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Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by burningChrome on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @01:25PM (#40660659)
I'm still trying to figure out if dealing with OPEC and having to constantly control and monitor some of the most conflict prone areas and governments that have no love for America. . . . OR. . . .having to deal with trying to be energy independent and all the issues that come with it like what's being pointed out in the article.

There is no silver bullet for being able to power a country with 340+ million people - some of who live in very inhospitable climates (Arizona/Alaska) where one solution will work for everything and everybody.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but every time something like this happens, we focus on all the negatives instead of understanding the alternatives aren't that great either.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llsf on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @02:25PM (#40661251)
Energy production is national security. Each country should treat it as national security. US is lucky to have oil/gas fields, but it would not last for ever. Even ignoring the ecological impact of extracting fossil fuel, or impact on climate to burn fossil fuel, the fact that is a limited resource should force the US to move other energy production (e.g. nuclear, solar, wind, hydro) and migrate the energy consumption to electricity... if we want to soft land, when fossil fuel would get expensive (peak production, wars, etc.).
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by EricE on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:44PM (#40662179)
Fossil fuels are not rare. Indeed, the name "fossil fuels" was marketing by Rockefeller and Standard Oil to create the impression of scarcity - much like Debeers has been doing with diamonds.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ben_w on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:58PM (#40662367)
> Indeed, the name "fossil fuels" was marketing by Rockefeller and Standard Oil to create the impression of scarcity

I doubt this:

"The auncient Philosophers affirme, that there haue bene founde fishes vnder the earth, who (for that cause) they called Focilles [French focilles]."

- E. Fenton, translation of P. Boaistuau, Certaine secrete wonders of nature, containing a descriptio[n] of sundry strange things • (translated by Edward Fenton) · 1st edition, 1569, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?q=fossil&tl=true, https://www.oed.com/dictionary/fossil_n?tab=meaning_and_use#...

"From French fossile, from Latin fossilis (“something which has been dug up”), from fodio (“I dig up”)."

- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fossil

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Two4 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:03PM (#40662430)
He's not saying Standard Oil invented the term fossil, he's saying they invented/popularised the term "fossil fuel"
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by lupusreal on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:36PM (#40662801)
Google ngrams reveals his claim to be flagrant horse shit. The term wasn't popular until several decades after standard oil ceased to exist.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by selimthegrim on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @09:27PM (#40664995)
That may be true, but Google ngrams is hardly holy writ in the matter.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @09:50PM (#40665138)
That may be true, but EricE is parroting long-since-debunked fake Facebook memes:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40664837>

Enough bullshit flinging already, eh?

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:49PM (#40664803)
Oddly enough, the term only really took off in the 1970s:

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=fossil%20fuel&...>

Zooming in on the 19th century, the term was already seeing use in the 1770s/80s, and was rising in usage well before 1860, by which time it had reached a peak.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=fossil+fuel&ye...>

The Standard Oil Company was founded in 1882. Its predecessor Standard Oil Company of Ohio was founded in 1870.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil>

I call bullshit on EricE's unfounded claims.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @09:00PM (#40664856)
"Fossil" originates as "obtained by digging", and refers to any mineral resource so obtained. Transferrence to "fossilised remains" (as in dinosaur bones, wood, plants, etc.) is secondary.

1610s, "any thing dug up;" 1650s (adj.) "obtained by digging" (of coal, salt, etc.), from French fossile (16c.), from Latin fossilis "dug up," from fossus, past participle of fodere "to dig," from PIE root bhedh- "to dig, pierce."*

Restricted noun sense of "geological remains of a plant or animal" is from 1736 (the adjective in the sense "pertaining to fossils" is from 1660s); slang meaning "old person" first recorded 1859. Fossil fuel (1833) preserves the earlier, broader sense.

