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Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by esjeon on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:09AM (#40451476)
I've been spending a lot of time on photography (though mostly w/ film cameras) during recent years, and only recently realized this is actually photographed. (It took long because I'm a long-time Linux user, so I barely seen the image.)

Many people say this would've been easier with VFX, but I disagree. The image has highly convincing details that would take a long time even for highly talented VFX artists to nail. Instead, with a camera, you can let the world do the work for you. The studio setup is also very simple (cardboard + acrylic panel + projector + fog) and easy to experiment with. I'm pretty sure photography was the right tool for the project.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by kqr on Thursday May 23, 2024 @04:34AM (#40452102)
Which details are you thinking of? I was under the impression that with ray tracing, physically based materials, and fluid dynamics our computers wouldn't be hard-pressed to realistically render a static scene with light (of varying coherence and other properties) going through a piece of plastic and hitting swirling fog.

The parameters of the scene need to be set up, yes, but then it would be just as easy to generate a few thousand frames from it. Also it's easier to version control for experimentation.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by magicalhippo on Thursday May 23, 2024 @05:29AM (#40452480)
Specular reflections and diffuse media (fog) makes for massive render times though, in my experience.

I did something similarish with water a long time ago, using a spectral renderer, finding spectral data for ocean water absorption and reflection, realistic spectral sun/sky model, and a physically-based ocean wave simulator to create the surface.

The underwater "caustic god rays" looked very nice and realistic, and setting it all up was easy once I had found the data. But it took ages to get rid of the noise.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by kthartic on Thursday May 23, 2024 @05:04AM (#40452310)
In 2015 (almost 10 years ago now) the tech probably wasn't as convincing as it is today. But I agree you could probably get like 90% there
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by xattt on Thursday May 23, 2024 @06:51AM (#40453073)
The Stranger Things intro scene is CGI. Artists were consulted who originally created similar titles in the 80s with practical effects to see how they could do it too. The old-school artists said to just do it in CGI because that’s what they would have done.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by bombcar on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:45AM (#40453487)
People don’t hate CGI - they hate bad CGI. It’s hard to explain, but you know it when you see it.

Bad practical effects do exist, but even when bad they don’t look “unnatural”.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by jcl on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:58AM (#40454139)
I recall Amazon’s Lord of the Rings title sequence [1] received some criticism for looking fake, even though they filmed it practically [2]. I’d guess it was due to folks assuming title sequences are CGI, combined with the fact that few people really know what poured liquid metal is supposed to look like.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV-dDyYgwkc

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZEpWvQFXqQ

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by bombcar on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:02AM (#40454870)
There's a similar problem with gunshots and explosions - we want what movies have given us which is not what they actually act/sound like - so much so that live recordings of actual gunfire/explosions is often deemed "fake".
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ska on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:59AM (#40455553)
This is also the American/bald eagle problem. When people hear their actual cries, they’re often confused.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by bombcar on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:06PM (#40458633)
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ramses0 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:46PM (#40457691)
Speaking of "Bad CGI", the making of the HBO Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6ZXBrcng
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dahart on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:05AM (#40455631)
That’s a reasonable guess if you don’t follow graphics developments, but the tech for producing realism hasn’t changed that much in the last 10 years, most of the realism developments have been incremental. The main thing that’s happened in CG in the last 10 years is speed and scale improvements. There were great fake-or-real CG photo contests in 2015 and earlier where some of the CG was photoreal enough to trick most people. The Windows wallpaper definitely could have been 100% there 10 years ago, for a skilled CG artist who knew what they wanted. The reasons for doing it practical don’t necessarily hinge on whether it was possible to do it in CG, there are good reasons to do it physically anyway.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ecjhdnc2025 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:50AM (#40454060)
Yes. But why would you do all these computer-ish things to provide a backdrop for a computer? Where is the creativity in that? Where is the attitude, the whimsy, the irony, the juxtaposition?

