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Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by asdfman123 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @01:41PM (#40239065)
Increasingly I think the financialization of everything makes us less capable of understanding the world.

"Red Lobster failed because of X corporate restructuring," "Red Lobster succeeded due to Y ad campaign." People go to restaurants for reasons completely unrelated to things like that. Those things are important, but just constitute the small slice of reality that can easily be measured.

I saw a Twitter thread arguing how the video game Stardew Valley succeeded due to the way it was marketed. Marketing is important, but maybe the game succeeded because it was cute and had a soul and is fun to play. You can't measure that.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by banannaise on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:21PM (#40239687)
The problem is that executives will ask "what makes Stardew Valley successful?" and never make it to this answer:

A developer who genuinely cares about the quality of the game, interacts positively with the community around it, and makes decisions that demonstrate his caring for the game and the community. Specifically, decisions that often leave revenue on the table, particularly in the short term but arguably in the long term as well.

That sort of caring is largely impossible for private equity, and it's really hard to successfully fake.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by pradn on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:36PM (#40240535)
That's because caring and liquidity/fungibility are at opposing poles. People sell cattle but not their pet cows. Something like that.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Terr_ on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:31PM (#40241571)
I think there's an even more-overlooked factor that most people never get to: Good-old random chance in timing and markets and events.

We humans are hardwired to hate that idea, we always want an understandable story with distinct causes and effects... So much so that we will often invent one, even for things we "know" are random, like: "Okay, now the next one will almost certainly be heads, because..."

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wddkcs on Friday May 03, 2024 @10:05AM (#40247800)
It's a failure of our internal simulatory abilities. People are usually much more confident in their counterfactual beliefs than they have any right to be. Self reinforced internal narratives ("if only this had happened then this would have happened") seem necessary in order for us to maintain confidence in our predictive abilities. I wonder if we were truly aware of the surrounding cloud of possible alternative outcomes, if it'd be paralyzing for otherwise mundane activities. How many times do we escape death by the thinnest margins everyday, without ever being the wiser.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wvenable on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:10PM (#40239508)
We live in a time where almost everything is getting worse. Products are getting smaller, service is getting worse, businesses are closing, quality is going down. I don't think I've ever experienced such an obvious decline in commercial society in my entire life.

Is it the financialization of everything? Is that we reached peak growth and profit increases are only possibly through extreme optimization? Is it financial inequality?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by emptysongglass on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:42PM (#40240605)
Oh man I FEEL this deeply.

I was just wondering if it's just me feeling like everything is on a highway to terrible.

- Prices in my city, just this year, have felt like they've jumped 10 or 15 percent.

- I've been working in tech for a decade now and for the first time a new company simply refused to negotiate salary.

- I feel financially worse off than 5 years ago making a third of what I make now.

- Housing prices have exploded. I worry I will never own a home.

- Denmark has started deleting public holidays to save our social welfare state.

- Health care is the worst it's ever been. You can not get basic health diagnostics for most things in Denmark without screaming.

- Europe has a literal war at our doorstep.

- Public transit prices have jumped in the last year.

- Good quality grocery stores have closed and been replaced with discount chains. The quality of the produce is terrible.

- Democracy feels increasingly shittier and hijacked by two extremist poles of very-online meme-thought.

- Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history.

- Everything has become a political lightning rod.

I feel exploited by invisible forces I can't see or touch or name. I feel as if I have no mastery over my own life. I no longer know why I continue to contribute to a society that does not give anything back to me for my labor and exploits the best years of my life for taxes that do not improve my lot in life.

Can someone tell me everything is going to get better?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by onemoresoop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:20PM (#40240952)
>Can someone tell me everything is going to get better?

Yes but only after it will get much worse.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by yoyohello13 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:47PM (#40241186)
Yeah, seems like we are just in the same cycle of boom/bust as every other human civilization in history.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by tanseydavid on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:56PM (#40252849)
4th turning
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by billyvandory on Saturday May 04, 2024 @11:35PM (#40262080)
exactly. we're at turn #4 currently
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by mikrl on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:53PM (#40241254)
> Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries

Have you ever met a millennial?

t. 1992 cusper

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by amanaplanacanal on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:34AM (#40246468)
Boomer checking in. I totally blame my generation. We spent our whole lives sucking the long term value out of everything we could, for our short term gain. Leaving your generations with massive debt and nothing to show for it. You’re welcome.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ryandrake on Friday May 03, 2024 @11:12AM (#40248607)
Yea, I hate generation wars, but it seems to be increasingly true that most of the economic value created in the last, say, 50 years, was currently either 1. captured by a few extremely wealthy individuals, or 2. locked up in the retirement accounts and real estate of people over 60 years old.

I feel like we (the younger generations) are all sitting here holding our breath in this stasis, waiting for that generation to die, and hoping those portfolios somehow get magically spread across the population. I don't know what mechanism is available to do that spread, but if it doesn't happen, where will all that locked up wealth go?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nomadluap on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:12PM (#40252971)
I'm sure a lot of it is already spent in the form of reverse-mortgages on homes.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by mattgreenrocks on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:55PM (#40241266)
> Gen Z is looking like the most garbage generation of the last two centuries with more mental illness than any generation in history.

I'm not at all Gen Z (late Gen X), but you can't put all of that on them. They've had many formative years during a lot of the points you've listed.

> Can someone tell me everything is going to get better?

That's never guaranteed. You can only control what you take in, how you cognitively frame it, and how you react to it.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by graycat on Thursday May 02, 2024 @06:44PM (#40242208)
You are in Denmark? WOW!! From here in the US, my impression of Denmark is a small country of really smart people with gorgeous women having really good lives!!! Your post questions that impression ....

Here in the US, there are what seem to be related issues. Opinions about what is wrong and why differ. It can seem that we don't address the issues or what is wrong, for example, it can appear that the media believes that making clear the issues and faults are too deep for the audience of the media. For example, so far I've yet to see good engineering style graphs of even the basic measures from the economy, health, education, happiness, etc. In simple terms, the birth rate is so low we are going extinct -- some graphs over time might provide some insight. To avoid going extinct should be worth some graphs of related data?