<https://www.etymonline.com/word/fossil>

I'll note that the 1833 date for "fossil fuel" predates establishment of Standard Oil or its predecessors by four decades.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by dredmorbius on Thursday June 13, 2024 @04:40PM (#40674467)
To be clear: I was agreeing with and amplifying the parent comment, not disagreeing with or correcting it.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llamaimperative on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:56PM (#40662333)
You oughta go start an oil company then! The market is booming, can’t imagine how well you’d do with your secret knowledge about scarcity being all a marketing ploy.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by akira2501 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:16PM (#40662583)
Do you really believe that the number of players in the market is a function of scarcity?
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llamaimperative on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:14PM (#40663195)
I think if something important to the market is scarce for other players but abundant for you, then you can easily go make a boatload of money. Just basic supply and demand.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by akira2501 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:00PM (#40664490)
> Just basic supply and demand.

Ah. And where do "cartels" fit into that structure?

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by cjohnson318 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:03PM (#40663087)
I've worked in oil and gas for years. The only reason we're fracking wells with 2000lbs of sand per foot on a 1-2mi horizontal well is because the easy oil in U.S. is all gone. If you could drill a vertical well and have oil gush out like it does in There Will Be Blood, then people would be doing it. Hydraulic fracking only hit snooze on Peak Oil. All of the easy oil is gone, and we're fracking what's left.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llsf on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:08PM (#40665241)
Yes, oil is a limited resource. US became recently the largest oil producer in the world (source: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545) and the additional output comes from the Permian basin only.

Texas became the 8th larger economy thanks to the increasing oil production (larger than Russia or Canada). But Texas should invest that money (like Norway or UAE does) as it won't last for ever. When oil is gone (or too expensive to extract) people will leave Texas, and Texas will be a wasteland with orphan wells everywhere polluting underground water.

In general, it would be wise for US to get an exit plan, for when oil would not be so easy to extract (yes it is more difficult now, but the oil price is still high enough). Oil price can be counter intuitive as it is the main fuel of the world economy. So, if the production declines, the price can go up, but not too much. At some point, economies would shutdown, and the demand would fall sharply. Only the countries that would be out of oil (i.e. using electricity from nuclear, solar, wind, hydro) would continue to be humming. The other countries would enter in chaos, unrest and war. Which would generate economical migrations and more chaos.

Again countries should plan for peak fossil fuel, and even if they are lucky to have some oil underground, they should plan to massively transform their economy to electricity and transition the production from fossil to more sustainable production like nuclear, solar, wind and hydro.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by cjohnson318 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:50PM (#40665438)
> it would be wise for US to get an exit plan

That would be great, but I think we're just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts. Some states are going to aggressively invest in solutions, others will deny any problem exists and then ask for handouts when things go sideways, the government is going to flip flop every one or two terms. Honestly that's one of the better realistic scenarios that we could hope for.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llsf on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:42AM (#40666024)
I agree, that is a likely scenario in US and other countries.

The time horizon for those issues is not compatible with electoral terms. There is no incentive for any politician to tackle such big issue. Even though it might become existential. We would deal with the externalities until we get swallowed as it becomes unavoidable. The more we wait and the more painful it would be.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by bradknowles on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:15PM (#40693654)
Once the Robber Oil Barons have lined their pockets with enough money, they will be free to leave Texas for any other location around the world where they can exploit the local population in all the criminal ways, and make themselves even richer.

That’s what they do. Always.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by defrost on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:23PM (#40665323)

   Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels and industry totaled 37.15 billion metric tons (GtCO₂) in 2022. Emissions are projected to have risen 1.1 percent in 2023 to reach a record high of 37.55 GtCO₂. 
Let's face it, being the largest whale hunter isn't something to boast about.

Instead of pushing upwards to break the 40 Gigatonne per annum ceiling maybe work to reduce consumption patterns, efficiencies, question whether high cost of energy environments are the ideal locations for populations to expand into, etc.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llsf on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:54AM (#40666080)
I was not boasting. But I was echoing the sentiment that we (US) can produce more oil if we want to (as we currently do), as it was an argument against fossil fuel being a limited resource.

The fact that US (Texas in particular) is producing more now, does not mean that the resource is unlimited. Like mentioned before we produce more, but it is more difficult and expensive to produce oil (and not count the ecological impact of fracking).

The only thing that we produce more than ever, means that we are accelerating as we are seeing the wall coming. We are addict to fossil fuel and it is a hell of drug. It is free, we just have to drill. It is energy dense. But like a drug, the more we use it and the less easy it is to use something else.

