My social life suffered greatly being one of the only kids in my highschool without a cellphone. This was the early 2010s in the United States.

Imagine being a teenager and trying to include someone lacking a cellphone to your social group. It adds a huge amount of friction.

Including someone without a cellphone means you give up the ability to be spontaneous (assuming the kid needs to adhere to an agreed-upon schedule to be picked up by a parent), and trivial things become a literal telephone-game ordeal.

It also means almost invariably that the kid is relying on a friend's phone to communicate parents / a ride, unless that kid is so privileged as to own their own car.

Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a friend, they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook Messenger (or whatever sensitive messaging app you use), and to contact a parent?

It also means the kid isn't included in group chats, which means they just aren't part of conversations other kids are having. You can't have a rich social life with someone you can only talk to in classes you share and for 20 minutes during lunch break.

The "green bubble" phenomenon is bad enough as it is. I don't like it, but for all practical reasons, owning a cellphone is necessary for a kids social life in the United States.

> Could you imagine if every time you hung out with a friend, they asked to borrow your phone, open Facebook Messenger (or whatever sensitive messaging app you use), and to contact a parent?

What if the parent could handle such eventualities - based on trust in the child - with no freaking out ?

I'm not sure what you mean.

The point of this quotation is that a cell phone is a very personal thing. It's anxiety inducing and burdensome to hand over your cellphone to someone.

And that's not the mention the power dynamic between the kids with the cellphone and the kid without.

Sorry for ambiguity. What I meant is, what if the parent trusts the kid to do the right thing, and so the kid does not have to call in to the parent for an okay to hang out with a friend ?

This kind of independence might be a social plus for a kid. Something like "I don't need a phone cos I can go where I want until dinnertime". No helicopter parenting.

This only works if the kid lives somewhere with robust public transportation between their and their friends houses, or if they own their own vehicle.

Assuming neither, they're probably getting picked up and dropped off by a parent or other family member, with dropoff/pickup schedules arranged in advance.

It's less, "I don't need a phone cos I can go where I want until dinnertime," and more, "My mom will be driving 25 minutes to pick me up at 4PM, and my friends spontaneously decided to go bowling. I can only ask her when she gets here, but that would mean she needs to drive another hour and fifteen minutes."

It sounds bad for me to be anxious, when friends use each other’s phones. Why should I be anxious?

It is common for people including teenagers to use phones for personal and private things, like internet searches and private messages to other friends.

I can imagine someone who doesn't have their own phone being clumsy (or careless) and accidently dropping it and breaking the screen.

I agree that a cellphone for call/text only is important. I had one too. If you need blue bubbles nowadays, fine, handmedown iPhone with parental controls will do that.

What an appalling, broken social life you want to condemn children to.

I grew up before smartphones and I spoke to people around my own age. I arranged my own travel without parents checking in on me. Bullying assholes didn't need groups to amplify their message which was a good thing.

How are things better now exactly?

Good for you.

I'm describing how things are, not how I want things to be.

OP's comment has nothing to do with what he "wants" for his kids.

Curious, do you have teens? Most people saying things like this don't, but if you do, curious if you've tried this and it works/ed out for you?

It worked when I was a teen (not very long ago) and nearly everyone else had smartphones. I think the people who consider it social suicide are unconvinced that smartphones are a problem to begin with, which like I said is fine if they want that.

Were you popular? I feel like social dynamics must play a role. I mean I'm pretty sure blue vs green bubbles are a big deal in some circles let alone social media.

Moderately, or at least, not socially dead. Only played video games on weekends, including a Minecraft server with friends, which in hindsight still became a bit of an addiction I would've been better without. I was popular in college, and I did have a phone then but barely used it. Having a Facebook account mattered in college purely for class groups, events, and group chats where people coordinated stuff. One thing I don't know is what replaced that (if anything).

So basically, having a PC at home was more than enough.

Another factor is how long ago we’re talking, too. 2024 is quite a bit different vs., for example, 10 years ago.

HS was 10 years ago, college was after. Since 7th grade, most kids had smartphones and were using them all hours of the day. Most people used Facebook, and by hs Minecraft was huge. What changed, aside from old games/platforms getting replaced?

