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Re:Power over fiber by BenoitP on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:43AM (#38865829)
> efficiently converts optical power to electrical power

Damn, I thought it was just a copper pair going along the fibers. I hope they provide some thick safety glasses with that.

I don't know if it'd come out as laser light, but 600 mW puts it into class 4 (eyes are damaged at a few 100m distance):

https://www.lasersafetyfacts.com/resources/FAA---visible-las...

Re:Power over fiber by ExoticPearTree on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:13AM (#38866045)
You know, in some places there are warning signs that read: Do not look into laser with remaining eye (https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1482f39eeb7fe2a2abc36...).

Anyway, common sense says you don't look with your unprotected eye through a fiber endpoint.

Re:Power over fiber by willis936 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:33AM (#38866196)
What does looking at a laser have to do with being safe from a class 4 laser? You could be two rooms over and be blinded by it if there are specular surfaces (which there usually are).
Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:18AM (#38867259)
You probably still shouldn't look into the laser with your remaining eye, though.
Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:49AM (#38866359)
You dont have to look at the laser at all, scattered beam can be dangerous as well. Note: class 4 lasers have no upper bound, they are just hazardous.
Re:Power over fiber by jahnu on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:16AM (#38868772)
Have these ever been weaponised?
Re:Power over fiber by solardev on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:31PM (#38869788)
Experimentally, sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_weapon?wprov=sfla1

Big pewpews require big power and it's not super practical yet

Re:Power over fiber by FuriouslyAdrift on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:28PM (#38872504)
Re:Power over fiber by solardev on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:04PM (#38874422)
Wikipedia says that one is just one unit on one ship (moved to another ship). Has it seen more widespread production since then?

The end of the article mentions another system, HELIOS, but didn't have much more information, and that was only two units, I think?

I believe you, just wondering how widespread these are relative to traditional projectile weapons.

Re:Power over fiber by FuriouslyAdrift on Friday January 05, 2024 @03:43PM (#38884646)
I think they are still in the testing phase but they are being deployed. The Marines do this all the time with all kinds of tech.

I've read that the main reason they like it is more about the incredible long range optics and not the laser, tbh.

Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:21PM (#38869669)
They are called direct energy weapons, more like a sci-fi, though.

It'd be a rather short range weapon, that's not easy to aim, require a line-of-sight, can't penetrate armor... or goggles, or fog/dust.

Re:Power over fiber by adrianN on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:14PM (#38870312)
I’m pretty sure high powered lasers penetrate goggles by just vaporizing them.
Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:36PM (#38870576)
True but how would you deploy high powered ones and keep line of sight?
Re:Power over fiber by paradox460 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @03:12PM (#38871641)
Use an X-Ray laser, as Larry Niven liked to use as a MacGuffin in a few of his stories
Re:Power over fiber by cyberax on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:56AM (#38869324)
It's against the Geneva Convention to use blinding weapons.
Re:Power over fiber by Snow_Falls on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:14PM (#38869575)
Has the Geneva convention ever stopped anyone? They can only arrest you if you lose the war, and people don't tend to plan for that.
Re:Power over fiber by solardev on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:33PM (#38869815)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_%28weapon%29?wprov=sfl...

They're "intended" to cause only temporary blindness

Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:29PM (#38869773)
The application would be more civil than war-alike, if it existed.
Re:Power over fiber by Snow_Falls on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:52PM (#38870065)
That's even harder to prosecute, pretty much no one is starting a war over what rulers are doing to their own citizens.
Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:51PM (#38874770)
Still need a major supplier both the laser emitters and esp. the optics. The weapons will be a lot more expensive compared to conventional weapons, or any anti-riot weaponry.

Aside the sci-fi vibe, I could imagine James Bond esque - still quite hard to use, has to aim for the eyes, scatter can cause collateral damage, doesn't work in fog, rain, etc.

Re:Power over fiber by cyberax on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:56PM (#38870816)
It has. That's why countries don't have real chemical weapons anymore. They are easy to make (for an industrialized country), but they don't provide any real advantage when both sides in a war have access to them. They just increase misery for everyone involved.

