iOS: That’s 100% against the rules. Much like other dark patterns like forcing a sign up or location access as gating to the rest of the app. Or using notifications for advertising.

Now if only Apple would enforce those (or stop doing them themselves).

Unenforced rules aren't rules so much as taxes on the honest.

That’s a pretty clever phrase!

And a potential cudgel with which to strike those who's success is inconvenient.

Also if they're selectively enforced then they are a way to discriminate.

I've thought about starting a page to call out the apps that abuse push notifications for ads to show that Apple isn't enforcing its rule.

> 4.5.4 ... Push Notifications should not be used for promotions or direct marketing purposes unless customers have explicitly opted in to receive them via consent language displayed in your app’s UI, and you provide a method in your app for a user to opt out from receiving such messages. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges.

The worst offender is DoorDash. If you turn off push ads, after you place an order it will prompt you to turn on notifications "to get the latest on your order". Agreeing turns on ads. You get the prompt even if you already have order update notifications enabled.

I block every single notif from nearly every single program on my phone. The only real exceptions are my bank and brokerage and games I play everyday; you know, stuff I actually care about.

I haven't lost anything from blocking the rest, and I'm not about to start allowing now.

"Notif" because it's Not a question of If I will allow them, also because it's not worthy of being called by a full and proper name.

I just don’t install apps.

4.5.4 was what I was thinking of when I mentioned Apple violating their own rules.

They’ve gotten pretty bad about it.

I got a “rate this app” popup from some Apple app (why should they even care?). Can’t remember which one, though, so it’s pure anecdata.

I suspect that some dependency popped it up.

I’ve seen that too, confused the hell out of me.

Deliveroo as well is incredibly needy about wanting me to let it send me notifications. This has the opposite effect as I assume it'll send me spam notifications constantly.

I have a strict rule that only people are allowed to make my devices notify; apps get notifications disabled by default.

oof - the app we work on at my company does all of these..

Well I understand why people don’t like some of them, the truth is the vast majority of the App Store rules are really good as an end user/consumer.

Unfortunately Apple doesn’t seem to care unless the rule is really good for Apple.

Did you just have an “Are we the baddies?” moment?

They probably get way more reviews with the prompt, and positive ones, than without it, despite how some morally indignant outlier HN commenters would react.

Oh they absolutely work. And given that ratings are about the only thing that matters in the App Store besides search ads, there is a huge incentive to push for it no matter how horrible it is for the user.

If an app pops up a "rate us" modal, it gets a 1-star in the app store, with a note to the developer why. I don't care how great your app is.

Absolutely my practice as well. App devs should never be in the business of nagging for reviews.

I don’t daily drive Android, so I’m not sure if there’s an equivalent, but iOS has a system review nag/prompt that can be disabled globally. If the app lets the system manage it (where it waits a while to see how long you’ve used it before surfacing the prompt, and doesn’t redirect sub-five-star reviews to their own internal tracking), then I’m happy to leave a genuine review. If the app violates any of these rules, I go out of my way to leave a one-star review.

Don’t overrule my preferences in the name of growth hacking.

on my phone, I have play store firewalled and only allow it out when I want updates/install something.

if I could be bothered with the effort, this is the kind of petty I would engage in.

As an indie app developer this makes me really sad. We need reviews otherwise we won’t get enough downloads. Big companies can pay huge amounts on ads, we can’t and thus rely on positive reviews and ratings. Fact is that most users won’t rate unless asked.

If you really like an app give it a nice review.

While I appreciate that need, as a user this is the worst way to get me to review your app. Especially because so many of them aren't tuned for paying any attention at all to what their users are doing before prompting them. I had one app recently prompt me for a review before I'd even completed their "first time tutorial" slide deck. Not only do I not know enough at that point in time to even review the app, but if I was so inclined to click through at that moment it would have been to leave a review complaining about the practice rather than saying anything substantive about the app's functionality. But even when they're not that bad, they're almost always popping up when I open the app (the moment when I'm specifically intending to do something that I'm now being interrupted) or in the middle of some workflow. It's the same annoying behavior that web pop-up folks used to do too.

Personally, I'd rather see you add a small UI element somewhere, or a banner that appears briefly but critically doesn't cover up any controls. If you absolutely MUST use a pop up, you know when the best time to do that is? After I've completed some in app purchase. If I'm spending money on your product, chances are I'm moderately satisfied with it and feeling pretty good about it at that moment. Or if you don't have in app purchases, unless you've made a "content browsing only" app, you probably have some workflows that have a definite end state. Prompt me then, at the end of me doing what I've come to your app to do. But I've never once given a review / stars to any app that has interrupted me in the middle of or at the start of doing something.

