack up. They can claim bad faith, and/or fraud (which is a hot button) and add to the mix a DA willing to create a name for him/herself by putting away a scumbag white-collar "criminal" (I.E. Joe, the Photoshop user) and you've got a lot of risk behind it.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:51PM (#6176212)
I'm going to comment as if the same thing hypothetically happened in the US, because I have no idea what Russian contract law is like.

Regarding criminal fraud: That might be tough to prove. See, for example, this part of Virginia's fraud law:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-178

Note that merely obtaining a signature under false pretenses is a crime. Of course, the definition of "false pretenses" is the sticking point. Technically, the customer did not make any false representations. It seems he merely expected the bank not to notice his "proposed" contractual changes. That would not seem to satisfy the elements of the crime, though I wouldn't bet my own freedom on that.

Regarding bad faith: It would be interesting to see if the court would find a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It's iffy. Generally, such a breach would arise from either party's conduct outside the signing of the contract itself. I.e. you do something underhanded to thwart the other party's enjoyment of his contractual rights, without breaching any specific term in the contract.

Could a breach of the implied covenant arise from the negotiation process itself? In my cursory search, I didn't come across any cases like that, but they could exist. In this case, there does seem to be some willful deception on the customer's part. One could argue, based on the circumstances, that he expected the bank not to notice his alterations. Perhaps this would be considered bad faith.

One could also argue that the contract is void as there was no meeting of the minds. This can be a difficult case to make when there is a written contract. Nonetheless, in unusual circumstances, which this appears to be, a written contract can be voided for this reason. Here, one could argue that the two parties thought they were signing contracts containing radically different text, and thus there was no meeting of the minds.

Note that you can't just claim this any time you want to get out of a written contract. The default assumption is that your signature indicates you read and understood the contract. You have to show some unusual circumstance--such as one party's surreptitious alteration prior to signing--if you want to claim there was no meeting of the minds. And even then, a win is far from guaranteed.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by dalore on Thursday August 08, 2013 @05:02AM (#6177920)
If the bank can claim fraud because you changed the terms and conditions hoping they wouldn't notice, could we claim fraud for them sending the initial T&C in such small print hoping we wouldn't notice them? It should go both ways as the banks are trying to hope you don't read the terms and conditions.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by diminoten on Thursday August 08, 2013 @10:49AM (#6179249)
The bank can claim that all it wants, but this whole idea of "I didn't read the contract I signed" has never been a valid defense. Even in the case of those online Terms of Use, only recently has anyone been able to get a court to agree that they're even slightly unreasonable. But a physical contract like this? Sure, you can say, "I didn't read it", but the judge will just say, "You probably should have." and rule against you if that's your only defense.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Thursday August 08, 2013 @03:01PM (#6181008)
You're right that "I didn't read the contract" is an invalid defense in the general case. However, this is an unusual situation. The peculiar circumstances would likely lead the bank to believe they were signing a different contract which they had in fact read. And there is (arguably) some willful deception on the customer's part.

In other words, it's not just carelessness on the bank's part. That alone would not be a sufficient argument. Rather, it's carelessness coupled with the customer's willful exploitation of that carelessness. That may be enough to tip the scales in the bank's favor.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by diminoten on Thursday August 08, 2013 @04:01PM (#6181478)
I don't think it will be, but it would be a landmark case if it were tried here in the US and the decision went in favor of the bank, I believe.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by smsm42 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @10:15PM (#6176970)
>>> Regarding criminal fraud: That might be tough to prove.

The problem is that fraud charge may be hard to prove, but may be much easier to initiate. And criminal investigation, even not resulting yet in a charge, may be rather annoying matter. For example, they could get (given a friendly judge) an order to seize all your computer equipment to look for signs of fraudulent activity. And keep "looking" for years, while you can't use them. And so on. If they arrange a cooperation of a friendly prosecutor, they can cost you lots of money while never getting to the court. Since they are paid by the taxpayers and you're not, you lose.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Fuxy on Thursday August 08, 2013 @10:38AM (#6179157)
He couldn't afford to pay the credit card bills after 2 years what makes you think this guy has a lot of electronics in his house.