Here is one guess: Some people want more government involvement, activity, services, ..., at the national level. Involved are money and power, money collected from taxes and/or borrowed and then spent and the people spending the money getting power. Then for the money the guess is that the spending is too inefficient, that is, too often wasted. For the power, it can stop what might be solutions. So, with the waste, we are throwing away our efforts, and with the power we are blocked from better approaches.

For this view, the US has some old images, from history, the movies, some parts of education, and even from some of recent history: So, the old images are from, say, the movie The Big Sky from the 1830s of 20 or so men and one Native Indian woman leaving Saint Louis on the Mississippi River (major US river from the north east going south and dumping into the Gulf of Mexico) and the Missouri River (from the northwest of the US close to the Pacific Ocean and flowing ~2000 miles to the Mississippi) to trade with the Blackfoot tribe to give them woven blankets, guns, tools and get beaver pelts.

The whole effort was lawless, that is, no government, laws, police, political power, regulations. So there was fighting, killing. No medical care, so there was suffering. There were lots of injuries from struggles with the river. It was all highly risky with lots of struggles and losses but in the end successful.

There were more such movies about the US, people on their own, risking everything, fighting, struggling, having failures, in the end being successful. There was Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers (had a bicycle shop), etc.

To the present, there were two guys at Stanford University in a project for indexing the contents of libraries. They thought of indexing the Web sites on the Internet and were offered ~$1 million for their work and Web site. They turned down the $1 million, started a company, and had success. It was all risky. It's now worth ~$1 trillion, called Google. Other successes, risky, one or a few founders, include Microsoft, Walmart, FedEx, Facebook, Amazon, Burger King, McDonald's. One guy, sole, solo founder, used some old Dell computers, an early version of Microsoft's Windows and Web software ASP.NET, built a romantic matchmaking service, grew it, ..., and sold out for ~$550 million.

Mostly these successes are examples of significant increases in economic productivity, that is, how much utility get from each hour of work. Personal computers? Killed off the typewriters with just astounding increases in productivity; same for email; Zoom, .... In cars, using digital electronics to get fuel mixture and spark timing a lot better resulted in the engines lasting much longer -- if looked carefully into what was going on with the old carburetors and breaker point ignitions and the huge ways they were wrong (unburned gasoline diluted the engine oil and, thus, wore out the main engine parts) can understand. Tires -- progress in the synthetic rubber chemistry made the tires last much longer, maybe 5 times as long.

The theme is, as in the movie, leave individuals with a minimum of taxes and government power and let them try and take the risks. The victories can generate massive increases in productivity, wealth, and a better life.

Heck, I like music, A. Vivaldi, J. Bach, ..., S. Barber. Used to be, had to go to live performances. Then we got audio tapes, vinyl records, CDs, DVDs, and the Internet. So, now just from a few keystrokes I can get terrific performances of Vivaldi's The Four Seasons, Bach's Chaconne, ... Barber's Adagio for Strings.

Those are some of the ideas that have floated around. Money and power: The idea that just these two are the main causes of all of society's problems is tough to accept. But, for the problems in Denmark, maybe these two should get some attention.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wvenable on Thursday May 02, 2024 @08:58PM (#40242950)
I think the big successes that you describe are the exception rather than the rule. I think you'll find the majority of economic success comes from simple rent seeking -- whether literally as landlord, or as financial service, or otherwise being in middle.

With all the significant increases in economic productivity that has not benefited the average American. We can see historically that as productivity has increased, the wealth of individuals has decreased. We like to think of utopia where increased productivity means we would all get to work less and have more but that isn't how capitalism works. We have made everything significantly more efficient and continue to do so but who is benefiting? For most people things are getting worse because that is actually more efficient.

> leave individuals with a minimum of taxes and government power and let them try and take the risks.

Living in a country with a good social safety net is pretty helpful for risk taking. It's a lot easier to quit your job and start a business when you don't have to worry about losing health care and potentially dying or going bankrupt.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by graycat on Thursday May 02, 2024 @09:57PM (#40243233)
> I think the big successes that you describe are the exception rather than the rule. I think you'll find the majority of economic success comes from simple rent seeking -- whether literally as landlord, or as financial service, or otherwise being in middle.

So, $1 trillion companies versus some guy with $400K a year from 15 well run convenience stores, .... We have a lot of both.

> With all the significant increases in economic productivity that has not benefited the average American.

Maybe not in comparative terms, i.e., maybe the distribution curve for wealth has not changed much.

But in absolute terms, some of what I listed are huge benefits for "the average American":

Nearly no one in the US would want a 1950 Ford, forced to use a typewriter instead of a word processor on a computer, news papers on paper instead of the Internet, no mobile phone or Zoom, 1950s health care, lath and plaster instead of drywall, oak flooring instead of vinyl (cheaper and more durable), microwave ovens, synthetic yarn in cloth and clothing, in general, as in the famous movie, no "plastics", railroads and busses instead of airplanes, no summer air conditioning, no gasoline powered lawn mowers, no calculator aps or pocket calculators instead of adding machines, no computers instead of punched cards, car tires that wear out in 20,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles, elevator operators instead of electrically controlled elevators, etc. ....

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wvenable on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:30PM (#40243409)
If you gave Americans the option of those old things but also a single income could house, feed, a clothe a family of 5 I think it might be closer than you think. It's not fair to describe what we've gained without describing what we've lost.

My parents owned different homes their entire lives. I make significantly more than they ever did and don't and could never afford my own childhood home. My children are even worse off than that.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by graycat on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:39PM (#40243796)
I agree on house prices.

Maybe some news source would publish a graph over time of the ratio of house prices to, say, prices of gasoline, ground beef, carrots, a wool blanket, a car, a refrigerator, etc.

