Even though I agree with the premise of the article, as a person with ADHD, doing nothing else while being blocked by someone is very impractical.

Maybe that works in huge companies, but most managers I have worked with are unlikely to agree with zero concurrency in software engineers :)

Also scoring on the ADHD spectrum and having a pure knowledge worker job, I have to say, that knowledge work is actually not reliant on attention at all. One can get productive and not fired in many ways. Working in research is IMHO a nice niche for a neurodiverse community. I would say: a fitting job is all you need.

As a side note: I have actually a lot of attention (so it is not scarce at all) but not always at the thing that just needs to get done atm.

That's also very much task-dependent. When I have a task that I find either intellectually challenging or with a critically important outcome, I am usually hyperfocused, and even pausing for lunch is an annoyance.

With less rewarding tasks, however, I would say attention and discipline are exactly what I wish I had more of. Writing documentation, listening to other people talking in calls, etc.

I saw a nice 4 quadrant chart about this somewhere (but can't find it now).

Basically when a task has JUST the right urgency and/or difficulty level, my ADD superpowers engage and I can Just Do It.

But anything outside of that I just get bored and instead build a tool to filter and enrich RSS feeds, because it tickles my brain the right way.

I can kinda force myself to focus, but not always.

I can totally relate. Even going to the toilet is difficult on hyperfocus. Stupid thing is that to make things 'interesting' for my brain they often have to get overdue, adding unnecessary stress until that point. But it is all about acknowledging that in my case and working with it. I guess other people are a lot further down the spectrum or have jobs where this does not work. But I also know how much this ability actually helped me in the past (and annoyed other people I guess)

Speaking of ADHD, sometimes I wonder whether that might be a false positive self-diagnosis in my case.

About 10 years ago, when I consumed much less media content like Instagram or YouTube, everything was different in that I used to be an avid reader of fiction, which I now can hardly do without losing focus.

It's a threshold thing. The easier you make reading, the more likely yo are to do it.

I've been using e-ink readers for about a decade, starting with the first Kindle (the one with a tiny keyboard) and now a Kobo Libra Colour (because f. the dude who can rent a whole city for his wedding).

I can pick it up, open the cover and it's _exactly_ where I left it the last time.

It weighs exactly the same whether I'm reading a 100 page novella or the latest Brandon Sanderson 1500 page brick. My eyes don't get tired because the display only updates on page change and it can ONLY read books, there's no way for me to get distracted by a notification.

Now I've started to train my brain to pick up my e-reader when I have the urge to start doomscrolling some algorithm shit hole. I've gone through 4 books in the last month already =)

> Speaking of ADHD, sometimes I wonder whether that might be a false positive self-diagnosis in my case. > > About 10 years ago, when I consumed much less media content like Instagram or YouTube, everything was different in that I used to be an avid reader of fiction, which I now can hardly do without losing focus.

I have recently at the age of 45 went through the trouble of getting myself 'diagnosed'. The whole process and theory is IMHO all very hand-wavy. I guess it boils down to the fact, if one's neurotype is incompatible with one's life you can call it illness and you need to give it a name to get treatment/help. In my case I don't want to take drugs, however, I am more self aware, which helps a bit creating less damage to myself and others (hopefully). It helps a bit also giving it a name myself and looking for better tools. While I certainly had trouble in my youth (which mostly my mother covered for me), it wasn't that much of a trouble in between, but as I grow older m ability to compensate by staying up all night to wait for some focus is decreasing. Regarding distractions: for me it is rather HN than YT, because it keeps my brain busy without pushing too much trash and ads into it as a side effect.

I got to work on research in my previous job which was a lot of fun. Ultimately the company pivoted to a direction which was less interesting to me (which I don't blame them for, you need to build something people actually want to buy and the original vision wasn't that), but I hope I can find a research position like that again someday.

That makes sense, because attention is also all I need.

I say the same after pushing ~2000 lines of slop

As a manager, attention in your scarcest resource, and lack of context (strategic &/or operational) is a problem for everyone. The two are connected.

I wonder if attention span can be increased somehow. Also related, I noticed context switching from one deep task to another requires significant energy and time, I also wonder if that can be optimized.

Most effort goes into loading the working memory. The longer the disconnect the more effort reloading takes.

It occurred to me that it would be beneficial to use flashcards to trigger the memory. It sounds unconventional/unorthotodox use of flashcards but why not. Take screenshots of your codebase/functions/commits, capture progress on your workbench, take little notes of your progress/procedures/learnings/recipes and resurface them. I'm sometimes annoyed to rediscover a useful tool I made time ago.

I yet haven't done this systematically, much less using a SRS, but it is sure worth a try. Difficult to predict when this is worth the effort. But it's a good habit to keep "lab notes" anyway.

I found that AI coding allows me to work on more stuff because it's doing its thing faster, but it also greatly diminishes my attention per project, reducing to less optimal solutions.

Nobody is complaining though, stuff gets done.

I'd argue "diminishes attention per project, reducing to less optimal" is a great summary of the attention problem.

Like, you can learn speed reading / scanning and go through all of HN's daily submissions in half an hour (... I do that), but how much do you actually retain? Or you can pick one and go in deep with it. I've seen both on HN, it's fairly easy to pick out those that just read the headline and jumped into the comments (...like me) and those that read and understood the article, did or brought some extra research, and did a thoughtful and well crafted reply.

If only it wasn't the Internet's de facto currency.

The sum of all attention is your life.

So whenever you spend attention you spend life time.

This helps me now and then to put away my phone and just live.

We could say it's all you need...

I don't think Maslow would agree.

I think the parent comment is referring to "Attention is All You Need", famous transformer paper.

And I couldn’t fit any unreasonable effectiveness in my reply, so I had to be contrarian.

Or, you know, the Beatles.

Sounds fun but breaks down on further inspection.

What activities, in your taxonomy, count as "just living"?

Reading a novel? Reading a trashy magazine? Washing dishes? Building a model boat? Conversation? Staring out the window?

You know I can't think of any reason why phone activities aren't also living.

I thought a lot about this. In life, we have things we have to do (work, chores) and thing we like to do (could be anything, also work, why not).