I would wager he probably has 1 crappy old computer a printer and a smartphone (just my guess as an eastern European).

He could care less if all that crap gets locked off.

As far as I can tell even that fact that he kept his end of the contract to the best of his abilities for 2 years can be used as proof that he isn't fraudster.

A fraudster would have done that a lot sooner.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Thursday August 08, 2013 @03:07PM (#6181044)
If we assume that at least some unethical prosecutors exist (which seems verifiable) then this risk exists any time you do something to annoy someone who has influence over said unethical prosecutors. So then it's no longer a question of what the law is, but of pure, cynical politics. When you get into that realm, all bets are off.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eridius on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:41PM (#6176417)
Under normal circumstances, there is no negotiation when a bank sends you a credit card application. They expect you to just fill it out and send it back unaltered. Since this is the expected way to handle credit card application contracts, I expect the bank could easily argue that there was no meeting of the minds, as they could not have been expected to re-read the entire contract looking for alterations, and in fact it's reasonable to argue that the man who altered the contract did so knowing the bank would never notice.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jvdh on Thursday August 08, 2013 @02:09AM (#6177558)
The bank sends you an agreement that you did not ask for. Why would it be different for the customer to send back a signed contract the bank did not ask for?

Customers are always cautioned to read the fine print. I would not know why this would not be valid advice for banks (or any other business) as well.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by brazzy on Thursday August 08, 2013 @05:53AM (#6178031)
Because the bank can reasonably expect to be sent back the contract they sent out, not an altered copy, unless they are specifically told that there are changes. If the guy sent his altered contract with a cover letter that mentions changes (which the bank ignored), he may have a case. Otherwise it's clearly deceptive.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by gritzko on Thursday August 08, 2013 @07:17AM (#6178229)
Because a hare shouldn't bite a wolf. That's against established business practices and customs.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by mcguire on Thursday August 08, 2013 @11:46AM (#6179633)
Weirdly, there's this paragraph:

"Alexeev then sent his updated agreement to the bank, and shortly thereafter received the bank's signed and certified copy, as well as a credit card."

It's been a while since I signed up for a new credit card, but I don't recall getting back anything "signed and certified." Terms and what-not, sure, but that sounds like the bank sent back his (updated) contract.

Apparently, I've gotten more houses than credit cards, because that's exactly how you handle contract negotiations there.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:51PM (#6176913)
>they could not have been expected to re-read the entire contract looking for alterations //

I don't think a bank will want to go down the line of arguing the contract shouldn't be binding because they shouldn't have to read the small print - that sounds like an overall loss for the bank in general.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by smsm42 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @10:21PM (#6176998)
The argument is not that you shouldn't read the small print - the bank lawyers know what the small print means - the argument is that they can't look for tiny changes in known small print if they're reasonably expecting it to be identical to what they sent.

That's like I would initiate a contract with you and after we read it together and you agree it's what you want to sign I covertly slip a page into the pack that completely changes the terms and trick you into signing it without you actually knowing it's there. You can reasonably claim you intended to sign the original one, not the one I secretly modified - and I expect the court be more sympathetic to you than to my claims "you should have watched my hands all the time!" Of course, it'd require you proving that I did this, but if you can, your case sounds pretty strong to me.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by krichman on Thursday August 08, 2013 @12:00AM (#6177268)
Slipping in an extra paper is not the same at all; you are adding terms to the contract that the signer could not possibly have seen. By changing the small print you are being sneaky, but they had a chance to fully examine what they were agreeing to and were lax in that.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by mrweasel on Thursday August 08, 2013 @04:31AM (#6177849)
>The argument is not that you shouldn't read the small print - the bank lawyers know what the small print means - the argument is that they can't look for tiny changes in known small print if they're reasonably expecting it to be identical to what they sent.

