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Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by sureIy on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:05PM (#43283159)
That reminds me of my short time with ISDN and the amazing availability to receive calls on the second line without forcing me offline.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by xnx on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:23PM (#43283353)
I'm still mad that they high-quality voice audio possible through ISDN didn't become ubiquitous. It's ridiculous to hear the clipped frequency range of a plain old telephone line during radio interviews in 2025.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by OhMeadhbh on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:26PM (#43284162)
I think it was ubiquitous. NPR in the 90s and 2000s used ISDN to allow many of their commentators to work from home. I think where you hear those crazy 8KHz clipped calls is where it's not an option. Mostly these days remote radio and podcast interviews I hear remote participants sound more like they're on mobile phones: variable voice quality with an almost unbearable latency.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by xnx on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:51PM (#43284417)
Every once in awhile the stars align and I randomly get an "HD" voice call. It's disorienting to both me and the other party how good the quality is.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by DecentShoes on Friday March 07, 2025 @03:39AM (#43288345)
HD Voice is genuinely what it's called:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/business-insig...

They really do sound alot better. It always reminds me of the first time I ever made a FaceTime call, in 2010, and the high quality audio was just as interesting as the video.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by spockz on Friday March 07, 2025 @12:31PM (#43292144)
It is the reason why we switched to using FaceTime audio. The sound quality is so much better than over the normal voice line. I don’t know how to reliably get HD Voice.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by xnx on Friday March 07, 2025 @12:40PM (#43292216)
Another thing ruined by the cell companies. They should be dumb pipes that don't even know what they're carrying.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by madwolf on Friday March 07, 2025 @04:59AM (#43288825)
Probably depends on the radio station and area but I work in one and we're actually using something much higher quality for remote radio, for example: https://www.prodys.net/portable-codecs-audio/quantum-lite-2/

If course it has to be pre-planned, someone needs to have the hardware with them. So sometimes there's a spontaneous connection over normal mobile phone. That's something that everyone has with them at all times.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by cjrp on Friday March 07, 2025 @06:38AM (#43289357)
Apparently it was still used for commentators at the BBC until 2023 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ode-isdn-paul-furley/
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by genewitch on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:10AM (#43299972)
ISDN was just completely phased out a year or two ago in the US, too.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by numpad0 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:13PM (#43284015)
24 [bit] * 192 [kHz] = 4.608 [Mbps]. Maybe not sensible to do so, but many people could have Discord calls in uncompressed "high-res" WAV. It's crazy that there aren't even 16bit/44.1k modes in most voice call apps.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Synaesthesia on Thursday March 06, 2025 @04:12PM (#43285126)
Speech compresses really well, with modern techniques you can get it down a lot.

The big issue with analogue landline phone calls is the audio bandwidth is so limited. It's not the full frequency spectrum, most of it it cut off.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by cosmotic on Thursday March 06, 2025 @07:05PM (#43286312)
For some context, wikipedia has a good table and diagram of codecs that do well at low bitrates, many of which are very old (G.722 from the late 1988, Speex from 2003, Opus from 2012 for a few examples)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_coding_for...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_(audio_format)#Quality_co...

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by numpad0 on Friday March 07, 2025 @01:03AM (#43287679)
I have no problems with Opus or mp3 at low bitrate, in the same way I have no problems with microwaved food. I just think it's crazy that no one is doing 4Mbps audio while we're routinely streaming 20Mbps video as cheap distractions.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by piperswe on Friday March 07, 2025 @11:03AM (#43291259)
4Mbps audio doesn't really make sense when you can just about perfectly replicate any human-audible sound in ~1.4Mbps

EDIT: I do agree that lossless (or at least high bitrate modern lossy, like 256k Opus which is basically transparent) should be available in many more situations though.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by OhMeadhbh on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:29PM (#43284197)
The economics probably aren't that great to send uncompressed voice into the data center. If you have a business that gets charged XX cents (or more likely .00XX cents) per GB of traffic and you can cut that in half by using compression... I think people will opt to use compression.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by smittywerben on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:37PM (#43284275)
You have an eye for quality. They should make an Apple voice dongle for that. Inside joke. Signing off.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sesse__ on Friday March 07, 2025 @03:38AM (#43288334)
192 kHz? That makes no sense, unless you want to have a telephone conversation between bats.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by paulmac_ie on Friday March 07, 2025 @04:50AM (#43288743)
192 kHz is the sampling rate, not the sound frequency.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by fhars on Friday March 07, 2025 @06:30AM (#43289323)
That still makes no sense, unless you want to have phone calls between bats.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by hypercube33 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:48AM (#43301082)
I just want smooth 90s jazz hold music to sound ok.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by sneak on Friday March 07, 2025 @08:49AM (#43290117)
nyquist-shannon means that you only need to sample at 192khz if you need to encode signals up to 96khz.

