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Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by echelon on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @07:58PM (#38199500)
> As a young girl, Alice (not her real name) logged on to the popular live video chat website, Omegle, and was randomly paired with a paedophile, who coerced her into becoming a digital sex slave. Nearly 10 years later the young American is suing Omegle in a landmark case that could pave the way for a wave of lawsuits against other social platforms.

This is fucked. We shouldn't have to put safety padding on everything as a stand-in for something parents are supposed to do, ie. being responsible for their brood.

Should we put inflatable balloons around people because cars and high velocity objects exist that we can collide with?

Should we ban kitchen knives because they're sharp?

Asphyxiation is the leading method of teen suicide. Should we stop selling plastic, rope, and anything that fits around a neck and/or head?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by JSavageOne on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:16PM (#38199660)
It's horrible that this happened and obviously I'm glad the pedophile is in jail, but how exactly was she "coerced"? And how is any of this Omegle's fault?
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by johntiger1 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:24PM (#38199714)
Yeah it's unfortunate, but I don't think Omegle is exactly at fault here. Perhaps we should consider the abuser to be the one at fault?
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by shadowgovt on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:40PM (#38199879)
[delayed]
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by willsmith72 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:27PM (#38199752)
> how exactly was she "coerced"?

Yeah no this is a terrible take. She was coerced by being an 11 year old talking to a grown adult. How do you think she was coerced?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:37PM (#38199849)
Usually being coerced would involve some amount of coercion.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by JSavageOne on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:42PM (#38199906)
Well that's the question I'm asking, and you didn't answer the question

> coerce - persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.

What was the threat? Why did she oblige? Why didn't she just block him?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by stalinford on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:25PM (#38200289)
This was the threat: "Once he had coerced Alice into sending intimate images, Fordyce convinced her that she was complicit in making and sharing child sexual abuse material. Fearing arrest, she kept everything secret from her family and friends."

And it is a pretty credible threat: https://slate.com/technology/2019/08/maryland-sk-court-case-... https://www.wnyc.org/story/9114-sexting-teens-legal-straits-...

Curiously enough, no one even thinks of holding the government/legal system responsible.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by JSavageOne on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @11:52PM (#38201314)
Punishing minors for "distributing child pornography" over content of themselves sent in private is completely outrageous. Had you not linked those sources there's no way I'd believe our justice system would be so absurdly inept.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by defrost on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:28PM (#38200312)
It's remarkably easy to read online from court transcripts and various newspaper reports the Standard Operating Procedures of older people coercing young children online, it starts out with a bit of fun and then often turns to embarrassing blackmail threats and leverage to gain more material.

The question is why are you demanding to have this repeated yet again?

Are you unable to find it online to answer your own question, do you need a playbook for the sexual exploitation of children?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by JSavageOne on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:00AM (#38201347)
Asking for an explanation as to which part made it "coercion" means I "need a playbook for the sexual exploitation of children?" Wtf kind of leap of logic is that? The article didn't provide any explanation as to how it was coercion, hence the question, which you never answered.

So if I'm reading an article about a crime case and the article lacks details, that means I'm "looking for a playbook to commit that crime?" Give me a break.

Maybe you're a pedophile trying to hide your playbook for sexual exploitation of children? See how easy it is to make insulting, baseless accusations?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by Crespyl on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:13PM (#38200180)
Children, being children, are often gullible and easily manipulated, especially by someone practiced in the matter.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by JSavageOne on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:04AM (#38201370)
Yes but coercion implies a threat.

If the guy was in another country, it's hard for me to imagine how she became a "digital sex slave" (how the article refers it) instead of just blocking the guy. Naturally I'd imagine there was some kind of blackmail for her to comply, but the article doesn't mention anything like that.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by buffington on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:33AM (#38201540)
It's hard for you to imagine, and I'm going out on a bit of a limb here, because you're not a ten year old girl.

I've been the parent of a ten year old girl, and can say with confidence that it's within the realm of possibility that an adult could manipulate a child in ways that ultimately would make that child afraid, if not utterly terrified, to be disobedient.

You scraping and digging through the comments here imploring to know about how she was coerced suggests to me that what you're really looking for is a justification to blame the ten year old girl. "coercion implies a threat" implies that with no evidence of a threat, the girl must have played along. She must have liked it. That's the vibe you give as you dig in and keep demanding people prove there was a threat. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that vibe.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by savingsPossible on Thursday November 09, 2023 @10:53AM (#38206565)
Your implied accusation is totally baseless.

I am just logging a protest, I have absolutely no interest in discussing it.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by buffington on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:10PM (#38212722)
Protest warranted.