So the problem appears when you start to feel that you spend your life on things you have to do, and you have very little time for things you want to do. This is something everybody experiences at some point.

For me, one of the most happy periods of my life was when I was working 4 days a week, for example. It gave me a lot of space to actually feel I'm living. It also gave me a slightly greater sense of control over my life, and the time to appreciate it. As for the type of activity, it's secondary.

You have to decide for yourself because you're the only one that cares in the end. The main problem is that we're easily getting tricked into spending time on things we don't even particularly enjoy or things we enjoy in the instant but know we will regret later. It doesn't matter if you spend your time saving children from starvation or collecting pokemon cards, as long as on your death bed you're not overcome by "did I just waste my life ?" thoughts.

But that's not new:

> Continue to act thus, my dear Lucilius—set yourself free for your own sake; gather and save your time, which till lately has been forced from you, or filched away, or has merely slipped from your hands. Make yourself believe the truth of my words, that certain moments are torn from us, that some are gently removed, and that others glide beyond our reach. The most disgraceful kind of loss, however, is that due to carelessness. Furthermore, if you will pay close heed to the problem, you will find that the largest portion of our life passes while we are doing ill, a goodly share while we are doing nothing, and the whole while we are doing that which is not to the purpose

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Let...

When you use your phone to surf the Internet you’re often doing it to just fill time, rather than it being an activity you really want to do (like those things you list). You often tend to come out of a long phone reading session feeling a bit hungover and possibly guilty at the time you’ve spent, compared to say building a model boat where you’ll generally feel positive and refreshed afterward. Using your phone is also generally not one activity you’re paying close attention to, you’re hoping from one thing to the next never really getting a sense of flow.

To be clear I’m talking about the mindless scrolling many of us do, if you’re reading a dissertation on battery chemistry or something on your phone I find that’s a different story.

I think it is not really possible to fill all your time with "productive" activities, so to speak. I mean we are on HN, which is in general mostly a fun social network.

It is not a bad thing, just all about balance. If you are focused and consistently dedicate even little time to some activities you can achieve incredible results.

Most of the time you'd be better off sitting in silence for 10 min rather than reading the latest news cycle or doomscrolling on social media.

Sometimes doing nothing is more productive than attempting to fill the gaps with meaningless noise

But doing nothing doesn't fulfill the required function, which is distraction from existential dread.

Watching TV does. People do a lot of that too. Anything to save observing things as they are or reflecting on them.

This comment is so profound. Thanks for sharing this insight

of course you're right, starring at your phone is also "living". it's just not the way I want to spend my attention / my life.

It's not the way we want to have spent our life. For me at least, too often it's the way I want to spend the next minute... and the next... and the next...

(So I don't use actually use my phone, I use a computer. Same effect.)

Good point. That’s how I ended up here again as well.

And than imagine that there are people who spend their attention on work even in the shower.

> This helps me now and then to put away my phone and just

post on HN.

It's OK, we're all mad here.

Pulitzer prize winning author Annie Dillard phrased it even more simply: "How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."

Great article. "To be reliably able to focus on something, you need to be intuitively, emotionally invested in the outcome." This rings 100% true for me. I've succumbed to a sort of fatalism though, where I'm not confident at all I can control what I'm emotionally invested in and that they just arise out of the situations I find myself in along with seemingly random thoughts from the brain.

I've tried becoming a nicer person in order to expand my social circle because apparently that's the foundation of your mental health. The result is that I met lots of people whose presence I simply do not enjoy. The people whose presence I do enjoy have shit to do and I see them once every few months at best. My prospects of meeting a partner are epsilon, which a major source of frustration for me. I've tried having hobbies but everything gets boring after the initial phase of "wow I love doing this new thing". I've tried sticking to things out of pure discipline and I gained skills, but fuck, it's not enjoyable. I'm not invested in my career because getting a significant raise at my company is pretty much impossible, and if I want to switch companies, I'd need to leave local maximum. I don't enjoy spending time with my family because they're not interested in getting to know me, they just want me to perform the theatre of "How's weather? Ah it's a nice day today".

It's not possible for me to be emotionally invested in anything because I'm profoundly disappointed in life. I want a refund.

I'm training to become a voluntary avalanche dog handler. Having a physical dog that I'm responsible for and who needs the training helps a lot. Having something like that in my professional life would have been immensely helpful.

I love how English leaves it ambiguous whether "avalanche" refers to you or the dog. And if it refers to the dog, does "voluntary" refer to it too?

If you want to change your life you'll have to leave your local maxima, I'm afraid. Just imagine 10 years passed and nothing has changed. What was the point in living, just saving for retirement?

Yes. I imagine that in 10 years I'll be very close to retirement. Once I retire I'll just dedicate my life to smoking weed all day every day.

Read once somewhere that both heaven and hell surround us and it's all about what we choose to pay attention to.

When nothing works, go for delusions (only if you're stable enough to not have them break apart the nature of your reality too much).

Also, go travel; be it on the other side of the city in a new coffee shop, in a new town for their town's day or sth, or in a new state/country/continent, travel somehow manages to shuffle the internals in one's brain enough to reboot to a different baseline; good trick for when current internal state is too meah.

Also moving through space was the default mode for our ancestors, so that I think a lot of latent despair arises out of the artificial confinements of our modern age. If you literally move your body while moving you're ready to heal.

Ok, if depressed maybe follow professional advice and all & ignore my blabbering.

Those are some heuristics I'm using for dealing with my own inner despair when it comes and they have only a sparse intersection with proper dealings of depression.

that just sounds like depression with a lot of extra steps.

Volunteering is also nice. People are there because they want to and at the end of the day it gives you a nice feeling of doing something good.

This is good advice, and it's something I also share with high school students who are struggling with relationships, uncertainty, or self-confidence.

For example, we visit our local hospital every weekend to hand out magazines, books, and toys to people whose lives have been affected by an accident or illness. It's rewarding, and the group of volunteers changes each month, so you get to help others and meet new people. Helping others is also a great way to help yourself. Afterwards, we usually spend an hour or two socialising at a bar near the hospital. The doctors know us, and they sometimes join our table.

