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Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:44AM (#43253778)
Isn't the price of a KW of solar panels similar to the price of a KW of nuclear power these days?

I wonder what hinders us to replace the roofs of all houses with solar panels and put batteries in all cellars?

It might still be useful to build out nuclear power plants. But the solar+battery approach seems like an easier first step to increase the available power, doesn't it?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:08AM (#43254033)
> Isn't the price of a KW of solar panels similar to the price of a KW of nuclear power these days?

Solar with battery backup is about that, globally, on average.

But: the averages have sufficiently broad variance that there's places where one wins, and places where the other wins.

PV+battery is between 75-140 USD/MWh; whereas new nuclear is, depending on who I ask, any of 81-82, 65, or 141–221 USD/MWh.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by throwaway48476 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:15AM (#43254856)
There's no reason to believe nuear couldn't benefit from economies of scale.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:21AM (#43254939)
Everything seen so far does not suggest it will improve.

SMRs might, possibly, change that — we shall have to see. I have nothing against SMRs, but they're novel, and I've seen a lot of novel ideas that seem interesting, go nowhere.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by throwaway48476 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:28AM (#43255060)
Almost all nuclear plants in the west were built in the 70s and 80s. The number built since is miniscule so of course the costs are going to be huge, they're one off projects.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:38AM (#43255217)
True but irrelevant. The construction of new reactors now is unlikely to be in numbers greater than back then.

(Unless new ones are SMR, which is why there's now business interest in SMRs. They may well have numbers large enough to cut costs).

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by throwaway48476 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:46AM (#43255316)
The other issue is that nuclear research has been underfunded for decades. We could have had new safe effective and cost efficient designs.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:49AM (#43257132)
That is why I say "might, possibly", rather than being firmly yes or no.

R&D is high-variance.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by throwaway48476 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:45PM (#43257812)
Research is, engineering less so.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:56AM (#43265447)
Nuclear energy has had a massive research advantage over its entire lifetime. It simply never delivers due to being horrifically expensive.

You just keep making empty promises that never work out in reality. Just look at Flamanville 3 being 7x over budget and 13 years late on a 5 year construction schedule.

You want more of that?!?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Paradigma11 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:39AM (#43256074)
What kind of battery backup are we talking about?

Enough for a long cold winter night in northern Europe?

Enough for a longer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelflaute ?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:55AM (#43257212)
Yes.

From your link:

"Events that last more than two days over most of Europe happen about once every five years."

I belive that for the EU as a whole, enough for two days works out as about 32 kWh per person. More or less for specific nations.

So, think in terms of what you'd repurpose used EV batteries for prior to fully recycling them.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by patall on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:50AM (#43253832)
Apples to oranges. But in italy, solar with batteries may already be cheaper. Or geothermal energy. But, hey, they want to do a study and the study will find that out too.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by amarcheschi on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:00AM (#43253944)
Geothermal energy is already exploited in italy. About 1/3rd of Tuscany energy production happens thanks to geothermal, which is also used for heating purposes [1]

There are also new plants in the making [2]

Being tuscanian, I visited the museum or geothermal energy in larderello once, the area of larderello is quite uncanny, in some parts the ground is literally fuming steam. There's also a smell of rotten eggs lol

https://www.enelgreenpower.com/stories/articles/2024/10/geot...

https://www.lanazione.it/cronaca/geotermia-patto-regione-ene...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by stavros on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:10AM (#43254055)
Are you sure it was Larderello? Are you sure it wasn't... hell?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by amarcheschi on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:18AM (#43254146)
It definitely resonates a lot, especially since that area has been known for centuries for that type of geothermal activity. I don't know whether Dante visited larderello, but next time I meet a local guide I'll ask them
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by est31 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:06AM (#43254018)
Italy is one of the best countries in the EU to do solar in.

https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jacobp100 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:46AM (#43253801)
Solar is much cheaper than nuclear. Italian new builds need to add solar panels.

Nuclear isn’t a bad option too. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:58AM (#43253923)
The major point here is that nuclear is controllable energy type while solar is not. So comparing only the price is apples to oranges comparison. Most human energy consumers need energy with a fixed rate and all physical metrics withing a tight margin. To prouduce that with only solar energy is impossible.

This means you have to build other energy sources into the grid like gas turbines to be able to control the grid. So if you really want to compare energy prices than you have to look into the TCO.

https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/11q58pe/price_trend...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jacobp100 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:06AM (#43254020)
Solar + batteries is still cheaper than nuclear
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:10AM (#43254066)
In what timeframe?

Solar panels last 20-25 years. Nuclear power plants last for 50+ years and use fraction of the space that solar. It is hard to believe that the TCO is lower. Usually people just looking at the price in the short term and comparing that. Batteries are a whole different can of worms. Super toxic and you need a high volume of those because the energy density is much lower.

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wkat4242 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:17AM (#43254135)
Space isn't really an issue. There's many places that are no good for building but are great for solar, like mountainsides.

Besides, if the Netherlands can have solar then Italy can too. It's much less densely populated.

And nuclear lasts 50+ years with constant maintenance, which is really expensive.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:21AM (#43254188)
> no good for building but are great for solar, like mountainsides.

And what's the cost of building on a mountainside, and how much is maintenance?

> Besides, if the Netherlands can have solar then Italy can too

How much solar are they building in comparison to other sources?

> And nuclear lasts 50+ years with constant maintenance, which is really expensive.

Unlike solar panels built on mountainsides which are not suitable for other types of buildings?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by lukan on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:29AM (#43254285)
Maintaining solar panels will be always way, way, waaay cheaper, than maintaining a nuclear reactor and disposing safely the waste.

Batteries would need to be cheaper, that is all that is needed for italy. In the south, they have sun all year around.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:25AM (#43256803)
See how you decided to completely ignore my question. But I like that on top of that, batteries are not cheap either
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by lukan on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:08PM (#43257380)
See how I am still free to ignore any question you asked and answer just what I want?

Which would be: there is not really a need for stationary batteries to be expensive.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @04:50PM (#43260160)
> See how I am still free to ignore any question you asked and answer just what I want?

It's a very common tactic by renewables maximalists, and I'm very familiar with it

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by lukan on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:21AM (#43263828)
It is a common trait of internet commentators, who are not paid for your education.

"And what's the cost of building on a mountainside, and how much is maintenance?"