I apologize that you felt that it was an accusation. I could have been more tactful in expressing what my impressions were of your probing. I'm happy to be wrong.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by Tao3300 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:34AM (#38201551)
The blackmail was threatening her into thinking she'd be in legal trouble too. That's not true, but a terrified child isn't exactly running an optimal risk calculus. Even without that the content itself is blackmail material.

How was she coerced? Who knows. I'll take a guess and say she was probably tricked at first into thinking he was someone else. Threatened after that.

(EDIT: and for chrissakes get identifiable information out of your user profile if you're going to argue this hard about something like this! Internet 101, man!)

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by bobsmooth on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:42PM (#38199905)
It's easier to blame Omegle than society or her parents failing to educate her about the dangers of the internet.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by wolverine876 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:02PM (#38199542)
We do implement many things that protect people, sometimes children in particular. They aren't perfect, but they can prevent a lot of damage.

The question, as usual, isn't all or nothing. It's what can we do that will meet all the criteria as best possible: not infringe on freedoms, reduce harm, be affordable, etc.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by bogota on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:08PM (#38199596)
100% agree i think the bigger issue is at least in the US and many other countries we have lost all faith that the people making those choices will do so in a responsible or ethical manner.

Essentially we lost faith in the system and I don’t think it will ever come back. So where do we go from here?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by wolverine876 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:10PM (#38199616)
> Essentially we lost faith in the system and I don’t think it will ever come back. So where do we go from here?

A bit extreme? It will come back if you choose it, if you do it. The despair, as I posted, is trendy but it's absurd - the most ridiculous, counterproductive philosophical trend I can imagine. Stop philosophizing and just start doing!

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by bogota on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:43PM (#38199917)
I don’t think im being extreme. That is the way I see it. That is the way the various media outlets portray it. And that is the rhetoric that has taken over politics.

What should I do? I have no one I want to vote for and honestly I don’t care enough to do it myself. At this point it’s just figuring out how you can profit off this and get your own piece of land to check out on.

I don’t find this to be depressing it’s just what I see as facts.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by wolverine876 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @11:11PM (#38201096)
> I don’t find this to be depressing

We'd have to redefine depressing to exclude that post. Look at all the ways it advocates quitting; it's impressive in a way.

> That is the way the various media outlets portray it. And that is the rhetoric that has taken over politics.

Do you think that makes it true? That seems to support my claim that it's trendy, and people repeating these things because others say it are by definition following a trend.

I've seen many trends come and go, but this one - despair as a trend - is the dumbest.

Also, who is going to get anything done? We aren't children; our parents won't fix things if we don't do it. We'd better get to work, like prior generations who sacrificed and built so much. What will you tell your grandkids - 'well, I just quit; it was the fashionable thing to do.'

Have you considered this trend is encouraged by people who don't want you getting in their way? You are handing all your power to them.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by afavour on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:12PM (#38199623)
> Should we put inflatable balloons around people because cars and high velocity objects exist that we can collide with?

You’re talking in hyperbole but… yeah, we do a ton of work to make roads safer than they might otherwise be. What purpose do you think pedestrian crossings serve?

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by lazide on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:52PM (#38199999)
To make the bodies easier to collect? (/s kinda)
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by CrimsonChapulin on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:57PM (#38200050)
In the US, they serve to shift blame from distracted drivers for running someone over sadly (crappy j-walking laws) in addition to the normal use.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by ajsnigrutin on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @08:26PM (#38199742)
Yep.

If the pedo found her at a walmart, would she sue walmart too?

Weird people, pedos, criminals are everywhere.... parents somehow teach about "stranger-danger" offline but not online, and then blame platforms their kids use, even though they are too young to use them in the first place.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by jhallenworld on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:17PM (#38200215)
>If the pedo found her at a walmart, would she sue walmart too?

Well, yes! A different example: with few exceptions (gun manufacturers), when people die everybody even remotely involved gets sued. Examples: Station Nightclub fire, Surfside condominium collapse..

In the case of a pedo at Walmart I could imagine: "Didn't the staff notice the guy dragging the girl out of the store? Why didn't they get involved?" Walmart has much more money than the pedo.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by Dylan16807 on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @11:50PM (#38201299)
> Didn't the staff notice

If you want a proper Walmart analogy then you should stick the child in a remote part of a vast parking lot, so that there's no reason to expect the staff to notice.

And at that point the case seems too weak to try.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by nrb on Thursday November 09, 2023 @10:23AM (#38206133)
A more accurate analogy would be if they ushered the child into a backroom where a stranger was seated across from them with a glass divider between them and then they left the room. This is the whole point of Omeagle, to facilitate these interactions. Would it unsettle anyone if Walmart were doing that, and would they be legally responsible for whatever happens in there?
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by Dylan16807 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:39PM (#38212946)
That still involves humans actually seeing the people being paired up. It's not more accurate.

