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Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @10:38PM (#41575179)
> transferring knowledge from TSMC to a US workforce.

No, no it's not.

When semiconductor manufacture moved to Asia, this was generally done under a "technology transfer agreement", which was an explicit agreement for US companies to transfer their (usually older) tech to an independent local company who would then be allowed to manufacture it and develop it. This is how TSMC started, by doing a deal with Philips to manufacture for them but also to trained on the tech and to be allowed to use it themselves.

This TSMC US fab (and Samsung's new fab) are not under such an agreement, it is directly run by TSMC with no explicit goal to transfer technology. I think it was a mistake for the US CHIPS act funding to go to such a venture without a clause for technology transfer back to a US company.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by llamaimperative on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @10:59PM (#41575321)
Aren’t Philips and ASML both effectively under American control anyway? Is the TSMC part of the stack that special in terms of actual IP (versus more squishy organizational know-how)?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @11:10PM (#41575384)
> Aren’t Philips and ASML both effectively under American control anyway?

IDK about Philips but ASML follows US export restrictions due to a deal it agreed to when it bought a US company a few decades ago, yes.

> Is the TSMC part of the stack that special in terms of actual IP (versus more squishy organizational know-how)?

I don't want to go into too many details as I work in the Intel Foundry but it's certainly both. We'd be very happy to know how TSMC does some specific things, let me put it that way. At the same time, our execution has been dubious since 10 nm.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by _DeadFred_ on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:34AM (#41575823)
Isn't it that ASML has to for continued access to the USA IP that they acquired?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by throwup238 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:54AM (#41576985)
IIRC it wasn’t because of an acquisition but part of a joint venture with ASML, Intel, and some other companies to develop EUV with a bunch of Department of Energy funding that started in the late 1990s.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @10:29AM (#41580155)
Indeed, I was wrong, thanks for the correction.

From Wikipedia:

> In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the CRADA it operates under is funded by the US taxpayer, licensing must be approved by Congress.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by mnau on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:57AM (#41577018)
ASML follows US restrictions because of US power. That purchase is just convinient excuse. If they never bought it, US would force them other way (e. g. access to banking).
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by appendix-rock on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @04:37AM (#41577304)
Political capital exists. A more explicit tit for tat makes these grabs more palatable to people.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by Slartie on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @04:30PM (#41585082)
Europe has banking, too. Even better: nobody in Europe sends paper checks around anymore, we use instant wire transfers here! European banking is way ahead of US banking in a lot of ways.

So, banking is not exactly something that the US can use to coerce a European company. There are much more effective avenues for coercion, though. But IIRC, in this case, the US gov basically convinced the Dutch gov that making ASML adhere to US restrictions would be in the best interest of both of them, and not much coercion was necessary. After all, both countries are on the same side when it comes to the system conflict with China.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by Cyph0n on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @11:11PM (#41575390)
Their competitors have access to the same tech. If TSMC’s process wasn’t special, they wouldn’t be years ahead of the competition.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by kalium-xyz on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @11:20PM (#41575440)
Philips as far as im aware doesnt contribute that much anymore. NXP split off forever ago. Philips may have build TSMC together with the taiwanese government but its hardly relevant nowadays.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by tirant on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @05:19AM (#41577581)
Philips spun off both NXP and ASML years ago, so all their relevancy in chip manufacturing disappeared and went to both companies. Same happened with LED manufacturing, going to Signify NV.

Philips has only kept its expertise in medical devices and a large pool of patents for many technologies (MPEG-2, H264, Ambilight, BluRay, OLED, etc.)

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by klooney on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @10:53PM (#41575286)
The workers can walk away with whatever is in their heads
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by pests on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @10:57PM (#41575308)
Long walk back to Taiwan.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by moooo99 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @01:14AM (#41576038)
I’ve seen this attitude in other fields and while it is conceptually true, the more complex the field, the more workers have to „walk away“ with their knowledge to have enough knowledge to be of any use
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by Joeri on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:25AM (#41576803)
Arizona has enforceable non-compete contracts, so they may walk away with the knowledge but they might not be allowed to use it.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by cududa on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:31AM (#41576841)
Yes, and if China invades Taiwan, those noncompetes are going out the window and/ or the plant is getting nationalized
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by proudeu on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:42AM (#41576910)
TSMC really screwed thesmelves with that deal honestly.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by Washuu on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @04:07AM (#41577084)
I would say as a company having an extra foundry in a less earthquake prone part of the world is a good idea to keep the company alive in the case of a major disaster.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by tonyhart7 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:16AM (#41577909)
well TSMC actually winning on this one because TSMC have another fabs if china invade taiwan

and for taiwan, US has pledged to its security in case of invasion would defend no matter what

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by yodsanklai on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:40AM (#41578034)
> US has pledged to its security in case of invasion would defend no matter what

Maybe with TSMC building chips in the US, that'll be one less reason for the US to defend Taiwan.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by WinstonSmith84 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @07:39AM (#41578464)
This. And it's certainly an argument that has not escaped China (nor Taiwan). If there is a "loser", that's Taiwan.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by tonyhart7 on Thursday September 19, 2024 @04:44AM (#41589853)
nope, US would not give an inch of taiwan in case of invasion

we talking about geo politic here. if china attack taiwan so would be north korea (this is their best chance)

for south korea and japan this is their existensial crisis, having china and north korea close to their home even for a kilometer is basically death sentence