Why should I feel it as my duty to answer that specific question to you? Seriously curious.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Thursday March 06, 2025 @03:56AM (#43277988)
Because context matters, and the context of the comment you replied to was literally "oh, we should just build solar panels on mountainsides which are not good for other types of building": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43254135

So the conversation, in context, is literally this:

---

Someone: we should build panels on mountainsides

Me: how much more expensive will building and maintaining them will be?

You: Maintaining solar panels will be always way, way, waaay cheaper than maintaining nuclear. Also batteries will need to become cheaper

Me: Erm... That doesn't answer my question, and on top of that you're admitting batteries are not cheap either

---

But, again, this is on par with what I expect in such discussions

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:15PM (#43260382)
> Maintaining solar panels will be always way, way, waaay cheaper,

Citization needed. Actually we do not know and we are figuring this out.

Few examples:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpJKM65tsCo

- https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/weather/worlds-largest-float...

Batteries would need to be safer, less toxic and less prone to be mined by children in Africa, also orders of magnitude more energy dense.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by notTooFarGone on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:19AM (#43254166)
and in 0-10 years solar make infinitely more power than a nuclear plant.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:17PM (#43260399)
Absolutely. And we can finally infent FTL and fly back in time to stop nuclear to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jacobp100 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:21AM (#43254187)
In the timeframe of the duration of the installation. (Total cost for the whole project + total costs for fuels & maintainance) / (kW generated * lifetime of the project)
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:11PM (#43260342)
Again, comparing apples to oranges.

If 50 years we need to build a single nuclear plant while you have to build twice the solar capacity I doubt that solar come out cheaper.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jacobp100 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:42PM (#43269741)
It literally does come out cheaper. It’s referred to as the LCOE - you can look at the data yourself
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:06AM (#43265518)
The lifetime difference is a standard talking point that sounds good if you don't understand economics but doesn't make a significant difference. It's the latest attempt to avoid having to acknowledge the completely bizarre costs of new nuclear built power through bad math.

CSIRO with GenCost included it in this year's report.

Because capital loses so much value over 80 years ("60 years + construction time) the only people who refer to the potential lifespan are people who don't understand economics. In this, we of course forget that the average nuclear power plant was in operation for 26 years before it closed.

Table 2.1:

https://www.csiro.au/-/media/Energy/GenCost/GenCost2024-25Co...

The difference a completely absurd lifespan makes is a 10% cost reduction. When each plant requires tens of billions in subsidies a 10% cost reduction is still... tens of billions in subsidies.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ossobuco on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:50AM (#43253834)
Sure, but given that hypothetical new nuclear plants would become effective in a decade or more from now, and that we already have an energy crisis, one would expect Italy to first ramp up the fastest option (solar).
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by tigroferoce on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:22AM (#43254196)
Italy (and others) could (and should) do both.

Only thinking in terms of cost is short vision IMO. What happens if in 20/30 years you need to dramatically ramp up the energy generation (maybe everyone will drive electric, maybe house heating will be electric, maybe someone will come up with a new tech that requires a huge amount of energy, ...) and you already covered most of the roofs? or panels and batteries are at their end of life and you need massive investments just to keep up with the status quo?

I woulnd't go in a fight with a fist tied behing my back, and global warming is one of the biggest fights we must face.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ossobuco on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:23AM (#43254973)
I didn't say we shouldn't do both, just that since we are already in an energy crisis, ramping up solar very quickly should be a priority, compared to nuclear plants. Nuclear plants will improve the lives of our children, solar will improve our own lives. The problem is that I'm not hearing anything about solar investments from the Italian government.

Another great move would be to stop the warmongering and to start buying gas from Russia, while we work on solar and nuclear.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by dalyons on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:26AM (#43255021)
I agree in spirit, but given the massive cost premium of nuke power and the impossibility of insurance, the only way new nukes are going to get built in the west is via state guarantees /subsidies. That means higher taxes, or forcing citizens to pay much higher power rates for ~50 years. Both will be very unpopular, especially as green power continues to get cheaper and cheaper
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by surgical_fire on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:53AM (#43253870)
It doesn't matter.

As far as I am concerned, self sufficiency comes before price concerns. Nuclear is very safe and reliable.

By all means, EU countries should keep investing in Solar, Wind, Geotermal, etc. but that should be done alongside Nuclear.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by hengheng on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:16AM (#43254125)
As always with nuclear there are a few taboo topics. One of them being fuel supply. For European reactors that seems to be either Mali/Niger, or Russia. Both not excellent if the goal is geopolitical independence.

Solar, wind and batteries have no fuel concerns, and they are inherently decentralized.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by hocuspocus on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:29AM (#43254286)
Are you joking? Renewables mean one order of magnitude more raw materials imports from China and Chinese operated mining in unstable African countries.

With some work and investment European nuclear fuel supply could be 100% free from Russia, which anyway is peanuts compared to billions spent on Russian LNG. Uranium ore can come from Canada, Kazakhstan and Australia, not only African countries.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:58AM (#43265462)
So what happens to your existing installations when China stops selling renewables?

They will keep working for years as you find new suppliers for spare parts. When the reach EOL you need to find a new supplier.

In the meantime the already existing required firming capacity might be run a bit harder to manage any shortfall.

But in the nuclear cult that is equivalent to still not being able to decouple Europe from the Russian nuclear industry 3 years into the war.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mrweasel on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:58AM (#43255488)
Uranium could be sourced from both Greenland and Ukraine, but realistically Australia, Brazil and South Africa might be better options.

Denmark also have 3700 tons of uranium ore just laying around, not sure how much actual uranium you can extract from that, very little I suspect.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by delroth on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:02AM (#43254713)
> As always with nuclear there are a few taboo topics. One of them being fuel supply.

It's not taboo, the answer is just extremely simple: mining needs people willing to work in a dangerous and exhausting field, so when practical, rich countries tend to prefer outsourcing this (capitalism does not tend to reward ethics). It's very practical for uranium because nuclear reactors need a tiny volume which is trivial to ship and to store. Most countries with a nuclear program keep a stockpile of multiple years.

Mining uranium in other places is very feasible, as are other more expensive options like extracting it out of the ocean. After all, with nuclear the cost of the fuel is a tiny amount of the actual cost of power generation. This is not happening because there's really no need to. In the past, there have been uranium mines in pretty much every european country, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_by_country#Euro...

