FYI - Coffee at center camp was canceled as of 2022

Don't get me wrong, but on one side you have the gift culture, and on the other side the exception that one of the only things sold the the community in one of the hottest, most arid deserts in the world is ... ice ...

Got a chuckle out of me there.

There’s no in and out privileges to get ice elsewhere, so the organization coordinates huge ice shipments into the event. All the proceeds from the ice and coffee sales benefit the local schools and students, which is great because that area is doing pretty rough economically

They also sell fuel.

Not to any old so and so, only to mutant vehicle and art camps

I actually got to buy fuel there once. They were absolutely surly about it, too.

Why didn't you plan ahead and bring enough gas??!?

Well what happened was, we stopped at the gas station in Wadsworth where we usually fuel up the RV before heading to the burn. I put the gas nozzle into the RV and flipped the nozzle auto-shut-off thing up while I went inside to buy some last minute stuff. I came out, the auto-shut-off thing had popped and I thought the tank was full. But no, it wasn't. The scene there was a bit chaotic, I was distracted. So we only got about 4 or 5 gallons into the tank, and that's only enough to get the RV about 40 miles, so we roll into BRC with an almost empty tank. I did not notice this until we were actually inside the gate and the fuel tank was really low. Give me a break, I was driving for 14 hours, I just didn't notice the fuel level.

So we had some fuel for the art car, which I was hoarding, but when I heard they were selling gas for the first time ever at BM, I dumped all the art car gas into the RV and then got on the art car and headed over to the gas station with every available gas can we had.

It's mostly yuppie culture as far as I can tell with it's hangerons and other cleanup artists, whatever. There's no such purity, but it's definitely not a flat organization.

As it has become so large, naturally you're going to get the hangerons. You also get all of the people that think it is trendy and go for the likes. All of the rich people that go out with custom RVs and all of that type of experience are just going to exponentially increase the hangerons as they have way more followers that want to follow the trends.

Again though, any time you get such large numbers the "core" group will tend to get dwarfed. That's about time when people start noticing it more and think the hangerons are the event so the original culture is sort of lost to the zeitgeist.

> Those principles tend to attract the kind of people associated with counterculture and anarchists

And Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Elon Musk, Elizabeth Holmes, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Eric Schmidt... you get the idea.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-ceos-founders-attended-...

Either of the mentioned was at one point of their career someone who would have been considered at least belonging to "counterculture".

Unfortunately, money and power corrupts, and lo and behold, one day you wake up to find you have become the very thing you once swore to destroy.

Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals.

All of the people mentioned have been in millionaire to billionaire families since birth, so based on that alone I am not sure I work with the same definition of “counterculture” as you are.

Millionaire is not some ultra privileged status in the United States, an upper middle class family with a paid off house in a somewhat decent area will have a net worth in the neighborhood of 1 million dollars.

Number of millionaires in the US: 23,831,00.

Yet again, different idea of “privilege”, I guess?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...

Not sure how this relates to my comment

Being part of the upper <10% in your own country is “privilege“ for me. Being part of the upper <2% worldwide is “privilege” for me. Not seeing that as “privileged” is a sign of privilege for me. Not understanding what I referred to is privilege for me. And not “counter-culture”.

Maybe wisdom gives another perspective on the ideals we had in our youth?

there's nothing wise about hoarding

Maybe, some of them were poor young iconoclasts some day. That's not when they joined the fashionable trend of Burning Man though. When they joined their trend, they were well into their power (or at least, in the case of somebody like Holmes, pretense of it). Because that's what is fashionable, of course, and they couldn't afford not to be part of "counter-culture" - it's so gauche not to be part of it!

None of those people are your average citizen.

The idea that rich people are all right wing conformist republicans does not survive getting to know a few of them.

They may not be right wing conformist republicans but they are certainly not opposed to any aspect of current power structures in any meaningful way (unless, perhaps, it is restraining them).

Not sure how did you read "right wing conformist republicans" into my comment that had literally nothing about partisan politics.

Are you trying to imply that these people aren’t counterculture? Really difficult for me to name anyone who’s caused more impact / disruption than the list of names here.

These people in fact are some of the principal figures dictating the dominant culture and status quo.

In what way? The dominant culture hates them.

No it doesn't. Fashionable people pretending to be counter-cultural love to talk about hating them, but look how many people are on Facebook, how many are using Amazon, how many are using Google products. Consider that "google" is now a verb and literally everyone knows what it means. The part of dominant culture is to show one's "independence" and "free-mindedness" by saying some words about how all those people are oh so awful - and then go and consume the products they make, exactly in the way the want you to use them, and pay a lot of money for it. That's no more "counter-culture" than a multi-millionaire Hollywood actor dressing in a six-figure dress and showing up at a six-figure-per-ticket gala to protest "the elites" is "counter-culture". It's just the elites' LARPing.

Are you trying to imply that Jeff Bezos and Mark Zukerberg are counterculture in some way? What?

Correct, but I wasn’t trying to imply it, I stated it outright.

So anyone that creates a new business that is successful is inherently counter cultural?

If whole top of Silicon Valley is "counterculture", that word has no meaning.

> Really difficult for me to name anyone who’s caused more impact / disruption than the list of names here.

And from that you make the conclusion they are "counterculture"? I don't think it means what you think it means.