If that doesn't work either, exercise and therapy have worked for some of my friends. Having a personal trainer two or three times a week is often better than going to the gym on your own, and seeing a life coach or therapist once a week can really help you move forward.

sounds like selffulfilling prophecy

Attention can be trained through Samatha meditation.

US3951134A and they can take away it from you freely and anonymously

That's why i despise advertising and marketing so much.

It forcefully tries to hack you and steal your scarcest resource.

Have to practice attention hygiene. Add blockers, switching to something else if add or woke crap pops up. Annoying audio adds in shops.. I start singing to myself to keep verbal part of the brain busy.

Oh i do.

I saw the title of submission and immediately closed HN to do something better.

(Only re-opened to comment this)

We missed you during those 30 seconds :)

I am bad at directing my attention. But at least my disciplin is equally bad.

> Once I was full-time managing, I had no shiny distractions and was able to spend my showers focusing on how to be a better manager. And once I was 50%+ focused, well, I haven’t become a “superstar 10x manager” yet, but I quickly stopped being 0.1x.

Counterpoint: a manager who is not spending at least some time on programming or in the codebase/PRs is not able to evaluate fully their teams' strengths and weaknesses and collaboration and is less of a 1x manager than a manager who does code/spend time in the codebase(s).

Let me elaborate further.

# Engineering Excellence

It's a part of our job to foster and encourage engineering excellence. A hands-off "I only manage" type of engineering manager can get the following signals for a team member in terms of excellence:

- from other team members (great)

- from Jira/PRs merged output (good-ish)

But is this merged PR the best work that can be done? Is it maybe not shoddily but quickly done, and LGTM-ed by others? Do you get good feedback about that person from other team members because they are great at being friends, or because they are excellent engineers? Is the codebase slowly becoming unmaintainable from the whole team vibe coding? You can't know for sure, cause you didn't check, and if you are "I only manage" type of engineering manager, after some time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if you checked either.

Conclusion: an engineering manager who doesn't frequently check the codebase and or/code themselves can rely on fewer signals to gauge technical ability in their team and is less informed and capable to steer engineering excellence than a hands-on engineering manager.

# Promotion and recognition

It's a part of our job to recognize talent for the work they do and reward them for that. An "I only manage" engineering manager can rely only on two things to find things to reward in a software engineer:

- Other teammates' feedback (okay-ish)

- If that software engineer themselves brought up a significantly difficult achievement and self-advocated for their work (bad, selects for chest thumpers)

An "I only manage" engineering manager not looking at code is blind to the achievements of more shy engineers that don't loudly advertise their work, and can be also blind to a dynamic where teammates don't know what others are doing. On the other hand, a hands-on manager might find achievements that teammates don't, and build a culture of celebrating each others' achievements + actually knowing what the hell others are doing.

Conclusion: "I only manage" engineering manager can be blind to some dysfunction and reward disproportionately people good at selling themselves. A hands-on engineering manager has a better and ampifly teams' recognition of one another and create a culture of shared celebration of achievements.

# Know what people are talking about

If you don't code/solve technical problems and you "only manage", what makes you qualified to hold a discussion, and even worse, judge merit of your team members? Why are we shoving a dynamic where the least qualified judges others and "solves" their problems. Sure, many problems are people problems, like salary, conflict, etc, but these problems are very often related to actual job performance. How can you judge thoroughly if someone is actually doing a good job ("I only manage" uses 80% vibes and 20% second-hand stories) and deserves that salary increase if you haven't seen their code or how they communicate with others in PRs?

I want to stress out that I don't advocate for managers that are the best devs in their team, nor managers who don't care for their teams' wellbeing. I am simply saying that to actually manage well, you gotta be "in the things", know well what your team is doing AND HOW WELL. To judge software engineering capabilities, you yourself need to have sharp software engineering capabilities and getting a taste of the daily work makes you a far better engineering manager than the "I only manage" type of manager.

Men like Steve Jobs were known for their high attention and focus (signal-to-noise ratio)

Focus on your goal + discipline & practice + semen retention = you will be a "übermensch".

You had me until "semen retention", wtf lol

Well, Steve Jobs was into that too (and he's not the only one of that scale who practiced semen retention)

And if you are an athlete of any type of sports, you will learn the hard way how it is important to keep that energy at least several weeks (to several months) before (and during) the competition.

> Well, Steve Jobs was into that too (and he's not the only one of that scale who practiced semen retention)

Better not meet him in the elevator when he was beyond his third day of semen retention. #fired #fired #fired

True. My code has improved significantly since I stopped Youporn! [fellows, that thread is slowly becoming a South Park episode!]

Scientific fact: just like coding, sex happens in your brain.

Message to my [dear] colleagues: Not a reason to code like a dick!

Attention is relative, like if you're in the middle of some code review and your kid calls saying they've got a problem, then you may get distracted - but rightfully so.

Not like this jerk, who's kid had to put time in his calendar for playing chess with him, because he was too interested in his own career https://www.pathtostaff.com/p/work-life-balance-slows-career...

I'm mid-30s, never did anything to accelerate my career, and have already reached a point in my career that I'd be happy at if I stopped climbing here. I also can eat 3 meals per day with my family because I work from home and I have multiple athletic and intellectual pursuits.

Speedrunning a career at the expense of living the rest of your life just seems psychotic to me.

I’m glad I’m not the only one! I decided early on that the balance means more to me than making more money or having the most amazing resume.

As someone who couldn't agree more with this part "Speedrunning a career at the expense of living the rest of your life just seems psychotic to me.", I don't think they see it that way. For a lot of people who work this much, the career is the dominant part of their life by choice. It's not popular to admit that anymore but they don't have a destination, they are doing what they enjoy (working a lot).

Haven't read the link, but I might actually steal this idea.

Not because I don't want to prioritize my kids, I really do and am fortunate enough to be in a position where I'm able to, but I often let them down because I end up getting distracted with work calls and forget commitments I've made to them.

Honestly having a calendar reminder pop up for me that I promised I'd play a game of Pokemon cards with my kid at a certain time let's me make sure that time stays free for them.

do read the link. don't be like that (assuming it is real)

Oh the reason I'm not reading it is because I can already tell from the comments here this is a cautionary tale, so I'm going to take the "hey blocking out time on the calendar keeps kid time protected" idea and assume the rest is "be an ass" and just leave that part.