(Refining/processing is a different story. But that's more obviously a "money/care" problem - there's no possible physical constraint for refining/processing as there could be for mining.)

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wkat4242 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:21AM (#43254192)
Indeed this point is often overlooked.

I know the soviets dug up half the Czech Republic for uranium deposits though. There's still some left there, not sure how much though. I have a feeling that the reliance on Africa and Russia is more price and environmental regulation driven.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by himinlomax on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:38AM (#43254387)
> For European reactors that seems to be either Mali/Niger, or Russia. Both not excellent if the goal is geopolitical independence.

Australia, Kazakhstan and Canada are main suppliers.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by willvarfar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:08AM (#43254041)
> Nuclear is very safe and reliable.

How do we stop fukushima-like disasters?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mrob on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:15AM (#43254109)
By not ignoring studies that find risk of tsunami damage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident#Pri...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wahnfrieden on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:20AM (#43254181)
And how do you stop that? It’s like saying a kingdom is kept safe for its people by avoiding corrupt kings

Your link shows a deeper root cause

> TEPCO admitted that it had failed to take necessary measures for fear of inviting lawsuits or protests against its nuclear plants

Scientific and engineering reports don’t solve that one

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:30AM (#43256870)
> Scientific and engineering reports don’t solve that one

No tell me why we are still building hydroelectric plants?

Hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by klooney on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:14AM (#43254102)
You can't. The problem with nuclear is that it needs to be properly maintained forever. If you get an irresponsible government or power company that cheaps out in 30 years, oopsies, you're going to irradiate the local area.

It's a lot like trusting your private data to a company. Sure, Google in 2007 is pretty great, but maybe you have some doubts about their integrity in 2025. Too late, they have what they have, forever.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:33AM (#43254333)
You can build systems to fail safe, so that lack of proper maintenance leads to the plant becoming safely inoperable, and only grossly-improper maintenance would cause a fallout incident.

Is this guaranteed to work? The Chernobyl disaster was caused by grossly-improper maintenance, so… :shrug:. No matter how many physical safety mechanisms you have, a determined mechanic could remove them – but at that point, it becomes deliberate sabotage, which is rare, detectable, and not unique to nuclear power plants. (You could probably kill more people by destroying the right dam in the middle of the night.)

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by klooney on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254674)
> grossly-improper maintenance would cause a fallout incident.

At scale, in the long run, you will get grossly improper maintenance. I feel comfortable asserting that without feeling like a total cynic.

It's not just nuclear either, this is also a problem with dams.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by account42 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:39AM (#43255232)
... and with every other energy source. The only difference is that some spread the damage out enough to the point where people stop caring vs. (somewhat) larger but incredibly rare incidents that make headlines.

And that's before you take into account second order risks like people dying because they can't afford to heat properly during winter.

The damage from Fukushima has been so small that it wouldn't make it past regional headlines if it didn't involve the scary word "nuclear".

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by klooney on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:48PM (#43261347)
Solar panels fail pretty safe. I guess there's fire risk? Wind turbines are generally located in areas where rapid unscheduled disassembly would be harmless.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wizzwizz4 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @07:31AM (#43279476)
There's also electrocution risk with solar panels. Wind turbines, you can disconnect the generator: solar panels you can't.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:51AM (#43255390)
Nuclear power plants don't need to be built at scale. I reckon we could get away with a few thousand in the entire world. And by "grossly improper", I mean things that are more expensive than correct maintenance, and make the power plant work less well: I can't rule out that anyone would want to do that, but you'd need a bona fide conspiracy (or some kind of purge of all available experts) to even attempt it.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:42AM (#43254438)
>If you get an irresponsible government or power company that cheaps out in 30 years

One solution is to house government officials and their families close-by so they're incentivized to never cheap out.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mrighele on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:47AM (#43254498)
> If you get an irresponsible government or power company that cheaps out in 30 years, oopsies, you're going to irradiate the local area.

How many times did this happen in 80 years? according to [1] not many times.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_nuclear_disasters_and...

And this is including very early technology and government (e.g. the Russian one) that I wouldn't trust with anything.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by klooney on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:04AM (#43254729)
Sure, but this is HN, and we get a lot of The Case For Nuclear Power articles coming through, and startups building micro reactors that everyone thinks are very cool- me too, honestly- but I think that the case against gets given short shrift, or can turned into a strawman.

The consequences of a nuclear incident are very high, and can be more or less permanent for an area. It's a lot to ask for a technology to be absolutely resilient to mismanagement or even sabotage.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:31AM (#43256880)
> The consequences of a nuclear incident are very high, and can be more or less permanent for an area. It's a lot to ask for a technology to be absolutely resilient to mismanagement or even sabotage.

Now apply this logic to many other power sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by stanac on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254668)
There should be international agreements for nuclear energy where neighboring countries can come and inspect each others power plants, or one org on the continent level.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by delroth on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:12AM (#43254817)
You're describing the IAEA, founded in 1957 and in activity since: https://www.iaea.org/topics/verification-and-other-safeguard...
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by philipov on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:04AM (#43254728)
Water-cooled reactors are the ones that are vulnerable to meltdown, but they're not the only way to do Nuclear.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by stavros on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:13AM (#43254086)
Mainly by not building reactors designed in the 1960s.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Ekaros on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:26AM (#43254251)
Better and more modern designs with sensible passive features and so on will solve a lot of the problems compared to these ancient plants.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:00AM (#43255520)
These more modern designs don't solve the primary problem of nuclear, which is cost.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:18AM (#43255779)
That is not really the case.

Nuclear power is extremely cost effective, even with the current plants.

The individual plants are currently expensive, because they are large and produce huge amounts of power. Since that means you only have a fairly small number of plants, that means the risk is higher than preferable.

However, even with existing designs, building a common design multiple times and overlapping the build times brings down risk, build-time and costs tremendously.

The German Konvois were built for DM 5.8 billion in less than 6 years, and we were just getting started.

China is currently building their version of the passively safe Westinghouse AP-1000, the CAP-1400, in 5 years for $ 3.5 billion.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:49AM (#43256227)
Nuclear is being vastly outcompeted globally for new installations of power capacity by renewables. It's not even close. The only inference that can be drawn from this is that renewables beat nuclear in the market, that nuclear is the loser technology economically.

