I don't say this to sound dismissive, which I think is all too common in discussions like this.

If we're talking about aerobic exercise, you don't need to "form" anything. It's a monostructural movement. Buy a treadmill and jog on it for 20 minutes when you wake up. Buy a rower and do 5k every morning, or evening, or over lunch. Get a stationary bike and do 10 minutes on that whenever you remember to do it.

This isn't strength training which benefits from having an actual program to follow put together by someone who knows what they're doing. Just pick a thing that you can do for 20 minutes without wanting to kill yourself, and do that thing for 20 minutes a few times a week. The most important part (in what the kids today would call "my lived experience") is to push yourself hard, sweat a lot, and do it at least 3 or 4 times a week. More is going to be better, especially at the beginning to build a habit, but twice a week is just sporadic enough where it's too easy to miss one and 2 becomes 1 becomes "once every 4 weeks."

"Stable" also doesn't need to be the same amount of time at the same time of day on the same days every week.

You are describing forming a stable routine

I don't think GP meant "routine" as in an elaborate set of exercises, but rather the daily/weekly routine of doing any exercise at all.

Maybe. I'm more describing making this important enough to you that you start looking for places to slot it into your day. Yes, a routine will likely form out of that but I think it's secondary to getting you to want to do the thing, which is harder (at least for me).

> I'm more describing making this important enough to you that you start looking for places to slot it into your day

I get where you’re coming from, and I think you’re missing the point. Executive dysfunction (for me at least) means I can “want to do the thing” a LOT, heck I can even have the motivation, but getting my brain and body to actually do the damn thing can feel insurmountable. There are certainly ways to work with and around executive dysfunction, it’s just difficult that one of the key aspects of it is that it makes the act of executing feel incredibly difficult.

I am the same kind of person, and believe me, it's a lost battle to try to explain how impossible it is to get to do something every day. People who are normal in that sense will never understand. Their concept of laziness or of that "ah, it's going to be hard to get on that treadmill today" feeling is completely different from ours. Their brains are wired differently.

Just read the answer below

> The only thing ever stopping you from going out the door and running is putting on shoes and shorts, its easy to form a habit!

For people like us, this is akin to "if you are depressed, just cheer up!". It's ridiculous, bordering on the offensive.

Yep I replied to that one too lol. My roommate and I listened to a podcast episode the other day about the challenges of executive dysfunction and ADHD and it was validating to say the least. The podcast is called Struggle Care with KC Davis

One approach is to put your body on auto-pilot. Just do the thing for 5 minutes or whatever, without consideration for whether you want to or not. The desire and will will typically develop over time.

Get an easy win.

If I could put my body on auto pilot in the way that I want to I’d be golden. Do I sit in front of my computer for hours at a time rewriting code I don’t need to rewrite? Sure. Do I knit and listen to the same podcast until I’m falling asleep? Yep. Can I autopilot myself into walking once a day? Nahhhh.

I do get out to walk occasionally, and I absolutely love it, and nothing about that makes it “easy” to turn into a habit. I’m working on it, but it’s a slow process. The thing with executive dysfunction is that the desire and will are often there, they just aren’t making the call.

For me, my executive dysfunction makes one part MUCH more difficult than the rest: transitioning from one thing to another (especially if I have negative emotions attached to the other thing).

The 5 minutes (or even 30-60 minutes) is the EASY part. I have no problem with that. It's my brain screaming at me with every ounce of its energy that the effort of stopping what I am doing and starting something else is insurmountable. The length of the thing is mostly irrelevant.

Meditation may help. Taking advantage of windows of time when your feelings may be more neutral may help. Discarding judgemental thoughts in favor of more neutral thoughts may help.

It's a battle for most people, some more than others.

As someone who's been there, and now leads an active lifestyle, I'd say it's best to avoid looking at things as black and white. The ability to build habits is a skill you can learn, just as you can learn to ride a bike, program a computer, or cook a meal. It comes more or less naturally for different people, but if you can a fixed mindset instead of a growth mindset, it won't come at all.