Blinding laser weapons are in the same category.

Re:Power over fiber by Snow_Falls on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:20PM (#38873102)
That's not really the Geneva convention though, chemicals weapons are just not effective for any actual warfare (aside from committing atrocities).
Re:Power over fiber by Grimblewald on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:28PM (#38873704)
I'm sorry but that is totally incorrect. Being able to clear out a building without damaging its capacity to provide cover is enormously useful.

Chemical weapons are incredibly useful, just awful.

Re:Power over fiber by nand4011 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:28PM (#38874151)
The argument I've seen against their usefulness is that they only work against static militaries that don't have NBC training, and a modern military can already defeat threats like that without paying the political cost of using them.

https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

Re:Power over fiber by cyberax on Friday January 05, 2024 @09:08PM (#38887650)
> Chemical weapons are incredibly useful

They're not. They're effective against an unprepared adversary. Any real military will have anti-chemical-weapons tactics and protection.

So this happens: you douse a building with a gas, and then walk inside and get shot by defenders in gas masks. And by the way, you also will have to wear a gas mask yourself.

Re:Power over fiber by chipsa on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:10AM (#38875930)
General rule of thumb: if it's been banned, it's useless for the signatories. Ex: chemical weapons, but also biological weapons, land mines, and cluster munitions. Note that land mines and cluster munitions are still actively being used, especially in Ukraine, and the countries that signed onto the ban largely got rid of those systems well before the ban was signed.
Re:Power over fiber by robertlagrant on Thursday January 04, 2024 @03:11PM (#38871640)
Sadly it's not against it to use killing weapons.
Re:Power over fiber by jnwatson on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:18PM (#38870377)
You betcha. I remember in the late 90s an anti sniper technology that could detect lenses at long distances and fire a laser at them.

The idea was to mess up scope optics, but human heads have lenses too. It was not Geneva Conventions friendly.

Re:Power over fiber by andruby on Thursday January 04, 2024 @02:42PM (#38871299)
I’d love to read more about this. Especially the part about the Geneva Convention.
Re:Power over fiber by cromulent on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:22PM (#38872443)
I’m guessing it was the Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_W...

Re:Power over fiber by jahnu on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:10AM (#38880616)
Wow that’s pretty amazing. Wonder why I’ve never seen it in a film or tv show.
Re:Power over fiber by xtiansimon on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:43AM (#38866295)
“Common sense”?

Never had one of those toys…

https://images.app.goo.gl/nFwVrEe26vkxxJWLA

Re:Power over fiber by onionisafruit on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:22AM (#38866100)
What does that mean? I read it as people who have already lost an eye shouldn’t risk their only remaining eye, but I think I’m missing something.
Re:Power over fiber by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:59AM (#38866457)
It's tongue-in-cheek, implying that many people working with the stuff already lost an eye to it.

It's part joke and part telling people "hey, this stuff is really dangerous, take it seriously or you'll lose an eye, or both". I don't think I've seen a single lab with high-powered lasers that didn't have a variant of this sign.

A similar popular sign for chemical labs is "Carol Never Wore Her Safety Goggles. Now She Doesn't Need Them", depicting a blind woman with sunglasses and a white cane. (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/carols-safety-goggles)

Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:41AM (#38867541)
I didn't know labs hang up such brutal memes. I am curious, though, why they made Carol a girl. No way chemical labs have a gender balance that, alone, would justify that decision. Never has portraying more women in STEM made me laugh this hard.
Re:Power over fiber by NickM on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:49AM (#38867644)
I am curious, though, why they made Carol a girl.

I guess depending on your political agenda they were either trying to be inclusive and promoting gender diversity in STEM, or they were being subtly misogynistic by implying that women aren't as careful as men.

Or maybe it was just arbitrary and maybe we don't have to read anything into it? But what do I know.

Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:53AM (#38867698)
> I guess depending on your political agenda they were either trying to be inclusive and promoting gender diversity in STEM, or they were being subtly misogynistic by implying that women aren't as careful as men.