Doesn't this case show that they cannot reasonably expect the contract to be identical to what they sent, in respect to all future contracts?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by zenith2037 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @01:46PM (#6180545)
The difference is that this.

1 - The bank signed a copy then gave one to the customer to sign. If the customer changed the print at this point, it would no longer be valid.

2 - What this guy did, the bank gave him a copy, he modified it, then signed it, then sent it back, to which the bank approved. Which is still technically valid.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by gcb0 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @04:38AM (#6177862)
Yeah, because that's not what banks do every year...

Your contact probably has aterm about them being allowed to change the contact and probably not even notifying you.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:57PM (#6176483)
This is what I would try to do if I were the bank. They would have to write off the credit card balance, because voiding the contract cuts both ways. But considering that the bank is potentially liable for much greater damages, it might make sense.

Will it work? It's hard to say. Courts are generally skeptical of the excuse that "I didn't read the contract."

Perhaps it comes down to this: Does a party who makes proposed edits have any obligation to point out such edits? Or does the responsibility lie wholly with each party to read the contract in its final form?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by gcb0 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @04:34AM (#6177854)
Contact is a contract. You are supposed to read.

Good lucky going to court sayingthat you only read the credit card brochure so you thought you didn't have to read the contact before signing... Whichis exactly what the bank did.

If the bank get out of this one, and Russian contract law is the same, it will be going over all the precedence to this date.

My bet is that neither side will have it all. Contact will be upheld, but values will be ruled out of some legal common sense.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Thursday August 08, 2013 @02:56PM (#6180981)
I have found some more info on good faith and fair dealing as it pertains to this type of case. Robert Summers' 1968 article "'Good Faith' in General Contract Law and the Sales Provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code" has a section on bad faith in the negotiation phase of contracts. That's exactly what we need.

I don't want to quote at length, and there's no particular passage that nails this case, but my overall sense from the article is that the contract could be voided for want of mutual assent. Or that perhaps even the contract could be judicially modified back to the bank's version.

Anyway, here's the most concise (heavily edited) quotation I could find from the article:

"There are many ways, short of fraud, by which one party can take advantage of another in driving a bargain. For example...his disinclination to read a printed form...At the least, if a person consciously takes advantage of such weaknesses, he acts in bad faith."

But, as of 1968, he said: "Case law under this section is scant." Has this changed? Quite probably. Do I have a Lexus or Westlaw account to find out? No.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Justsignedup on Thursday August 08, 2013 @09:53AM (#6178889)
I am honestly rooting for the guy. The way these contracts are made put the full burden on the customer and absolve the contract makers. I see similar things done with recent xbox TOS where you revoke your own right to make a class action lawsuit.

But in the end of the day, it's irrelevant, banks will use stronger language next time.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Thursday August 08, 2013 @03:13PM (#6181087)
I'm not going to say that that all banks are angelic and innocent. But I would take the long view on this issue, and come down in favor of honesty and transparency in contractual negotiation. You may not like the victim in this case, but what if the same thing were done to a more sympathetic victim by a less sympathetic adversary?

> banks will use stronger language next time

Except that such language could be deleted by the customer. In this case, a customer has demonstrated an ability to make arbitrary changes to the contract. Assuming he is legally savvy, he should be able to alter any terms that would damage his case. This, of course, assumes that the contract is held to be enforceable. I still have strong doubts about that.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by mcbutterbunz on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:24PM (#6176344)
Could "false pretenses" also include the letter head on the document? If you were to scan the document, change the lettering and produce an exact replica except for the fine print, could that fall under false representation since the bank was not the author of the document.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:53PM (#6176476)
Possibly. Though I could also argue that I've been in contract negotiations where drafts are edited by both parties and passed back and forth, yet one party's letterhead remains on the top. In other words, I could say the letterhead does not, as a matter of accepted convention, indicate that one party was the sole drafter.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:29PM (#6175783)
This is the less well understood aspect of robo-signing. And a variation in the Russian system, since in the US you don't get back a "signed agreement" instead you either accept the terms or your don't. If you change them you need to go to the bank and have them sign the changes, and that triggers a discussion about "What changes?" and that leads to the Bank saying, "Uh, no, guess you don't want a card, ok."