How Can I Balance Time-Blocking and a New Kid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aucuJr-qC6s (Cal Newport)

I couldn't resist and just spent my limited attention on the article, and you're good. It's just some guy saying: "if you want to get promoted, put in the hours, but it will come at the cost of your kid feeling they need to book a meeting with you to get your attention".

Just spend time with your kids, and block time on the calendar if it helps you do that. Then you kid won't feel the need to do that themselves.

That is an unhinged post/blog/whatever that is. I've never seen such a load of cope for overworking and living for your employer.

I'm loving the idea of calling something a "load of cope," especially these days, haha. Thanks for that!

HN has been cheering for those types of people for as long as I have been here. Musk seldom even sees his 10 kids, except one. Jobs just decided that raising his daughter was not his problem.

Really? We must have been reading two different HNs. I have the impression that posts appreciating work-life balance get more upvotes that the ones trying to sell you "your career is the most important thing you have" narrow outlook.

HN has been very anti-grind, anti-working hard for as long as I’ve been reading it.

jesus, that is great satire!

Really doesn't strike me as satire at all to be honest. Seemed to have been giving it completely straight.

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they dont let u spend so much time in the shower as to have an idea anymore.

Meetings > shower ;)

wtf does that mean?

Meetings is the only official place when good ideas shall happen. [managers organize tons of them for a reason!]

I should give time-boxing a try. My problem with 50+% focus and monotasking is that I tend to ignore everything else as much as possible when spending even 5 mins would take care of a side task. I take "All or nothing" to heart

Time is your scarcest resource

Attention is the scarcest resource for people who have ample other resources.

Spoken like a true middle manager. Attention is not the resource, but the act of spending the actual resource; time.

Time is your most precious resource. Everyone wants more, but there is no way to get more. Nobody knows when their supply will run out. We do not produce it, having been granted a finite amount of it by our existence.

Attention is to time as shopping is to your paycheck.

Spoken like a true <insert derogatory term>.

I disagree. My paycheck stays what it is when I do not go shopping. Time keeps running out regardless of where my attention goes.

To me it seems that attention most certainly is a separate resource.

And more importantly, regardless of what it is, it is more important. Time is meaningless. My attention is not.

I agree and dont understand the OP. I drink coffee out of the fear that I would waste my whole days time. The coffee allows me to spend some hours of focus time on what I want. In line with the blog posts point. This has been a struggle to all my life, its very hard to control my focus, my attention. I've been diagnosed with adhd (for whats that worth) and at some point took medication who's whole purpose was to allow me to control my focus. When I have unbridled focus, I suddenly have access to my brains full capacity. I think my IQ is easily 10 or 30 points higher / lower depending if I have focus or not.

Well... unless you know how to turn your brain completely off while being awake, you're probably always giving your attention to something. Consequently, attention and time both spend at very similar rates.

Interesting to consider here is that we can measure time, but we can't measure attention. How we use attention alters how we experience time. It also alters the quality of what we can get from the time spent.

There are a lot of interdependent dynamics involving the experiences of time, attention, the outcomes of their use, and the resulting qualia between the three.

Shopping and paycheques seem extremely quantitative, but the matter of time and attention is quite qualitative as well. I wouldn't agree that they're the same, either.

One could argue that what you buy has qualitative aspects, but let's say you're just buying commodities to feed yourself or clean your home or what have you. Not choosing between New Balance and Nike and worrying about the corresponding qualitative factors. In this scenario I find the two hard to compare meaningfully. They seem like they're layers of abstraction away from being properly compatible.

I realize this is entirely subjective and these ideas are fairly fungible at a glance. It's just interesting to think about.

I totally agree with you, all I can add to those who don't is that the true universal value of time as the only currency that is valuable is fully understood when you're closer to 40s and definitively there is not enough when you're after your 40s... Younger people think they are immortal and always have time for something... especially to be distracted. Then comes that other discovery.

This makes me terribly sad for the TikTok generation to enter their 40s. I’m in my 30s and don’t use social media, and I’m already saddened by the amount of my life algorithms have wasted

Either that or the next generation will develop multitasking abilities we cannot even comprehend as we become the sour elders.

Kids this days...

And the obligatory https://xkcd.com/1227/

That case is already here.. it's called ADHD that is hardly to be called an unusual state of the mind if 80% people around you start claiming they are neuro-diverse just to avoid a sticker label.

Multitasking well maybe... but at a really strong mental consequence for the surrounding environment that likes to... slow down, actually.

> Then comes that other discovery

A lot of us don't get it until the first big loss.

Time isn’t really a currency though because you have no option not to spend it. I’ve never really understood this analogy.

I agree with you when it comes to life in general. However, I think most people regard time spent working as fixed and already having been spent, and so maximizing the value of your attention is what is important.

I read the article assuming they were talking about work, not life in general.

Time-Giving-Attention is strictly less than Time though, at least as far as an external observer can measure, and is therefore scarcer, and scarcer still if it has additional requirements like Human Brain Is Awake.

Time and attention have the same dimensions and units I think, but they aren't quite the same. A 1:1 ratio would be the upper limit (full attention).

Everyone wanting more time is just them conflating time with attention. It’s possible to waste a lot of time not paying attention to the right things. Attention is the real cash value of time, and it’s on us to wisely apply our attention to what actually matters.

Attention is not the sole use of time. Nothing wrong with taking a morning sitting in a cafe and watching the world go by if you don't have anything urgent needing doing.

Time is the markings on the field. Attention is the whole ball game.

That cafe scenario is still allowing your attention to watch the world. You can also daydream or mind wander and allow your attention to be squandered on not useful, even harmful things, like negative thought cycles.

This is why attention is the cash value, not time, because it’s so easy to misplace our attention and waste it, gaining no value. and yet time is going forward at the same pace, it is not possible for us to “waste” time itself, if it’s always happening no matter our actions.

Attention is what we actually are doing at any moment. Time is taken up by sleeping, being unconscious, and also being attentive while conscious. The amount of attention we can muster in our waking hours, the amount of things we can focus on and get done, that matters more than mere time.

