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Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by efitz on Friday October 03, 2025 @07:35AM (#45461692)
I want to see English become mor fonetik and mor regular.

As I watched my son learn to speak, then later to read and write, I paid attention to his misspellings and they all made perfect sense if you approached the language phonetically.

The first sentence he wrote for me was:

“my daddy and i tocd on d woki toki” (“My Daddy and I talked on the walkie talkie.”)

At first confusing, but it omits all the silent, or effectively silent because native speakers usually omit the sound, or abbreviate it so much that non-native speakers would miss it if they didn’t know it was there. Like “l” in “talked”.

And don’t get me started on irregular conjugations.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by HPsquared on Friday October 03, 2025 @08:02AM (#45461937)
Spelling preserves a lot of meaning and etymology in words. Phonetic spelling would remove some of this richness from the written language. Logographic systems like Chinese take this to the extreme. I think English strikes a nice balance.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by asveikau on Friday October 03, 2025 @10:53AM (#45463677)
Spelling can also bridge the gap between phonetic differences between accents. Many variants of English don't even have the same number of sounds as others, but we all "come together" when we write.

In English, it would frustrate me if every time I read marry it would be spelled the same as merry, because I say those differently, even if most Americans I come in contact with daily do not.

Spanish spelling is much more phonetic than English, but one thing I admire about it is when things are correctly spelled, you can adjust the text for accent based on spelling. The only area I can think of where spelling does not denote contrast in any accent is between b and v. (Edit: and that h is silent.) There are some contrasts that are only kept by a minority of speakers (Ll is merged with Y for most people, but maybe not in Bolivia or parts of Spain; s and z are merged in Latin America), but it's still a meaningful contrast for somebody.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by xanderlewis on Friday October 03, 2025 @07:56AM (#45461891)
The impressive part is that he said '...and I' rather than 'me and...'!
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tim333 on Friday October 03, 2025 @08:43AM (#45462311)
Maybe we could have a separate version that was fonetik and regular and the kids could learn it? They could always use google translate to deal with texts in normal English like I do with most languages.

Edit - I looked up and there is a translation thing online.

"this is text translated to a phonetic version" goes to "ðɪs ɪz tɛkst trænzˈleɪtɪd tuː ə fəʊˈnɛtɪk ˈvɜːʒᵊn" in British pronunciation and "ðɪs ɪz tɛkst trænˈsleɪtɪd tu ə fəˈnɛtɪk ˈvɜrʒən" in American.

Not sure it's going to catch on.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by bradrn on Friday October 03, 2025 @10:03AM (#45463159)
> "this is text translated to a phonetic version" goes to "ðɪs ɪz tɛkst trænzˈleɪtɪd tuː ə fəʊˈnɛtɪk ˈvɜːʒᵊn" in British pronunciation and "ðɪs ɪz tɛkst trænˈsleɪtɪd tu ə fəˈnɛtɪk ˈvɜrʒən" in American.

These samples are using the International Phonetic Alphabet, which isn’t really designed for the purpose of being a practical orthography — it’s used as a language-independent transcription method which can represent any sound. (That’s also why the British and American versions are different: different accents use different sounds, so they’re transcribed differently.) So this isn’t really a ‘phonetic spelling of English’, though it’s easy to see where the confusion comes from.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by madcaptenor on Friday October 03, 2025 @08:46AM (#45462334)
My favorite example of a phonetic misspelling - when my older daughter was learning to write, we were potty-training my younger daughter. The older one made a sign "PODE CHRAN FOR [younger daughter's name]" and taped it to the wall over the potty.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by SketchySeaBeast on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:06AM (#45462546)
What about homophones that are clearly different when written? I suppose that would be balanced out by the heteronyms.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by ericmay on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:15AM (#45462653)
> I want to see English become mor fonetik and mor regular

I don’t. The complexity and history is what makes life fun, and makes English one of the most interesting languages read, written, and spoken today.

Similar to Imperial versus Metric. Yes the metric system is better (aside from temperature ranges - Fahrenheit is superior) but it’s not nearly as fun. Why 12 inches in a foot? Who knows!