But in organizations where such things are routinely signed by a clerical worker and returned (things like alarm service come to mind) you can make these changes and sometimes get away with them. At least in one case where I asked the clerk at Safeway to sign off on an altered terms and conditions on their loyalty card the manager came over and said that nobody in the store was authorized to sign on Safeway's behalf.

Clearly that did not work for the Russian bank which has already had the agreement litigated.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eksith on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:41PM (#6175846)
That's an interesting point.

We take credit card/bank card forms for granted in that nothing is returned to you except another copy of the same (hopefully) agreement, the card and monthly statement. Not the copy of the document you signed with their corresponding signature.

I wonder if this case will prompt some changes in the way they conduct their card affairs.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Silhouette on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @11:36PM (#6177219)
We take credit card/bank card forms for granted in that nothing is returned to you except another copy of the same (hopefully) agreement

Really? I'm surprised by that. In recent years I've only signed new bank paperwork as a company director, but in all cases where that happened in real time in a branch, I've asked that they make a photocopy of exactly what I signed for me to keep for my company's records. They have always done so immediately, without objection, and without the signed version leaving my sight.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:14PM (#6176797)
Of course the discussion here has made be a bit curious, I wonder if you could "sign up banks" instead of having them sign up you. Lets say you mail a bank your preferred credit card contract to the bank, which basically said "by sending me a card you agree to the terms of this contract." and then layout the card contract you would be willing to accept. I wonder what the conversion rate would be. I'm guessing 0 but without evidence that is just a guess. Might be fun to run the experiment.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by krichman on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @11:54PM (#6177249)
Do they still send cards in the mail? It would be interesting to see if something they sent as an unrelated advertisement would be covered by your contract if you can prove they received the contract and the card was mailed after.

This could be a whole new era of spam prevention, by being personally as full of it as every EULA. Just send out contracts, "by contacting me in any way you agree to the following...". Companies would be terrified to send anything at all to anyone.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Havoc on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:02PM (#6175961)
Round here (ZA) its fairly common to see a party having a copy of the contract signed only by the counterparty. i.e. Each party ends up with a contract signed by the counter party. Technically that makes neither copy a valid contract, but - close enough I guess.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by mcosta on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @08:24PM (#6176594)
Here too. And has its sense. You have the proof the other party agreed the contract. I do not need to sign to demostrate I am too. My word right now is sufficient.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @11:02PM (#6177126)
This reminds me of the diplomatic practices of ancient mesopotamia -- when an agreement between two city-kings was finalized, each king got a master tablet listing half the agreement -- all of his own obligations. At no point did a symmetrical tablet listing every clause of the agreement ever exist.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eru on Thursday August 08, 2013 @01:23AM (#6177460)
Depends on what a contract is. In most law systems the contract is not the piece of paper it's written on.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Havoc on Saturday August 10, 2013 @03:00AM (#6190303)
Fair enough. Now that I think about it, the half signed contract will likely stick but its going to be one hell of a day in court.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by sciguy77 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:42PM (#6175853)
> I asked the clerk at Safeway to sign off on an altered terms and conditions on their loyalty card

What? Why?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:06PM (#6175991)
They were pushing a loyalty card, I added the clause that they couldn't collect or use any behavioural data collected from this card in any marketing, coupon, or other research program, nor could they share that information with with anyone not employed as a full time employee of Safeway Inc.

They didn't go for it :-)

Back when my kids were young and we had a neighborhood baby sitting co-op, all the Mom's met once a week. We set up a program where we got 15 different cards, every week we put all the cards in a basket at the beginning of the get together, then everyone took a card when they left (the basket was shaken up to randomize cards). That gave everyone a card to use but only aggregate statistics on the whole group rather than individual statistics.