Again it’s like saying all that matters is the amount of miles you hiked, not the beautiful things you saw and the challenges you overcame on the mountain. Miles and time are mere measurements.

And downvotes aren’t used for disagreement on this forum, they’re for low-effort, non-contributing comments.

But time is just an emergent property of quantum consciousness. Plenty more of it will be along in a minute.

>Time is your most precious resource.

This is just false. Time cannot be your most precious resource, because there are many, many ways to push the likelihood of you dying tomorrow, next year, or next decade down considerably from where it is. Exercising, for example, or reaching a healthy weight, or quitting recreational substances like alcohol or opioids. Yet in reality we see a great many people who refuse to do any of these things, and statistically end up with less time because of it. Empirically speaking this is very strong evidence against time's claim to ultimate value.

It's true that there seems to be a maximum amount of time our unaugmented wetware can provide us, but something being finite does not make it the most important thing you have. I have a finite amount of money in my pocket, yet money isn't my terminal goal.

Your argument rests on rational choice theory, which is occasionally, in limited circumstances, a useful analytical framework, but insofar as it can be operationalized into a trstable form is fairly thoroughly falsified.

If people aren't, as we fairly well know they aren't, perfectly rational utility maximizers, than the fact that people do not consistently take an action or set of actions which would be utility optimal if a given proposition were true is not xounterevidence to the proposition.

It rests on much more limited evidence than that. You would realize that immediately if you didn't reflexively cast anything you didn't like hearing into a platonic shadow on the wall so you can sneer at it.

We're not talking Bryan Johnson here. People fail so, so often at taking any of the most absolutely obvious, well known, high ROI things they could do to actually increase the number of seconds they spend breathing that "erm but people aren't perfectly rational" doesn't cut it. By and large, they simply do not care that much.

I'm not arguing that it's logical, but I do think it's natural for humans to want to do the thing that pleases them now even if it costs them some unknown number of years of life in the unforeseeable future.

No, you misunderstand. I'm arguing it is logical for them to do that. You just have to stop looking at them as though they actually hold "maximize number of seconds alive" as their first, second or even third most important thing in life.

I never have ideas in the shower.

My best ideas always come to me when I'm almost asleep and I have no idea why that is, which is really frustrating because I know I'm never going to remember them. Sometimes I'll get up and write it down but the bar's pretty high for that because then I'm awake and I know I'll end up zombie-ing around the house for another 2 hours until I'm tired enough to sleep again.

I realise this is interesting to no-one but me, but it's WEIRD, right!?

Could it be that it's the only truly idle time you get? I find that I get my best ideas on longer solo trips, when I spend a lot of time lingering in cafés and sitting in trains with little to do.

The "hypnagogic state," anecdotally associated with creativity. (https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-do-i-always-...)

No, it's not weird. Ideas come where they come. Wherever you get them, be ready to grab them.

Keith Richards (of The Rolling Stones) kept a tape recorder by his bed, for exactly this reason. One morning he woke up and found that the tape was all the way at the end. He re-wound it and found that he had played a guitar riff and sung the words "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" several times. The rest of the tape was of him snoring.

I like the idea of a 'bullshit timebox' - an hour period of protected time for minor chores & slightly annoying tasks.

I wonder what the best way of arranging it is. I guess you want to schedule them or have set weekly times, otherwise there's a slight overhead of remembering and finding the best time to timebox. Or maybe you use the last timebox to schedule the next one..

I love that you can just write anything online. “Attention is your scarcest resource” doesn’t make any sense at all for anyone on earth in any context but if you just sort of like phrases based on shape or vibe it’s definitely a sentence.

It is like “The Goof Troop Movie Trilogy is finally getting its final installment… hyuck”. Like no it isn’t, that’s not happening, that’s just made up. Those are just words that are fun to read but mean nothing

Then I should get back into meditation. Half of standard Buddhist meditation is exactly that, training concentration (so-called).

Usually in a "pristine" environment. Which an open office is not.

In my dictionary attention is almost a synonym of love

Time is the scarcest resource.

Everything else can be renewed.

Reaching 40+ and having a full set of family, I think there is one more subtle resources that people don’t talk about until it’s too late (for me it’s now) —— not your time, your energy, your attention, but your mental strength to use the above resources.

Right now, I’m not really out of time or energy or attention, but I just don’t feel the interest to pursuit any intellectual hobbies that I used to pursuit. Occasionally I went back to them but quickly dropped after maybe a day. I used to work on hobbies every day, but nowadays? Maybe once per month.

Anyway, my advice is to NOT get a kid or even married if you have some strong intellectual interests. Family and kids are going to replace them as a new life style. It is not a worse one, neither a better one, just a different one. But you might never ever in this life get to drill deep into what you loved because you are going to lose the love — but not entirely, so you still regret.

Terrible advice. Let me guess, you live in a big city, or in an anti-social suburb, or something along the lines.

My family's tight-knit small city is great for raising families and almost everybody has some interesting hobby. Even mothers of toddlers. Sure, they don't have six figure salaries, but their cost of living is low and quality of life is high. YMMV, not all small cities. Also, they are reluctant to let strangers into the fold. You need to earn their respect.

Eh it’s fine to have different ideas.

What city? Looking for a better place to raise my (new) family

I am not American but the pattern is the same according to friends there.

DO NOT GO THERE AS A REMOTE WORKER. They will hate you because those people are destroying small communities by raising rentals and real estate prices, while keeping most of their money invested somewhere else. You have no idea how much they hate those people.

Find a community with similar background to you or your wife. Harsh weather might be a good thing. Go visit and find out how to fit in. By default they don't like people from outside the community. What you think makes you the same as them is likely not what they think (e.g. "hey I'm White and the same brand of protestant as you"). You'd be surprised many of these small towns are more welcoming to rural Catholic Mexicans than "fellow Whites". When SHTF, like a bad storm or a flood, those rural Mexicans will risk their lives helping the community. Most "fellow Whites" visitors will just pick up and leave to the big city.

Now that I think of it, maybe go to a disaster-stricken town and help rebuild. That could be a ticket in.