One lever I used was self hatred. Instead of babying myself, I decided I was pathetic and worthless if I couldn't even manage to exert myself for 10 minutes every day. Maybe not a psychologically healthy viewpoint in the long term, but it creates the leverage I needed to get out of that dark place.

Sometimes, emotional leverage helps. I sometimes use anger at perceived slights. I think it's OK if you leave it on the exercise bike or treadmill and don't carry it through your day.

Yep - executive dysfunction is... difficult, you short circuit your mind in a strange loop of fighting yourself. It's like writers block or when you try to go to sleep but can't and the harder you try the harder it feels. So it's... Difficult to even do things, even when you DO want to (I have been meaning to play solo board games I bought but ... just can't... My ADHD has gotten far worse over the years compared to my youth). I think people who don't have to deal with it don't understand what it's like.

That sounds rough! I’ve only been diagnosed for a few years so it’s nice to have a label to the way my brain has worked since forever. The exercise one is hard to get going though I’ve done some here and there, weirdly one of the hardest ones for me is allowing myself to start a new tv show by myself. Can’t do it. Doesn’t matter how hyped I am, my brain’s like “nope, not allowed”. Meat bags is weird

This is a misunderstanding of what executive dysfunction means; somebody with executive function problems is not going to buy a treadmill much less use it every day.

How about a walk around the block once a month?

I struggle with executive dysfunction; when people describe a more aggressive routine than I could manage, I just mentally translate the numbers and level of consistency into what's achievable rather than berate them. Their point was: start with what's possible for you and go from there, because you don't need to achieve a certain threshold of activity or knowledge for the exercise to benefit you.

Executive dysfunction is different for everybody. I'm sure GP's comment is well intended, but advice in the form of "Just go DO the thing even if it's small" is about as helpful as telling a depressed person "Have you tried smiling?".

Because it varies, there’s even less reason to be upset. You know there are people whose dysfunction looks more like perfectionism or overplanning and the advice is meant for them. You understand that variance in individual cases means that not every general discussion will match yours.

I mean it can be as simple as playing Pokemon Go.

Anything that gets your activity up will help. Lots of low intensity stuff is probably even more valuable than 20 minutes of moderate effort.

I tried a rower for the first time a couple days ago, and found immediate relief from ADHD-like symptoms that lasts a few hours.

I'm not diagnosed, but have pretty severe trouble getting into a task-oriented mode, so much that dishes go unwashed, and my home is a mess. I feel the mess wearing away at me, but just can't deal with it. I'm not overly busy or tired, just procrastinating.

After 5 minutes on the rower my mood drastically improved and I was much more productive than usual, and the effect lasted about 3 hours. I've had a few more sessions since then with similar effects.

Also, it's a little spooky how often a subject comes on my radar, and then a few days later the subject surfaces on HN. Feels too frequent for it to be a coincidence.

Exercise definitely helps my symptoms, but it's an absolute roll of the dice whether it's immediate and significant, or just tires me out. Really I need to keep up with a few times a week for at least a month to reap the benefits.

> The most important part (in what the kids today would call "my lived experience") is to push yourself hard, sweat a lot, and do it at least 3 or 4 times a week.

I wouldn't even say you need to push yourself hard. Getting yourself into 120-150 bpm for 30-60 minutes 3x per week will get you most of the benefits.

> Buy a treadmill

Have one. Plus chin up bar, and there's always bodyweight.

> and jog on it for 20 minutes when you wake up.

That's a routine.

> Whenever you remember to do it.

That's more akin to how my brain functions. But "when I remember" (/ have energy/motivation) is a huuge variable I struggle with.

I understand you mean well but this is a thing I've struggled with for years. It tends to be boom or bust. I can go months with going to the gym regularly and it helps, then things get chaotic and it all falls apart, and it's exceptionally hard to restart, probably because of exactly such an executive deficit such exercise would help with.