Even in China, two orders of magnitude more PV comes online each year compared to nuclear (nameplate power, adjust by a factor of maybe 4 for levelized power).

Nuclear advocates defending the fantasy you are espousing here have to resort to universal conspiracy theories to explain away this unpleasant reality. But how are supposedly omnipotent greens and public fear supposed to be hindering nuclear's rollout in China?

Nuclear may benefit from experience, but that means that as rollouts are scaled back, experience decays away and nuclear gets more expensive. Below a certain (and probably pretty large) rate of installs, nuclear just regresses. It's not clear even China can avoid this at the current install rate.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:42PM (#43260584)
If that's the only inference you can draw from that, you're not paying attention.

First, you need to compare actual output, not installed capacity. Once you take into account capacity factors, it's not looking so good any longer.

Second, if it were true that nuclear is being "out-competed", then nobody in their right mind would expand their nuclear capacity. Yet almost everyone except a few crazies and countries that are too small are doing exactly that: expanding their nuclear capacity.

Let's see who has decided to get into nuclear / reverse exits / expand capacity:

1. Italy just decided to reverse their exit.

2. Japan had decided to exit, and actually shut down their plants. They are now restarting those plants.

3. South Korea had also decided to exit, but not shut down any plants yet. They have reversed that exit. And are expanding.

4. Poland has decided to start a nuclear program, first 3 reactors are ordered, budgeted and construction has started at the site. There are a lot more planned. The vote for financing the new projects was nearly unanimous in parliament.

5. The UK is so incredibly unhappy with Hinkley Point C that they have just started work on 2 more reactors at Sizewell C, have sited another 2 in Wales and have a policy of expanding nuclear capacity by a factor of 4.

6. The US effectively built no new new plants since the TMI accident. They are now reactivating everything possible, are even planning to finish the two AP-1000s at Virgil C. Summer and have a goal of tripling their nuclear capacity by adding another 200 GW.

7. Sweden has reversed their exit and wants to build 10 new plants

8. The new government in Belgium has reversed their exit, has extended at least one (or was it two?) plant by another 10 years, is trying to save a few more that are/were due to be decommissioned and is looking to build more.

9. France had a ban on expanding their nuclear generating capacity beyond the currently installed capacity. This was lifted in March of 2023 with > 2/3 majority in parliament.

10. The Netherlands originally wanted two new nuclear reactors. They have now decided on 4 large reactors, in addition to the single small one they currently operate. This will be a 10x expansion of their nuclear capacity.

11. India is on track to triple their capacity by 2031.

12. China is currently starting 10 new reactors a year, and the rate is still increasing. Why aren't they doing more? Well, one reason is that nuclear power plants last for a really long time, currently estimated at least 80-100 years for most of the well-maintained plants. If you build 10 per year and they last 100 years, that implies a fleet of 1000 reactors. That's a lot of reactors!

France made this mistake, they built around 50 reactors in only 15 years, due to vastly overestimating electricity demand. The result was that they the nuclear industry they built up had essentially no plants to build for a good number of decades, and so that know-how and capability was lost and had to be re-acquired at great cost (see Flamanville 3).

Countries have learned from this and are pacing themselves. No need to rush.

13. The Czech Republic is betting on both large reactors from South Korea (the APR-1400, IIRC) as well as SMRs from Rolls Royce. In fact, they took a 20% in Rolls Royce.

14. Switzerland has begun the process of undoing their exit decision

15. Even Norway and Denmark are considering nuclear

16. The UAE, with ideal conditions for solar (desert), has recently completed a 4 reactor power plant, and is considering adding more.

... and so on and so forth ...

Why are all these countries expanding nuclear? Is the entire rest of the world stupid? Crazy? Only Germany knows what they're doing?

No.

What they know is that a nuclear + renewable mix is significantly cheaper and more reliably than any attempt to do 100% intermittent renewables, even if that were feasible, which is more than uncertain.

It is only (mostly?) in Germany where this crazy notion that nuclear and renewables are mutually exclusive has taken hold. They are not. They complement each other.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:01AM (#43265483)
I see an enormous amount of talk without money being spent. It is easy to say you "Consider nuclear power" when facing an energy crisis.

As soon as the bill hits the political discussions tend to turn.

See for example the Polish example:

> Poland plans to support this investment through:

> - (i) an equity injection of approximately €14 billion covering 30% of the project's costs;

> - (ii) State guarantees covering 100% of debt taken by PEJ to finance the investment project;

> - (iii) a two-way contract for difference (‘CfD') providing revenue stability over the entire lifetime of the power plant of 60 years.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...

The subsidies to get a single reactor starting construction are absolutely bisarre.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:16PM (#43269456)
If you don't see the money being spent, then you're not paying attention, particularly since you then (incorrectly) chastise the poles for ... er ... spending money

The first Polish plant is not a "single reactor". It is 3 reactors.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @01:14PM (#43270167)
It seems like you are dreaming up a fantasy not matched by reality.

The poles haven’t spent money, that is an application for the EU commission to review the subsidies.

Not a single final investment decision is taken.

Even the French are postponing the EPR2 program due to the horrific costs. Now it might begin in 2026, if they can politically agree to the mindbogglingly large subsidies.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:02PM (#43270746)
"Poland approves $14.7bn for first nuclear power plant"

https://www.power-technology.com/news/poland-14-7bn-nuclear-...

Of course they haven't spent the money yet.

> Even the French are postponing the EPR2 program due to the horrific costs

Completely untrue.

And French nuclear is not subsidized. Unlike renewables.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:08PM (#43270828)
With no final investment decision taken. Like I said.

It is a program championed by the previous hard right authoritarian government with not as enthusiastic interest by the current polish government.

> And French nuclear is not subsidized. Unlike renewables.

Why do you keep making stuff up which is easily findable? Is accepting reality that hard?

The EPR2 program hinges on absolutely massive subsidies. The French auditing agency said that even assuming insanely low capital costs and profit margins it makes a large loss.

Taking real figures it just becomes stupid.

The French auditing agency recommended to postpone the EPR2 program due to the low value and incredibly high costs.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @03:48PM (#43272162)
Here's the report:

https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/2025-01/20250114...