We need to withdraw, and wean off. The more we wait and the faster the withdrawal would have to be. US needs to build new (extend the old) nuclear reactors, modernize the grid as electricity will power the country more and more, from transportation, heating/cooling, industry, etc.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by defrost on Thursday June 13, 2024 @01:07AM (#40666150)
Fair enough and to be clear I didn't read your comment as such, I added context to the figures to remind others that just because it's there and can be extracted doesn't men that it should.

FWiW I've spent decades in mineral and energy resource exploration and modelling and would likely be regarded by many as "part of the problem".

I'm left with a keen sense of increasing effort for decreasing supply and a strong sense a large part of the problem lies with demand and expectations.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @01:57AM (#40666368)
We have perfectly good plans for shifting off oil as price rises.

If CO2 wasn't building up so fast, the situation would almost be easy.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:56PM (#40664837)
... "fossil fuels" was marketing by Rockefeller ...

Where on Earth did you ever hear such a thing?

Update / edit:

Apparently this is a fake meme floating around Facebook and elsewhere, dating back at least three years:

(Factcheck, 2022): "Facebook posts falsely claim US oil magnate coined term ‘fossil fuels’ to introduce ‘idea of scarcity’, boosting oil prices"

<https://factcheck.afp.com/facebook-posts-falsely-claim-us-oi...>

(Reuters, 2021): "The term ‘fossil fuel’ was not coined by John D. Rockefeller to trick people into thinking oil is a scarce commodity"

<https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2QQ1UK/> Archive / paywall: <https://archive.is/st4q6>

And another debunk from Politifact in 2022: <https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/08/facebook-p...>

I'd strongly encourage folks to improve their media literacy.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by DanielHB on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:55AM (#40667096)
One thing I never understood about government policy with renewable energy is that surely it is a country's best interest to be as much energy independent and energy diversified as possible. Both from national security, geopolitical and economic point of views. Not even considering the environmental impact.

For example, Brazil has a huge production of combustible-grade ethanol which, although subsidised by the government, helps stabilize fuel prices for everyone in the country. When oil prices go up, ethanol production goes up which smooths price fluctuation.

In raw numbers the subsidies probably costs more for the economy than just importing oil when considering the years of cheap oil. But if you take into account all the business that don't collapse and go bankrupt because of that the math doesn't look so clear-cut. That on top of economy diversification.

This is just the economic argument of one alternative energy source in one country. The national security, geopolitical and environmental impacts are even harder to quantify but are extremely important as well.

For example, every country probably benefits a lot from having the ability of deploying more nuclear power plants, so it might be worth building a limited number of them just to keep the industry alive (especially if the industry is local to your country). That is even if you, as a country, decides against nuclear long term.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jvanderbot on Thursday June 13, 2024 @08:08AM (#40668653)
You mistake political interest with national interest, unfortunately.

I think O&G have large constituent voting bases from entire states. Let alone lobbying. Once Solar / Wind employ 1000s of highly concentrated workers for entire lifetimes, you'll see the political winds shift - pun intended.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by kingkawn on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @01:41PM (#40660825)
The military interventions around the world are not only due to our own needs for oil but also to control the access of others. Even if the US was energy independent the national security complex would still insist on invading everywhere
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by lambdasquirrel on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:29PM (#40661991)
It’s not for nothing that Europe and China have been outpacing the U.S. in terms of renewables deployment. The only country that sees military intervention as the fix is us.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by nine_k on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:40PM (#40662838)
Europe, honestly, just can't afford that, even if they wanted. This is why e.g. Germany still has to buy natural gas from Russia, even while supporting the war effort of Ukraine against Russia.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by throwaway_qiwuw on Thursday June 13, 2024 @01:58AM (#40666374)
Actually they built a bunch of LNG terminals very very quickly and now get most of their gas from that

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63709352

You can see rapid progression to zero of Russian imports for natural gas in Germany if you scroll down to the info graphic in this article

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependen...

Germany is also famously anti nuclear

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by b3orn on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:19AM (#40666881)
Most gas in Germany comes via pipelines from Norway, the Netherlands and Belgium. LNG is at around 10%.

https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_g...