I've heard Insta has a bunch of stuff that can replace FB's remaining uses (not just photo sharing, events and such) but I've never gotten into it so don't really know.

IG doesn't seem to have the equivalent. Events for instance, https://help.instagram.com/448430800019943 says "This feature is only available to professional accounts on Instagram."

Just checked, I'm still in the largest school-wide FB group from college. It ceased posting in 2019 despite technically having over 100K members still. Gonna assume FB groups aren't a thing anymore and it's moved to Discord, but I'm still curious.

n=1 but i didn't have a smartphone until halfway through senior year of hs (2013-2014) whereas most of my peers had one from 2010 onwards. i wouldn't say socially stunted but popularity wise i would say not a full member of the social groups i was tangentially in, not in any group chats, etc.

deep 1-1 connections for the most part because yeah i was texting and messaging people but other than that...i think it's probably only worse now. there are group chats/discords for each social group probably and not having a smartphone would mean you can't participate.

I'm willing to bet that social dynamics around phones at high school in 2024 are markedly different from 2014.

yeah i agree, if it wasn't clear what i meant to say was that i functionally didn't have a smartphone until high school was over, and as a result i think i was socially excluded from a lot of things - the social groups from hs seem to have survived college (which may be a quirk of my specific hs) whereas i only talk to two people who i was deeply close with.

and i think it's even worse now.

Two years ago a coworker became the parent to a teen overnight after his wife's son moved in with them as the sons father booted him to make room for a new wife and kid. Of course this comes with behavioral problems, nothing serious just being rebellious and doesn't listen and the mother levies punishment as needed. Of course kids think they are slick but unfortunately for him his new stepfather is technologically very literate. So every few weeks I hear a new tale of angsty teen son vs parents.

Today he told me the son was banned from phone use for two weeks as a punishment for something. Son hands the phone to the mother last night but she doesn't look at the phone. He asks her to check the phone screen and wouldn't you know - it was missing its sim card. Kid sim swapped to an old phone a friend gave him. Didn't work, mother confiscated his sim card. WiFi? Well the Unifi system he has setup in his house has a separate ssid for the stepson and his gadgets that gets shut off after 10PM on school nights and if he is punished, remains off until the sanctions are lifted. Kid is blacked out on personal devices but is still allowed to - watch TV if he is done with homework or go out with friends in meat space with strict curfew.

The son deals with it because he has no other choice. And I have heard no complaints that he is dying a social death. Just stick to your guns and show them who is in charge - you, the parent.

Taking away the phone for 2 weeks is different than never having a phone for the entirety of high school though.

'social suicide' is a vague term but my daughter has been spending a fair amount of this summer break texting groups of friends and/or playing online multi-player games with friends. Nothing good would come of my taking away her phone.

Idk how to say this exactly, but one thing I've learned from playing online MP games is that people aren't socializing on them, they're just being antisocial as a group.

I'm sure it varies. The peals of laughter coming from her room suggest her experience is different.

It depends on whether the laughter is about the game itself or some personal experience a friend has shared over VC. Cause the loudest room on our dorm floor was always the League+Melee room, and it wasn't cause they were sharing funny stories, it was because Falcon did a moonwalk short-hop reverse-knee fast-fall L-cancel.

They are laughing because someone got killed by Glitch. Fortunately I do have conversations with my kid.

I laugh at the funny HN comments. It is still a solitary activity.

This really isn't the case anymore. People are socializing in Valorant, they're socializing in Lethal Company, they're socializing in Roblox. Very little of this "antisocial in a group" stuff, which I assume you're mostly referencing to stuff like COD players screaming in mic at others (but mostly themselves), mostly because there are now better tools to detect and ban those participating in such.

They've really become digital third places, especially when IRL third places have been overly monetized or destroyed.

I was the Minecraft server admin of my high school, csgo was big in college, I know how it is. Not referring to public matches like CoD. Just cause we were unaliving mobs and building stuff together doesn't mean we were socializing.

It doesn't, but many people do socialize in current games rather than just mindlessly unaliving mobs.

That's a function of the games you play. Online games are a 3rd space for hanging out with your friends. Like sure if all you're doing is joining public matches on CoD or whatever then yeah it's pretty antisocial but hoping on Discord with your friends and playing Minecraft / Roblox / Fortnite / the current meme game de jour then it's a great time. My friends and I currently have a long-running game of Don't Starve Together going.