What they said about EPR2 is that they were refused the information to even make an estimate of its profitability. Translation (using DocLingo) from page 25:

"In its 2020 report on the EPR sector, the Court recommended that EDF 'calculate the projected profitability of the Flamanville 3 reactor and the EPR2 and ensure its monitoring' (recommendation no. 6). EDF has deliberately and persistently refused to provide the Court with information on the projected profitability and production costs, which leads to considering this recommendation as not implemented. work.

Based on the information at its disposal, the Court's calculation predicts a poor profitability for Flamanville 3. For its part, the EPR2 program is still characterized by the absence of a finalized estimate and a financing plan."

Any claims of profitability of EPR/EPR2 should be taken with heavy skepticism, given that the official auditors have been stonewalled.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:05PM (#43273293)
Just like everything else you've written so far, this is also patently untrue.

The French auditors said that Flamannville 3, the solitary EPR prototype, will be "marginally" profitable. This is one of the most catastrophic builds in recent history. And it will still be more profitable than any of the intermittent renewable projects in Europe.

EDF does in fact, receive subsidies from the French government. For their renewables projects. Not for their nuclear projects. Which pay for all this nonsense.

Compared to the EPR, the EPR2 is vastly simplified, for better buildability. The complaint there was that they were moving too quickly for the auditors, as they didn't have all the documentation they would like to have.

Compare this with the absolutely devastating report of the Bundesrechnungshof, the German auditors, on the failed German Energiewende.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jovial_cavalier on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:14AM (#43254100)
The death toll from that incident was one (1).

You can see online, nuclear power is actually one of the safest methods of energy generation, behind solar and ahead of wind, because sometimes dudes fall from the tops of the windmills.

Could you start looking at the second-order effects of the meltdown to get a higher death toll? Probably, but you could probably also look at all of the pollutants generated by solar panels, and the fact that they get shipped to Africa and crushed up and thrown in the ground to make solar's death toll look higher too.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wkat4242 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:24AM (#43254226)
Death toll isn't the only metric for accident severity. Environmental pollution is really important too.

And with Fukushima we were kinda lucky. It was still a double meltdown with several hydrogen explosions and could have been much worse.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jovial_cavalier on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:58AM (#43255491)
I think I already addressed this point. You also need to think about second-order effects, but like I said, there are second order effects to all of these solutions. Just because nuclear's side effects are more easy to dramatize doesn't mean that it is necessarily more deadly / harmful to the environment.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:02AM (#43255558)
Death toll so far. Projections of cancer deaths from Fukushima go up into the hundreds.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mpweiher on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:14AM (#43255725)
That's not true.

The WHO says there will be no detectable health effects.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @12:55PM (#43257936)
That's because the deaths would be lost in a sea of ordinary cancers. Hundreds of additional cancers would not be detectable; that would be below the statistical noise floor. Not being detectable does not mean they won't occur.

Anyway, let me steelman what you're aiming at here. I think you want to argue not that hundreds of deaths won't occur, but that hundreds of deaths don't matter that much. These are statistical deaths, so it's appropriate to treat them using the "statistical value of a human life". This is the value of a life to be used for policy purposes (like deciding if a safety measure is needed, if spending on a medical treatment is appropriate, etc.) In the US, it's around $12M per life. So, 200 (say) deaths would have a value of $2.4B. This is not enormous compared to overall cost of the accident, even to the utility. It could be reasonable to treat radiation releases as at Fukushima by fining the polluter by an amount related to this value.

Under this sort of regulatory regime, the purpose of regulations is not to avoid all releases, but to keep the releases small enough that the utilities would have the resources to pay the fines. So, no 100,000 death accidents. Nuclear power plants designed to this concept could allow some small radiation release in accidents.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by raverbashing on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:18AM (#43254140)
In the same way we have handled other dangerous activities (including aviation and driving around with sloshing flammable liquids)

Improving continuously, having strict but not restrictive regulation, addressing risks before they become a problem.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wahnfrieden on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:25AM (#43254236)
TEPCO decided to ignore regulations and reports on how they could improve and reduce risks. How do you solve corruption?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by raverbashing on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:41AM (#43254421)
Aircraft can be grounded, so I'd say in some cases some more stringent enforcement is needed
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by IsTom on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:20AM (#43254177)
Just don't build the plant next to Vesuvius. The biggest recorded earthquake in Europe was 7.1 magnitude, compared to 7.4 that caused tsunami that hit fukushima.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wkat4242 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:23AM (#43254204)
The thing is, it's not the biggest earthquake in the past we have to worry about, it's the biggest one in the future.

And climate change can have very sudden and unpredictable results too as we've seen all over the world in recent years.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by IsTom on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:53AM (#43254601)
Europe just isn't a particularly seismically active and then only it's mostly southern Europe.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by willvarfar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:55AM (#43255445)
The article is about nuclear plants in Italy.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by account42 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:50AM (#43255378)
Do you have any evidence to indicate that earthquakes could increase due to climate or is this just FUD.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by willvarfar on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:54AM (#43255436)
The poster isn't saying they are related. The poster is listing two separate things.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wkat4242 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:33PM (#43261258)
No I didn't say that but extreme weather as a result of climate change is another major risk factor.

Look at what happened here in Spain in Valencia only a few months ago. Unprecedented in the region's recorded history. Yet it keeps happening more and more.

But I can see how the way I worded it suggests I meant that yes. I should have been clearer. What I did mean to say is that recorded history is like a microsecond in geological time and I wouldn't put too much confidence in predicting based on that short period.

But they are two different risks. Over exacerbated by climate change, the other indeed not.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by troupo on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:25AM (#43254233)
How do we stop Banqiao Dam-like disasters?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by N0isRESFe8GXmqR on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:27AM (#43254263)
By building nuclear plants in places that won't get hit by tsunamis.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mrighele on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:37AM (#43254381)
Accidents happen, you cannot eliminate completely the risk, but that is fine as long as you minimize the risk. People died because of wind power [1] but since the event is quite rare we don't ask ourselves "how do we stop wind-power-related disasters".

In the case of Fukishima, only one person died directly because of it. About 2000 more deaths can be related to the nuclear accident, for example because they were displaced and living in worse conditions [2]. Since this is the kind of event that every few decades (we have to go back to Chernobyl for something similar) I would say that it is not a reason for worrying.

For comparison, that is 1/10 of people that died in Japan because of the Tsunami that caused it, and it is less than the number of people that die every year for traffic accidents in Italy, so if I was Italian (wait, I am!) I would be more worried about the road traffic than a nuclear accident.