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by lupusreal on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:40PM (#40662848)
Not everything is about resources. Are you one of those people who thinks Taiwan is about chips? That conflict predates the chips, it's about face, prestige and reputation, but I often read people on HN saying it's all about chips.

When all you have to explain the world is a hammer every problem will look like a nail. It's a form of cognitive bias.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jazzyjackson on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:32AM (#40665968)
I haven't seen anyone suggest China wants to re-unify because of chips; I would say US's incentive to guard against reunification is supply-chain sensitive.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by lupusreal on Thursday June 13, 2024 @04:35AM (#40667287)
It's a popular narrative that Taiwan can deter an invasion by having their fabs rigged to blow up and thereby depriving China of that resource. But China would want to take Taiwan and terminate the ROC government even if the island were an underdeveloped backwater with nothing of value because it represents a bastion of resistance to the CCP, a hold out from their civil war. Party prestige, not resources.

Furthermore, America has been invested in the defense of Taiwan for far longer than the chips have been involved. America needs to remain committed to Taiwan if it wants other countries, particularly Japan and South Korea, to take America's support seriously. Reputation, not resources.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by CorrectHorseBat on Thursday June 13, 2024 @05:07AM (#40667477)
I mean to remember reading that the chips are mostly there to stop an invasion. Taiwan was afraid of losing US support so the government set up a plan to make the country vital for the US economy, ensuring their protection.

It's probably an exaggeration though

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jazzyjackson on Thursday June 13, 2024 @02:00PM (#40672638)
Fair enough. I have heard the narrative that the chips are economic leverage against an invasion and agree it's an insufficient deterrent.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by burningChrome on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @01:59PM (#40661006)
Our military and standing as a super power has been in decline for a while now. I don't think we really have the military superiority or ability to just simply invade countries any more. With China, Russia and Iran aligning against us both economically and militarily, I don't see much of what you're talking about happening.

Russia annexed Crimea and we did nothing. Russia invaded Ukraine and besides sending billions in aid, we haven't done anything militarily. The attacks against Israel went unprovoked and we've got all we can handle with the anti-Israeli protests going on here on our own soil - let alone trying to send troops to any of these hotspots. China has been sabre rattling about taking over Taiwan and all we can manage at this point are sternly worded memos. Add in the amount of conflict going on in Africa that nobody seems to want to deal with either. All the while China has steadily moved economically in on Africa and has essentially pushed us out of the country altogether.

What you're saying in 2024? I don't see the US has the capabilities to do that any more.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ben_w on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:47PM (#40662221)
I agree that the USA can't invade everywhere, no matter how much the hawks insist.

That said, "Any more"?

Russia is much less of a threat to you now than the USSR was between invading Poland and the fall of the Soviet Union and end of the Warsaw Pact. China and the USSR are why the US didn't win in Vietnam or North Korea, and you've had all those decades of fun with Cuba (including that time Castro offered to send some election monitors to help the US).

In general, the US does well as a team player, but isn't so good when it tries to be a loner. Looking over the Wikipedia list, of the wars you've won without allies, have been against very small, weak, opponents:

• United States invasion of Panama, 1989–1990 (but only if you don't count the Panamanian Opposition as an ally)

• The Tanker War is listed, but the full page for that war says the US was supporting Iraq at the time

• 1986 bombing of Libya

• 1923 Posey War, the main page for which… well, 2 casualties in total, so if that's a war then what are school shootings? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posey_War

• United States occupation of the Dominican Republic (1916–1924)

There were plenty of solitary successes before that, but even the end of that last one was a century ago now. The successes, like WW2, the USA was one country amongst many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...

> Russia invaded Ukraine and besides sending billions in aid, we haven't done anything militarily.

An analyst I follow says this is deliberate, based on the US worldview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ402BMSs8

> The attacks against Israel went unprovoked and we've got all we can handle with the anti-Israeli protests going on here on our own soil - let alone trying to send troops to any of these hotspots.

Israel and the various Palestinian armed groups have been provoking each other for as long as I've been reading news. This doesn't justify any given example of bad judgement on either side, but they've definitely been provoking each other. And you're really not got all you can handle for the anti-Israeli protests, protests are a police action at most, not military.