Consider biking short distances if possible. Perhaps start with an ebike if your fitness level demands it. Since I've gotten fairly fit, I will outpace cars in city centers during busy times since I am not as influenced by traffic. Exercise becomes a time savings.

I found that using a calendar or some kind of tool where I can add a mark every time I do something I want to form an habit of, it helped. Especially with the fact that I also add my mark even if it's only 5 minutes. So it reduces the pressure tremendously if I fail, or change my mind.

I moved from being mostly sedentary to being able to run 10km, swimming regularly, joining a field hockey team, doing archery. I also do hiit 3 times a week. Still my schedule is fucking chaotic, so beside the field hockey training which is on a fixed date, the other activities are done at, let's say, interesting and random time.

The hardest part of bootstrapping a routine with executive function problems is getting on medication to fix the executive function problems

Medication doesn't fix them though. It makes it possible for them to /be/ fixed -- but a lifetime of ingrained habit from when it was much more challenging is still a mountain to overcome.

An unstable execise rutine is better than no exercise routine.

I know what you mean, but I have found the best thing is just, simply, running. You can reduce the friction getting from A to B a lot if from the beginning you resolve to be minimalist about it. Just buy shoes (don't think too much about it, go to running store and get fitted) and shorts, and... thats it. Don't try to get any other products, and don't even worry too much about how you do it. Just run, and measure your runs by time and not distance.

The only thing ever stopping you from going out the door and running is putting on shoes and shorts, its easy to form a habit!

Only bad part is you get depressed when you don't get to run.

> I know what you mean

I’m not sure that you do, because

> The only thing ever stopping you from going out the door and running is putting on shoes and shorts, its easy to form a habit!

feels very invalidating, as someone who struggles with an executive dysfunction disorder.

I don't think they were talking to you specifically. They're probably just talking from their perspective, and don't have the knowledge of where you're at.

If you feel invalidated, those are your feelings coming from inside you, not something they planted in you. Perhaps it's a sign that you have things you need to work on.

They were responding to someone who started off saying they’re dealing with executive dysfunction. I do not know exactly how it affects GP, but I do know that typically it creates a crappy system of inaction despite intention, motivation, etc. And yes, I indeed have things I’m working on.

Oh geez I am so sorry. Truly. I guess I had a false notion that "executive dysfunction" was a softer term/catch-all for various problems around procrastination/focus, not something that is diagnosed explicitly such that you could feel this invalidation. Really sorry. I will edit accordingly.

It’s something that comes along with things like ADHD (that’s where I experience it). It just makes tackling sometimes simple seeming things feel insurmountable. It’s not a constant, and it effects everyone who experiences it differently. For me, self-care in some regards feels like an uphill battle (particularly maintaining dental hygiene and exercise - yaaaaay!). There are things I can do to make those things more accessible and “doable”, yet forming a routine and sticking to it is haaaaaaaard.

And I appreciate your response - the invalidating part was just that it’s “easy” to start a running routine with just shoes and shorts. It probably is for most people, and for me the shoes would sit there as a reminder of an investment in myself that I can not seem bring myself to take advantage of more than once or twice a year.

This may work for some people, but not others. For me, nothing is as unpleasant as running. Back when I tried to forcd myself to do it as part of my gym routine, I was actively dreading it the moment I woke up, after a week or two. It took all my willpower every time to run another minute, another 100m, etc. No other exercise I tried is as unpleasant and demotivating to me.

This is usually the side effect of people running too fast. Slow it down- even if you feel like speed walkers can pass you.

Or you actually hate running.

Yes, this is super important! And, at least initially, stopping to walk is perfectly good too. Whatever pace and time it takes to not feel bad during or at the end of the run is what you should go for.

And you will be surprised how quickly you scale from wherever you begin.

