A lot of the installers run small businesses. If one of these units goes wrong or if they do the install wrong because it's new to them, then that's lost time and lost revenue rectifying it.
Overall it was a great experience, there were some minor issues immediately after installation that got dealt with quickly and efficiently. I think the list price was similar to what you were quoted, but in northern california (menlo park, peninsula clean energy) there were around $5000 of grants/tax incentives, and an interest free loan from pce for the rest, over 5 years meaning our monthly repayment should be about equal to the reduction in our gas bill.
We already had solar and batteries, otherwise I would NOT want to put myself at the mercy of PGE and their crazy electricity rates. But as they reduce the payment rates for solar electricity, the heat pump becomes a better deal.
So great to have you as a customer! We're stoked we were able to help you ditch natural gas and decrease your carbon footprint.
Menlo park (and much of the peninsula) are such a no brainer for heat pumps. Like you mentioned, ~$5500 in incentives plus interest free financing can net to almost no out-of-pocket costs for most homeowners in San Mateo County. Many contractors aren't as familiar with heat pumps, and their quotes are often so expensive that it doesn't make economic sense to fuel switch. We are focused on offering affordable heat pump installations that have a positive ROI for homeowners.
From your site: "In the SF Bay area common incentives are the Federal 25C Tax Credit, Tech Clean CA and Peninsula Clean Energy."
I'm assuming Federal 25C and Tech Clean CA apply but Peninsula does not. But I don't know how much these are without further research. It would be nice if you had a tool on your site to determine my net cost with incentives included.
We call a specific incentive API, automatically generate the net cost estimate, and send it to you. No issue for our software, pls add a note that you just want incentive info, and I'll know to remove you from our hounding salespeople (ME )
We're working on our live instant quote tool, but it's not ready yet.
... we love Alameda and have done a few projects there now.
I'd like to replace my 25+ yr old system (gas furnace/AC) with a new gas furnace & heat pump so I can have the option of heating with gas or electricity... but when I ran this by an HVAC technician who was here for a service call, I got the same kind of exorbitant figures thrown at me with the heat pump in the equation.
Same technician wanted $750 to replace a control board when my furnace had gone out during a blizzard - I sourced my own & did it myself for <$150.
OTOH, if you're replacing a gas furnace and already have A/C, then installing a new gas furnace + heat pump shouldn't cost much more than a new gas furnace + new A/C.
They likely exist, but none of my local residential HVAC companies carried them.
Electric resistive heating is not a suitable backup. If adopted at scale, it would tend to amplify demand spikes when the grid is at its most vulnerable.
They will pair to low ambient temperature capable condensers.
Daikin FXTQ series models
Mitsubishi SVZ series models
If you are searching.
I don't think having backup heat is a terrible idea, but it could be any fuel source. The fan should still function with minimal power to circulate air as long as there's some heat to move around.
People always forget the hot water. A GSHP usually has a de-superheater that can provide some heat during the shoulder seasons, but you can't rely on it and need the backup heat (as you do for the AUX heat for both when it's super-cold out and for the defrost cycle).
Since most maintenance staff don’t do the special procedures properly (and barely manage to deal with normal toilets properly!) they were a big headache. [https://www.waterless.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selectin...].
Everywhere I know of that was using them eventually got rid of them because they weren’t worth it for the small water savings they actually got.
Especially since water usage was never anything but a hot button PR topic - there are probably only a handful of places humans habitate that the difference is actually non-negligible when you factor in showers, landscaping, etc.
https://www.12ft.io/https://www.wired.com/2010/06/ff-waterle...
The links you're pointing to are to articles when the idea was 'hot'. And when all the press was going on around saving water in California (notably dead now, as is the norm).
If you didn't notice the issues, then congrats! someone in the maintenance team was doing the work so you didn't have to see what was happening.
I'm not a plumber, but I do own property and have installed (permitted/inspected) several toilets and had to do my own maintenance. Flushless was never worth the squeeze for me, but then I never had to deal with PR issues or fads. I was my own customer, and got to pick what worked for me and those around me.
It costs about 2kUSD to get air to air exchange heatpump installed here (minisplit, includes the cost of the pump, EU). Takes approx 3 hours.
I saved ~ 10k doing the install myself. The equipment is inexpensive, labor can be upwards of 2x equipment cost.
My experience was that it was simpler and quicker to pay someone despite having basically the simplest possible installation: inside and outside units on opposite sides of the same exterior wall. The guy was great, and recommended a unit with an easily removable blower wheel for the dusty wood shop application[1]. I wouldn't have gotten there on my own, for sure. And he made sure that it qualified for the incentives. The list is long, and the models that are actually in production/available change pretty regularly.
Technically, it can be a pretty simple job. Practically, local regulations and circumstances might sway things towards hiring it out.
I say all this as someone who is a fairly competent shade-tree mechanic. I've done an engine swap and replaced a couple of clutches (transmission seal failure and previous owner's poor work; I know how to drive stick)
[0] I'm playing fast and loose with the exact words; it's been a few months since I looked into it.
[1] Cooper-Hunter, which is a Midea brand
You can buy a Mr Cool unit, you won't need to cut/flare/vacuum the lineset, just connect. I don't personally don't use them as their units generally cost a bit more, (30$ ~ 50%) and you're stuck with whatever lineset lengths they offer. However it's a great starter install and work just fine.