humans can’t hear above 20khz. adult humans can’t hear above 16khz or so, we lose the top end before age 20. this means that the standard 48khz sampling rate covers the entire human hearing range and then some (0-24khz). any sampling rate over 48khz for sound intended for human hearing is a total waste.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by IncreasePosts on Friday March 07, 2025 @01:59PM (#43293086)
Why do 96 or 128khz sampled audio files sound better than 48khz ones? I blind tested and could always tell the difference between them, but not between 128 and 192
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by toast0 on Friday March 07, 2025 @03:00PM (#43293862)
Typically, high sampling rate files are part of a different mastering process than what is published as a 44.1kHz cd audio or 48kHz dvd audio.

Also, you might possibly be sensitive to resampling artifacts if your output device runs at 44.1kHz and your file is 48kHz or vice versa.

Audio testing is hard, and testing on yourself is tricky... But if you have a sample that you're convinced sounds better at high rates than lower rates, I would urge you to put it through a tool to resample it down to lower rates and see if/when you can tell the difference. If the rate isn't an even multiple, it's worth using a tool that can dither; dithered resampling artifacts are less abrasive than undithered... I had some voice recordings to play over the phone, and everything needed to be 8kHz u-law; the 48kHz original recordings sounded better than 44.1kHz original recordings because one is even multiple and the other isn't, but either way, the waveforms looked worse than it sounded.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by genewitch on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:17AM (#43300005)
Oh come on. I have handheld recorders that do 192khz.

"Headroom"

And the idea that humans can't hear over 20khz is like "humans taste 'sweet' on the tip of the tongue, and 'bitter' on the sides"

As we get older the hairs in out ears break or whatever and our perception decreases, but I could hear the fly backs in my old monitors, I used to be able to see the flicker in 3khz pwm LEDs, and my induction hob drives my kids crazy but it's merely midly annoying to me.

Get a real soundcard and some young people and play square(pwm) and sine tones starting at 16khz and find out where they can't hear it anymore. I find studio monitors with tweeters that are not paper are the best.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sesse__ on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:05AM (#43301209)
If you think you can hear ultrasound, it's nearly always due to nonlinearities in your system producing non-ultrasound when you try to play it. Seriously. (You can sometimes hear above-20 if it's very loud and/or you are pressing the source against your skull. Above-40 would be completely insane.)

The extra headroom can indeed be useful for some kinds of processing, but you can safely discard it for actual listening.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sesse__ on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:05AM (#43307742)
> If the rate isn't an even multiple, it's worth using a tool that can dither; dithered resampling artifacts are less abrasive than undithered...

This seems to be mixing up two things; proper interpolation and dithering.

If you have limited bit depth (in practice, 16 bits or worse), you should pretty much always dither, ideally also noise shape. This is independent of the interpolation you're using; having a rational relationship between the original and downsampled signal makes some of the implementation a bit easier, but even for something like 48000 -> 24000, you'll end up with effectively a float signal that you need to convert to your chosen bit depth somehow, and that should be done better than just truncating/rounding.

And even for interpolating between two prime rates, or even variable-rate interpolation, you can and should get great interpolation (typically by picking out polyphase filtering coefficients from a windowed sinc of some sort).

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by numpad0 on Friday March 07, 2025 @03:39PM (#43294334)
sampling theorem only applies to sine waves. the rate is bit like the order of (fourier)series expansion and so approximations deviate as rate reduces. how many orders is enough depends and is situational
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sesse__ on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:06AM (#43301214)
No, it does not.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by sneak on Friday March 07, 2025 @08:41PM (#43296735)
Did you generate the 48khz ones from the 96/128khz ones via downsampling or are they different recordings?

Are they the exact same volume? We perceive things slightly louder as higher quality.

Is it a double blind test, ie an ABX test?

Are the bit depths the same? Many 96khz sampled files use 24 bits per sample, whereas 48khz usually uses 16 bits per sample.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by numpad0 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @03:14AM (#43298503)
ime 48/96/128kHz 16/24bit through a modern DAC and well warmed Class AB amp and barely more than okay headphones can be told apart in a double blind test

but you do need phile-enough gears(minus the gilded pebbles hot glued onto circuit breakers)

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by genewitch on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:18AM (#43300019)
You only need low THD and accurate clocks.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by danbee on Friday March 07, 2025 @08:28AM (#43289972)
There is zero point in sampling higher than 48khz. That captures all frequencies up to 20khz or so. 192khz is just a waste of bandwidth for no actual gain.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by giantrobot on Friday March 07, 2025 @10:21AM (#43290860)
That's an absurd bit rate for humans, especially talking about voice.