The nRF connect app (bluetooth debugging tool, mostly) asks for reviews at the bottom of the changelog for app updates, along with an explanation for why they don't do it inside the app itself. Very glad they handle it that way, and I don't think I've seen any other app that does.

That is a nice way to avoid a dark UX pattern, but very few people actually look at changelogs, so even in that case, a less technical app doing the same thing may be missing a lot of potential reviewers.

Granted, there are plenty of other places to slot a review link in where it could be just as effective.

> Especially because so many of them aren't tuned for paying any attention at all to what their users are doing before prompting them

I had Napper, a baby sleep tracker, ask me to rate the app at 3 am. Yes, I'm definitely going to give a thorough and well-thought review at 3 am.

we will, of our own accord without nagging.

It’s only a guess, but I don’t think data is on your side. I seriously doubt that appreciative users “will, of their own accord with your nagging” rate apps. I’d bet it’s less than 2% who do

Yeah the comment reads as originating from a person who has never tried to sell something. You need to ask to get attention

Or as a knee-jerk reply from a kid when asked to do their homework or take out the garbage. :J

I read it as the tone of someone sick of advertising. I understand you need to sell your product (that I may even like) I just don’t give a fuck. When your UI pisses me me off enough, then you get a rating. I cannot stress this enough: It is not your customer’s job to evangelize your product, even if their literal life depends on its continued existence. Entrepreneurs/sales need to get over themselves.

Signed, Someone who worked in sales.

> You need to ask to get attention

That’s fair, but if you push someone to review your app they’re going to rate it as they see fit, based on what’s important to them, not what the developer thinks is important. If the user feels strongly about a particular element - such as a pop up asking for a rating - they’re going to rate it based on that element. A developer is always free to change the app if they think it’s useful to appeal to that group of users, or ignore that group of users and accept that they don’t like the way you designed the app.

That’s fine, but don’t be upset when your cry for attention is met with a one star review. You’re putting your own needs before those of your users and we all understand why.

Can’t keep working to improve an app if nobody downloads it because nobody knows it exists because nobody ever leaves reviews because nobody reminded the user that reviews are important.

I also don’t like review popups but, excepting egregious examples, I try to be patient because it is beyond most developers’ control that they have to do this in order to maintain a standing in the marketplace.

The data for physical sales definitely show that prompting customers for a review increases the amount of positive reviews you get. It’s basically what rating sites like Trustpilot sells, along with a removal of all those “unrelated you bugged me so you get a 1” reviews, because those sites tend to be a little shady.

This is just a guess, but I’m not sure getting an e-mail asking for a rating a few days after a purchase is really as “get out of my face” inducing as the App pop ups. When I open an app to buy a ticket for public transportation, that is usually while I’m actively boarding the train/bus (because why would I do this in a timely manner?). That is the least likely moment I’ll respond well to review requests. I don’t think I’ve ever been tempted to leave a bad review over one of those emails, but I’m very often tempted to do so by app pop ups. If I’m not the only one then maybe the data would be interesting?

That being said. Unless the 1 star ragers spend time on their review it’s typically rather easy to challenge by the app creator at least in the Apple Store.

Yeah I understand this and definitely do not retaliate against being asked for reviews. I find the usual modal pop-up for a review can be a bit jarring or appear at inopportune moments though, i wonder if not using modals would be better.

Being annoying and jarring is the point.

If u wanted to be less annoying do it after the user has a "win" on your app, after they use it for something useful or they had a fun interaction depending on the type of app.

Don't just interrupt me randomly before I do the thing I need

Then don’t be annoying about them. I do the exact same thing that guy talked about. Dark patterns get explicit 1 stars

Unfortunately an annoying app will out compete a non-annoying app in terms of reviews. Even if a few people like GP 1-star it, it's still worth it since most will 5 star it.

This is the reality, but it's bad. How do we fix it? An App Store policy banning the practice? Global extensions like in web browsers that can use block lists to enable user to hide annoying elements automatically? De-weight reviews from users whose app install orginated from an ad click rather than organically to level the playing field?

A way to fix the problem would be for the App Store to ban that practice _and_ itself nag the users for ratings, in the less annoying way; like, asking you to rate a list of apps you have been using a lot when you open the App Store, and also asking you to rate when you delete an app.

That would be a win for everyone.

Not when you open the app store.

The typical app store workflow for me is I visit the store to download a specific app I'd like to install. That app will then have to download and install while I wait.

That "while I wait" is an ideal time to ask me to rate other recently installed apps, or an app I haven't used in a while.

I came here wanting to say the same thing. It's a lot like Amazon emailing customers periodically to review recent purchases and making it really easy to do it. I pretty often do that and it works! It doesn't feel annoying either because it isn't in my way.