We are very short on news that has credible information, gets to causes, presents like STEM field information, etc.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wvenable on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:46PM (#40243825)
Also the appliances in my child home weren't energy inefficient but they were solid. My current fridge is full of cheap (and broken) plastic. My new stove lasted just past a year before a part that cost 1/5 the price of the entire thing broke. You can get appliances with a touchscreen but you can't get one that will last 20 years anymore.

If it wasn't for government safety regulations that 1950's Ford might actually be safer than what would be produced now without them.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Gormo on Friday May 03, 2024 @04:09PM (#40251830)
I see this all around me here in the US, and feel the same way that you do. Ironically, some Americans see this as a US-centric problem, and look at places like Denmark as an example of a country that still has its shit together, but your own comment seems to confirm that we're in the midst of a global cultural malaise that could probably give the 1970s a run for their money.

We have a total lack of competent leadership across all institutions -- political, commercial and social -- increasing extremism and authoritarianism from every political faction, and cynical short-term thinking from every economic institution. Everything is drowning in mediocrity and pessimism, and society is increasingly dysfunctional in every aspect. Extremists keep proposing authoritarian political solutions, but I see their proposals only as even worse iterations of the problem. What can we do about it, apart from admitting defeat and going off-grid in the mountains?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by chankstein38 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:12PM (#40240887)
I've been thinking about this a lot too. It just feels like all ends of the spectrum, for a consumer, are crashing down. Everything is harvesting and selling data, stock at stores is low and usually favors the generic (and sometimes lesser) option over the higher quality names... Apps like facebook, twitter, IG, tiktok, reddit, and youtube are making life worse for their users. Overall, it is kind of a depressing time to observe.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by mattgreenrocks on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:56PM (#40241277)
It is usually from the wreckage that the next big things emerge.

Just how these things work.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Animats on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:30PM (#40239802)
Sometimes it's monopoly. Not this time, though; Red Lobster was a minor player. Red Lobster was a leveraged buyout. (Most "private equity" is leveraged buyouts. The buyer seldom puts up full cash.) Plus the equity to debt conversion.

Tax law favors debt too much.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:35PM (#40241089)
Most people used to believe in Jesus Christ with values built on the Bible. That was true from lay people to Ivy League colleges to even folks in prison. His blessings with His accountability both made many good things happen and limited lots of damage we’d cause. America was prosperous as the Bible said it would be.

Over the decades, people turned away from God and those values to chase new ones: money first, pleasure first, self/ego first, atheism, subjectivism, Marxism. These by themselves, if increasing enough, guarantee massive amounts of suffering for people. Whereas, the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians only does good for people when you increase it. Society made their choice.

As in Romans 1, God handed us over to our depraved minds and sins to let us feel the full consequences of selfish, godless, subjective societies. Everything has gotten worse. The solution is to repent and turn back to what God gave that worked before. Then, gradually improve ourselves in any weak areas. Wr must bake righteous values back into our families, businesses, and government. Inward change creates positive, outward results.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by matteoraso on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:53PM (#40241771)
>America was prosperous as the Bible said it would be.

The book of Job was written specifically to denounce the idea that morality means that you'll prosper.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:30PM (#40243413)
On an individual level. God promises them national prosperity for obedience in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. There’s curses for disobedience, esp turning away from God, that are very specific. Then, we see those patterns happening in the following books for Israel and the other countries. We’ve seen both happen in the U.S.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by quantified on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:44PM (#40241162)
When and where did that really ever work? Evidence please. The bible says nothing about America. I assume that abolishing slavery was where we turned away from biblical principles.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:56PM (#40241275)
You don’t even really need it. You can go right to the roots.

Let’s compare two sets of things on a basic level.

1. You know God will judge what good or evil you did at the end of your life. You factor that into your decisions.

2. You think we’re an accident, nothing matters, people are just over animals, actually just chemical reactions, universe itself disappears in enough time, nothing matters in the long term unless you say so, and no accountability for any horrible thing you did.

Which is more likely to lead to righteous behavior? Which is more likely to lead to destructive behavior?

Next set are Christ’s basic commandments vs the world’s:

1. Love and obey God first. That means truth, justice, avoiding self-destructive behavior, family, and good work ethic. From there, love others as you would yourself in all your interactions with them.

2. Do whatever you want to whoever you want. It might be limited by whatever is popular at the time which will change. The Devil has most media focusing on individualism over family, squeezing max profit out of everything, and chasing pleasures with reckless abandon.

Which of these logically creates more good? Which leads to more damage?

I think we could stop there. The consequences of just those differences in believes are tremendous. Those in set 2 are currently doing the most damage in all areas of life. They include people who identify as Christian but don’t live like it. Lip service.

Whereas, my first-hand experience with hundreds of people following Christ and Biblical teaching is that it’s working. Their problems often come from sin, not obedience.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by bittercynic on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:34PM (#40241602)
I haven't observed any correlation between belief in God and righteous or destructive behavior. Seems like most theists and most atheists try to live the virtues you've described as best they can.

I'm an atheist, and I do my best to live those virtues because it's just the right thing to do, and because it feels better than the alternatives. I don't think I'm exceptional in not needing a final judgement to make me want to be kind, honest, work for justice, live with integrity, etc.

Much respect to my theist brothers and sisters, and please consider that your atheist brothers and sisters are worthy of respect as well.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by wvenable on Thursday May 02, 2024 @06:16PM (#40241983)
There is nothing less moral to me than the idea of people only doing good because they fear punishment.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Given_47 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:24PM (#40243392)
Yea, Spinoza effectively argues that the Commandments were necessitated by practical utility to control the unruly and uneducated masses and have since become even more bastardized by sectarian religions that wield these appeals to control people and actually prevent them to fully getting to know "God", which he finds entirely possible through reason alone.

And humorously, the latter of each of GP's respective points map pretty well to the destructive effects of what Nietzsche most feared of what he sensed was impending nihilism. Tho the difference, among many, is that "belief in the Christian God has become unbelievable".