The age of reading about something you love, and not effectively doing it.

Yeah, kinda painful TBH. I try not to read about them anymore. It's just pointless.

I'm in a similar situation of yours (I don't feel any kind of regret though, I just feel this is a phase and it will pass someday). Anyway, I still read (and indeed not much more than that) a lot about my passions, but taking notes and writing down ideas to maybe try in the uncertain future has helped me to feel engaged with my intellectual pursuits. Stay strong my friend.

Thanks! I'm going to see when this phase passes. Hopefully sooner than later, hah! Good luck to you too!

I think this might just be age. I have kids but I’m in my mid 20s and still feel very intellectually driven.

Yeah could be age but more likely both -- can't imagine such a dramatic change in just 2-3 years.

That’s fair, everything is multifactorial in a complex system!

I'm 37 and still very intellectually driven (no children). I do think in general you're correct, though, because it's harder to find people like this as I age.

32 and no kids. Always wondering if I’m messing my future up but the idea of having kids is not interesting to me.

I'm neutral on them, but I have MS so I think being a mother would be irresponsible given the lack of additional support I would have. I have always been interested in fostering, though, and plan to pursue that in my 40s if I'm legally allowed the financial stability to do so. (Earning enough to buy a home and pay off my loans means losing support for my medical care/expenses).

If you're not interested, don't have them. I had one parent that enjoyed parenting and one that did not, and having a parent that doesn't want or like kids is so obvious to the kid. It definitely causes issues.

I have found that people don't know what to do with people who don't follow 'the life path', whatever path that is. Like here, I'm an oddball for not going all in on my career or caring that much. In general life, being an unmarried woman with no kids in my late 30s means people don't know where to 'put' you. A lot of parents in particular tend to think of childless people as children/adolescents, which is rather annoying.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think it must be particularly difficult as a woman. People just expect you’ll want or have kids. Definitely already observe the being seen as children thing.

I do think it's harder for women, though being gay also makes evaluating that weird in my case. I find I get more static for not having a partner, as even the queer community expects women will make romantic love their life's true purpose even if kids aren't involved.

One reason I don't seriously seek partnership is that I don't want to give up my time for intellectual and creative pursuits. The usual come back is 'if you find the right person...' but I can't move out of my state without losing healthcare and as a homosexual I've got a small dating pool. Partnering would require compromise on this, and I don't want to.

> Definitely already observe the being seen as children thing.

I'm hoping this gets better as I age. I have noticed people in their early to mid 30s, particularly those following 'the' life path, can get on a really high horse. But the longer people live, the more likely something is to happen to prove to them how fickle and random life is. (e.g. a child dying, a divorce, struggling with infertility, cancer, etc.)

Don't want to argue with your choice, just add a data point: My mother was diagnosed with MS when I was a child, and I turned out alright. Though that was in a country with socialized health care.

I feel the same way, but there were definitely a period when my son was younger when the two felt in conflict, and my drive is absolutely different now.

I felt an urgency when I was younger that isn't there any more (while ironically being acutely aware I have less time).

I don't know if that is age, or that I feel more content with family life and so feel less need to chase other things, but it's a distinct difference.

Most of the 40+ intellectually driven people I know have family and kids.

Honestly, having kids seems to focus people and help them drive toward efficiency and priorities.

I think some people just slow down more than others when they age.

Alternatively, their priorities might simply be revealed by their preferences and energy allocation. Like the people who want to be very physically fit, but when it’s time to work out they can’t find the motivation.

Speaking of fitness, 40s is when lifestyle and health choices start to catch up to people. The cumulative impact of diet, sleep, exercise, and choices like alcohol consumption start to appear in the 40s or even 30s. There was a stark split among my friends in the 30s where those of us who stayed fit and had even moderately healthy diet, sleep, and lifestyle diverged from those who ate whatever they wanted, didn’t exercise, or even frequently drank alcohol. Claiming a lack of energy due to age (or blaming family, career, kids, etc) was the first major divergence.

I think this could be a big factor that is behind the whole accomplishments at a young age thing.

Yeah, I think it is a thing. Just a hunch though, but how many great scientists still pump out great results after having kids? They usually marry late in life too.

It's age. I'm alone and I have the same problem.

But how to explain the change just in a few years?

Maybe because aging is non-linear.

Yeah that could be. I need to adjust my mindset around the changes.

Hormones?

Yeah that could be. I think it accelerated in the last 12 months.

Might be worth talking to a counsellor or something, might be depression/boredom/burnout/etc.

Just so that the discussion does not become overly biased in one direction, I'd like to share that I'm over 40 and still feel highly motivated to pursue intellectual interests, and take on hobby projects. The hours I can put in is definitely far less than I could when I was single and young but the motivation is still there and I still manage to complete a few hobby projects (software ones and otherwise) each year.

That's a pretty good thing. I'm glad you can still do it. Nowadays I'm very reluctant to jump into any new hobby that needs thinking and focus (e.g. STEM topics). I know I won't be able to stick to it, so it's better to just drop it instead of trying it out and disappointing myself later. I'm so scared to try out because I really hate failing myself again.

I know it might sound ridiculous but I never succeeded in any hobbies. Family and kid take away time from me so I feel even less likely to be successful in any hobbies. But why do I stick "Hobby" and "Success" together? I think that's because I have never been successful (by my own definition, whatever it is) in real life.

I have had this thought too, but not sure I would phrase it the same way. For context I'm an older father who had kids mid-40's and had a lot of time to try life the other way, and a lot of time to observe friends life paths beforehand.

The reality is that family, and especially kids, are just better and more rewarding than anything else. That's the part I think gets lost in the narrative. Needless to say there have to be exceptions to that, and maybe you or someone reading this is one of them.

But in general, that's the reality. I was kind of surprised by it, even though everyone had told me variations on this story for decades. I think it's a little bit impossible to understand just how wonderful it is to spend time with your own children, and help and watch them grow, until you start doing it.

I always thought I had no interest in kids. Turns out I just don't like other people's kids much. Still don't really, it's not like I'm going to go play with other kids for fun, or be a school teacher or coach or something. But that's not the same thing at all. If you don't have kids the reality is there's nothing in your life you can extrapolate from to actually understand what it feels like.