Considering how much of current technology stems from geeks just proving that their crazy idea could work and looking for money for it afterwards, the disrespect here for another geek's craft and intuitions is wild.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by actionfromafar on Thursday May 23, 2024 @03:18AM (#40451531)
Also pretty sure it was the fun tool for the project.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by noname120 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @05:16AM (#40452403)
Nah that's post hoc rationalization. The amount of busy-work that went into it is ridiculous. Just because a colossal amount of effort was poured in this wallpaper doesn't mean that they used the right tool for the job or that the output was better because of it.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by sph on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:02AM (#40453144)
You're thinking like an engineer, and speak as if there is a right amount of time to spend on artistic endeavours; if you cross this threshold for you it is a "ridiculous and colossal amount of effort".

Budget aside, art isn't constrained or criticized by how much effort the artist put in.

All that matters is the result. A wallpaper or any other artistic creation isn't less beautiful or evocative because the artist spent thousands of hours on it.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by surgicalcolor on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:13AM (#40453217)
No, he's just being realistic.

Even without getting into semantics about "what is art", the reality is that this is promotional material for advertising. This wasn't commissioned by a rich patron to put up on exhibition for MoMA.

This isn't to take away from the artists skill, effort, creativity etc. but the context of this is inherently a business and economic decision. There's no artistic impetus, no political/social/cultural message.

It's a computer wallpaper that monopolistic megacorp funded to show off how wealthy it is. It's a very typical "look at how much money we spent" exercise to showcase success or whatever.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dspillett on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:28AM (#40453345)
> Even without getting into semantics about "what is art"

They say, before making comments about what they think is art :-)

> There's no artistic impetus, no political/social/cultural message.

There is, as you state in your next couple of sentences:

> … monopolistic megacorp funded to show off … typical "look at how much money we spent" exercise to showcase

You can, probably rightly, call it a crappy impetus. But that was impetus for the exercise and could be called the artistic impetus. Even if you disagree strongly on that particular point, but it is definitely a message.

To be slightly more fair, that wallpaper is a major part of the initial impression people have of the OS version, much like XP's Telly Tubby Hill did. The XP image was trying to convey “friendly, welcoming”, the Win10 one tries to convey something more like “dynamic, technically competent, flashy”. While it may not be an expression of someone's inner feelings or a societal property or anything like that, some art is more about directing your impression of something than it is about expressing someone else's and that is what this image was for and what it does.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ecjhdnc2025 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:00AM (#40454155)
> Even without getting into semantics about "what is art", the reality is that this is promotional material for advertising. This wasn't commissioned by a rich patron to put up on exhibition for MoMA.

99.9999% of all art is not commissioned by a rich patron to put up on exhibition for MoMa. It's just something that artists do.

IT geeks are all for imposing their own creative restrictions on their work -- using Haskell when the competition is using PHP, developing their own distributed network persistence layer on top of SQLite when there are products out there that already exist but they just don't like for pseudospiritual reasons.

But artists who just make pictures are expected to be cost-effective and not to put any value on their artisanship?

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by sph on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:03AM (#40455611)
You know, it's art even if it has no ambitions to be exhibited at the MoMA.

> It's a computer wallpaper that monopolistic megacorp funded to show off how wealthy it is.

Groan. It's not possible to have a serious discussions with someone starting from such a cynical position. After all, what is even the point of creating anything? We're all going to turn to dust and be forgotten forevermore.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:07PM (#40461430)
The point is it's poorly done by the standard you'd expect from top level no-expense-spared commercial graphic design. And that reflects poorly on the company and the product.

The Win XP field was the opposite. It was organic, calming, and oddly fascinating because you couldn't tell if it was a plain photo or an edit or... what. And it had an unexpected reference to the Windows branding in the composition.

Win 10 was more like meaningless window-shaped visual noise.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by sph on Friday May 24, 2024 @06:04AM (#40464589)
Again, it does not matter, and it is entirely subjective, if art is poorly done or not. It does not matter if it doesn't calm you. It does not matter if it reflects poorly on Microsoft. Why do you care so much?