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:41PM (#40243471)
We do evil for selfish reasons. God’s Word says the Father draws us to Him, faith itself is a gift He enables, and those who repent receive eternal life and close fellowship with God Himself. Then, His presence in our lives in many ways from changing character to answered prayers. Committing to rebellion in this life gains us nothing in the long term in comparison.

A sovereign ruler who is just necessarily has to enforce the law. That sinning against a perfect, loving, and good being would be punished severely shouldn’t shock you. It would happen in human, legal systems and likely your own house.

The beauty is God’s mercy outweighs His wrath. The wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. He took the punishment for us so we can just turn away from sin and back to God. Then, He never lets us go. You do have to put your God first, though.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Integrape on Friday May 03, 2024 @08:18AM (#40246823)
Sir, this is a Red Lobster comment thread.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Friday May 03, 2024 @04:56PM (#40252299)
The parent that I originally responded to asked a broader question about why we’re seeing declines, esp moral and quality, across many areas of life. They were wondering if this example was one of a general trend happening. I showed it was.

There were also predictions about what would happen if we followed Christ and His model vs other models centered on selfish gain. The other side denied the Biblical truth saying we’d have a better America with godlessness, capitalism, and/or communism. We’ve had time to see where those philosophies would take us. What happened?

God’s Word came true quite literally in many ways while the godless’ predictions were wrong with damaging results. So, the rational choice between multiple worldviews is to think the one that works and has correct predictions is true (or better). And then commit to Christ and repent.

Now, let’s tie that directly into Red Lobster:

1. Christ-like business over worldly greed would have the new owners not sell the real estate the business depended on.

2. Jethro and Paul said to pick leaders of great character and wisdom who aren’t sellouts. They’d have managed it better.

3. Humility in the service sector means constantly listening to customers to adapt to their needs since we put others first. Red Lobster would’ve changed with the times in some way which might have worked out (or not).

4. Proverbs focused on equitable or profitable arrangements. Jesus said to count the cost before you commit to a plan. The Bible often says to seek counsel. These would preclude all you can eat shrimp every day.

In short, Biblical morals would’ve prevented every aspect of this situation. Whereas, godless, unloving capitalism… all those together… naturally leads to things like this. If you will benefit from, but never be held accountable for, destroying the chain… why not make a fortune destroying it?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by chefkd on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:01PM (#40253286)
This made my day :)
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by beardicus on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:12PM (#40243323)
lol. congrats on working a sermon into a post about red lobster but... this is exceedingly poor argumentation if your goal is to actually convince anybody.

it's spot-on if you just want to feel good about yourself though. you start off with a whopper of a false dichotomy and strawman, and don't improve from there.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by quantified on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:37AM (#40244442)
Good morals are basic math: create the world you want to live in. Golden rule and all that.

It turns out that Allah and Vishnu are both quite popular. And none of it supported by actual evidence. We can do better. God's plan is never to reveal that God makes any sense, just random whims. The immoral false prophets get rich and influence millions. So, gotta wait until you die to find out? Maybe. But the Abrahamic bible is so full of misinterpreted BS as to be unusable.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by silverquiet on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:47PM (#40241738)
As an American Millennial, all my life I've seen Christians who talk about love and charity on Sunday, and then work the rest of the week to lower taxes on the rich, shame women, and get as many guns into as many American hands as possible. Ultimately, they found their political apotheosis in Donald Trump, who seems to be the physical manifestation of the deadly sins. If he was created in a lab by Atheists to prove that Christians are hypocrites above all else, they could not have done a better job.

I'd suggest that if they want more Americans to live the values preached by Jesus, they should try starting with themselves. I don't know how many people they have turned into Atheists with this behavior, but I can say for sure they did for me, and I suspect they have alienated many others as well.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Given_47 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:14PM (#40243664)
Somewhat ironical, but I'd be a bit more charitable and simply chalk that up to edge cases; additionally it's no different than typical ideological signaling. I find it less interesting to care about the extent people can bastardize a given idea, also because that's an entirely different, sociological issue.

Tho really any belief system that becomes so institutionalized will inevitably attract flies and become debased over time. However one could cheekily remark that by virtue of its message and who it spoke to, early Christianity was inherently debased, and certaintly ignoble.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:10PM (#40252434)
There are certainly many people who claim to believe in Christ while committing many sins. There’s also tons of atheists and liberals with similar sins. It would certainly help if people acted in line with their values. Also, if they stop causing others harm individually or politically. I’m with you there.

As I look at the Word, we see Jesus Christ promised that anyone who repents and believes in Him would receive eternal life by how good He was, not our own works. It’s a gift of grace. From there, John 15 shows real believers who are in the vine bear the fruit. We’re all steadily changed over time (sanctification) to be more like Him. So, we’ll all have faults.

Even in God’s Word, we see all kinds of sin in the churches. They have fake leaders, people about money, sexual immorality, ego, and James says they starve the poor. Yet, apostles call them “saints” because Jesus bought their future. Instead of discarding them, the apostles keep exhorting them to improve to become who they need to be. Anyone that confessed and made an effort would make it.

Whereas, we can’t let any excuse… ourselves or others… separate us from Christ. Apostasy leads to a worse fate than non-belief if one never returns. John says Christ will never let anyone snatch His real sheep out of His hand. He’ll forgive anyone that returns. I encourage you to return to your first love and find a Biblical church (eg GiveThemLife.com has help).

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by CobaltFire on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:34PM (#40241607)
The number of wars and genocides that have resulted from arguing over whose god is the right one dwarfs all other ills.

Get that fixed and then maybe I’ll listen.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by jazzyjackson on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:43PM (#40241688)
the disagreement over holy matters is not typically the cause of violence, just a convenient uniform to wear to tell ally from enemy
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Given_47 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:47PM (#40243500)
Yea, I dislike that frequent atheist rejoinder cuz it totally misses the point; religion is concomitant and merely used as a pretense. Which I equally dislike, I wish there were more transparency about one's innate will to dominate rather than masquerading behind fictitious ideological claims.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by nickpsecurity on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:36PM (#40243440)
Someone added it up to find atheists and non-religious wars are the majority:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201109005141/http://www.godand...