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by vinajuliette on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:12PM (#45464568)
Most imperial units are how they are because they can be easily divided into a bunch of different ways - 10 can only be divided by 5 and 2, 12 can be divided by 2, 3, 4, and 6. This is practical when you have a physical amount something you need to deal with, like re-portioning a recipe.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by ericmay on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:50PM (#45465662)
(don't let anyone hear this but I always kind of thought that Imperial was more practical for every day life)
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by efitz on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:42AM (#45462934)
I don’t think it’s etymology and irregularity that make English “fun”; I think that it’s English’s large number of concepts because we freely appropriate words and their ideas from other languages (“schadenfreude”, “Deja vu”, etc), the small alphabet, the lack of diacritics, and the flexibility that has been forced onto it primarily by American speakers abusing grammar- verbification, etc.

I think that simplified English is the most likely candidate for a universal human language. The “Unicode of languages”, if you will.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by cenamus on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:35AM (#45462851)
The writing system has 0 to do with that. More the UK and USA being superpowers for ages.

There is no reason why English would be more interesting to native speakers than German, Spanish, Finnish or Bulgarian to their respective native speakers.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by aintitthetruitt on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:06AM (#45463832)
In college I would go climbing frequently and one of the people I met along the way was a student from Italy that was here for her doctoral. On one trip we were talking about all the things we found beautiful and I made a comment about how much I loved the sound of the romance languages, and how they were so sing-songy to my ear. She then proceeded to talk at length about how she found English so much more interesting because it allowed for expression that just wasn't possible in Italian. Specifically, the nature of English being a pidgin that not only accepts creating new concepts on the fly but almost encourages it means that she can think about things in English that are actually difficult to formulate in her native Italian.

I've since heard interesting comparisons as well from native Mandarin speakers, where there is a certain formulaic piece missing in English that let's them form ideas easier. Interestingly in that case they would describe opposites too where there are certain groupings of ideas that they found easier to form in Mandarin that they had to invent words for in English to get across. But they could do so - invent those words.

I'm a native English speaker and only a third rate French and Spanish speaker, so I have to take this on faith for the most part, but it is interesting to hear that common view across origins.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by 1-more on Monday October 06, 2025 @12:15PM (#45492946)
Jorge Luis Borges would agree with you, as he articulates in this interview with fellow native Spanish speaker William F. Buckley (starts at about 17:15 in case the timestamp disappears)

https://youtu.be/bNxzQSheCkc?si=LK_ZyRpBQjTvx7Av&t=1035

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tim333 on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:08AM (#45463856)
English has more words than those " around 500,000 words, compared to German’s 135,000" due to to it being the result of a merger of various different languages (https://ititranslates.com/which-language-is-richest-in-words...) So there's more stuff if you are into that sort of thing.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tralarpa on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:03PM (#45465110)
Sources generally seen as authoritative (Duden, Wahrig etc.) estimate that the German everyday language has between 250,000 and 500,000 words (depending how you count), without counting technical terms.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by HankStallone on Friday October 03, 2025 @10:02AM (#45463146)
I've always wondered: do speakers of other languages enjoy spelling bees and puzzles based on spelling and wordplay as much as English speakers do? It seems like spelling bees wouldn't be as interesting in a more phonetic language, for instance.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by IAmBroom on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:23AM (#45464016)
They don't exist.

A French kid can reasonably spell words they hear, even if there are a lot of unpronounced or apparently useless letters.

I've heard from a Chinese friend that the same is true for Mandarin. Apparently most written words have a "meaning" component and a "pronunciation" component (excepting the most common words, which are easy to learn by rote).

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tralarpa on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:10PM (#45465185)
French orthography competitions are on a different level. Spelling of difficult words combined with grammar rule exceptions.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by thefringthing on Saturday October 04, 2025 @12:29PM (#45474523)
French spelling is sometimes described as "one-way": it's almost always possible to pronounce a written word correctly, but very difficult to spell a word you've only heard.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by 1-more on Monday October 06, 2025 @12:31PM (#45493126)
Those are "phono-semantic compounds" for anyone looking to do more reading up on them. The example that springs most readily to mind is "嗎" (in Pinyin "mǎ") which is a question particle you put at the end of sentences meaning, roughly, "is it not so?" The left character is "口" meaning "mouth" (in Pinyin "kǒu" but that's neither here nor there) and the right particle is "馬" in Pinyin "mǎ" (and meaning "horse" but that's neither here nor there).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character_classificati...