[1] https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2024/07/two-engineers-h...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cas...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by philipov on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:58AM (#43254651)
Different types of reactors have less risk of meltdown. Look up Molten-Salt Reactors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUnik4gxrtM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_reactor

> MSRs eliminate the nuclear meltdown scenario present in water-cooled reactors because the fuel mixture is kept in a molten state. The fuel mixture is designed to drain without pumping from the core to a containment vessel in emergency scenarios, where the fuel solidifies, quenching the reaction.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by surgical_fire on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:04AM (#43254726)
How many people died at the Fukushima disaster?

As one of the worst Nuclear accidents in history (caused by one of the largest earthquakes to hit Japan along with a tsunami), an awfully small amount of people died.

If anything, Fukushima shows how safe Nuclear actually is.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by hoseja on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:31AM (#43255117)
There was no nuclear disaster at Fukushima. There was a tsunami and there was a destruction of a nuclear power plant. There were a couple cancers and an undetectable release of tritiated water into the Pacific Freaking Ocean.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by account42 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:32AM (#43255131)
A minor concern compared to pollution from other energy sources, including "renewable" ones once you include all materials needed.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:57AM (#43265455)
Why waste money on horrifically expensive nuclear power?

Look at the energy crisis. Did we have a lack of energy? No, the pricing mechanism made sure we had no rolling blackouts.

Did we have expensive energy? Yes, that was the whole crisis.

You want to lock in another energy crisis because you are completely locked into trying to justify building nuclear power.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by frafra on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:47AM (#43253806)
Price != cost/value. You can produce cheap electricity at noon, which would have little value.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by jonplackett on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:54AM (#43253880)
Isn’t this a pretty much solved problem though? Just add a battery to your house?

Batteries are just going to get better - especially over a 10y time span

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by mik1998 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:03AM (#43253978)
Batteries simply raise the price of power up by 10x if not more. Not a viable solution.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by notTooFarGone on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:22AM (#43254195)
Are batteries cheaper in 5-10 years?

How about large nuclear plants, what are the probabilities of cost overruns and who is insuring that?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by intrasight on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254677)
These nuclear cost arguments always gloss over the fact that nuclear has no insurance or cleanup costs. Developers will only build plants if the government assumes both of those costs.

Add to that the uncertainty over fuel and the disposal of used fuel, and there's literally no valid cost argument for nuclear.

I'm not anti-nuclear, but the fiscal realities seem insurmountable.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by adrianN on Thursday March 06, 2025 @03:58AM (#43278007)
No they don't. The energy you get from your battery costs 10x as much as directly from the panels, but you only get a fraction of your energy from storage.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by simion314 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:01AM (#43253958)
>Isn’t this a pretty much solved problem though? Just add a battery to your house?

In winter the days are short, the sky can be covered in clouds for an entire week, the solar panels can be covered in snow also. I have solar panels but I do not have a way to export my data to show you the summer vs winter GIANT difference.

So people like me with solar need the other people in the area not to all go for solar, then we will need to find a way to burn the excess. Is the same with a country, we can't store the energy from summer for winter and also resist for say 2 weeks of snow and clouds. The EU market might be so in demand that the rich countries will bid for the energy and the poor will have to burn their things to survive.

I am wondering if it would happen that with so many solar roofs we will either have to pay for people to use my energy or I will need to actually throw the excess in the ground safely somehow.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:25AM (#43254228)
> In winter the days are short, the sky can be covered in clouds for an entire week, the solar panels can be covered in snow also. I have solar panels but I do not have a way to export my data to show you the summer vs winter GIANT difference.

Short days, but still enough to make a lot of juice in Italy. Scotland and Scandinavia get issues, but Italy's basically OK for winter: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%28sunrise%2C+Rome%2C+2...

And: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09601...

> we can't store the energy from summer for winter and also resist for say 2 weeks of snow and clouds

You, personally, can't store 2 weeks of energy (though it's closer than you may expect, 1 person-week of Italian average electrical consumption is ~= 1 EV battery*). But you personally don't have to, transmission to another part of the country (or continent) has a huge impact on how much storage you need.

Basically, this problem is known, it's not all that difficult to work around — everything on the scale of "national power supply" is expensive and has pros and cons, PV isn't particularly remarkable in the scale or cost of those pros and cons even with current solutions and assuming no R&D effort can improve the trade-offs, they're just different than the pros and cons of the other options.

* https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%28%28%28300+terawatt-h...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by simion314 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:47AM (#43263308)
The real life is not as simple as you wish The energy I produce can only go to my neighbors, it can't be sent to a different region in the same village it is a grid limitation.

Also when the weather is bad it is bad in a big chunk of Europe, sure in the South they will probably have nicer weather.

What about the issue when everyone has solar? then who buys my extra production? Or if there is someone that can buy it because of too much solar the prices would be close to zero then the solar panels investment will not be worth it since you could be cheap energy from the people with solar panels when the weather is good.

My gut feeling is that 100% solar is stupid, it is like the 20-80 problem we see now a lot of growth since it is very profitable, when more grid investment is needed and profits will go down this growth will stop.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @03:35AM (#43264283)
> The real life is not as simple as you wish The energy I produce can only go to my neighbors, it can't be sent to a different region in the same village it is a grid limitation.

I would need to write something the size of a PhD thesis, not a comment, to fully describe the various possibilities and their trade-offs for even just the Italian grid, let alone the whole of Europe's.

But to keep it simple, I can say that limits of your grid can be re-engineered, and even for unrelated age and capacity reasons people are already planning to spend more on upgrading the European grid anyway, than it would cost for the material to build a global high-power DC backbone that would let the EU be lit in the middle of night, in the middle of winter, without any batteries at all, by panels in the Australian outback — and I have in fact done the maths on that.

(Only China is actually making enough aluminium, there's geopolitics even before Trump happened, but the price tag to get a single ohm of resistance around the entire planet is actually fine).

> Or if there is someone that can buy it because of too much solar the prices would be close to zero then the solar panels investment will not be worth it since you could be cheap energy from the people with solar panels when the weather is good.

Such investment is still generally worth it, because you don't need to actually sell anything when the price is low (or even negative), and even if it was zero the whole time forever, you've saved 100% of the current cost of supplying yourself with electricity.