Nah, I actually believe it's the first one. That's why it's so hilarious. The irony is what it insinuates about what happens to women in STEM.

Re:Power over fiber by sjsdaiuasgdia on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:34AM (#38868190)
Alternate idea: they weren't thinking about gender at all. Maybe that was the first hit for "blind person clipart" and they just went with the perceived gender of the person in the image.
Re:Power over fiber by ExoticPearTree on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:35AM (#38868203)
@jakderrida - it doesn't really matter what Carol's gender is, it is about the message. And on that note, you added zero value to the conversation.
Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:53PM (#38870089)
If it didn't matter, snowflakes like you wouldn't feel compelled to reply. All I did was mention it was humorous. If cringe were currency, then maybe your comment has value.
Re:Power over fiber by BobaFloutist on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:40AM (#38868280)
IIRC it came from a (mixed gender) series, and the one with Carol was just the one that people found funny enough that it stuck.
Re:Power over fiber by fullspectrumdev on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:18AM (#38867978)
The vast majority of the lab techs at both unis I attended were women.

Women outnumbered men in my chemistry course.

Re:Power over fiber by ta988 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:58AM (#38867751)
Depends on the domain. Biology labs are often composed of more women than men. Chemistry tend to be the opposite.

And they both use substances that would destroy your eyes.

Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:07AM (#38867858)
It's the irony that I find hilarious. I imagine them saying, "We should make it a woman to portray more women in STEM" while completely neglecting that she's a cautionary tale.
Re:Power over fiber by bipson on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:48AM (#38867638)
Inclusion goes both ways?

On a serious note: What are you on about?

Re:Power over fiber by jakderrida on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:00AM (#38867789)
> Inclusion goes both ways?

Yes, I agree. That's why making it a girl is so hilarious. As to why you're so offended that I find it hilarious, I honestly don't know what to tell you. It's funny for the same reason I'll refer to a hypothetical serial killer as "him" and follow by saying "or her, of course" to females as if I'm pandering. The joke is that they weren't offended to be excluded from being serial killers.

Re:Power over fiber by bipson on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:22AM (#38868835)
It's not hilarious.

And I'm not offended. I just have zero idea what your issue is. I never gave it any second thought what gender the person is. I don't care and I wonder what you're reading into it.

Re:Power over fiber by afandian on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:30AM (#38866168)
I think part of the joke is that damage is instantaneous so if you’re not prepared you can’t take evasive action.
Re:Power over fiber by I_Am_Nous on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:23AM (#38867318)
On top of this, we can't see 800 nm light. That's well into the Infrared band so "invisible lightsaber for your eyes" is an exaggeration, but helps visualize what you could be dealing with.
Re:Power over fiber by ttoinou on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:23AM (#38866107)
Yeah it's provocatively funny
Re:Power over fiber by onionisafruit on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:29AM (#38866161)
Thanks. I must be awake too early because it didn’t occur to me the sign is a joke.
Re:Power over fiber by thriftwy on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:50AM (#38867655)
The joke being is that's not a joke.
Re:Power over fiber by ttoinou on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:50PM (#38874755)
It's a quantum joke
Re:Power over fiber by redog on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:02AM (#38867052)
I think that sometimes when humor is added, in this way, it is to make you pause first.

At least in my mind when I encounter something oddly said/written my mind starts suggesting contexts and I can clearly "see" myself going blind by doing me like things.

Re:Power over fiber by marcosdumay on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:41AM (#38867538)
It emphasizes that you will only notice there's something dangerous around after you are already blind.

It's a very well worded warning, that spread because it's effective. The official warning saying that you must take precautions even if you don't see anything wrong just doesn't work well.

Re:Power over fiber by Bluecobra on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:12AM (#38867172)
Most fiber/transceivers you commonly find in a datacenter won’t cause eye damage:

https://www.nanog.org/news-stories/nanog-tv/top-talks/tutori...