I can't see the US forces being able to do much to help in the current Israel-Palestine mess, though, no matter what next step you think is the most important for peace in that area — given the politics, the only lever the US can pull on at this point is how many weapons they're willing to sell to Israel… and Israel has a huge weapons industry, about 10% of the global export market.

> China has been sabre rattling about taking over Taiwan and all we can manage at this point are sternly worded memos.

Yes, but that's also basically what's been going on since the Chinese Communist Revolution in 1949, which resulted in the retreat of the Republic of China government to… Taiwan (fun fact: guess which of the two Chinas had a permanent seat in the United Nations Security Council from 1949–1971).

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by golergka on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @02:28PM (#40661278)
Ukranian invasion in particular have shown that US and Europe seriously under-invested in military. While western countries have been able to do very impressive tech, it was produced in small quantities, and once a real (although a regional) war broke out, it became clear that even Russia can drastically outperform western factories in raw production capacity.

With risks of much larger conflict with China become more serious, I really hope that americans reconsider their priorities and invest in military production before it's too late.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Tade0 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:03PM (#40663099)
Russia produces a lot, but loses even more.

Indicators of that include bringing T-55 tanks to the battlefield, which require four, instead of the usual three, crew members to operate, which is troublesome.

They produce artillery rounds at a rate of 250k per month, but fired approximately 10mln during the first two years of the war.

The Black Sea Fleet is unlikely to recover anytime soon - if ever.

The list goes on. What good is production capacity ig it's wasted like that?

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by llamaimperative on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:22PM (#40663258)
Russia is getting its brand new billion dollar (per unit) air defense systems blown up almost weekly by 1990s US equipment bud.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jazzyjackson on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:39AM (#40666007)
Ah, but how many weeks in a row? ;)
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by acdha on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @06:52PM (#40664064)
Is it a production problem or that the US government, especially the House Republicans, won’t approve sharing with Ukraine? Shipments appeared to resume instantly once permission was given, and that’s higher-tech stuff than what Russia is making or even buying from China and Iran.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by nine_k on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:44PM (#40662890)
A hot war between two large nuclear weapons powers?

Nukes are intended to keep peace, as in "mutual assured destruction". And they still work in this capacity :-/

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jazzyjackson on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:36AM (#40665991)
Yes and now that a single hypersonic missile can disarm a carrier group, we can have even more Peace as America is persuaded to stay home /s
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ZeoVII on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:18PM (#40663218)
Nuclear is the future and I would say the only way to achieve a "green" one. There is the issue of spent fuel disposal, but hopefully if fusion technology advances, then even this could be solved.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ok_dad on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:52PM (#40663618)
Also the issue of mining the uranium, which is horrible for the areas mined. Nuclear isn’t an option because of financial reasons anyways and probably never will be, and that’s as a person who loves nuclear and used to be a budding nuclear power plant operator.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by tail_exchange on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:46PM (#40664786)
> Nuclear isn’t an option because of financial reasons anyways

Can you say more? This is probably the first time I hear that nuclear energy is not financially viable.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by doctorwho42 on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:04PM (#40665227)
Not op, but he is probably referring to the costs of building a nuclear power plant in the US which requires a lot of safety systems, concrete, approval process, etc.... the key is that a coal or gas fired power plant would have the same costs of the steam turbine system but the reactor part of the power plant is vastly more complex in terms of controls and safety compared to a gas or coal fired plant.

Long story short, because of the reduced complexity in powerplants using fossil fuels, they are inherently cheaper per kilowatt. And therefore the more complex nuclear power plant costs more to setup and takes longer... Thus increasing the overhead and therefore rate at which one must charge for the power to be economical

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ok_dad on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @09:59PM (#40665200)
It’s too expensive. Every other option is several times cheaper. It’ll never get less expensive because the inherent risks necessitate the expense. These expenses are mostly related to having to plan, construct, and operate a plant with perfection, which costs more than other power generation which don’t have as catastrophic a risk profile. Unfortunately, even with modern reactor designs, the risk remains high, so the cost remains high.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @02:08AM (#40666441)
Almost but not quite.