> My gut feeling is that 100% solar is stupid, it is like the 20-80 problem we see now a lot of growth since it is very profitable, when more grid investment is needed and profits will go down this growth will stop.

100% anything leads to correlated failures.

But there's several other renewables.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by simion314 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:26AM (#43265644)
So are you expert in grids? is it cheap to make it possible to get the electricity from homes, and resue or add new transformers to raise the voltage to medium then high voltage and use the same high voltage lines and whatever they use to get the energy from homes in Italy to homes in Romania ?

About costs, if the solar panels will cost me 20 years of paying my bills but they will maybe break in 10 years then it is a waste of my money, I can buy the energy directly and lose less money.

I bought the panels because they were subsidized otherwise there would be more profitable to buy the energy, without subsidies and if energy will be cheaper or I would get paid to use it then solar panels would make no sense .

Imagine then a country that needs to over build solar panels, why would private sector accept this?

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ben_w on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:17AM (#43266023)
> So are you expert in grids?

Interested amateur. I skim read the actual government and industrial reports, and know enough to be able to roughly estimate the effort required to construct precise answers.

> is it cheap to make it possible to get the electricity from homes, and resue or add new transformers to raise the voltage to medium then high voltage and use the same high voltage lines and whatever they use to get the energy from homes in Italy to homes in Romania ?

"Cheap" is already the wrong question: on this scale, energy is measured in percentage points of the economy, opportunity loss from what else can be done with the same resources, geopolitical exposure, not pure €, and that means questions like "is it cheap?" can only be considered against everything else the governments can do with the same resources — not even just other energy projects, absolutely everything, and how everything interacts with everything else, has to be taken into consideration.

Consider this: https://eepublicdownloads.blob.core.windows.net/public-cdn-c...

If you limit yourself to just €, the scenarios on page 7 say that improving the grid would:

• 2030: reduce wasted power by 2 GW while saving €5 billion per year in wasted energy

• 2040: reduce wasted power by 4.8 GW while saving €9 billion per year in wasted energy

While another pair of options on page 22 shows:

• €5.6 billion per year invested, returns of €9.4 billion per year

• €3.6 billion per year invested, returns of €8.6 billion per year

But! The report is also has a section header titled "Does the study consider the EU’s goal to reduce dependency on gas imports?" with several specific mentions of Russia throughout.

> About costs, if the solar panels will cost me 20 years of paying my bills but they will maybe break in 10 years then it is a waste of my money, I can buy the energy directly and lose less money.

When did you buy?

I think you're over-estimating the current price of PV by a factor of about 15-25 — here's one of my local supermarkets, this price pays for itself in about *one* year: https://www.kaufland.de/product/456527791/?search_value=phot...

I believe Italian electricity (you are in Italy, right?) is slightly cheaper than German electricity, but that's more than compensated for by having more sun.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by account42 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:02AM (#43256426)
> I am wondering if it would happen that with so many solar roofs we will either have to pay for people to use my energy

This is already the case - Germany ends up paying for both electricity exports and imports.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:01AM (#43253956)
Most people do not understand this and think that we can reall talk about nuclear vs solar when we really need to talk about an energy mix where you pick one point (for example you pick nuclear or solar) and the rest depends on this choice.

Than you can calculate the price.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by scrlk on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:59AM (#43254681)
To add, it's worth reading the Levelized Full System Costs of Electricity paper: https://iaee2021online.org/download/contribution/fullpaper/1...

Energy mix is key: the cost of 100% dependency on intermittent renewables is extremely high.

Going for 95% dependency on intermittent renewables with the remainder being filled in by low-cost dispatchable generation halves system costs (see table 6, pg. 21).

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by dalyons on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:28AM (#43255058)
95% renewables would be incredible, I’ll take it :)
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by datadeft on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @05:09PM (#43260324)
Thanks a lot, this is a must read indeed.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ViewTrick1002 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:04AM (#43265501)
So you've managed to cherry pick the one study showing nuclear power in any kind of possible light. Typical.

You do know that the study is only applicable to running your off-grid cabin from a sole source and battery storage based on 2020 costs. The study also assumes 100% uptime for nuclear power.

It does not deal with demand shifts, it does not deal with transmission, it does not deal with backup power.

It also managed to finds a nuclear LFSCOE of $106/MWh. Even though it doesn't adapt to peaks or breakdowns when Hinkley Point C sits at $170/MWh when running at full tilt for 35 years.

Whenever we do quality research on the subject the results end up being that nuclear power is horrifically expensive.

See for example:

See the recent study on Denmark which found that nuclear power needs to come down 85% in cost to be competitive with renewables when looking into total system costs for a fully decarbonized grid, due to both options requiring flexibility to meet the grid load.

> Focusing on the case of Denmark, this article investigates a future fully sector-coupled energy system in a carbon-neutral society and compares the operation and costs of renewables and nuclear-based energy systems.

> The study finds that investments in flexibility in the electricity supply are needed in both systems due to the constant production pattern of nuclear and the variability of renewable energy sources.

> However, the scenario with high nuclear implementation is 1.2 billion EUR more expensive annually compared to a scenario only based on renewables, with all systems completely balancing supply and demand across all energy sectors in every hour.

> For nuclear power to be cost competitive with renewables an investment cost of 1.55 MEUR/MW must be achieved, which is substantially below any cost projection for nuclear power.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626192...

Or the same for Australia if you went a more sunny locale finding that renewables ends up with a grid costing less than half of "best case nth of a kind nuclear power":

https://www.csiro.au/-/media/Energy/GenCost/GenCost2024-25Co...

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by scrlk on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:07PM (#43274018)
I think you misinterpreted my comment. I'm advocating for an energy mix where the majority of energy is supplied by intermittent renewables with a small amount of low-cost (i.e. not nuclear) dispatchable generation. This avoids the extortionate "last mile" of costs when utilising 100% intermittent renewables.