(slides 79-84)

Re:Power over fiber by mikewarot on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:35AM (#38867471)
This is definitely not a most common transceiver, which is the point of all the commentary.

I'd refuse to buy this thing unless there was some national security reason for doing so, and then there would have to be interlocks on the room to de-energize it when anyone entered.

Re:Power over fiber by runjake on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:32AM (#38868967)
Disclaimer: I recommend you don't look at lasers as a standard practice.

For more context, an SFP+ 10G LR 10km module is Class 1 (completely harmless during normal use).

Same with a 100G LR4 type module.

The ZR type modules that run 100+km are also Class 1.

Pretty much any optical module you plug into a router or a switch is Class 1.

Where you should definitely be cautious is:

- Around optical amplifiers, where things can get into Class 2 and 3.

- DWDM setups where each module may be a Class 1, but the sum of their light adds up into something harmful.

Re:Power over fiber by gorlilla on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:46PM (#38874277)
They are class-1 only because the system is designed to not have any light visible during normal operation. Interlocks can be the only difference between a class-1 and a class-4 laser.
Re:Power over fiber by dpratt on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:14AM (#38867936)
"Danger: Not Only Will This Kill You, It Will Hurt The Whole Time You're Dying"
Re:Power over fiber by AriedK on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:34AM (#38868189)
I find these tremendously helpful https://i.etsystatic.com/13650636/r/il/617182/2062686717/il_... as popularized by AvE
Re:Power over fiber by hotpotamus on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:17AM (#38866068)
And if infrared, you won't even see it, and even reflections can be damaging to the eyes in theory.
Re:Power over fiber by kiicia on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:26AM (#38866709)
green lasers are scaring the heck out of me, each one of them is pumped IR laser and each reflection causes green beam and IR beam to diverge more and more
Re:Power over fiber by TheTxT on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:08AM (#38865994)
Maybe it can first check if something is on the other end before blasting full power
Re:Power over fiber by v7n on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:11AM (#38866026)
Something like what? An eye?
Re:Power over fiber by Gare on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:13AM (#38866046)
Something that responds to a protocol handshake?
Re:Power over fiber by onionisafruit on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:23AM (#38866110)
So a freemason
Re:Power over fiber by moffkalast on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:55AM (#38866425)
blinks in IEEE
Re:Power over fiber by publicmail on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:21AM (#38866095)
I think most high power optics do this already, right?
Re:Power over fiber by mikewarot on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:43AM (#38867565)
It does that, if I understand what I read about it a year ago.
Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:53AM (#38869289)
Yeah that's exactly how higher power (compared to 40km SFP modules) communication lasers work and why nobody wears laser goggles in a data center. Automatically turning the laser off when the other side stops responding is ancient tech
Re:Power over fiber by lexicality on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:24AM (#38866695)
Looking up the specs, the actual laser is 1.5W, the converted output power is 600mW.

The chart you linked suggests that it'll start fires if you accidentally break the fibre.

Re:Power over fiber by RCitronsBroker on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:40AM (#38867529)
I have several lasers in that category somewhere in the depths of the electronics stuff i accumulated from hoarding and reselling it for years, including a surplus fiber laser i auctioned myself into owning. They can certainly start fires under the right conditions, but that requires the fiber end to be polished VERY well, otherwise, the beam isn’t focused enough to deliver the needed energy, bundled up on one spot. Still way enough to make you blind before you notice tho, nothing to skimp on in any case.
Re:Power over fiber by TheDudeMan on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:30AM (#38868135)
Probably the power would stop when the fault is detected.
Re:Power over fiber by avsteele on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:33AM (#38866766)
800 nm (NIR) does present hazards. Most people can't se it until the intensity is very high, so you blink reflex doesn't protect you.

Having said that, it is probably highly divergent out of the fiber (depends on type). There's no risk beyond a few cm. Don't stick the fiber it up against your eye though.

To answer someone below its unlikely you could get burned except right at the fiber tip. You can stick your hand in a 1.5W beam as long as it isn't tightly focused.