Like it or not, art exists in a vacuum. It does not need to justify its existence. That's the very definition of art.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ecjhdnc2025 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:04AM (#40454199)
There's a right amount of time for artistic endeavours and it has all been used up by our niche metaprogramming project.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dev1ycan on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:21PM (#40457381)
"All that matters is the result. A wallpaper or any other artistic creation isn't less beautiful or evocative because the artist spent thousands of hours on it."

Disagree, HEAVILY, a ton of the biggest marvels in the world are so because of how much work was put into them.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:51PM (#40461303)
It's a ridiculous and colossal amount of effort from (I think...) 34 people for something that looks like it was knocked together in a garage.

The proportions and composition are weird, messy, and obviously asymmetric in both axes. Both the horizontals and verticals are slightly off, which makes it feel unsettled.

It seems quite clumsily edited, with a blotchy cut-off at the left that feels claustrophobic and doesn't seem to be there for a good aesthetic reason.

IMO it would have been stronger and more powerful rotated left through 90 degrees so the light was shining down.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ErigmolCt on Thursday May 23, 2024 @04:30PM (#40459542)
I think the process of creation is the thing
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by NayamAmarshe on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:06AM (#40453164)
Here's someone recreating the same wallpaper on Blender in 13 minutes: https://youtu.be/EIfrP365iTQ
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by hu3 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:42AM (#40453462)
Looks good but rather too foggy and not as crisp as the original which is much more detailed. Video artifacts notwithstanding.

blender: https://i.imgur.com/0BjMWi3.jpeg

original: https://i.imgur.com/GGwVibG.jpeg

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by josefresco on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:19AM (#40453803)
IMHO it's not even close.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by DrewADesign on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:28AM (#40455170)
Agreed. As a tech artist, I'm 100% positive I could get a bang-on reproduction using Arnold or some other really solid photorealistic rendering engine, but it would probably take longer than using real cameras, practical props, and doing a bit of massaging in post. The modeling, color, camera angle/focus length/etc. are all really easy. Tweaking the subtleties in the light, glass shaders, fog, etc to get them good would take quite some time. It would only make sense if it needed to be animated or you needed a bunch of versions with modifications. Definitely a 'use the right tool for the job' kind of thing.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by FootballMuse on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:36PM (#40456814)
TBF, the blender version you reference was from an animation, not the first single still render.

blender (frame 0): https://i.imgur.com/XIV8Hma.png

original: https://i.imgur.com/GGwVibG.jpeg

Also, it includes a caveat:

> Unfortunately, due to the nature of volumetric rendering, I was unable to economically render the final animation at a high resolution with enough samples. So I had to resort to denoising, which sadly degraded the image quality and made it a bit flickery.

> Perhaps, with enough computing power, I'll be able to return to this project in the future and provide a cleaner final render.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by hu3 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @01:39PM (#40457615)
And so the remaining 20% of the work will take another 80% of effort.

Classic

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by NayamAmarshe on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:10PM (#40457937)
No, not really. Increasing the volumetric samples + bounces size is fairly simple. It's just a value in the rendering tab.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dessimus on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:18AM (#40453259)
The video is 13 minutes, but its a time lapse so it could have been hours or days of work.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by JKCalhoun on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:33AM (#40453918)
Regardless, the photographers may well encounter those amazing "happy accidents" (something that so rarely happens when I use software).
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dspillett on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:15AM (#40453238)
Not that I'm saying the video doesn't show some skill, but creating a fresh image from scratch is quite a different task from recreating an existing one directly from a reference.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by nar001 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:14AM (#40453230)
Copying is a lot easier than creating though, the Windows team had to start from scratch
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by skrebbel on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:13AM (#40453759)
Your comment made me laugh because out of context, it suggests “the Windows team” is averse to copying things.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by rad_gruchalski on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:13AM (#40453222)
The time lapse is 13 minutes long.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by PKop on Thursday May 23, 2024 @09:14AM (#40454288)
Looks terrible and not all that similar.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by doikor on Thursday May 23, 2024 @12:19PM (#40456613)
It doesn't look as good and Blender/3d modeling software in general have come a long way in the last 9 years or so (Windows 10 came out in 2015)

