News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by herpdyderp on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @01:19PM (#39682155)
The most humorous part to me is when it says it's currently raining or snowing and it's clear and sunny. How can a system be so wrong that it can't tell the current state of the weather?
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by counters on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @02:30PM (#39683090)
Do you want a snarky answer or a serious answer?

The serious answer is that the way you'd try to figure this out is by combining weather radar, satellite imagery, and a nearby surface observation to try to estimate the current conditions. But there can be a latency of up to a few minutes from these sources, and they could disagree with one another. You have to use them to bootstrap your near-term or nowcast product, but enforcing consistency with recent real-time and the nowcast is quite hard.

It's a surprisingly nuanced technical challenge. Most of the time, it works out just fine (e.g. if there is no weather). But people are awfully good at remembering when these sorts of analyses end up being wrong!

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by jrockway on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @02:38PM (#39683183)
Yeah. Like you would think you could just look at reflectivity data to determine whether or not it's currently raining, but at most places you are far from a radar site and even the 0.5 degree tilt is scanning a mile above your head. There might be rain there, but is it reaching the ground? All you can really do is guess.

If you're interested in providing on-the-ground condition reports, install mPING: https://mping.nssl.noaa.gov/

I keep this app on my homescreen and try to report when very light rain starts, since it's not always obvious from the reflectivity data. Ultimately the user reports get fed into things like improving the model, and more data is always good.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by avar on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @05:48PM (#39685386)
Apple devices are constantly phoning home every time they see a random AirTag out in the world.

You'd think that if their users are accepting that level of communications with the mothership that they could ship some AI model to hear rainfall in the wild, and thus improve their live weather data.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by counters on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @06:48PM (#39685854)
Surprisingly low signal-to-noise ratio for most of the common, creative ways people come up with to detect rain. Windshield wipers on cars are another example.

The thing is, even if you did have a super reliable in situ "rain detector", how do you combine it with the existing datasets like weather radar, which is a gridded product? This is actually a really, really difficult sensor fusion problem when you then super-impose product requirements like the general location real-time detection map and the inputs necessary for whatever internal nowcasting system they use.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by TylerE on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @11:19PM (#39687765)
If you care that much buy a $100 weather station and sit it outside your window?

Actual ground observation weather stations are fairly rare outside of places like airports and major news stations.

“Is it raining here right now?” Is a harder question than you’re giving it credit for. Radar can show rainfall at as low as a couple thousand feet altitude, but if conditions are right/wrong (depending on how you look at it) it never reaches the ground.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by stavros on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:15AM (#39689439)
What's wrong with devices phoning home if they don't actually send any usable data there?
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by inemesitaffia on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:58AM (#39689665)
I believe they send barometer information home
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by brookst on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @07:41AM (#39690280)
The AirTag comparison is interesting. AirTag tracking is clever and results in Apple not knowing the location or identity of either the AirTag or the phone reporting it. This relies on rotating keys that can be seen as random, or at least not identifiable.

But rain or other objective information? I suppose it works, maybe a bit like “limit IP address tracking” — cloudflare or other edge provider could mediate so Apple gets the data, knows it comes from an iPhone (to prevent bad data attacks), but Apple can’t tell what phone sent which data.

(the privacy concern being documentation of when you were inside/outside/etc).

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by bee_rider on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @05:53PM (#39685421)
It would be kind of interesting if the app had a “you are wrong” button, which allows you to take a picture of the outdoors. Apple could either use this to improve their models, or even just use it as input data directly if they get enough complaints. Plus, it would allow people to vent, or it could check if there is something wrong with the phone, maybe location is being mis-read or something like that.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by counters on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @06:49PM (#39685868)
There isn't a vector where after-action reports like this could "improve the model." That data is useful for verification, but these systems generally have no learning component to feed the data back into them to improve them.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by bee_rider on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @08:42PM (#39686705)
They have the input from all the different sensors and forecasts. Why not, for a given location, keep track of which one gave the best results? Sure, they don’t have a way of keeping track of they now, but it seems like it could be added.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by counters on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @10:24PM (#39687458)
This is already SOP at most reputable weather data providers; they consume many different numerical forecasts and use statistical post-processing to choose an optimal blend of the available forecasts based on how different forecasts have verified against observations.

But this sort of technique only works for medium range forecasts. Short-range precipitation nowcasts are almost always a single, deterministic run of a model that extrapolates from patterns in recent radar imagery. They aren't bias corrected at all, so you can't use observations in the same way to improve them.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by tspike on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @06:34PM (#39685752)
It does have that: “report an issue.”
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Fomite on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @07:07PM (#39686008)
Yeah - nowcasting turns out to be remarkably difficult at times, especially at very small spatial resolutions.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by krisoft on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @11:41PM (#39687881)
> if there is no weather

And the ship has been towed beyond the environment.

There is nothing out there, all there is is sea, and birds, and fish. And 20,000 tons of crude oil. And a fire.

Less sarcasticaly speaking I think there is always weather. Maybe what you mean is “no significant change in the weather” neither in time, nor in space.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by stavros on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:16AM (#39689442)
Wait, what's the snarky answer?!
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Etheryte on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @02:26PM (#39683034)
I can't even begin to count how many times I've had this conversation with Siri.

"Hey Siri, is it going to rain?"

"It doesn't look like it's going to rain today."

"It's raining right now."

"It isn't raining right now."