> a group whose values, norms, and behaviors actively oppose and reject those of mainstream society

Basically every name listed meets this definition

"Civic responsibility" is a ballsy claim from a bunch of first worlders exploiting child sweatshop labor, wasting resources on aura farming.

Burning Man is to the stated principles what Kraft singles is to cheese.

Just more empty American platitudes, advertising, marketing; watch! as rich capitalists role play rural community their capitalism tore apart!

The Party in 1984 is not just metaphor for a government but any group that puts its rhetoric before reality. Just some first world LARPers telling a story about themselves while the output is there for all to see.

That's quite the straw man you've constructed, which I suppose is appropriate for a Burning Man thread.

Appeal to authority you don't have to dictate what is and isn't logical fallacy.

Easier to regurgitate some old philosophy you read than think. You look educated in philosophy if not intelligent in logic.

These are informal fallacies, so logic’s not at issue here. Though you whiffed on your accusation.

Whiffed on my accusation according to some random internet posters interpretations.

Oh no. Anyway.

Have you been? Or are you basing this on second-hand information?

Once. Was impressed by the human effort in general, little specifically stood out.

Worked in low voltage wiring through college. Have been a part of groups rallying behind large infrastructure projects; on farms, new office buildings, rapid response to weather related crisis (tornado alley). It's actually a very common human thing.

Been to many an art fair around the world and the minutiae of Burning Man blends right in.

Leave no trace while blowing fossil fuels into the air hauling tons of stuff to the desert. Nice loophole.

A friend introduced my to CouchSurfing in ~2009.

The idea that a stranger would effectively be a free Airbnb host (back when Airbnb actually had hosts) was baffling. Turns out:

1. Travel is expensive in time and money. Hosting someone gives you a travel-adjacent experience without having to leave home.

2. People who are willing to host strangers tend to be cool/open/interesting/friendly people. Opting-in to CouchSurfing is a good filter for someone you might enjoy spending time with.

Burning Man is similar.

One of the mainstays of Burning Man is the Hug Deli. It's like a lemonade stand, but instead of sugary beverages, they serve affection. You can order hugs ranging from warm + fuzzy to long + uncomfortable, each for 2 compliments to your server. Want an extra pep in your step? Add a kiss or a spanking for an additional compliment.

The staff at the Hug Deli are all volunteers. You just roll up, toss on an apron, and start serving. (The guy who started it isn't particularly affectionate. He's a performer from LA who wanted a way to get strangers to try on characters.)

You would never stand in Golden Gate Park offering kisses to anyone who asked. Burning Man is a container that allows experiences like that to flourish, because opting-in to Burning Man is a good filter for the kind of people you might be willing to try stuff with.

One of my sluttier female friends made a habit of seducing her male CouchSurfing hosts.

As she tells it, a lot of people had a great time!

That sounds like illegal prostitution and sexual harassment.

That might be the worst take I've ever read on this website.

It's just free hugs, but more theatrical.

Your post literally suggests that a customer spontaneously should kiss the employee. That kind of behavior is goes far beyond an innocent facade of "free hugs."

Consent is involved, everyone is a volunteer and willing participant. If you don’t want a hug or kiss or whatever you don’t get one. I fail to understand how this makes it anything but “free hugs”

Doesn't the post read that it's the server who would give you the kiss, if you compliment them three times?

Also, volunteer is not the same as employee. Especially important in this context.

I read it as if you pay 2 compliments and then proceed to kiss / spank the employee you would also get a compliment in addition to whatever you ordered. And that compliment would give you an extra pep in your step.

> order hugs ranging from warm + fuzzy to long + uncomfortable, each for 2 compliments to your server

Any one of these is either: 2 compliments from customer. So, it would be assumed that compliments are going from the customer, to the server, for the extras as well. Instead of the whole dynamic switching around halfway through.

> Add a kiss or a spanking for an additional compliment

Customer can add a kiss or spanking to their order, if they give an additional compliment to the server. And the server then decides if they actually want to do it.

Something's either literally stated or suggested. It can't be both, but it can be neither.

...you ask. Just like you would for the spanking.

What is wrong with you. This isn’t a customer/employee thing at all. That’s, like, the entire point of Burning Man.

Feel free to mentally substitute your own words for the titles used of the two people when ordering and delivering services from another.

Are you somehow operating under the impression that volunteers are being held against their will and forced to give and/or receive free kisses to anyone who demands it?

Are you okay?

Would you think it would be okay if someone got raped as long as they weren't being held down against their will? Just because the person doesn't leave, that doesn't mean they consent.

You’ve already managed to completely ignore multiple people who’ve tried their best to clear up your colossal and frankly easily avoidable misunderstanding of this situation. So by all means, don’t let me stop you from crashing out over an entirely imagined series of circumstances.

I think the counter-intuitive examples of people who attend that you and others in the replies are pointing out are a demonstration of how many contradictions exist in these principals.

I am the type of person who thinks many, many things about the way the world currently exists need to change, but I am incredibly skeptical of the purported mission of the Burning Man Project to "extend the culture" of these principles to the wider world.

*people associated with counterculture and anarchists who also have thousands of dollars of discretionary income.

The people who hate Burning Man don't care about paltry things like the principles it's based on, they simply don't like the people that go for completely unrelated reasons.