The key is catching the user when they aren't completing a specific task. People often check email to pass time, which is perfect for this.

The best way I've found is: stop using apps. If I'm using the phone, in either making a phone call or using Firefox. Apps might "solve some need", but it seems like all of them are more interested in data collection and selling that data to "their partners". We're better off throwing these black mirrors into the ocean.

> The best way I've found is: stop using apps.

This is what I'm doing as well. Apps have increasingly gotten more annoying in more ways - from unnecessary pop-up notifications (increased permission requests, policy updates, review pan-handling, etc), privacy issues, data hoarding and more. I also hate that almost all of the few remaining apps I do use are constantly pushing new versions into the app store, invariably with only a vaguely non-specific unchanging boilerplate sentence as a change log. Yet I never notice any new functionality or capabilities in the app and all-too-often updates only bring more ads, cross-promotion or other general enshittification (like just renaming or regrouping the same functionality in different ways - apparently for no reason other than to increase some internal aggregate 'usage metric' to hit a KPI). Although I don't know this, I assume app store algorithms must somehow (perhaps unintentionally) incentivize developers to constantly update their apps for little or no reason.

So, as a group, the long-term behavior of app developers has taught me to resist updating the few apps I do still have installed.

Yes. Most of the major apps play this review game, and there's no way to compete if you don't play it too.

The major apps typically exploit selection bias to solicit 5-star reviews. They will wait until the user meets some criteria for "having a good experience" and show an app review prompt at that moment.

Then, having amassed thousands of 5-star reviews, they will turn up the threshold so that only a trickle of the most likely 5-star reviews keep on trickling in to negate any negative organic reviews.

There's a related practice of "pre-prompting" where the app first asks the user whether they are satisfied and only solicits a real app review from those who pass the screening question.

It's all quite shady and makes it hard to trust app reviews. But until the app stores solve this, app developers need to play the game.

if you make a good app don't pester me with popups while i'm using it. that's horrible UX, simple as.

What makes me really sad is that you've identified a problem with capitalism but decide to push it onto your customers. It's true that most users won't rate unless asked, but that just means they don't want to and it's not your place to “make them”. It's not their fault that big companies exist that can pay huge amounts on ads.

But that's the thing, if it pops up a plea for ratings (or an ad or anything else unwanted and annoying), then I really, genuinely and honestly DON'T like the app.

What is there to be sad about? You're getting the feedback you want: Don't beg for things, it's obnoxious and destroys whatever goodwill you have.

If the app is "clean" in terms of respecting users and privacy, I'm totally inclined to rate it when asked. I appreciate the resources required to make them.

You can also ask for reviews nicely without a popup (just show it on some confirmation screen), really no need to bother the user with it.

I only do that if the app asks me for an internal review first, and then, when I give 5 stars, it asks me to give a review again in the store - then I give 1 star.

Only do this for big corporate apps. The little guys are struggling just to keep their heads above the water because Apple punishes them if they aren't getting reviews.

Does the new product have the same ASIN ?

How could they allow this?

New ASIN. They can take a physically unbranded product and list it under a new name brand at will. They can change the quantity or bundle. They can change an irrelevant attribute. Amazon plays ignorant.

I sell a product there and some of my competitors are doing those things I listed. Their reviews are also very obviously fake. I’ve also received some obviously fake negative reviews. I’m not really holding out any hope that it’ll get better anytime soon.

I just reduced my Amazon advertising spend so I can focus on other channels. Also a little bit out of spite.

Isn’t that against App Store TOS?

"Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices"

Surely, 'conspiring to/orchestrating profit through immoral practices' is a more precise statement of Amazon's activities.

*immoral and illegal

> Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices

Yes! As a heavy, long-time Amazon user I hate this and have to believe Amazon is knowingly complicit either in continuing to enable this shady vendor behavior or conveniently looking the other way. Of course, shady vendors will game whatever measures Amazon might take to prevent such tricks but it's so prevalent I don't think Amazon seriously invests in detection/prevention of 'rating swapping' on an ongoing basis anymore.

Another super annoying thing Amazon enables is allowing sellers to list multiple different products (SKUs) on the same listing. This was originally intended for things like different colors or sizes of the same product but it is frequently abused by vendors to bundle quite different products into one listing and thus sharing one rating.

Before they were the overwhelming market leader, Amazon used to care about and invest in the accuracy and credibility of product reviews and ratings. About 10 years ago they seemed to stop putting as much effort toward this and certainly in the past five years they don't seem to care if vendors subvert the system. I understand bad behavior can never be 100% prevented but Amazon could police and penalize it far more effectively. For example, requiring sellers above a certain volume of sales and listings to have increasingly stringent "real ID" type verification, making it harder (or at least more costly) to just relist under a new identity when caught cheating.