Sure it could can/could be done but it would take a lot of time to get as good a result. Probably easier to just photograph it for real and photoshop a little bit.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by robertlagrant on Friday May 24, 2024 @05:16AM (#40464398)
That's a cool animated wallpaper.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by linsomniac on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:19AM (#40453275)
>you can let the world do the work for you.

Reminds me of the Spaghetti Sorting algorithm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_sort

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by JKCalhoun on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:31AM (#40453902)
Spaghetti Sorting is just one of the Analog Gadgets called out in Dewdney's "The Armchair Universe" (originally in his Computer Recreations column in "Scientific American"). There are many other cool ones (beginning on page 28):

https://archive.org/details/armchairuniverse0000dewd_x2e7/

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by marhee on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:11AM (#40453741)
Interesting but I am not sure I understand this:

>> contact-and-removal operation takes constant time, the worst-case time complexity of the algorithm is O(n).

How is the contact-and-removal operation constant time? How can that assumption ever be true? If you use a parallel processor like human vision or human feel (ie. which pressure nerve activates on the hand) it may appear constant, but if you use a computer it would be n right (as you would need to check n slots). Wouldn't either defy O(n)?

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by thfuran on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:51AM (#40454079)
You're talking about some other kind of sort.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dahart on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:12AM (#40455002)
The analog algorithm described is not described for digital computer. It’s an amusing theoretical thought experiment and not a recipe for actual fast sorting. It’s O(n) when you use your hand for contact and removal. I don’t know if it’s possible to implement spaghetti sort on a computer, maybe not, but I guess if it were possible, it would probably at least require n processors to sort n elements. Maybe the nearest analogy on digital computers is radix sort.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by Izkata on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:37AM (#40455278)
Radix sort is probably the closest usable one, but a more direct translation would probably be sleep sort.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by dahart on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:56AM (#40456316)
Oh yeah I forgot about sleep sort, that is similar and also more in the same spirit as spaghetti sort. ;)
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by sdwr on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:20PM (#40458042)
You can simplify the "human hand" to a rigid metal sheet that comes down from the top and stops on the highest object. Still constant time, but no "parallel processing" needed.

The point is that reality itself is highly parallel

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by lambdaxyzw on Thursday May 23, 2024 @06:50PM (#40460832)
I wonder if the removal operation is not actually O(sqrt(n)). Depending on the way we structure thought experiment of course. But as the pile of spaghetti gets bigger, the act of picking the largest one is constrained by:

1. how fast your hand can reach for the next spaghetti piece - on average proportional to the radius of the pile of spaghetti, which is proportional to sqrt(n).

2. to actually notice the biggest piece, you need to again wait for a time proportional to sqrt(n) - light propagation is not instant.

So if we start thinking about this algorithm more like a computer scientist would (how fast it is as n grows to the infinity) it doesn't seem to be O(n) IMO.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by posix86 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @04:19PM (#40459412)
Depends on the mathematical framework you're working with.... there's a genre in theoretical compsci that deals with parallel algorithms, and as a toy example, I remember an O(1) sorting algo (given O(n^2) processors). This example is more fun than anything, but ofc in general you're free what constraints you subject your statements to.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by bravetraveler on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:38AM (#40453433)
That's how some 'trick' card decks work, for anyone unfamiliar
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by tshaddox on Thursday May 23, 2024 @02:27PM (#40458110)
Of course, all computation is just setting up some physical stuff in such a way that, after the laws of physics play themselves out for a while, that physical stuff will be in a new state, and you'll be able to interpret your desired result from that new state.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by starstripe on Thursday May 23, 2024 @07:49AM (#40453515)
I would have used VFX for this as I'm pretty sure it would have been more cost effective to achieve a similar result. Most people, like me, probably just assumed this was VFX anyway. But I'm glad Microsoft didn't though, as this is a fascinating story and case study.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by mateus1 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:09AM (#40453722)
Microsoft surely wasn’t too worried about the cost.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by theeandthy on Thursday May 23, 2024 @10:21AM (#40455093)
Honestly it’s way more satisfying to work analog. Experiencing the colors in “real life” spatially. Also, collaborating with others and being able to share the process in a studio rather than on a screen is an amazing experience.