And it's one of the few activities you can do with friends when you're stuck home on a school night.

Oh our main thing was Minecraft. Must be the longest running popular video game ever.

Minecraft isn't even close to World of Warcraft. Several times the billions and been around since 2004.

yeah, I limit video game time for my kids but don't take it away as that's how they play with their friends currently. So outside time and sports during the day and I let them have game time with friends after dinner. Seems to be a good balance

It obviously depends on circumstance - she doesn't have endless phone time but it's summer and this week she has few other plans.

I don't wish her only social interaction to be on her phone but the fact remains that if I took it away forever it would mostly impact her ability to play with her friends. I don't personally believe that it would be good for her mental health.

Yup, I agree. Kids need to be able to talk with friends. Especially over summer when they cant always see them in person at school. I have zero issues with phones, its just the social media apps I am against.

My kids have a Facetime video chat they all jump on while they game so they can see each other and talk, pretty great actually.

That is nonsense, I was at school with mobile phones before the iPhone (before touchscreens, non-Java-applet apps, 3G, etc.) and it absolutely would've been even then. I mean maybe you'd have gotten away with it being active on MSN, but it'd have been a problem for sure (you arrange to meet someone and then just go there and hope they show up at the right time and don't want to change plans?) and I think far more so today without even considering social media like Instagram & TikTok & whatever that 'everyone' is using.

(They weren't allowed actually at school though, weren't even supposed to be in your locker, so I always think it's a bit weird when it occasionally pops up debate about banning them from schools or that X school has banned them - curious when and why they allowed them, or maybe they were just always allowed to begin with?)

>> then just go there and hope they show up at the right time and don't want to change plans

Why make plans in the first place then? Changing plans at the last minute is really inconsiderate behavior.

Because you're 12 or whatever and do have a phone and so-and-so just texted that everyone (omg, right) is actually going to be down by the river instead, are you coming?

Of course you are, but tanseydavid thinks he's meeting you in town and doesn't have a phone...

Teens don't plan things this way. It's more like, a few are together somewhere, someone is coming late, and the group is a moving target.

I'm only just old enough for it, but before mobile phones (I mean, they existed, but we were schoolchildren not businesspeople, before small relatively cheap Nokias I suppose) we'd 'call on' people to see if they were in and if so did they want to do whatever/go wherever... Thinking about it now, I think mobiles probably had quite a role in changing that: we got phones and then just started texting (hey wuu2 do u wnt 2 go in2 town l8r) instead.

I imagine now it's just straight to the latter, (albeit with less txt spk and more memes & emoji) because children get phones and start making their own plans at about the same age. (And not by coincidence probably - they're arranging to meet friends and going out alone, so parent wants to be able to contact them, to stay in the loop, etc.)

its called spontaneity, and that's a healthy thing.

if you find out about something interesting that you didn't know before, why should you not be able to change your plans to go see or do it?

hey, i just got some free tickets for that show, so how about we cancel dinner and go there?

Regular dumb phones were useful then and are still useful, just for coordinating. Smartphone is a superset of a GameBoy Advance now. Literally kids in my school were emulating GBA on their iPhones. There are in-betweens nowadays like a smartphone with parental controls.

obviously unaware about today's youth

Says the hot gril...

...Seriously I have a hard time seeing it your way. Can you elaborate on your rational? Change my mind?

No. No I don't think I will.

It's practically considered child abuse these days to not give them a smartphone. I'm only slightly exaggerating. I think kids would be better off without them altogether.

What? Giving them the phone. Or not giving them the phone?

Clarified.

Yes.

Having a way to call for help or contact parents is immensely useful, even if it didn't exist when you were young. (Also, when you were young, there were probably pay phones, but those are gone now.)

Smartphones have many other very useful functions.

The real problem is social media.

I would spend long hours talking to my friends on the landline growing up. These helped form deep relationships that were pretty much (atleast for me) impossible to make in the limited amount of time you met them at school. I presume something similar happens around cellphones where you miss out on a lot of discussions and have no context for a lot of the conversations that happen the next day. They really need to be collectively banned, it’s not possible to solve this at an individual level.