The name was always Jane Smith.

These days Safeway has "fixed" that practice by tying gas rewards to a particular card number. That forces people to use the same card if they want to get gas rewards. I don't know but I suspect it was in response to activities like ours which mitigated their efforts to collect data.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by lotharbot on Thursday August 08, 2013 @12:14AM (#6177306)
In grad school, there was one office door that had an envelope taped to it marked "Safeway shuffle" or something like that, with an explanation to take a card and leave a card. It had a similar effect.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by squeaky on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:48PM (#6176449)
I have had at least three Safeway cards issued to me without having filed any paperwork. Each time the card was issued the clerk asked whether I already had a card. I responded in the negative. The clerk pulled a card out from under the till or a drawer, scanned the card to apply a discount, and then handed me the card to keep.

In fact, you can often keep the activated card (at all kinds of stores) even if they do ask you to fill in some papers. Just ask to take the forms home to fill them in and return later and take the card, too.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:18PM (#6176814)
This is true, and your buying instruments (unless you always pay cash) or even your time of purchase/store choice will correlate out those three cards as all "you". We are very much creatures of habit and this is what Safeway and people like Target rely upon.

Now without the baby sitting co-op to randomize data I've offered my card to people ahead of me in line who don't have one, but again the gas rewards are changing that equation as well.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by zwily on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @08:48PM (#6176685)
They can still tie the card to you if you ever use a credit card with it.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by dredmorbius on Thursday August 08, 2013 @06:14AM (#6178071)
Or pay by check.

I've long since avoided Safeway (going on two decades), but back when I both visited the store and had a card, but under a different name (usually some variant of "Fred Flintstone" or "Mickey Mouse"), I found that my actual name eventually ended up on the receipt if I every paid by check.

Lesson: don't pay by check.

Lesson: don't patronize stores with shopper surveillance cards.

Most recent notable experience: a few visits to Border's Books, in which the store's "loyalty card" was pushed ever more vigorously. I responded "no, the NSA's already listening to my phone calls and reading my emails, no need for them to get my reading list as well" (this was years before Snowden, though after the AT&T listening room was revealed). The cashier was impressed by my integrity, and commented as much, as I paid cash for my purchase.

The last time I was asked if I had their card was during the final week of the store's liquidation sale. And I was thinking 1) why even bother and 2) where will that data go after the company shuts down (it turns out it was bought by Barnes & Nobel, which may itself go the way of Borders before too long).

So. Yeah. I'll pass.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:50PM (#6176911)
Or you enter a competition [with card number] or use a coupon they posted out to you.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by DrSbaitso on Thursday August 08, 2013 @12:43AM (#6177369)
Many stores let you enter your phone number on a keypad if you've forgotten your loyalty card at home. If you don't feel like signing up for a store's card to get a discount, just try entering 867-5309 (from the Jenny song) in your local area code. 99% of the time it works!
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Thursday August 08, 2013 @12:17PM (#6179873)
For anyone who asked my phone number i always used 555-1212 which was the 'universal' number for directory assistance for a long time. If people questioned it I said, call that number, ask for me, they will tell you the number to call :-)
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by nhaehnle on Thursday August 08, 2013 @02:45AM (#6177645)
These days Safeway has "fixed" that practice by tying gas rewards to a particular card number. That forces people to use the same card if they want to get gas rewards. I don't know but I suspect it was in response to activities like ours which mitigated their efforts to collect data.

As a non-USian who does not know this system, can somebody please explain what "gas rewards" are and why they would prevent the kind of card shuffling explained by ChuckMcM?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ChuckMcM on Thursday August 08, 2013 @11:06AM (#6179345)
Depending on your purchases at Safeway (grocery store) a partner gas (petrol) station (Chevron) will give you $0.10 - $0.80 discount per gallon of gas. For that to work you have to present to the gas station the same Safeway "club card" that you used to buy your groceries.