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by johannes1234321 on Friday October 03, 2025 @10:33AM (#45463488)
In Germany spelling bees don't exist. Took me a while to understand why it is a thing in American culture.

Not that German is "pure" but even with words you don't know you got a fair chance of being right most of the time

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tim333 on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:15AM (#45463920)
I haven't heard of them in England. They probably happen but do seem more of an American thing.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by quickthrowman on Friday October 03, 2025 @05:02PM (#45467732)
English is three languages smashed together with thousand of words borrowed from dozens of other languages (Latin, “Proto-German”, Norman French). There’s no other language that has such a rich vocabulary.

To me, Finnish is the only interesting language in your list, due to not being related to the rest of the Nordic languages or Russian (Finno-Ugric). It’s also purely phonetic, which is nice, but what a shame about all those case endings. I am definitely biased as I learned Finnish as a teenager.

Might as well take this opportunity to plug Bill Bryson’s book The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way, it’s a fun read.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by cenamus on Saturday October 04, 2025 @02:45AM (#45471103)
You mean Old English, proto-germanic was long gone by the time of the norman conquest
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by spookie on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:05PM (#45464491)
How is Farenheit superior? If I may ask.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by pklausler on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:09PM (#45465169)
It's not. I just want "cold, cool, warm, hot" and that maps nicely to 0C, 10C, 20C, 30C very nicely.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by ericmay on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:59PM (#45465801)
Yea but the scales don't match. 0-30 isn't very metric, whereas 0-100 is. If you added Fahrenheit to metric I think you'd be much more consistent.

Of course both scales can go above and below the numbers mentioned above, but if you are going to do things based on units of 10 you might as well be consistent.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by 00N8 on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:10PM (#45465182)
0°F to 100°F spans the full range of temperatures I'd go out in & not consider it "extreme weather", so it's rather intuitive in that you can think of it as "how hot is it on a scale of 0-100". It feels very human centric & convenient for everyday usage IMO.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by saalweachter on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:24PM (#45465346)
Most people who like it like that it puts "human temperatures" on a 0-100 scale, with 0 being "freaking cold" and 100 being "too damn hot".
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by somat on Friday October 03, 2025 @02:09PM (#45465930)
Because it is the human scale for temperature. It turns out to not matter that much. but imagine a cold snowy winter, that's 0 and image a hot summer that's 100.

Really both C and F are silly, the minute temperature was found out to have a zero point, they should have been discarded, and we should have gone full in on Kelvin(or Rankine if that is your jam), or even better a new unit that better integrates 0, a scale from 0 to the boiling point of water? and give water boiling 1000? or would it be better to give water freezing 1000? Triple cells are a common way to calibrate temperature.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by fouronnes3 on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:31AM (#45462807)
> Yes the metric system is better

You're changing the definition of "better" so you can have your cake (admit X is better than Y) and eat it too (prefer Y over X). It's ok to like fun things! It's ok to like Imperial and weird grammar, but then you can't also claim that you agree it's worse.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by ericmay on Friday October 03, 2025 @10:06AM (#45463188)
> but then you can't also claim that you agree it's worse.

Sure I can. Didn't I just do it?

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by bobsmooth on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:45PM (#45465600)
>Why 12 inches in a foot?

Lots of divisible factors.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by ericmay on Friday October 03, 2025 @05:06PM (#45467777)
That's actually a pretty fair point I can't say I recall thinking of before.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by dwayne_dibley on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:48AM (#45462994)
ah, 'newspeak'
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by r_lee on Friday October 03, 2025 @09:52AM (#45463047)
Finnish is basically 100% phonetic. A raw Finnish English sounds pretty funny but it's basically pronouncing every character as it's written
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by efunnekol on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:04AM (#45463801)
With the very wide variety of English accents around the world, you would have a tough time creating phonetic spelling in English that everyone would agree to. My mother (a true Brit) might want 'wahtah' for water, where I think it is perfect as is.