In addition to that, as you get older you realize that most intellectual interests and passions aren't going to ultimately be meaningful to anyone.

That's fine, it's not what they're for. But every year it gets a little more impossible to delude yourself into thinking that somehow you're going to transcend the relatively mundane reality you're actually in. Your train set, or collectible collection, or whatever it is, isn't going to have enduring value, to anyone. Again, that's fine.

Perspectives change. Sometimes it makes me sad, and I wish I could have the delusions of youth back, and think that I was so close to the big breakthrough where it would all click.

It's natural to miss all that. But being older is pretty great too.

Thanks. I think whether I feel good or bad about the change, I just have to get used to it. I'm definitely getting used to it, like I'm now perfectly fine playing games every day instead of doing anything productive, while scrolling back 5 years this is going to alert me after 2-3 days of gaming.

> In addition to that, as you get older you realize that most intellectual interests and passions aren't going to ultimately be meaningful to anyone.

I agree with this. But I still feel that I have some intellectual pursuits that I'd like to try out (e.g. going back to school and hopefully get a PHD on something I care about) before going into the venue of vanity. I kinda think it's cool to throw out tons of intellectual shit when my kid and friends are around. Like, talking Astronomy for hours during a camping trip, or picking up a rock and talking about the fossil embedded for hours, which is going to be super cool. David Attenborough has always been my role model as a knowledgeable father who can talk shit for hours without stop. I don't really need a PHD for many of these as most is about being knowledgeable, but you get what I'm saying.

> Perspectives change. Sometimes it makes me sad, and I wish I could have the delusions of youth back, and think that I was so close to the big breakthrough where it would all click.

Yeah. I'm in the sad state right now. Hopefully I'm going to get used to it. I actually don't care too much about big breakthrough because I knew from early on I'm not made of it. I'm more into keep exploring the universe by whatever means until I die. I just don't want to settle down. I told my kid, my wife and my friends that the best way to die is to die on something one feels passionate about. That's why family and kid give me more meh than wow. But it is just me, so I totally get why other people don't get it.

> I’m not really out of time or energy or attention

Similar…

I think it is because you intuitively learn that you need to have some buffer of energy for crises.

I get that some families are lucky but these are the ages that health problems and losses starts to show up. Even more for your parents. Every year it is something…

> Anyway, my advice is to NOT get a kid or even married if you have some strong intellectual interests

I wholly disagree. All but a small number of the happy, successful people I know in highly challenging or intellectual positions have families and children in later life.

I do know several people who avoided dating altogether in pursuit of some other goal and, honestly, it hasn’t turned out the way any of them expected. One had a small startup exit but is now trying to play catchup on life with a lot of regrets, basically.

I think this advice is similar to the advice to young people to drop out of college so they can start companies or follow some passion: You don’t hear about the vast majority of students who drop out and regret it, you only imagine the Bill Gates of the world who drop out and achieve their dreams. For most people, the advice doesn’t get them closer to success or happiness like they imagine.

I’d like to reiterate this one. Also, having a kid will reduce your “free” time; however, it will also force you to work more focussed.

Important to note he didn't mention success once despite you doing so twice. Rather he said children are a detriment if you have "strong intellectual interests". He also didn't make a value statement of being happiness/unhappiness or talk about "pursuing some larger goal". He said it's a different - not worse -lifestyle that isn't the most conducive to said hobbies/interests. Which anyone with a child would immediately resonate and agree with.

Are these people you know rich and able to use money to deal with the hard problems of raising children?

If I had money for cleaning services, landscaping, laundry, day car, large suv etc it would be easier

This entirely depends on how present you want to be in your kids lives, especially early lives. If you want to be there frequently you need to get the time from some where.

If you're fine with them going off to daycare or having your partner raise them solo, then you don't need to sacrifice any of your time really.

Also wholly disagree. I don't have a kid, but I am married, and nothing has helped me more. Best thing that ever happened to me.

Getting a partner and splitting many responsibilities with them at the "cost" of spending time with them is probably a net gain of free time. Kids are nothing like that.

At least, if you want to be present in your kids lives. If you want to have kids and just see them develop around you and attend a soccer game or recital every now and then, kids aren't a big time sink either.

Being in highly challenging intellectual positions is not the same as actually producing highly valuable output. Are they effective in their positions after having kids? Do they have stay-at-home partners?

Just another data point — anecdata, n=1.

I'm an academic in the humanities with kids, currently in my late 30s. While having children certainly reduces the time and mental bandwidth available for purely intellectual pursuits, I’ve found it forces me to focus more sharply on what truly matters—both in life and in research.

Paradoxically, I feel more intellectually alive now than before. The recent advances in AI are transformative, and they’ve opened up unprecedented possibilities even for resource-constrained researchers like myself. This moment in time feels uniquely energizing and urgent, especially for the humanities.

Of course, having kids is a major responsibility, and in academia—where short-term contracts and financial insecurity are common—it can be daunting. I feel incredibly privileged to be able to do both: raise a family and engage deeply with my field. But this is very personal terrain, and there’s no one-size-fits-all answer.

I found just the opposite.

Single life consumes an enormous energy. Home life with toddlers feels so much more focused, calm, and amenable to deep work

> but I just don’t feel the interest to pursuit any intellectual hobbies that I used to pursuit

> Interest

maybe you outgrew them. maybe don't try to pursue something you're not Interested in. let interest be the north star that guides your attention.

that "conflict" you feel between what you Are interested in, and what you Think you should be interested in, is not healthy.

It could be the case. Thanks for the kind words! I found it difficult to tell what I really want.

you're welcome!

>I found it difficult to tell what I really want.

i assume it's almost universally true.

it might be the case that you're already doing what you really want.

and what you think you should do, those thoughts that create the conflict, are most of the time internalized expectations.

only recently i realized that all my adult life i've done pretty much only what was good for me. avoided some major traps of conformity. but constantly felt that anxious pressure from internalized expectations.

now i'm learning to trust my Self - that preconscious source of "wisdom" that i was previously not even aware of.