The size of the discount is tied to the amount of purchases made with that card present. So if you make a lot of purchases you get a bigger discount per gallon at the gas station.

If you share the card or exchange it with others, the first one to use the discount gets that savings, the next person does not. The discount resets on use, and it can be re-established by the next set of purchases on the card.

What that does is creates an economic incentive for someone to use the same card (maximize purchases to maximize discount) and not share it (discount is one time only, and to the current holder of the card.)

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by RealCasually on Thursday August 08, 2013 @02:56AM (#6177656)
Something like $0.10/gal off, and tied between your Safeway loyalty account and credit card you use to buy your gas.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Graham24 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @05:15AM (#6177952)
oh, you mean petrol? I thought safeway was in the business of supplying natural gas to homes.

you could still pool all the cards and split the reward between you, couldn't you?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by sharth on Thursday August 08, 2013 @11:04AM (#6179333)
Safeway would be considered a grocery store or supermarket. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grocery_store

In the US, most large grocery store offer a card that you can use which gives you various rewards, and in turn allows them to perform analytics on their customer base.

Historically, these rewards were related to coupons for products in the store. However, this means that there is no benefit to using your particular card instead of someone else's.

More recently, the grocery stores have added other bonuses. The one that I'm most familiar with is for fuel / petrol. They team up with some fuel brand, say exxon, and when you've purchased enough on your loyalty card, you get something like $0.05 of your per gallon fuel costs.

The scheme with the poster above breaks down, because you need the physical loyalty card to use the fuel discount, and it's unlikely that everyone is refueling their car an equal amount each week, and that everyone is purchasing an equivalent amount of product at the store each week.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by dm2 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @12:14AM (#6177307)
What are you people so afraid of? It's standard marketing. You go in a database with millions of others and your data is aggregated and analyzed. Nobody is hunting you down based on what products you purchase from the grocery store.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by sk5t on Thursday August 08, 2013 @01:09AM (#6177431)
Are you so sure that the data couldn't be useful in the future? Perhaps the grocery and health insurance industries might team up to identify folks with unhealthy diets, or unusually high consumption of prescription or OTC medications.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by dm2 on Thursday August 08, 2013 @01:42AM (#6177498)
Hopefully our representatives will pass laws preventing such things. Many systems in the US are flawed, but hopefully we are moving in the right direction and our privacy will be protected by consumer protection agencies. Yes, everyone who signs up for programs such as rewards cards are able to find out the stipulations and use of data, but it's unreasonable to assume that every participant can predict the full scope of their actions.

Same goes for every one of the thousands of products we purchase, isn't it a waste of time, money, and national health to put the responsibility of researching products and services in the hands of individuals? Why are companies allowed to sell me snake-oil, cigarettes, and other harmful products?

Why isn't there a law that prevents marketing data from being tied to personal identifiable information?

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by xsmasher on Thursday August 08, 2013 @01:16AM (#6177446)
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by dlhavema on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:42PM (#6176168)
That's a really clever way to randomize the data!
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:06PM (#6175990)
Some people aren't as good as some other people at picking their battles, was my takeaway.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jarrett on Thursday August 08, 2013 @03:19PM (#6181127)
There are significant security flaws in the ways that contracts are traditionally executed. This case illustrates just one of those flaws. Other flaws include alteration after signing, signature copying and forgery, and repudiation (meaning "I didn't sign that"). Most of these arise from the information security weaknesses inherent in paper documents and emailed PDFs.

I have given a lot of thought to this problem. I even had a startup once devoted to solving it. My current thinking is that some form of digital signatures--perhaps PGP--is the best solution to all of this. As I discussed in a previous HN thread, we have a long way to go before the PGP user experience is acceptable for most computer-literate people. (When I say "user experience," I mean much more than the GUI. I mean the whole process of learning about PGP, creating keypairs, signing keys, etc..)