Cooper-Hunter units come precharged, so fairly easy to DIY.
That said, some will inevitably leak out (ie. while disconnecting manifold gauge set) but no big deal. I've done four installs and nothing catastrophic.
My father had similar issues with his new boiler although in his case after constant failed repair attempts his local place finally hired some guy who knew what he was doing.
There's also rebates on heatpumps around here but local forums seem to suggest that the installers are super backed up and quote "go away" prices. You can't get the rebate unless you go with a state approved installer, so even if you can install it yourself you're out of luck. Seems like they've just raised their prices to compensate for the rebate since they already had to much work.
Not sure the trouble is over. You are only good until you need servicing, and then you need to shop around again. Servicing is even worse, because it is an acute problem and you are under so much time pressure to solve the issue.
Sometimes even the company that sold the unit does not honor their warranty. They shut down. They re-incorporate under a new company, etc.
The HVAC contractors here are pretty small, maybe they do not want to take the risk.
As someone else said, if I had more time, I would have purchased a few DIY split systems... I might do that for AC only, as I did not replace the AC at that time.
Or they're so busy they can pick and choose their jobs. I had a quote to replace a 12 foot section of pipe come in at $700, not even two hours worth of work.
For a similar reason, heat pump water heaters tend to have a larger storage tank, as they take longer to heat the water and you want more of a usage buffer.
Why do you even respond if you don't know enough about heat pumps?
But do go on about how I don't know enough.
Modern heat pumps do fine well below 0 degrees Celsius. Here's one that's great to -15 C and okay down to -25 C[0]. If you search cold-climate heat pumps, you'll find plenty of information about how modern heat pumps are fine in most the temperatures you'll find in most of the US (including up north).
(I have heard that a lot of them are still only available in Europe, but you can definitely find some in the US.)
"Below 0° Fahrenheit, heat pumps can still heat your home with more than twice the efficiency of gas heating or standard electric heating (such as electric furnaces and baseboard heaters). They’ve been tested and approved as far north as the Arctic Circle, and are popular options in very cold countries like Finland and Norway."
Finland has over 60% heat pumps.
And heat pumps, just to be clear, work by generating a temp difference. The main problem is the efficiency and that drops also because there is a heating cycle needed for the air intake.
How many models did you actually research yourself?
So his point still stands.
That's basically explaining that you did zero basic research.
And I'm not a kid fyi.
Learn to Google and learn to do research
My whole new housing estate have heat pumps.
And I told you before already about Finland. And if you don't know what Finland is: it's a cold country in Europe.
It also appears that the tech for the more typical air source heat pumps has improved significantly in recent years which makes it more viable for colder climates
If above ground ranges from 0-100 degrees F, underground likely ranges from like 64-68 degrees F, which makes it really energetically "cheap" to get to your preferred temperature range, heating to idk 70 at most and cooling to probably not even 65.
But otherwise, yeah, almost identical and a little crazy they'd cost much more over a typical install.
The hard part is that you have to recover the refrigerant and refill, which takes HVAC/R equipment and and EPA certification to do legally.
Other things like the blower and condenser may need to be swapped out. It also depends on how old your system is. The controller will probably most certainly need to be swapped out. Do the normal thing with contractors like that. Call 3 different dudes have them come out and give you an estimate. Tell them you want quotes for partial swap out, full swap out, and 3 different price points. Within a couple of weeks you will have most of the knowledge you need if you want to do it.
My parents when they switched out they replaced both the indoor unit and outdoor too because they were 30+ years old at that point.
Now you probably have NG? If so you can also leave that fairly in place as is. I did that with my prev house. Then have the heat pump for when it is warm outside. Then switch over to NG when it gets to a particular temp. I set it to switch over at about 30F. I could have gone as low as 15 with that unit. It worked decently for most of the time. Where I live it maybe gets in the 20s for about a week a year at most. So the heat pump worked decently.
One thing though I would say is if you have a older home especially 1990 or older start with the insulation. It is wildly cheaper to get and gets you part of the way there. Many power companies even run deals where they will help you buy it.
Oh and I guess another thing a heatpump has that an AC doesn't is a defrost controller board. You'd need one of those too.
I left my oil furnace intact and added 4 high wall units (each bedroom and living room) with 2 outdoor condenser/compressors.
I still use my oil furnace when it gets below 40.
Heat pumps have the benefits of both.
I spent some time trying to get a heat pump instead, but no one around here was familiar with them. I worried that if it failed service would be a pain.
"Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange."
"Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality."
"Air conditioners generally last longer than heat pumps because air conditioners only run when the air needs cooling, while heat pumps operate year-round."
This is what air conditioners do, too.
> "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality."
This is what heat pumps do, too.
These are two sentences that describe the same process, just in different words.
The last quote is potentially relevant: a heat pump is an air conditioner that can run in reverse to provide heat in the winter, so you're running it in both situations, and thus for more time.
I mean, it's good to force me out of my bubble, but maybe not right into the deep end where, and this is from about 8 hours ago, "heat pumps are no good in the Pacific Northwest because they use more electricity than resistive heating". The PNW: a climate renowned for two things: rain and mild temperatures, where heat pumps are no good. All I can do is nod and say "uh huh".
This was recently, btw, as in last month. I am still kind of shaking my head.