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by throw0101d on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @03:29PM (#39683829)
> I can't even begin to count how many times I've had this conversation with Siri.

I live in Toronto, Canada, which stretches about 40km east-west, and 20km north-south:

If the west-end (Sherway) gets hit with rain, but the east-end is dry, did it rain "in" Toronto when folks in Scarborough didn't experience it? Was the forecast wrong?

If it snows in North York but is dry at Billy Bishop, was the precipitation forecast "wrong" for one particular group of people?

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Etheryte on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @05:31PM (#39685221)
Apple Weather uses your precise location if you allow it to, meaning it knows your location down to a meter, network and positioning issues etc notwithstanding. It doesn't have to guess your weather based on "Toronto", it knows your GPS coordinates. There is no technical limitation here, as I outlined in a separate comment thread [0], other apps already give you weather data and predictions with this granularity.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39683660

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by sznio on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:58AM (#39689667)
>It doesn't have to guess your weather based on "Toronto", it knows your GPS coordinates.

Meanwhile the Google Weather app constantly insists I live in Frankfurt while I'm in Warsaw.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by StefanBatory on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @06:34AM (#39689889)
Fur Deutschland...

On a serious note I'm dealing with this as well - I live in a middle-sized city in the centre of the country, not in Kraków!

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by throw0101d on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @08:34AM (#39690619)
> There is no technical limitation here, as I outlined in a separate

The technical limitation would be on the weather data size: what is the granularity/resolution of the radar data on where rain is actually falling?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_weather_radar_network

Further: what is the geography of the area, and how does that effect things as well? Toronto specifically has (a) all sort of heat island effects, (b) certain areas are effected by the lake and how weather systems cross it at certain angles, and (c) has enough of an elevation change going north of the lake (e.g., Niagara Escarpment) that there are a few ˚C change in temperature that makes the differences between snow and rain.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by viraptor on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @08:22AM (#39690533)
This exists on a smaller scale too. I'm in a town perfectly covered by a small hill range from the direction the wind is coming 99% of the time. This means almost every forecast for rain is valid 3km south and north of me, but not in the town itself.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by lotsofpulp on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @03:09PM (#39683546)
Why would you expect Siri to know if it is raining at your specific location? Surely there exists an edge where on one side it is raining and on the other it is not raining.

So unless you are sitting next to the the weather station that Siri is getting data from, I would not expect it to know 100% of the time.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Etheryte on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @03:17PM (#39683660)
I live in the Netherlands. The local weather apps tell me when it's going to rain with nearly minute precision, along with cloud maps with scrollable time, graphs of how heavy the rain will be at what time, etc. It's pure nonsense to claim this is a technical limitation when other apps do it with ease. No one is expecting it to be right 100% of the time, but Apple Weather is wrong about rain most of the time, even on a crude scale of say, a city.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by ceejayoz on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @04:31PM (#39684550)
> Why would you expect Siri to know if it is raining at your specific location?

I don't, but as a result, I expect it not to guess.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Filligree on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @10:00AM (#39691297)
But you’re asking it to guess, and it’s usually right. Surely that’s better than having it refuse to offer a suggestion.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by ako on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @01:37PM (#39682399)
Forecast are usually for a larger area, 5x5 kilometers, or 10x10 kilometers. Even within this area, weather will not be the same everywhere, so they'll give a probability for the entire area.

Windy.com lets you compare different models for a specific location, it also includes the size of the area per model: https://www.windy.com/?49.339,5.054,5

GFS is area is 22km, ECMWF 9km, ICON-D2 2.2Km, Arome 1.3Km, and UKV is 2Km. Even in a 1.3x1.3Km area it may not rain everywhere at the same time.

And then there's also the time element, so it's 1.3Kmx1.3Kmx1Hrs (or 3Hrs). So lot's of variation possible.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by amarcheschi on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @02:07PM (#39682776)
Yup, a few days ago I made a python script to help me choose whether to get to uni by bike or by moped when it rains (given two coordinates I calculate the angle(bearing?) and checks whether it rains, and the angle from which the wind blows to see if I'll get all wet in the face) and I had a bit of a hard time figuring out why two different providers, windy and openweathermap, gave me 2 different wind results. Eventually, I found out they were using a different model, it took a bit of time tho, because windy only has increments of hours, while the other one was more granular
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by bumby on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @01:24PM (#39682231)
From the article:

>”These observations are then fed into numerical prediction models to forecast the weather.”

In other words, the forecasts come from models, not necessarily real-time station readings. Those readings are inputs into the model, and the models may not get updated fast enough to reflect current conditions.

Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by Fomite on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @07:09PM (#39686014)
Or it might be raining at the station the reading is being made at, but not where you are. Living in the west for example, a lot of weather stations are remarkably broad in the area they're expected to represent.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by bumby on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @08:05PM (#39686429)
The point is that the forecasts are often not built from real-time weather station data, but models using various initial conditions.
Re:Weather forecasts have become much more accurate by NikkiA on Tuesday March 12, 2024 @06:59PM (#39685955)
Because the 'current' weather isn't, it'll be whatever the last update of your chosen weather station reported. Often people choose a generic station that can be quite far from where they actually are - my default if I allow weather sites to 'guess' tends to be the airport 14 km away and 200m higher than me. A lot of weather can pass me by and still not have gotten to the airport in the 40 minutes since the last update.