In another article, America was rated as the most Christian with the most missionaries. Yet, it’s had hardly any wars motivated by religion. They’re usually about the selfish motivations of non-Christian worldviews.

Whereas, Communists have killed tens of millions of people, cultural Marxism is spreading in universities, and that should worry people. You might want to cite liberal beliefs and atheism as top killers in future comments.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by asdfman123 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @09:45PM (#40243175)
Thank you GodGPT
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by antifa on Friday May 03, 2024 @12:11AM (#40243953)
> Over the decades, people turned away from God and those values to chase new ones:

Most people leaving the church today do so because of how hateful and toxic the modern US church has become over the recent decades. If you don't like Christians leaving the church for Marxism, you shouldn't have let Marxism be the only ideology loving thy neighbors while the church was too busy chasing the delusions of white supremacy and Christian Nationalism.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Intralexical on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:37AM (#40245178)
I'm a little bit concerned about Jesus crashing the fishing industry by dumping product onto the market at prices that are too low for anybody else to compete with. It would be especially bad if it triggers some kind of broader trade war. It would be better if there was some way to quantify the risk involved.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by RestlessMind on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:44AM (#40244868)
In case it helps you, I find the following products / services have improved their quality and offering in the past decade:

TVs: I get a much nicer TV now for the same amount what I paid for a crappier one in 2012

Smartphones: very powerful and do a lot of things better (eg. camera, connectivity)

Entertainment: Netflix, HBO, Hulu, Prime, ... you can pick 1-2 of those, binge all you want and then rotate. Costs < 30$/mo

Travel options: Ok, even in 2014, there were very good travel options. But I see a lot more options these days (direct flights from SF, more obscure locations on the travel map etc)

Cars: I bought a new car in 2021 (previous one was 2010). New one is cheaper and has some nicer features (rear view & other cameras, various warning signals)

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by genocidicbunny on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:20AM (#40245721)
Sorry, I don't think that helps at all. If anything, it comes across with a "You should skip the avocado toast" energy.

The vast majority of these things are not all that important to most people, not like prices of groceries, household goods, clothing, energy, childcare costs, transport costs..etc.

I don't care that cars have nicer features now, if buying a new car is most of my annual wages pre-tax. I don't care that I can fly to more interesting destinations from SF when I can't afford to go to urgent care without having to switch to rice and beans for a week. I do on the other hand care when my grocery bills double unless I spent multiple hours a week collecting coupons and driving around to find sales. I care when I have to wake up in the morning shivering because I can't afford to keep the heat at even close to a comfortable temperature.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by RestlessMind on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:15PM (#40300547)
> The vast majority of these things are not all that important to most people

Hmm I don't think you and I share the same definitions of "most people" then, or "important" for that matter. Just to give 2 examples:

>85% of US adult population uses smartphone. The way smartphone revolution has occurred and the big role they play in our lives (entertainment, communication, public services, finances) in just 15-16 years since its invention is truly astonishing.

>90% US households have a car. ~40K Americans die every year in car road accidents. Improving car safety is literally a matter of life and death and numbers prove[1] that we are doing better over time.

[1] https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatalit...

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Intralexical on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:26AM (#40245112)
Corporate consolidation, some would say. IIRC, at some point in the last some decades, the US got the bright idea that antitrust isn't really worth enforcing if potentially anticompetitive business practices and mergers can also result in lower prices.

That kinda works— Until a small handful of corporations gain enough power that there is not really any meaningful competition anymore, and they can effectively engage in price-gouging with monopoly power. Which has now happened, apparently, in most industries. …Hence everything getting worse.

…I think there was an article I read some time back that explained it really well. But I can't seem to find it, so these links will have to do. The Guardian/Youtube ones might seem clickbaity, but that man was also Clinton's Secretary of Labor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antitrust_Paradox

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/compan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZKegjJurk

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/08/biden-assault-monop...

https://pluralistic.net/2021/08/13/post-bork-era/#manne-down

https://www.theverge.com/23645057/taylor-swift-ticketmaster-...

https://news.yale.edu/2024/04/24/lax-antitrust-enforcement-l...

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/675862

Ticketmaster, Facebook, grocery prices, even the Boeing 737 mess— I suppose a lot of these problems do basically come down to a company or an oligopoly getting so powerful that nobody can hold it accountable anymore.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by mensetmanusman on Friday May 03, 2024 @08:30AM (#40246925)
It’s what inverting the age pyramid feels like as the average age of society keeps increasing and risk mitigation becomes the meaning of life, espoused in phrases like ‘stay safe!’

We are slowly in the midst of going through a black plague of sorts when it comes to the % change in population that is occurring, except we will be left with an elderly population instead of a dynamic healthy and young population.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by alfalfasprout on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:11PM (#40239543)
This is the reason I've always been a detractor of purely relying on "data driven decision making". Being data driven is great... if paired with intuition and common sense.

But what ends up often happening is data-driven myopia. You see some statistic that doesn't seem optimal and you end up optimizing for that instead of figuring out how it fits into the big picture.

Restaurants, at the end of the day boil down to food. You serve food. People either like the food or they don't. How many customers you get is a function of how much people like the food, how competitive the pricing on the food is, and the market you're in.

Red lobster at the end of the day suffered from people not wanting to pay what they were charging for low quality, uninspiring seafood dishes.

People nowadays are struggling more (spare me the CPI data, hedonics and other basket adjustments mean the situation for most people is quite a bit worse than it was a few years ago) and there needs to be a value prop for dining out.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Arubis on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:02PM (#40240182)
Data-driven X is a semantic trick to absolve people from owning their X and being accountable for it; decisions just happen to be the most damaging usage. Let data _inform_ you.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by kiba on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:28PM (#40239780)
It's all about information. Some information can be boiled down to statistics and numbers, and that's great!