The rules that require perfection are not there because of actual risk. We're past the point where things are already so safe, and releasing so much less radiation than coal plants, that getting stricter just makes the world worse.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ok_dad on Thursday June 13, 2024 @04:16AM (#40667196)
Keep thinking that, but you’re wrong. Nuclear requires perfection.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by gambiting on Thursday June 13, 2024 @06:17AM (#40667848)
But "perfection" is like the shoreline length paradox - once you look deep enough, you will never achieve perfection, it's physically impossible, so all you're doing is making it impossible for yourself to do anything.

Case in point - UK's latest nuclear power plant has been delayed and costs literally billions of pounds more than planned because hairline fractures were discovered in the reactor containment vessel. That sounds bad, right? Anyone who hears "nuclear containment vessel" and "fracture" immediately goes into panic mode and hence why the amount of money being spent on fixing this issue is literally unlimited and the entire project will be massively over budget in every possible way.

But......other nuclear reactors in britain(and in fact across the world) operate with the same fractures in their vessels and it's not considered a reason to shut them down. It's an inevitability of the manufacturing process, the vessel is still strong enough to withstand any kind of situation it could conceivably end up in, so it's literally nothing. But because it "sounds" bad the British public are spending billions to improve something that doesn't need improving, because like you said "Nuclear requires perfection". And I don't disagree with you in principle, but I think we have to acknowledge that perfection has a number of degrees to it.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jellicle on Thursday June 13, 2024 @07:50AM (#40668475)
> other nuclear reactors in britain(and in fact across the world) operate with the same fractures in their vessels and it's not considered a reason to shut them down

This should be viewed as "corrupted regulators" rather than "magically strong materials".

In 1986, the Challenger blew up. We learned that although originally good safety standards had existed, over time a series of small exceptions had been made, each one on the theory that "hey it never blew up yet, a small change won't matter".

Reactor licensing works like that. Sure, the reactor vessel is cracking which was never expected to happen. Sure, the graphite bricks are cracking which was never expected to happen. The important thing is, it never blew up yet, and that means it's perfectly safe to ignore the problems.

At some future point there will be a Problem and it will be dutifully explained that a series of small deviations from safe practices became normalized, blah-blah, and everyone will nod and take the lesson to heart, until it happens the next time.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by gambiting on Thursday June 13, 2024 @10:52AM (#40670442)
>>This should be viewed as "corrupted regulators" rather than "magically strong materials".

Or you know, the fact that some of these reactors have been operating for close to 50 years and are fine is proof that it is actually indeed fine.

I don't know - would love to hear an expert argue either way.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:42PM (#40673742)
The thing to ask is whether it's part of the (current) design and fully reviewed by engineers. The original design isn't gospel. What matters is updating the analysis.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:44PM (#40673763)
What's the acceptable chance of leaking 100x as much radiation as a coal plant? Same question for 10x, 1x, 0.1x, and 0.01x

If you answer "zero chance" for all of those answers, you're being unreasonable, and choices like that increase the radiation you'll be exposed to.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by gambiting on Thursday June 13, 2024 @06:11AM (#40667807)
>>. Nuclear isn’t an option because of financial reasons anyways and probably never will be

The thing is......the "core" of national energy grid shouldn't operate in the "for profit" model. Any wealthy country should have enough nuclear power stations to be completely independent of any external energy source, even if they lose money operating them. It's a matter of national security, not free market. That's just my 2 cents though.

Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ok_dad on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:15PM (#40673439)
I personally would like to see that, too, and under the auspices of the naval nuclear program currently running in the USA, however I doubt it’s politically feasible.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by burningChrome on Thursday June 13, 2024 @11:05AM (#40670615)
Do you have the same opinion about cobalt and lithium mining? Both are also horrendous for the environment and have major recycling issues, but people continue to push for EV's over ICE autos.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by ok_dad on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:12PM (#40673410)
Sure but those can also be recycled. Standard nuclear reactors cannot. Like I said though, nuclear is financially non viable.
Re:Water is bursting from another abandoned West Texas oil w... by jazzyjackson on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:24AM (#40665922)
energy independence != energy price isolation

we still have to police the red sea despite producing enough oil for ourselves