The Clean Power 2030 report from NESO came to a similar conclusion. See Insights from our clean power sensitivities, pg 53: https://www.neso.energy/document/346651/download

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ossobuco on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:47AM (#43253809)
Probably the fact that we should first admit we have something to learn from China?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by ReptileMan on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:58AM (#43253922)
China spans couple of timezones, Italy is a boot.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by FredrikSE on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:50AM (#43253828)
Well, solar and wind are only usable when it is sunny or windy. The only way to make solar or wind power sustainable is to have ways to store the energy, like hydroplants or hydro pump stations. Right now, they are sabotaging the economy to build sustainable sources.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by baliex on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:54AM (#43253878)
If you add storage to the network you can store the surplus renewable generation for later dispatch, Europe's largest just went online: https://archive.is/p9qsS
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by cinntaile on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:04AM (#43253991)
Their math is a bit off though... 300MW is not enough for 3.1 million households. That's 97W per household for like 2 hours.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Numerlor on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:01AM (#43253961)
To my understanding the use of nuclear would be to reduce the ammount of spread out battery stations that'd have to cover the base load when cloudy / at night.

There'd also be less overbuilding of solar as you have to build for winter weather and day length instead of summer if solar is supposed to cover everything

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @10:04AM (#43255577)
Covering winter with renewables would use longer term storage than batteries, for example hydrogen.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pfdietz on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:49AM (#43253827)
> Isn't the price of a KW of solar panels similar to the price of a KW of nuclear power these days?

Solar panels are down to something like $0.20/W, a factor of 50 cheaper than a nuclear power plant. Solar panels are only a fraction of the cost of a solar installation though. Utility-scale solar is around $1/W, a factor of 10 below nuclear. Adjusting for capacity factor, solar is still several times cheaper than nuclear (and has lower operating cost).

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by patall on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @07:51AM (#43253846)
And takes weeks to plan and set up. Compared to decades.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by wonderwonder on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:13AM (#43254091)
Government can centralize the cost of nuclear. All goes to 1 contractor who builds it. With solar, every house is a different size so each house will have a different cost. Pretty hard political sell to tell your voters you are going to give more to the rich because they have bigger houses. Totally makes sense from a "well they use and pay for more power" perspective but a really hard sell politically. Plus renters get nothing.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by est31 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:18AM (#43254149)
Indeed rooftop solar is something that rich people benefit from the most: it's a fun gimmick that people who own houses can use to dodge taxes and network fees. The most cost effective solar deployments are larger industrial setups due to the economics of scale. From a national economy point of view, rooftop solar makes less sense. Someone still needs to pay for the network after all, it just gets onto someone else's shoulders.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by Ekaros on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:33AM (#43254338)
The direction where market must go on that is clear. Higher standing charges for grid connection, more variable market rates. And maybe also more variable transfer rates. Meaning that roof top solar will get less economical as true costs will shift to times when energy is pulled from the grid. Home batteries will shift some of this, but if you want power after they are dark and everyone else want it too it will be expensive.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by bsza on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:24AM (#43254225)
Personally, I will install batteries in my cellar when they no longer spontaneously burst into flames that are impossible to put out.

But this shouldn’t even be a requirement as long as you can feed it into the grid.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by bmelton on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:35AM (#43254352)
LiCoO2 / NMC aren't the popular chemistries any more. LiFePo4 is a remarkably stable chemistry, with extremely low risks of fire.

In the unlikely event that they do catch fire, they are extinguishable with water.

Nothing has zero risk, but there are much more stable chemistries available than those that formed this (rational) opinion.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by bsza on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:26AM (#43255024)
That's reassuring to know, thank you for pointing that out. I didn't get the impression this was already solved since you still keep hearing about battery fires, but hopefully this means that will be a thing of the past soon.

I would still skip this step and let it be the power company's problem though, simply because at ~400 USD / kWh they don't seem very cost efficient for off-peak storage (at least in my country).

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by bmelton on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:37AM (#43255198)
To be sure, they're a cost -- but at least in America, LiFePo4 batteries are practically being given away right now -- 100Ah@12V for ~$100 US. I suspect these are the "let's make hay before the tariffs hit" prices, but there are a lot of unpronounceable brands making surprisingly high quality products in the space.

As for off-peak storage, these would allow you to replace a Tesla powerwall for ~$600-750 US. I don't know your country, or its peaks (or valleys) but on my sailboat, off-peak is night time or cloudy days, and in sunny climes, 600ah gets me nigh infinite power. Without clear skies, I'm limited to ~4-5 days of normal consumption.

(Not trying to nudge you off your position at all, just sort of reflecting/remarking at how practicable this all is at the moment.)

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by adrianN on Thursday March 06, 2025 @03:56AM (#43277990)
I can order 2kWh of LiFePo on Amazon for 500€. Are batteries that much more expensive in the US?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by bee_rider on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:29AM (#43254281)
Look into LiFePO4 batteries
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by kevsamuel on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:34AM (#43254339)
Where and when? For how long? Does it include dealing with wastes? Does it include powerlines, maintenance and land?

It's not a universal answer.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by himinlomax on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @08:36AM (#43254375)
What's the price of solar power at night?
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by rstuart4133 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:47PM (#43262949)
I can give you a real answer: about USD$0.20/kWh.

We are off grid, just purchased solar + batteries that will supply all power needs, including running aircon and hot water at night. That's the purchase price, amortised over 10 years assuming our current daily usage.

The reality is our anticipated power usage will go up with electric cars and the system is speced to cope, and parts will last over twice the 10 years.

I suspect your question was purely retorical. You weren't fishing for an answer is effectively "cheaper than I can buy electricity from the local coal fired utility", but that is the reality. Nuclear costs about twice that.

Notice I'm paying retail. If you are going to compare wholesale prices to the $0.20 you typically have to multiply them by 3.

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by adrianN on Thursday March 06, 2025 @04:04AM (#43278033)
Batteries cost something like $150/kWh and live for a few thousand cycles, so power from batteries costs a couple of cents more than the power used to charge the batteries.
Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by pjc50 on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @09:22AM (#43254959)
Never mind the cost, it has taken the UK over a decade from initial decision to not yet completing Hinkley Point C. Nuclear is really slow to build. You can get a solid decade of carbon-free electricity out of solar panels in that time.

Panels today. Batteries as available. Nuclear eventually - maybe.

(people will respond with "what about SMRs", to which I will ask "what's the shortest time from decision to online that a SMR project has achieved?")

Re:Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance by boringg on Tuesday March 04, 2025 @11:40AM (#43257000)
Different products -- nuclear provides grid stability, power quality and dedicated baseload power. Rooftop solar provides some residential power but not helpful for the grid at large -- requires upgrades to the local infrastructure and decreases reliability. All manageable but people constantly think of power in terms of how much is $/kwh - there is soo many more important qualities to powering the grid than strictly cost.