Some cannot be.

The executives who sits in their office are not going to be able to smell and taste or care about the food.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by giantrobot on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:33PM (#40239835)
> Restaurants, at the end of the day boil down to food. You serve food.

To expand on this a little, restaurants serve food in a building brought to your table by people. If the building/table/environment is dirty or just uncomfortable people don't want to be in it. If the people preparing and serving the food are doing a bad job people won't want them doing it. If a restaurant drops the quality of the food, environment, or personnel they are going to lose business.

As you say it's the value proposition. I go to a restaurant because I want to just pick a food, eat it, and leave. The "hard" parts of cooking and cleaning are someone else's job. All restaurant patrons are willing to pay some premium over the cost of the raw ingredients to save their time and effort. But as the experience gets worse that value proposition starts to erode.

For me and I imagine many people the experience doesn't need to be mind blowing. It just needs to be not shitty.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by hooverd on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:16PM (#40240330)
What I don't understand is the value people place on waitstaff being enthusiastic to serve you. I don't care, as long as you they take my order and check on my drinks.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by _DeadFred_ on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:36PM (#40240531)
That value proposition is typically that the experience be enjoyable. What makes it that varies, hence a variety of restaurants to choose from. If I am inconvenienced and have to chase down wait staff then that nudges the experience to the 'non-enjoyable'. If I run out of something to drink while I am eating, that nudges the experience. If we are sitting and having after dinner drinks/coffee and talking, and are surrounded by dirty plates, that nudges. If we just boated to a restaurant after a day on the water enthusiastic comes to play (we want a happy fun experience). If it's a business dinner, enthusiastic could be a detriment.

Glad to be of assistance my friend.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by devilbunny on Thursday May 02, 2024 @06:07PM (#40241919)
> and are surrounded by dirty plates

AHA! IT'S YOU!

You're the person who has encouraged this bizarre behavior where waitstaff come to pull away my plate the second they think I'm done. No! Leave it unless it's completely empty, I've asked you to take it, or the next course is about to arrive.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Dalewyn on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:37PM (#40240551)
But you clearly care about the staff's enthusiasm to serve you?
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by hooverd on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:26PM (#40250718)
I really don't care if they're smiling and bubbly as long as they do their job.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by anon23908203 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:18PM (#40240936)
I feel uncomfortable when people make me feel like a jerk for consuming their service, and I would rather opt out of the entire dining experience.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by 1propionyl on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:04PM (#40240818)
The catch-22 is that being data-driven means being driven by what data you can measure. And that is an absolutely gobsmackingly fatal flaw.

For a 1000+ page exposition on why this is such a fatal flaw see James C. Scott's 1990s tome "Seeing Like a State" which addresses precisely this issue with receipts brought from fields ranging from agriculture, urban planning, politics, family naming systems, and more across at least 4 or 5 continents and a century.

It's an essential non-partisan read that manages to piss everyone off by being a peon to left anarchism in many ways while saying "actually yes Hayek was right about sensitivity to local conditions" and "actually the NHS and NWS are good and sometimes centralized planning isn't the worst solution".

I've not seen any direct link between them but I feel like you can draw a very firm line between it and Piketty's Capital and Ideology. You might think "wait isn't Piketty the guy who's completely data driven and publishes stupidly large amounts of xlsx files as appendices" and you'd be right except in his second book he's leaning far more heavily on sociology and just using financial data (much imputed from tax records) as support for sociological arguments that align very closely in many respects.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by papashell on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:47PM (#40240651)
I call this metric fetishism
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by cultofmetatron on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:05PM (#40239432)
> because it was cute and had a soul and is fun to play.

I'm a full on stardew addict. I was waiting for a game to rekindle the feeling I had playing the original harvest moon on snes. natsume just made a ton of crap sequals focused on making it all 3d.

concernedape, distilled the snes version down to what made it fun and built it up fron there. it scratched the itch better than any of natsume's sequals ever could.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by jncfhnb on Thursday May 02, 2024 @01:52PM (#40239214)
But a lot of games are cute and fun to play that do not succeed
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by banannaise on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:23PM (#40239707)
Which doesn't mean they aren't necessary conditions. It just means they aren't sufficient conditions. A game needs other things too, one of which may be luck, and others of which may be incompatible with the private equity model.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by tensor on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:03PM (#40239392)
I'm not convinced that is actually true. Can you think of an example? A game that has near universally good reviews but is not successful?
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by georgeecollins on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:16PM (#40239605)
I understand why you think that, because when I started out making video games I thought the same thing. The reason why is that if I had heard of a video game in a review or recommendation it sold really well, but if I tried a game at random it was usually terrible. That is because there are thousands of games and most that aren't that good.

The other thing that happens is you point out a really good game and then someone will say, yeah but that's not a good game because of the art style or it's too similar to something else etc. Everyone can always come up with a quality reason why a game didn't sell. Someone has a reason not to like every game ever made. The problem with that is you can come up with the same complaints for well reviewed games. Often the review will say something like : this has been done before, or that style is a little annoying, but.. it's a great game.

Final nail in the coffin of this theory for me is having talked to many game review editors and having worked with a few, they will often tell you that they don't always expect to shape opinion as much as parrot it back. As one person used to tell me, most people read our reviews to validate their purchase or get our take on what they are playing.

And then to your challenge. Good games that didn't succeed. How about Midnight Suns, Lock's Quest, Space Marine, Company of Heroes II, Maquette.. that's just off the top of my head. If I thought about it I could make a really long list of game you've never hear of. This is probably the same for everything: music, novels, etc.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by yifanl on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:56PM (#40240739)
Arguably the best game of 2023, Alan Wake 2: https://wccftech.com/alan-wake-ii-recoup-expenses-tencent
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by jncfhnb on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:42PM (#40241153)
Hard to argue that game was not successful. It was merely expensive to produce.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by AlotOfReading on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:24PM (#40240419)
I can give you an entire studio: https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/

They make extremely niche RPGs that routinely rate >90% in positive reviews on Steam and they've never had an actual hit. Pretty much the definition of cult classics.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by Der_Einzige on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:48PM (#40240000)
That's easy dude.