And if Walmart had a thousand anonymous meeting rooms it wouldn't be Walmart anymore, so the analogy falls apart at that point.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by troupe on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:39PM (#38200413)
Probably should sue whoever manufactured the device, the ISP, and definitely whoever provided her with the device and paid for her internet access.
Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by dragonwriter on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:49PM (#38200490)
> If the pedo found her at a walmart, would she sue Walmart too?

Yes, meatspace public venues used by traffickers are frequently sued for enabling the trafficking [0], its not something unique to cyberspace venues.

[0] e.g., https://guestban.com/2023/07/12/the-unseen-side-of-luxury-ho...

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by buffington on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:19AM (#38201452)
Walmart doesn't invite people of all ages to hang out in a private room together, with no supervision, no rules, no limits.

Parents tend to assume that "the internet" is regulated, somehow, whether by laws or market pressures. The thinking goes something like "Instagram is safe, right, because how could it not be? It's used by so many people, and if it could harm our kids, how would it be allowed to exist?" - right or wrong, people expect platforms to be held to some standard, and, right or wrong, put trust in the platforms to meet their expectations of safety.

The thing about Omegle was that it very much was the private room scenario I described above. I left out the part that made the room "safe" - the eject button. But persuasive people can persuade other people, especially children, to avoid that eject button, and while that only happened to some of the 74 million people using the site, it happened to people. And for those it happened to, those encounters wouldn't haven't happened without Omegle's help.

If you don't believe that, consider all those commenting here about how unique and special Omegle was for people who were good to one another. There's, thankfully, a lot of those comments.

But both things can be true, and were true when Omegle was operating. With 74 million people using it, the smallest of fractions of a percent still represent more than zero people experiencing harm that Omegle enabled.

The parents blame the platforms because the platforms enabled the harm.

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by Izkata on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @09:43PM (#38200444)
> Should we ban kitchen knives because they're sharp?

How about spoons? https://nypost.com/2019/05/16/police-station-mocked-for-phot...

Re:Omegle founder shuts down site forever? by jodrellblank on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @10:18PM (#38200730)
> "Should we ban kitchen knives because they're sharp?"

We do in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives "It’s illegal to: use any knife or weapon in a threatening way, carry most knives or any weapons in public without a ‘good reason’, sell most knives or any weapons to anyone under the age of 18." - And yes that includes kitchen knives because there's a callout - "In Scotland, you’re allowed to sell 16 and 17 year olds cutlery and kitchen knives."

> "Asphyxiation is the leading method of teen suicide. Should we stop selling plastic, rope, and anything that fits around a neck and/or head?"

We regulate them or have standards around them[3]: "The Toy Safety Directive, BS EN 71-1, raises attention to plastic bags and plastic sheets. It specifies bags larger than 380mm opening circumference and having a drawstring closure must be made of a material which is permeable to air. Except where application requires airtight sealing, all bags are to be perforated with holes of 4mm diameter minimum, spaced on 30mm grid. Bags for child appealing products and toys must have a minimum of four holes; other bags to have a minimum of two holes".

Your stance "we shouldn't have to do things about dangers" is silly, we do a lot of things to reduce risks in a lot of areas. Learning from other people's tragedies and trying to safeguard others from having to go through them is one of the long-running threads of civilised society.

Should we restrict electric wiring options in houses because electrocution and fires are a thing? Yes. Should we restrict food production options because salmonella is a thing? Yes. Should we have building codes because shoddy buildings fall down and kill people? Yes. Should we have laws about lead and carcinogens and things in products? Yes. Should cars have to meet crash test safety conditions? Yes. etc. etc.

> "Should we put inflatable balloons around people because cars and high velocity objects exist that we can collide with?"

We do; drivers are surrounded by inflatable airbags. [rant] Look at the social messaging around bike helmets. You never see people telling runners to wear a helmet in case they suddenly come upon a head injury. But take say YouTuber Tom Stanton who makes unusual engineering projects, including a flywheel bike[1] which he rode at walking pace down an empty country lane, and in his next bike video, a homemade supercapacitor bike[2] he's wearing a a helmet because of all the flack he got in the comments on the earlier one.

The point is not whether helmets prevent against brain damage in certain situations, the point is what situations are casual everyday recreational cyclists getting into where they risk brain damage? And the answer is cars. And the social messaging for helmet wearing is to shift blame from car drivers hitting cyclists to cyclists "not taking safety precautions".

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gahKxbwUcYw

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_f8Q2_Q_J0

[3] https://qualityinspired.co.uk/2020/03/suffocation-warning-re...