24-bit samples is ridiculous overkill. That's a huge dynamic range that's completely unnecessary.

At 192KHz you'd be able to capture 96KHz signals, far, FAR outside the range of human hearing. Human hearing peaks at 22KHz so you only need a sample rate of 44KHz to capture the total range of human hearing.

For human voice you don't really need better than 16-bit samples at 12KHz or so. That's for great quality voice.

The only reason audio mastering is done at huge sample sizes and sampling frequencies is to prevent aliasing during mixing and to preserve higher frequency harmonics. There's absolutely no need for such rates delivering to human beings.

Also higher fidelity audio sampling is available for phone calls. The issue is more political than technical. Cellular carriers don't like to negotiate higher quality calls between one another so inter-carrier calls tend to fall back on the lowest common denominator AMR-NB codec. Intra-carrier calls don't even reliably pick AMR-WB let alone EVS available with VoLTE.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by ocal5 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:29PM (#43284200)
Also, you may never beat it’s low latency / jitter anymore.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sesse__ on Friday March 07, 2025 @03:37AM (#43288327)
Modern cellphone networks support wideband codecs, e.g. AMR-WB.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by ale42 on Friday March 07, 2025 @07:50AM (#43289752)
Is that working across networks, though?
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by acuozzo on Friday March 07, 2025 @11:53AM (#43291776)
I think it requires SDP negotiation between your UE, your EPC, their EPC, and their UE. Assuming all parties agree on the use of AMR-WB, then you're good-to-go.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by ale42 on Friday March 07, 2025 @07:52AM (#43289762)
I'm even more mad that sound quality in radio interviews actually decreased. People used to use landlines for calling, given that very recognizable sound "quality" (which is of course nowhere close to what ISDN could do). Now as (almost) everybody uses cell phones, quality is sometimes good, sometimes very poor depending on network conditions. It's not rare to hear the consequences of dropped packets. Sometimes it also sounds bad with apparently no drops, not sure why: maybe are people using the phone in "hands-free" mode so they don't need to keep it in their hands?
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by linsomniac on Friday March 07, 2025 @08:45AM (#43290086)
I had ISDN for around $75/mo in '94 or '95, flat rate for "local" calls. It was fantastic! But then the phone company switched it to a metered service (in Omaha Nebraska, USA) and the price would have been over $300/mo after that change. I was grandfathered in, as long as I didn't move.

I was talking to a sales rep, at the time I worked for USWest or QWest, whatever they were called at that time, which may have helped, and the sales rep told me "we are being told to actively discourage people from buying ISDN".

I get the impression that the phone company hated consumer modem use of any kind, because it tied up CO equipment 24x7, and they liked the returns on investment they got with people paying $25/mo for resources that were used an hour or less a day, sometimes with extra revenue from long distance calling. And ISDN was just another representation of that.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by badc0ffee on Friday March 07, 2025 @04:03PM (#43294632)
I thought VoLTE was supposed to fix that, at least for mobile phones.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by stuff4ben on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:17PM (#43283276)
That 128Kbps on ISDN was the like the gold standard back then! I knew some sysadmins who had that installed to their homes so they could be available at any time. All paid for by the company they worked for.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by phil21 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @03:07PM (#43284576)
The most bang for buck "employee benefit" I ever offered to my guys back in the earl 00's was a T1 line to their home for free.

We could do this since local loops to most folks were about $150-200/mo, and we already had a channelized DS3 terminated at our rack at a local datacenter for our phone banks. If you bought your own DS1 retail you'd be paying upwards of $1k/mo back then to a provider.