Another thing is the fog rising up to create diffusion on the light. Even the best VFX in the world will only ever be an approximation to the real thing.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by amelius on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:50AM (#40454071)
> with a camera, you can let the world do the work for you

How do you let the "world" remove your greasy fingerprints from the glass?

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by brontosaurusrex on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:51AM (#40454080)
Absolutely, there is no happy accidents in VFX.
Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by snowwrestler on Thursday May 23, 2024 @08:59AM (#40454153)
I think if you handed this image to a VFX artist and said “make this,” they could do it. They probably could have done it back in 2015, too.

But the team making this image didn’t have it in advance. They just had some ideas they wanted to try out.

The story of how it was made is not just the story of the techniques they used, but also how they applied and adjusted those techniques to try things and see how it looked.

This image was “made” in that people built the stuff that was photographed, but it was also kind of “discovered” in that they tried a bunch of things until they discovered what they liked.

That’s possible in VFX too, but the process is different and too many iterations can quickly erase any cost advantage. This is one reason animated movies are disciplined about locking the script early in production. You can’t cost-effectively improv your way through an animated movie the way a director and actors can with a camera and a set.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by ecjhdnc2025 on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:40AM (#40456096)
I agree with all of this -- particularly the exploration and discovery aspects.

But a side note on this:

> You can’t cost-effectively improv your way through an animated movie the way a director and actors can with a camera and a set.

The Jim Henson Company is working on exactly the technology that supports this, actually -- the business of live puppetry capture as distinct from, say, motion capture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzbBdRHqGcQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDIlylZwLJE

This kit is expensive/bespoke but I don't know that it's _that_ expensive, set against how much money goes into making movies with large-scale bluescreen work these days. And it's wholly amenable to improv.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by egypturnash on Thursday May 23, 2024 @04:10PM (#40459321)
They've been experimenting with this since at least 1989. https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Waldo_C._Graphic

People have done simpler realtime rigs with off-the-shelf hardware and software in the past decade: see "The Dog Of Wisdom", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-UmfqFjpl0 which was made with Blender and a Leap Motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a_M9VsZ6Lk

And now we are completely drowning in VTubers, who use software like Live2d that analyzes a webcam image and uses it to control the motions of a pre-made 2D character. I've only ever seen it done to spice up the video of people streaming video games but I'm sure there's someone doing no-budget cartoons with it. There's also Adobe Character Animator, which has been used for various TV stuff like a live performance of Homer Simpson or a few low-budget shows.

And then there's VRChat; a few thousand dollars of head-mounted display/facial capture/body trackers and you can get realtime full-body tracking. There's probably someone fucking around with making movies this way too.

At this point I'm pretty sure that you could get most of the functionality of that hand-tooled puppetry gizmo by just taking a sock and gluing a couple of ping-pong balls onto it and tweaking some tracking software.

Re:Windows 10 wallpaper was physically built and photographed by pavon on Thursday May 23, 2024 @11:16AM (#40455764)
I always assumed it was CG because there are aspects that look unrealistic to me, in particular the bloom along the edges is too bright compared to the illumination of the rest of the panes and the light beams coming from the on the corners looked artificial. Turns out it looks this way because they projected brighter light on the edges and corners. Neat.

When I saw this headline I mixed up windows versions and thought it was going to be about the Windows 11 Bloom backgrounds, which I always assumed were made with physical materials, but it seems like I am wrong about that one too, hah!