Tried slow running, tried sprint+walk cycles, tried various combinations. Tried both treadmills and running outside. The sensation of being out of breath is just very unpleasant to me, and you always end up out of breath if doing any kind of running for more than a few minutes.

Sprinting was the least unpleasant actually, but only for a short while for the first time and only once/day.

Thankfully strength training is much more enjoyable, as is walking, so I'm relying on this combination. Plus some swimming occasionally.

I can’t articulate this as a how-to, but I’ve found that I can occasionally rewrite some low-level assumptions about myself in such a way that let me accomplish stuff. Like I convinced myself that working out every day isn’t a choice, it’s a default. It’s how I am. This means that the choice is to not work out, and that’s kind of lame, so no choice == working out.

Atomic Habits phrases this more or less as telling yourself e.g. "you are a runner" and then every time you could work out is an opportunity to prove it to yourself.

This trick has helped me a lot. I think to myself "I'm the type of person that . . . " And it helps overcome the mental anguish of should I or shouldn't I. "I'm the type of person that works out everyday," and the decision has already been made.

Read this book: Atomic Habits

I did, and I could find no reward more appealing than "not doing that".

I found setting a really low Google Fit step goal and just trying to meet that daily goal 6/7 days a week was really helpful in just getting a basic foothold. And that basic foothold is kind of necessary when you're doing something you don't immediately want to do.

After that, I came up with fun ways to meet that goal, like specific paths I might take or things I might do. It feels much less like work if there's some sort of reward along the way, like a coffee or something.

> If only the executive dysfunction didn't mess with my ability to form any kind of stable exercise routine.

It's not actually about any difficulty in establishing a stable routine. It'd be very easy for almost anyone to maintain a routine of eating snacks and watching Youtube for 20 minutes per day.

The root issue is we've become conditioned to avoid discomfort. Collectively our mental fortitude relatively weak in this area. Engaging in an activity which requires enduring discomfort will be strongly avoided even if the benefits are clear. We need to figure out how to strengthen our mindset.

Exercise is medicine! And requires exertion and discomfort.

> It's not actually about any difficulty in establishing a stable routine. It'd be very easy for most on here to maintain a routine of eating snacks and watching Youtube for 20 minutes per day.

From GP's executive dysfunction reference I am assuming something like ADHD, and...you'd be surprised.

Respectfully, you seem likely to not have ADHD. If I had "snacks and Youtube" on my calendar for 20 minutes every day, I would spend the preceding hour stressing about what video I would watch on a given day, and struggle to make myself go down to the kitchen to grab a snack when the time came. It's not even the discomfort, I enjoy exercise, it's overcoming the activation energy to get started.

Executive dysfunction is fundamentally different from laziness in a way that a lot of people have trouble grasping.

Fair enough!

Maybe the Youtube and snacks example was a bit misleading in that perspective. In my head exercise is in the same category of routine as brushing your teeth, showering, getting dressed, and feeding yourself. If one struggles with those on a daily basis then I agree that's a whole different issue. Putting a time slot for exercise on the calendar may work for some but in my view it's a more fundamental part of living.

Have you tried approaching it with the idea that you don’t have to form a stable routine? The next time you’re sitting around with >20 minutes to kill, go for a run instead of doing social media/HN/Netflix/whatever it is you might do to kill time. If you found you woke up an hour early and can’t get back to sleep, go for a run. Maybe it’ll eventually lead to a routine, but maybe it won’t and that’s fine, too, you’re not trying to win a marathon. Running once is better than never, so no need to put pressure on yourself to form a stable routine.

This is how I managed to get weight lifting into my daily life. Worked for nearly a year. After which ?something? happened and now I've not done it in years.

ADHD is a fickle mistress.

adhd sucks - i bought one of these pedal boxes so I could exercise while watching tv (i know, better than nothing though) and it was great until I moved it out of the way, now I can't see it I don't do it, and I remember when I'm not in front of it, think "oh i'll put it back" and then instantly forget.