It was by far the best "stickiness for dollar" investment into employee benefits I've ever found back then or since.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by icedchai on Thursday March 06, 2025 @06:16PM (#43286009)
I worked at an ISP that gave dedicated ISDN and 56k frame relay lines as a benefit in the late 90's. T1 would've been amazing!
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by linsomniac on Friday March 07, 2025 @08:37AM (#43290033)
I worked for an ISP back in around '98, and they offered to let me terminate a T1 there if I covered the line. I got a contract from the phone company for $205/mo for the T1 and got it all set up, but they were billing me $250/mo for the line. A couple months in DSL dropped, and I got out of the T1 contract because they said they couldn't honor the contract they wrote because $250/mo was the regulated minimum price, and I got 768K DSL for $70/mo. At the time everyone was speculating that DSL wouldn't work (crosstalk across pairs as multiple people in a bundle use DSL will cause it to fail), but they were quickly proven wrong.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by wil421 on Friday March 07, 2025 @12:03PM (#43291880)
Back in the day people on forums would list T1 line in their signature. My ISDN line was not worthy!
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by badc0ffee on Friday March 07, 2025 @04:07PM (#43294671)
I had 1.5 Mbps DSL in 1999, and I think nearly all of my co-workers either had that or a cable modem with similar speed. I think T1s were like 5x the price for the same download speed.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by genewitch on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:52AM (#43300245)
What market did you have 1.5mbit dsl in, in 1999? GTE in LA county offered 768k/768k symmetric. In 1999. I can't remember when that was increased, but it was after GTE got bought out.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by badc0ffee on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:18PM (#43304508)
Calgary. I remember it being asymmetric, probably 256 or 512 up.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by gnabgib on Saturday March 08, 2025 @09:55PM (#43305744)
Cadvision? 3mbps cable (sadly Rogers) wasn't impossible at the time.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by badc0ffee on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:36PM (#43305949)
Nucleus!
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by gnabgib on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:51PM (#43306025)
You know they're still around... somehow? :| The website makes their age clear: https://www.mynucleus.ca/
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by shagie on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:55PM (#43284448)
There was also that period of time when Ricochet was available in some places.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_(Internet_service)

Wireless 56k baud. So you could take your luggable laptop circa 1994 with you and dial in to work... given you lived in SF.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by royskee on Thursday March 06, 2025 @03:27PM (#43284767)
Oh man I forgot about Ricochet. I remember they had service in NYC too, and it turns out also in a few other big markets. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/16/technology/ricochet-netwo...
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by js2 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:47PM (#43283689)
I was one of those SAs, circa 1998-2000. We also had an on-call kit with a Nokia Communicator so we weren't completely stuck at home while on-call.

Fast-forward to 2025, and I now have dual 1Gbps symmetric fiber connections (AT&T, GFiber) into my home from opposite sides of the house. (It's totally gratuitous and I'll probably cancel GFiber in a few months, but I wanted to have it wired up so I could more quickly start service in the future.)

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by hylaride on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:30PM (#43284205)
Ha! My mom worked as a build engineer at BNR (later Nortel) in the 1990s and we got a free 2nd phone line for her to dial into work (99% used by me and my brother for internet). She could have gotten ISDN had it been available in our small town, but alas...
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by fatnoah on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:11PM (#43283991)
> All paid for by the company they worked for.

One of my internships in college was at Sun Microsystems in the org that provided this connectivity to employees. My job was to automate pushing updates to connection software and modem firmware down to clients, but I ended up doing a lot of technical support as well.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by wkat4242 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:47PM (#43283688)
Yes but with channel bundling you also had to pay twice. One channel was only 64k.
Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by calamity_elf on Friday March 07, 2025 @05:40AM (#43289061)
I used to use 128Kbps bonded ISDN at home through BT Home Highway and an ISP called Red Hot Ant who had fixed price unmetered internet access.

And I accessed the heck out of that connection (until the ISP went bust, wonder why?), and was very much a Q3A LPB during that time.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by joquarky on Friday March 07, 2025 @05:12PM (#43295352)
I had one for work as well in the late 90s.

The other (often overlooked) benefit that ISDN provided was 24/7 connectivity in an age of dialup.

Oh and you could spoof your outgoing phone number for caller ID ]:D

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @02:42PM (#43284329)
As a kid, we didn't have ISDN, but we did have a second phone line dedicated to the modem.

My dad ran a BBS from like 1992 to 1995, which started falling out of favor, especially as the users were getting more busy signals because the modem phone line was tied up with the internet connection.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by xenadu02 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:34PM (#43283496)
Indeed ISDN was amazing for its time but Ma Bell and her successor ILECs were way too proud of it so in the end it went nowhere and never made them all that much money.

If they had gotten out of their own way when the internet came around they could have charged a small monthly fee to upgrade to a "digital phone line". Lots of people would have switched.

Re:Why 56k Modems Relied on Digital Phone Lines You Didn't K... by cantrecallmypwd on Friday March 07, 2025 @05:17AM (#43288921)
Both our ISP and the phone company charged for every BRI data "call" placed and for minutes connected rather than a flat rate on a business-class ISDN line. I discovered IBM AIX's web browser package contained a telemetry background process that dialed home to Big Blue every 2 hours, causing our Cisco 1604 router to dial-on-demand even when no one was in the office. A simple deny IP ACL fixed that problem. There was no opt-out and no mention of it, and it never became a story that it should've been.