Re:Power over fiber by rubidium on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:51AM (#38866948)
Agreed. A 40W 1550nm laser I used in grad school would burn post it notes readily and slowly burn black painted objects. It gave me a little burn once too (Was like touching a hot stove). 1.5W focused to 100 um would be a zinger, but at 4 mm would be not super dangerous thermally.

The main risk is you couldn’t see it so no blink reflex to help from even specular reflections.

Regardless, it would be reckless to expose this to people without eye protection.

Re:Power over fiber by weberer on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:32AM (#38867439)
I think your laser was 40mW. A 40W laser can engrave steel.
Re:Power over fiber by NietzscheanNull on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:00AM (#38867783)
Judging by the fact that they mentioned being in grad school at the time and that the laser was infrared, I imagine engraving steel isn't too far off from what they were using it for.
Re:Power over fiber by BenjiWiebe on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:04AM (#38867831)
But they mentioned it would slowly burn black painted objects.
Re:Power over fiber by gorlilla on Thursday January 04, 2024 @07:58PM (#38874380)
It's all about absorption spectrum. 40W at 10600nm will burn clean through a few mm of wood but could only maybe lightly etch brass and be utterly useless on aluminum. 40W of energy is being delivered, what happens to the thing it's being delivered to is entirely dependent on absorptive potential.
Re:Power over fiber by xxs on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:59AM (#38868543)
Agree on the 3 orders of magnitude difference. 40W soldering iron will inflate post-it notes, 40W laser steel/stone engraving/cutting area.
Re:Power over fiber by cycomanic on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:39PM (#38869887)
Depends highly on wavelength and pulse length. IIRC the vast majority of laser engraving lasers are pulsed (the cheaper ones are probably qswitched) so 40W actually gives you peak powers much higher than 40W.

Igniting something is actually quite different from cutting or engraving. Lasers are often so good at cutting because they don't deliver enough energy to set things on fire, but enough inatantaneous intensity to rip molecules apart (have a look at comparisons between femtosecond and nanosecond laser cutting for example).

Re:Power over fiber by rubidium on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:29PM (#38870509)
Beg your pardon, but I think I would know (PhD in experimental AMO physics).

It was one of these: https://www.ipgphotonics.com/en/products/lasers/low-power-cw...

Re:Power over fiber by avsteele on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:32PM (#38873733)
Guy's name is literally rubidium!
Re:Power over fiber by galangalalgol on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:32AM (#38867440)
Could a fiber break in the wall ignite the sheath? What if the Sheath broke as well and it is up against the cardboard backing of drywall? Worst case, cellulose insulation?
Re:Power over fiber by cycomanic on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:21PM (#38869661)
Cellulose insulation is in fact very flame retardent. But to your question yes if the broken fibre was stuck against something flammable it could slowly ignite it.
Re:Power over fiber by lightedman on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:41AM (#38866854)
"it is probably highly divergent out of the fiber"

Those of us in the styropyro discord have found that to almost never be the case. WEAR EYE PROTECTION AT ALL TIMES.

Re:Power over fiber by avsteele on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:36PM (#38873754)
What types of fibers are you talking about?
Re:Power over fiber by lightedman on Friday January 05, 2024 @09:12AM (#38879238)
Single-mode, multi-mode, etc. All fibers. Let's use my LASER marker at work as an example. Divergence in that fiber happens AFTER two things happen - first the photons need to leave the fiber,then they have to cross-over their 'hip' (where the collimated beam is tightest) THEN they diverge.

That's how fiber LASER markers work. I'm the operator of them where I work (I do everything outside of SMT - x-rays, LASER marking, high-voltage testing, etc.) Every LASER coming out of that fiber hits focal point about 2 feet past the fiber, where it begins to diverge.

Do not trust a LASER coming out of a fiber to be unfocused or not have enough power density to blind you. Period.

Re:Power over fiber by avsteele on Saturday January 06, 2024 @07:42AM (#38890965)
That's fine safety guidance but on the facts this is not correct.