With that said, there are clearly some things that could be changed.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by madcaptenor on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:30AM (#45464119)
As a Philadelphian, that should be "wooder".
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by DamnInteresting on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:40PM (#45464880)
Or perhaps 'Filidelfian.'
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by thebruce87m on Friday October 03, 2025 @04:34PM (#45467486)
> a true Brit

There are a wide variety of accents in Britain alone - ‘wahtah’ isn’t recognisable to me for example. It’s a cliche to say brits don’t pronounce “r”, but all you have to do is watch Harry Potter to see all the different accents that do.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by Dwedit on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:19AM (#45463976)
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by yboris on Friday October 03, 2025 @11:51AM (#45464336)
Plug for the Shavian alphabet - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

"a constructed alphabet conceived as a way to provide simple, phonemic orthography for the English language to replace the inefficiencies and difficulties of conventional spelling"

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by nielsbot on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:35PM (#45464838)
Couldn't you use a subset of IPA for this? (Not a language person, so I don't know)
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by jlos on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:20PM (#45464657)
You want ENGLISH to be more phonetic?

English, a language with over 40 different dialects in its country of origin.

English, the official language of over 60 countries?

English, the bastard child of millenia of Roman, Germanic, and French colonization?

English, a language with documented vowel shift that occured over 200-300 years?

THAT language would be easier if the words were spelled how they were pronounced?

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by makr17 on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:53PM (#45465012)
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

--James D. Nicoll

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by Pet_Ant on Friday October 03, 2025 @12:41PM (#45464892)
I'm reminded of a meme that compared "car keys" with the word "khaki" in a 'Boston'-accent (non-rhotic).

Or the "pin=pen" merger of some accents, or "caught=cot". No one speaks "English", it's an ugly compromise of an army of dialects.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tracker1 on Friday October 03, 2025 @03:10PM (#45466620)
Is there a black purse in here?

Is there a black person here?

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by monknomo on Friday October 03, 2025 @01:23PM (#45465338)
Which accent should the phonetic representation be based on?

Thick lousiana accent? Southeast london accent? Boston southie accent? Mid-atlantic?

No matter what you choose, it won't be phonetic for someone

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tracker1 on Friday October 03, 2025 @03:09PM (#45466602)
The west-coast US/Canadian accent most likely as it's most prominent in popular media, and likely the largest English speaking accent group.

But good luck getting the UK or India to adopt it.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by zarzavat on Friday October 03, 2025 @04:15PM (#45467293)
Yu hav too bee bluddy kidding mee if yu fink aim gonna yuz som yanky spellin skeem.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by tracker1 on Friday October 03, 2025 @04:25PM (#45467398)
Yu du waht yu havf tu du m8.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by dh2022 on Friday October 03, 2025 @05:40PM (#45468120)
All these license plate numbers now finally make sense!!!
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by sorrythanks on Friday October 03, 2025 @02:38PM (#45466243)
type in your own accent, it works when we talk
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by thfuran on Friday October 03, 2025 @03:22PM (#45466748)
It sometimes work when we talk.
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by efitz on Friday October 03, 2025 @04:23PM (#45467369)
I believe that there is a lowest common denominator for accented English, and it sounds like “sung” English - which sounds like non-regional American English if the singer is singing and doesn’t naturally have a very pronounced accent. This is partially due to cultural effects but partially due to the mechanics of speaking with an accent.

By “lowest common denominator“, I mean omitting affectations like non-rotic R (Boston) and dropped g (urban) and exaggerated length of selected vowels (US southeast) and constant syllable length and other kinds of things. There are lots of videos on YouTube about how accents work.

But mainly phonetics is about eliminating silent letters, using the most unambiguous letter when there is a choice (eg K or S instead of C), etc.

Anyway I’m rambling but you probably get my point.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by thefringthing on Saturday October 04, 2025 @12:28PM (#45474514)
Kingsley Read went with something like an artificially rhotic midcentury RP when designing the Shavian alphabet. It works reasonably well for me, a Standard Canadian English speaker, except that distinguishing all the open vowels (father/bought/bot) can be a struggle,
Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by WalterBright on Friday October 03, 2025 @03:29PM (#45466825)
Learning to read phonetically still pays off handsomely, despite the erratic spellings of English.

I sometimes discover that I mispronounce words I know very well. The reason is that I never heard those words used audibly, I only encountered them in books. So I "invented" a phonetic sound to them, and long ago forgot that I did that. Until whammy, I encounter it verbally, decades later.

Re:The strangest letter of the alphabet: The rise and fall o... by taneq on Friday October 03, 2025 @04:33PM (#45467479)
"Ze drem vil finali kum tru."

(What was that essay/joke called again?)