I get that Kevin Smith's films are for a very specific audience that's now in their 40's, but this scene from the Jay and Silent Bob reboot really hammers your point home hard for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytiZ7zw5vqQ

My takeaway is a little different. I'd still love to have the opportunity to pursue those things, but there's not a chance I'd ever trade what I have for that (I realise you weren't suggesting you would). tldr; I feel at peace with the road not travelled.

Thanks, it's a good clip and TBH I completely agree with what he says. It is just that the complete agree does not turn into complete change of my mindset. I guess it's because being the stage is less fun than I thought. My mindset is -- OK I'm going to be the stage, so I'm going to learn a lot of stuffs that I wanted to learn, so then teach them to my son. But apparently 5-year old boy has little in common with a 40+ years old grown up, regarding hobbies and interests, so the mindset doesn't actually work.

I definitely don't want to ever trade my kid away, but sometimes I just wonder the what-ifs.

I can relate but I feel it’s actually a deficit of energy. Parenting has consumed my energy. It’s not entirely physical or mental draining but just enough constant pressure that it leaves little overhead to really dive deep into a hobby. Both my bandwidth for learning and doing has been depleted. I might have a surge of energy for a couple days but it’s hard to sustain when the choice of pushing forward means stealing from my energy that I could reserve for my family, the family always wins.

I am still interested in a lot of things and try to casually read about them or watch YouTube videos on the topic. But I don’t get hands on as much as I used too. I have the time but I’ll be less present and focused with my kids tomorrow is what I’ve learned. If I dive into something today, I’ll be extra introverted tomorrow as my brain is still spinning on it tomorrow. Yes, I have trouble context switching sometimes. My energy tomorrow will be less if I spend my time today creating versus if I am consuming which tends to be passive even if I am learning and feel like I’m being productive (I’m really not ).

I do think it will return. I’m trying to be present in my kids life at the age they want me present. Before long, they’ll have their own life and hobbies and then they’ll be out of my house. I think each of those will mark steps in my return to my former self. I was selfish with my time before because it didn’t really effect anyone, being selfish with my time now would cause me a great deal of regret and at the end of the day I value family well beyond my own interests and hobbies.

> I might have a surge of energy for a couple days but it’s hard to sustain when the choice of pushing forward means stealing from my energy that I could reserve for my family

This is exactly what I'm feeling. Occasionally I got motivated and wrote some code for my side projects, but my heart would be gone for the next X weeks/months. I don't know why I need so much time to recharge, but that's it.

> I do think it will return. I’m trying to be present in my kids life at the age they want me present. Before long, they’ll have their own life and hobbies and then they’ll be out of my house. I think each of those will mark steps in my return to my former self. I was selfish with my time before because it didn’t really effect anyone, being selfish with my time now would cause me a great deal of regret and at the end of the day I value family well beyond my own interests and hobbies.

I agree with you. I definitely don't want to regret about not being present, thus the struggle. But as you and others said, hopefully this is going to change. Good luck!

> Anyway, my advice is to NOT get a kid or even married if you have some strong intellectual interests. Family and kids are going to replace them as a new life style.

I'm single and without kids, but I still have to say... although I appreciate your honest thoughts, I think the quoted bit is an unfortunate message to be in the top-voted comment on HN, because of how it will be tallied by impressionable young minds.

As we all know, tech industry has a huge problem with ageism and other hiring discrimination that's outright illegal in the US, but pretty openly practiced and promoted.

If you were a founder who thus far had little life experience beyond college, and you were deciding who to hire, some of what you'd read on HN would have you assuming you needed to hire only other people recently out of college, and without family.

Which would probably be a mistake, but HN will only tell you about the few times that randomly worked out, rather than all the times it was an avoidable disaster.

Level up and hire help. You can do it I believe in you!!!

Thanks! The more I think about it, the more I feel it's my own issue and family simply makes me more vulnerable.

"Never felt being successful in life" -> "Want to achieve something" -> "Naturally turns to hobbies" -> "Family and kid takes focus and time away" -> "Get frustrated"

I think that's the loop I'm in.

This is precisely why we (two longtime Vipassana meditators) built Aloe. Attention is the precursor to agency. It’s all we’ve got. In today’s over-saturated information environment we need superhuman attention if we’re going to have any agency left.

I couldn’t find it (or I found too many results actually). Do you have a link?

Reading this article i followed a link which i find, at least, as good as that one.

https://paulgraham.com/vb.html

It's so true it hurts me!

Disagree: it's time.

Inattention is abundant.

Your scarcest resource is time, and you don't know how much you have to spend. And burnout is real - before you advocate having no diversions in life, imagine what happens when it occurs.

This connects to a broader truth about knowledge work: we often treat focus as a personal failing when it's really a design problem.

Most people try to fix their focus through better time management or productivity systems, but the real solution is usually structural - changing what you're responsible for, not how you manage those responsibilities.

Hear me out: it's your scarcest resources and also a certain amount of waste is not just expected but necessary. This article starts with the phrase "Like many people, I have most of my best ideas in the shower." What's happening when you have shower ideas is something called the default mode network (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network) is activated. It's basically "What you're thinking about when you're not thinking about anything" and it's how your brain builds relationships between facts. It's usually where you do your thinking about yourself, about other people and the past and future, as opposed to what is called the task-positive network which is when your thinking is focused on concrete things in the here and now. What's interesting about the default mode network is that it's the source of those "a-ha!" moments because, unconsciously, its actually been analyzing the problem, building potentially insightful connections between ideas and integrating those ideas into what you already know.

> Hear me out: it's your scarcest resources and also a certain amount of waste is not just expected but necessary.

Where's the waste in what you're describing?

If all this stuff is going on then it doesn't sound wasteful at all to me.

Fair, but when I say "waste" I mean more "cannot and should not be consciously marshalled toward a specific effort"

Also sometimes this same network that creates insights creates things like when I couldn't remember the lyrics to Mingulay Boat Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29l90zcoTBo) so I bopped around the house for a week singing "Heel ya ho boys/Let her go boys/She's a vampire/Set her on fire" so it's not all diamonds in the mine

Reading a book about this by Chris Hayes called Siren's Call.

Attention and Information are at odds with each other.