System Shock 2

Psychonauts

Shenmue

Okami

Conkers bad fur day

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by weard_beard on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:46PM (#40241179)
I don't think you're thinking of this in the right way. Crafting media and creative products of all kinds is like playing poker. You can go all in or you can make little bets where you think you can win.

You're making the assumption that the way to win is to GO ALL IN.

When in reality whether you're making AAA games or a small indie digital artist like Darius Kazemi... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_F9jxsfGCw (Went to high school with him. Amazing guy. His senior project in the electronics lab was a teddy bear that could detect seizures.)

You are just buying lottery tickets.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by underlipton on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:06PM (#40239466)
Bit of a rant:

Luck. Word of mouth. Anyway, things you can't control (and can barely influence) as a developer/publisher. So, we face the notion that, perhaps, if we want people to take the risk of creating and sustaining a business for reasons other than simple profit (say, to provide a needed or pleasant service), the proposition might need to be better than, "Succeed or die (sometimes literally)." Because none of it's a sure thing, and it can't be, but sane people generally aren't going to bet their life or livelihood on a risky venture (assuming that irrational passion is a form of insanity).

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by chiefalchemist on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:00PM (#40239330)
Sometimes it's just timing and/or luck. Think of some TV show that was big say 10 years ago, would it do the same today? Maybe. Maybe not.

Product + Marketing + Timing + Luck = Maybe Successful

The thing is, there's no VP of Timing. There's also no VP of Luck. These factors are ignored because there's no one to champion them. Yet they are very real.

Unsuccessful Product !== Bad Product or Bad Marketing

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by yoyohello13 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:13PM (#40241427)
I think Stardew filled a niche that wasn't being catered to. There were no Farm Sims that weren't a cash grab released since Farmville. Stardew caught all the people who remembered Harvest Moon fondly.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by jncfhnb on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:41PM (#40241667)
Harvest moon was actively releasing games at that time
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by yoyohello13 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @06:08PM (#40241927)
Yeah, but they were shit.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:39PM (#40240571)
I think this is naive. When (for example) a private equity fund buys a casual dining chain, they will go through how the business is run in painstaking detail and try to understand exactly what makes the experience 'work' and what changes are possible or advisable.

If the olives in the salad don't taste as good or there are fewer breadsticks or the lighting makes it feel more relaxed or the greeters have more time or the menu gets shorter or the desserts arrive quicker or the pasta is less salty, that's because someone involved in that decision decided it was worth paying more for or not worth paying what they were currently paying, taking into account what factors will make people change their mind about eating there. There isn't just a random dude who sits in a room somewhere and says "let's make the food worse" based on his own whim.

If the food gets worse and it just doesn't have that same vibe anymore and you don't want to go there next time, it's because an expert in marketing or restaurant management or food design made an error in their judgement about what they could cut, what they should improve, and what they needed to keep the same. That, or the change which turned you off attracted more customers or more desirable customers who have different preferences to you.

Your restaurant changed because its corporate policy changed. But the capital structure is totally relevant in understanding why that changed.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by stainforth on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:41PM (#40241138)
Do you think private equity funds could have other end goals when buying a company?
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:53PM (#40241243)
Other end goals than what?

Other end goals than making people happy by serving good quality shrimps for a reasonable price? Obviously they do.

Other end goals than making money? Of course they don't. But neither did Ray Kroc, who was extremely upfront about how McDonald's is a business whose strategy is to acquire real estate, funded by burger sales. Neither do the Waltons, who aggressively cut margins on all their products and compete to drive other retailers out of business. (Neither does General Mills, who used to own Red Lobster, nor Darden Restaurants, the public spin-off that owned Olive Garden and Red Lobster, nor Starboard Value, the activist investor that pushed for Red Lobster to be sold.) None of these companies exists because of a high-minded commitment to customer service, or fair play, or delicious food.

If turning a viable restaurant chain into a chain that no one wants to go to and then selling it is an attractive business proposition for private equity, than it should be for McDonald's and Walmart too. Unless you can point to some specific causal connection between the ownership structure and the decision about whether or not a restaurant should serve stuff that people actually want to eat?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday May 02, 2024 @05:16PM (#40241453)
The example of McDonald's acquiring value through real estate, funded by the business, is pretty poingnant, considering the PE firm here did the exact opposite: sold all the valuable real estate and rented it back from the buyer under crippling rent payments, funded by the business.

Why did the PE firm do that when McDonald's didn't?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by devilbunny on Thursday May 02, 2024 @09:38PM (#40243147)
Because the PE firm had partners who bought the underlying real estate for themselves.

I'm sure that there are PE firms that really do try to make businesses successful and profitable, but the vast majority are in it to sell off anything of value and dump all the ensuing debt into a company that will shortly go bankrupt.

If you own a company, and a PE firm buys one of your clients, that should be a hint to require prepayment for everything they ask for after that. They will leave you holding the bag as a creditor.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:48AM (#40245240)
Your first point: this would obviously be serious fraud. I'm not sure if you have any evidence of this in this particular case or is you are alleging this is standard practice by PE funds?

Your second point: why would someone lend money to a company which was going to go bankrupt? If PE firms always made the companies they controlled bankrupt, no one would lend to them.

Your third point: if someone buys a company from you, how does it make you a creditor of the bought company?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by devilbunny on Friday May 03, 2024 @10:35PM (#40254372)
It’s not fraud if the sales are advertised and fair… even if they’re not widely publicized. But that was just spitballing.

For 2), people loan to the PE firm because they extract all the value for themselves. Their creditors get paid. People who loan to PE-controlled firms don’t seem terribly wise to me, but maybe they can model them like junk bonds.

For 3), if the firm buys one of your clients, be cautious.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday May 02, 2024 @03:49PM (#40240667)
> There isn't just a random dude who sits in a room somewhere and says "let's make the food worse" based on his own whim.