For single and multimode fibers if it has a smaller focal spot some distance the fiber than at its tip you are talking about an assembly that includes the fiber plus an optic.

This is unambiguously true for single mode fibers. Multi mode one will diverge less

I could see there being some exception for a strange fiber which has a multi-emitter output, was nanostructured, tapered, etc..

Re:Power over fiber by lightedman on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:56AM (#38951065)
"For single and multimode fibers if it has a smaller focal spot some distance the fiber than at its tip you are talking about an assembly that includes the fiber plus an optic."

A properly-shaped and polished fiber tip is already the optic. That's literally how it's fed into the galvo in a fiber-marking LASER. I'm also responsible for the maintenance on all equipment in the facility so I've had those machines apart more than once.

Re:Power over fiber by no_wizard on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:29AM (#38867389)
When you say most people, are there in fact people that can see this at low intensity?
Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:46PM (#38872714)
Most (all?) IR lasers leak visible light too. Look into any 1310nm SFP module and you'll see red light even though 1310nm is well outside the visible range.

And no, this won't burn your eyes out. Despite what the clipboard warriors claim, a laser that's designed to couple to fiber will not magically focus itself at the exact distance where your eyes are located. Instead the beam will diverge as if the 1mW laser was a 1mW LED.

Re:Power over fiber by avsteele on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:35PM (#38873747)
I can see 780 nm (rubidium laser cooling light) specularly reflected from an index card at maybe 100 mW, if memory serves.
Re:Power over fiber by zrail on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:02AM (#38867805)
> a copper pair going along the fibers

I learned the other day that this is actually a thing one can buy. Direct bury hybrid fiber copper, up to looked like 2 OS2 strands and 2 12awg copper conductors. It's fantastically expensive but might be worth it for certain applications, like cameras that are beyond PoE distance limits and also don't have power available.

Re:Power over fiber by xoa on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:18AM (#38867987)
I wish this was a broadly supported and mass manufactured standard and the industry had gone more that way ages ago. Optical for data and still have a couple plain strands of copper (no need for shielding, twisted pairs etc) for power. There isn't any particular reason it should be fantastically expensive beyond lack of mass manufacturing and standards. Ah well.
Re:Power over fiber by zrail on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:31AM (#38868956)
Honestly it probably only helps installation costs, and not by much. There are no code issues with running standard direct bury copper in the same trench as direct bury fiber, nor are there any code issues (iirc, I am not an electrician) with running them in the same conduit even. Plain direct bury OS2 and 12/2 or 12/3 copper is dirt cheap and the fancy cable they use for generators that has 12/3 plus additional current sense conductors isn't that much more expensive.
Re:Power over fiber by Moto7451 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:41AM (#38868293)
With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull. The cable might be expensive but I’m sure the use case is great for when you don’t want to spend $10,000 on bringing a service trunk and meter to where your network equipment is being installed.
Re:Power over fiber by dwater on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:26AM (#38868893)
OM4 fiber is rated at 10GB up to 500m or ~1800ft, and the amount of current that 12AWG copper could carry at that distance with acceptable voltage drop is pretty low, so you'd probably still need to be stepping the voltage up and down on each end. I looked into this recently daydreaming about building a small office in the woods.
Re:Power over fiber by dylan604 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:50AM (#38868409)
Sounds perfect for long runs requiring repeaters/boosters or whatever kind of inline equipment that could be necessary
Re:Power over fiber by wongarsu on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:11AM (#38868698)
And power the network gear at the end of the fibre run at the same time
Re:Power over fiber by dylan604 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:16PM (#38869594)
Even for remote connections requiring a data line, seems like supplying power via solar/battery. Otherwise, you'll get some asshat that plugs in their microwave and/or kettle and ruins it for everyone else.
Re:Power over fiber by nick222226 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:02AM (#38868586)
Electricians hate this one trick!
Re:Power over fiber by quickthrowman on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:27PM (#38873693)
> With 12AWG, depending on the cable type and rating, you can bring 20-30A (90C rated) of power to go with your fiber in the same pull.