You cant forget also US literally spends billions of dollar to keep balance of power in Europe,Middle-East and Africa

do you think US would ignore Asia where 30+-% world trade and resources happen??? you dnt need expert to figure it out

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by tw1984 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @07:02AM (#41578176)
> US has pledged to its security in case of invasion would defend no matter what

by borrowing 155mm shells from South Korea? cute.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by pas on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @09:55AM (#41579782)
Invasion of Taiwan and deterrence of it hangs on non-land-war stuff.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by EasyMark on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @08:07PM (#41587001)
They can’t move to another state?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by HumblyTossed on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @09:40AM (#41579606)
Walk away to where? And what transferable knowledge?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by lossolo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @09:41AM (#41579612)
These workers didn't create the fab equipment and don't know how to design or create the machinery used there. They also don't have access to the software source code. Most US workers hold maintenance or managerial positions, while those with the deep technical expertise come from Taiwan. There will be no knowledge transfer, aside from how to operate the fab, which is something Intel US employees already know.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by mixmastamyk on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:18PM (#41581848)
Fab equipment is made by other companies. Such as ASML:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KennyBlanken on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @08:12PM (#41587038)
The US workers are almost certainly limited to people who are low to mid level techs who don't know anything useful. Everyone with actual cutting edge knowledge is from Taiwan and almost certainly under the tightest of NDAs and NCAs.

Even high level people in the plant still aren't that useful. What's useful are the insanely expensive, insanely complicated extreme-ultraviolet lithography equipment from ASML. Nobody in the world makes the stuff they do. At least, that we know of. It wouldn't surprise me if the NSA has funded designing and building an EUV lithography system, or just stole the designs from ASML. We know they do a lot of their own ultra-miniature silicon, so they have a strong interest in this sort of tech.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by umanwizard on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @11:00PM (#41575331)
American companies already know how to manufacture older chips. It’s not like TSMC is light years ahead of Intel. They’re ahead, but not by so much that their older generation tech would be transformative.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by insane_dreamer on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:13AM (#41575725)
TSMC is ahead because it adopted ASML's EUV tech earlier than Intel (huge blunder by Intel). The real tech breakthroughs came from ASML, and Intel now has that technology too (and is trying to leapfrog TSMC by being the first to get the new High-NA EUV from ASML, though it won't actually producing sub-3nm chips with it until 2025 or maybe 2026).
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:26AM (#41575782)
> TSMC is ahead because it adopted ASML's EUV

Depends what you mean by "adopted". Pretty sure Intel had EUV prototypes before TSMC (or at least very close), but it was slower to transition its high volume production to it due to execution issues.

> The real tech breakthroughs came from ASML

I know this how the media portrays it now a days but there's so much more to semiconductor manufacturing than lithography, especially since the serious slowdown of lithography scaling with around 193 and 193i litho.

Great example is GlobalFoundry which sent its EUV machine back because it realized it could not compete on the R&D needed to keep up with the other foundries.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by insane_dreamer on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:22PM (#41584302)
> Depends what you mean by "adopted".

by that I mean shipping production chips leveraging EUV

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by 0x457 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @05:14PM (#41585611)
> Depends what you mean by "adopted". Pretty sure Intel had EUV prototypes before TSMC (or at least very close), but it was slower to transition its high volume production to it due to execution issues.

EUV by ASML was not possible until there was a technology to create focusing lenses for it. Intel decided not to "wait" and use their existing technology to beat everyone.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by wtallis on Thursday September 19, 2024 @03:00AM (#41589311)
Wasn't the limitation more about light sources? And don't EUV machines use mirrors rather than lenses?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by HarHarVeryFunny on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @08:05AM (#41578692)
There was recent news of Japan (OIST) developing a new more efficient type of EUV, and also of Canon having a new alternate "nanoimprint" chip manufacturing technology.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/japanese-scientis...

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/new-stamping-chip...

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @11:45AM (#41581272)
Japan has been working on EUV for a long time but is very far from a working machine, despite developing IP. Notice how that article only mentions simulation tests; very very far from getting all the pieces needed for EUV litho.

On the nanoprint technology: as far as I understand it, this will have economic advantages in trailing nodes but is not currently seen as a way to scale past EUV.

Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by insane_dreamer on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:22PM (#41584312)
They're working on it, but for some time now ASML has been the only game in town
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by KK7NIL on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @11:06PM (#41575361)
Semiconductor R&D is very multi-dimensional (despite the media only talking about the one dimensional made up measurement of node size), there are many things Intel could learn from TSMC, and the other way around too.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by throwaway48476 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @03:43AM (#41576917)
TSMC and intel are more directly comparable than, say Sony CMOS image sensors.
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by whimsicalism on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:14PM (#41581782)
Why would TSMC ever agree to such a deal?
Re:Apple Mobile Processors Are Now Made in America. By TSMC by aksss on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @09:28PM (#41587541)
When the island of Taiwan gets the Alderaan treatment, I'm not sure that will be an issue.