Not directly, but only 1 step removed. The dude is saying "let's charge the same or more for cheaper, lower-quality food, to make a higher margin so our PE firm makes more money".

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by quantified on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:01PM (#40240781)
> that's because someone involved in that decision decided it was worth paying more for or not worth paying what they were currently paying, taking into account what factors will make people change their mind about eating there.

Evidently not really taking the factors into account. Would the limited partners eat there? More than once?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:11PM (#40240876)
I don't see the relevance of this. No one eats at Red Lobster thinking "this is the exact dinner experience that billionaires would design for themselves".

Walmart is a family owned business. Do you think that the Walton family buy groceries and home furnishings there? McDonald's is a public company. Do you think that its CEO and the fund managers who hold the biggest stakes in it regularly eat there?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ChickeNES on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:01AM (#40244963)
> McDonald's is a public company. Do you think that its CEO and the fund managers who hold the biggest stakes in it regularly eat there?

Yes: https://financialpost.com/executive/mcdonalds-new-ceo-eats-a...

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:01PM (#40240790)
What makes you think that PE equity owners have any different incentives to any other chain restaurant owners to cut costs and improve margins??

Why would you think that private equity owners would ever make things worse to improve margins without giving careful consideration to whether or not the changes will make people less likely to spend money at their restaurants??

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:05PM (#40240823)
Because PE equity owners DO have different incentives. It's reasonable to think things that are true.

PE is incentivised to squeeze the business and extract the value built up over time, to get large, quick returns, even if it destroys the business (they can sell the corpse after). A restaurant which delivers regular, single-digit restaurant margins indefinitely would be considered a PE investment failure.

So, the answer your 2nd question is also "because it's true". I'm happy to be convinced otherwise on either count, if you think differently.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:13PM (#40240896)
You've just repeated and rephrased the claim that I challenged without providing any evidence or argument at all. Your actual answer to both questions is "because I believe this".

Can you explain how the math works that PE owners make money from discouraging people from going to a restaurant, and other owners don't have the same incentives?

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by outop on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:40PM (#40241128)
You've replied with the same trivial urban myths that are endlessly repeated about private equity.

You've compared the incentives of private equity and a small business owner. Do you think that Red Lobster was previously a small business?

Why can't you answer the question on the different incentives that apply to different owners of large businesses? If a private equity fund can make a profit by buying a successful business, discouraging all its customers and then "selling the corpse", why can't other owners do the same thing?

Why does the company having a large amount of debt change the decision a restaurant chain's management makes between selling cheap and good food, or cheap and bad food, or expensive and bad food, or expensive and good food?

Literally everything that you've said about this has been handwaving and rumours. Explain the decisions based on where the money comes from and where it has to go to, if you can (you clearly can't).

You citing Nabisco as the best example of what you believe is comical since it's from 40 years ago (and famously fraudulent).

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ImPostingOnHN on Friday May 03, 2024 @04:21PM (#40251956)
I worry, friend, that in your haste to reply, you may have accidentally replied to yourself here.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:17PM (#40240923)
I explained the difference in incentives: Restaurant margins are a PE failure [0], that alone would explain it. Your framing of the scenario as "discouraging people from going to a restaurant" is... less than charitable. A better description would be "extracting the value of customer goodwill from the business and moving it into their pockets". They're PE, they prioritize big, fast returns over long-term customer value and small, slow returns.

Add to that, the leveraged buyout mechanism that Red Lobster went through is famous for siphoning value off the target in the form of fees and other schemes, and then leaving the empty husk to die under crippling debt[1]. A clue here is that the 2nd paragraph of the article we're discussing is, "In mid-April, Bloomberg reported the debt-laden seafood chain...", and it sounded like they had trouble paying it in part because of the rent payments that started when the PE firm sold their real estate to pay for the buyout.

Can you explain why you think anything I've said so far is untrue? After all, we can't assume a PE LBO executor and a small business owner have the same incentives unless we have sufficiently convincing evidence to support that assumption.

0: https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/restaurant-profit-margins...

1: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/09/corporate-kl...

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by throwway120385 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @01:53PM (#40239221)
This is what people mean when they use the term soulless capitalism. The increasing financialization of everyone leads us to optimize for the things we can measure assuming those are the things that matter, and in the end the optimizations erase everything good.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by chiefalchemist on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:01PM (#40239367)
It's not the optimization per se, it's taking it too far, over-playing it to the point of removing the magic, the special sauce, etc.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by RunSet on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:26PM (#40239747)
> The founder of Costco told a CEO who wanted to raise the prices on Costco's hot dogs: "If you raise the effing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/costco-founder-kill-hotdog...

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by prepend on Thursday May 02, 2024 @02:58PM (#40240132)
I’m still waiting for a story 20 years from now when they finally raise the hotdog price and the old CEO is 90 and kills the CEO who raised the price.

Or maybe it’s not the CEO he threatened, but a new one.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by selimthegrim on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:49PM (#40241207)
This sounds like a pitch for a Timecop sequel.
Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by mattgreenrocks on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:51PM (#40241231)
> I saw a Twitter thread arguing how the video game Stardew Valley succeeded due to the way it was marketed. Marketing is important, but maybe the game succeeded because it was cute and had a soul and is fun to play. You can't measure that.

Thought leaders seem to know everything except when to keep their mouth shut for once. But I digress...

If firms are being punished for poor quality, then the system is working, even with enshittification becoming more commonplace. All of the Very Important Business People can sit around and scratch their heads about why the market seems to change on them when they screw up their offering, and they can consult overpriced business fortune tellers to reassure them that it was that pesky market's fault, but that doesn't change the outcome.

I'll miss Red Lobster's cheesy biscuits, but if they've dropped the ball on quality they had this coming to them.

Re:The Fishy Death of Red Lobster by pokerface_86 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:16PM (#40243680)
what about all the other cute fun to play soulful games that DONT succeed?