Wire size is calculated off the 75C column of the ampacity table (NEC 310.16) so #12 wire is only good for 25A.

The reason being, there are almost no circuit breakers rated for 90C, the terminals/lugs are only rated for 75C in nearly all cases.

Forum thread w discussion: https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/90-degree-or-75-degree.2...

Re:Power over fiber by Moto7451 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:55PM (#38874791)
For residential, yes, but commercial is a different story. Schneider will happily sell you 90c rated equipment beyond the wire. They provide excellent guidance: https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/0110db9901wir...

I don’t think anyone needs shared fiber and 12ga cable in a home setting anyway.

The NEC also defers to UL and similar bodies for installations being cleared so the complexities go beyond the basic NEC guidance, especially for the exotic stuff out there.

Re:Power over fiber by quickthrowman on Thursday January 04, 2024 @08:58PM (#38874815)
I’m a commercial electrical project manager and I’ve never seen a spec call for 90C rated breakers. I bought dozens of panelboards last year from multiple manufacturers, including Square D.

You also need equipment lugs/terminal blocks/wire nuts rated for 90C.

I’m not saying 90C rated parts don’t exist, it’s just uncommon enough that you select wire based on the 75C column by default, even in a commercial setting.

Re:Power over fiber by michaelt on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:30AM (#38868945)
> It's fantastically expensive

Right now you can buy 50m USB3 cables made of 'Active Optical Cable' which is a fiber data link with two copper wires for power.

Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr... - not cheap, but considering how few they probably sell and that you're getting a special custom type of cable, kinda affordable.

Re:Power over fiber by swores on Thursday January 04, 2024 @12:57PM (#38870131)
Thanks for sharing.

I can't quite explain it, but... having not known of the existence of such cables, and despite the fact that it's good I don't have a use for one since they're not exactly cheap, there's something about them that makes me want to buy one.

I've really no idea why, but I even spent a few minutes wondering if there's anything I've never done due to not having a cable like that, but didn't think of anything.

(And it's not like I'm a cable collector or enthusiast or anything like that, generally!)

Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:56PM (#38872832)
Move your desktop to the basement and use optical cables to connect your monitor and all the peripherals located in your room. This is one of the common use cases and it was popularized by Linus from LTT. He has optical Thunderbolt (PCIe and USB) at his desk and optical DisplayPort in several rooms. The latter allows screen casting without the usual compression artifacts, input lag, and low refresh rate that you get from shoving a 32gbps signal down a 1gbps pipe
Re:Power over fiber by swores on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:11PM (#38872995)
Thanks! At the moment I'm enjoying my gaming PC adding a little bit of warmth in my home office that anyway needs heating constantly during the winter anyway... but would be tempted to get the PC out of sight in the future.

Any ideas of reputable brands for optical display port (and miniDP) cables?

Did a quick search and the first version was £80 for 10m / £100 for 20m on Amazon from one of those shitty, random name Chinese "companies" (in this case called "ATZEBE), which wouldn't surprise me if it was actually just the cheapest DP cable of the right length they could find rather than the real deal. (Not that I'd trust buying any cable on Amazon, even one they claim is sold directly by a company like Apple, considering Amazon's co-mingling system leads to any time they claim "sold by x company" has for years actually meant "one or more of the stock we have for this item is sold by the company that its claiming to be made by, good luck hoping you get one of the legit ones".)

And thinking about the two options that user michaelt linked in the comment I replied to just above you:

> "Options start at ~$100 for 50m https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004105594973.html and prices go up to [£450 / $570 USD for 50m at:] https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/50m-hybr...

To what extent is the expensive one the equivalent of an audiophile getting a placebo effect from using overpriced audio cables that make no difference in a blind test, vs. it being the price needed for a good quality 50m optical/hybrid USB cable while the cheap one linked on AliExpress might either perform worse, last less long, or be an outright scam like those fake USB storage sticks that are hacked to tell the OS that they have more capacity than they actually do?

Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:49PM (#38873385)
AFAIK most optical cables are made in the same factory so it doesn't matter which one you buy. They also don't need controlled impedance like copper cables so it's pretty hard for an optical cable to not work
Re:Power over fiber by swores on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:56PM (#38873469)
So buying that second option (the Lindy link) is really just wasting hundreds of pounds with zero benefit, apart from shipping speed, compared to the cheap AliExpress option?
Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:22AM (#38877962)
FWIW, a 10m 5gbps optical USB cable is $70 in the US including 1-day shipping. Dunno why anyone would pay hundreds of pounds even with the euro/pound tax.

Also compare to data center hardware. A 10m 10gbps active optical cable is only $31 retail: https://www.fs.com/products/30895.html

Normally you'd buy optics and fiber (which is cheaper than copper ethernet cables of the same length) separately for data center use and in larger volume, but my point is that there's no expensive tech involved in these cables.

Re:Power over fiber by swores on Friday January 05, 2024 @09:48AM (#38879604)
Cool, thanks for the reply
Re:Power over fiber by zrail on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:34PM (#38870554)
I bought a set of optical HDMI cables for my TV. Not because it's a long run, although it is, but because they're significantly thinner and I had to get four of them through a pretty small conduit. They're pretty nice, although I think the cable part is just fiber and each end is powered by the device.
Re:Power over fiber by hinkley on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:38AM (#38869068)
There was a time they were suggesting structured cabling for new buildings, that ran power fiber and coax through the same ~1 inch cable. Because you didn’t know what you’d want and where you’d want it.
Re:Power over fiber by zrail on Thursday January 04, 2024 @01:41PM (#38870632)
Yep, I remember seeing a variant with 2x Cat5e, 2x coax, and fiber. Iirc the argument against them was that they were a pain to install in typical residential framed construction because the bend radius in reality was like 3 feet (probably exaggerated, but not by much).

Having now done retrofit Ethernet install in a 75 year old house, if I ever build a new house it's going to have low voltage conduit from attic or basement to every interior wall and one or more big conduits from attic to a single home run location, itself with a dedicated 20A circuit.

Re:Power over fiber by hinkley on Thursday January 04, 2024 @02:19PM (#38871067)
Every time I have to touch wiring I think there's someone out there who could get rich figuring out how to make it easier to edit the wiring in finished walls.

Though I do know there's a company out there that makes manufactured 2x6 stud (tstuds is one name) that's basically 2 3x2's with diagonal pins between them. Quieter, less thermal transfer, and cheaper to make high R outside walls since the cost scales faster with length than width. Snaking a new cable through an interior walls made of that stuff would just require your typical fiberglass pole, with little to no drilling.

Re:Power over fiber by amluto on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:35AM (#38868218)
That chart is for collimated lasers. There is nothing especially inherently dangerous about laser light, and 1.5W or so of light is common (your average household ceiling light is in that ballpark). A fiber break is a point source (more dangerous especially at very close range) and is a bit focused, but it’s not going to burn holes in your skin or cornea at any appreciable distance. If it’s a wavelength that penetrates to the retina, then maybe the fact that it’s a point source will make it more dangerous if it’s in focus.
Re:Power over fiber by hinkley on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:40AM (#38869098)
This is 35% efficient. 1.5W in and .54W out.

That’s not efficient in my book.

Re:Power over fiber by NavinF on Thursday January 04, 2024 @11:49AM (#38869233)
That's a matter of perspective. Are you comparing to copper or to other electrically isolated power transmission tech?

A typical LED is 40% efficient and a typical solar panel is ~20% efficient. A typical Qi charger is ~50% efficient. I stopped using cables for portable devices a few years ago and use magsafe instead which is supposedly has 75% efficiency due to perfect alignment of the coils, but that's still nowhere close to the ~100% you get from copper cables.

Re:Power over fiber by hinkley on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:05PM (#38872244)
I suppose if you're just running one of these, we are talking about 8 KWH per year wasted. There are devices in my home burning more standby power than that.

If you're running a whole cabinet of these then it's not the greatest.