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by jlgreco on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:02PM (#6175613)
> I've seen some credit card and bank card forms that include language which make the agreement void if its terms are altered in any way

Couldn't part of your alterations include the removal of that section? Just strike that out, in addition to the other changes you are making.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eksith on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:11PM (#6175660)
I doubt that would work. Besides, the ones I've seen include a link to the original text on their website as well. Now if I take a screenshot of that (or maybe hit Archive.org for it) at the time of signing and if the text is different, I may be able to claim that the bank is forcing me to follow an agreement different from the one I signed.

But that's an extremely long shot and it still needs to rely on the bank fudging the records first.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by ripter on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:13PM (#6175675)
He changed the url in the contract to point to his own website with his version of the contract.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eksith on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:39PM (#6175839)
Ah, touché! I left out that part. I guess then it really only matters that the bank accepted the altered terms.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by IanCal on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @04:58PM (#6175578)
> Technically, the man did nothing wrong. His bank agreed to the altered terms.

Yep, which is why he won the first case. The terms are ridiculous though (fee of $200,000 if the bank cancels the card), which is why I would expect it to be deemed excessive and thrown out (same as EULAs that demand someones firstborn).

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by eksith on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:05PM (#6175627)
Yeah, thrown out or severely reduced probably. It's pretty obvious he was very confident (and maybe a bit foolhardy) doing this or he wouldn't have put such a large number.

I'm curious as to whether he's done something similar previously.

Side note: There's a little-known legal provision that lets people sue a tele/direct-marketer if you ask them to take you off their list and they still keep contacting you. You have to take down the company name, get the name of the caller and ask them if they have "do not contact/call" and to put you on it. If they keep calling you after that (I think 3 times is the limit within 30 days or so), you can take them to small claims court.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by gnicholas on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:36PM (#6175825)
A court might not give him everything that he's asking for, but this situation isn't exactly like a EULA. Those are contracts of adhesion: drafted entirely by one party and offered on a take-it-or-leave-it basis to a (generally) less-sophisticated party. Courts have special rules about construing provisions in those situations, but such rules wouldn't necessarily apply here (since the contractual language was the product of joint drafting). Of course, I'm not a Russian lawyer, so my 2 cents are probably worth more like 2 rubles....
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Elepsis on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:29PM (#6176116)
Given that 1 Ruble is worth about $0.03 at current exchange rates, your 2 cents are actually more like 6 cents.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by pash on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @11:36PM (#6177216)
He meant two kopeks.
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by scotty79 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:58PM (#6175936)
> I've seen some credit card and bank card forms that include language which make the agreement void if its terms are altered in any way.

How's that supposed to work? Bank offers agreement. You offer totally different agreement although superficially similar. It's not altered. It's new. If bank agrees then I don't see how it could get away. After all they are big supporters of the rule that if you signed something you declared that you agree with it and if you actually don't it's your loss.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by belorn on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:53PM (#6175911)
> Technically, the man did nothing wrong. His bank agreed to the altered terms.

I was very surprised that the Russian court system found the contract valid. Surreptitious changing a contract prior to signing can make the contract invalid where I live. It might be a question of ill-intent, and that the court did not find it as such in this case.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by scotty79 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @06:03PM (#6175973)
It works like that. You print an empty contract from internet in two copies. Then you sign both copies, and you send it via mail to the bank. Bank signs both copies as well and sends one back to you. Then it provides the service.

Bank just offers you agreement to sign. Guy just offered the bank different agreement and the bank accepted it by signing.

Probably that's why in my country banks rather sends you already signed two copies of the agreement and you are supposed to sign both of them and send one back.

Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by leephillips on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @05:59PM (#6175940)
But what if you erase the part that makes "the agreement void if its terms are altered in any way"?
Re:Russian Man Changes Small Print in Credit Card Agreement,... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @07:21PM (#6176326)
Document A might have text talking about voiding if you change document A, but that won't do anything to a document B proposing a brand-new contract, not yet signed by the bank.